Thomas Lorenz on Brief nach Berlin, lowering barriers to participation & open-source civic tech

Alessandro Oppo: I actually developed the project, out of the idea of annoying my mom,

Alessandro Oppo: who was always complaining about politics in our hometown, and,

Alessandro Oppo: I was like, I'm the wrong person to address. Talk to a member of parliament, and she had so many.

Alessandro Oppo: To me it was excuses,

Alessandro Oppo: so she didn't quite tell me one argument that was valid in my opinion, and I say,

Alessandro Oppo: okay, I think a lot of people struggle with this because they want to address politics, but they don't dare to for

whatever reason. Welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator podcast, and our guest of today is Thomas Lawrence.

Thomas Lorenz: And so thank you a lot, Thomas, for your time.

Alessandro Oppo: Grazie Perlivito.

Alessandro Oppo: Hi, Alessandro.

Thomas Lorenz: And

Thomas Lorenz: would you like to tell us something about you?

Alessandro Oppo: I mean, there's a lot to tell, but my most recent project, I will focus on that most.

Alessandro Oppo: So I'm based in Germany. I used to live in in Bologna as well like Alessandro, so I speak a few words

of Italian.

Alessandro Oppo: But recently, I have developed a project

Alessandro Oppo: here in Germany. It's called Brief Nach Berlin, like letter to parliament pretty much,

Alessandro Oppo: and

Alessandro Oppo: it helps people like you and me, citizens,

Alessandro Oppo: to

Alessandro Oppo: formulate

Alessandro Oppo: a concern that they have or like a matter of interest and address it to their letter

Alessandro Oppo: to to their member of parliament, be it in Berlin or at their state level or even in their local commune level.

Alessandro Oppo: And, yeah, I built, a little AI based tool, which is entirely based in in Europe,

Alessandro Oppo: to

Alessandro Oppo: make the best letter, and then also I

Alessandro Oppo: kick my,

Alessandro Oppo: my users in the ass to actually write it by hand. So they also have some sort of

Alessandro Oppo: democratic feeling, and it also surpasses

Alessandro Oppo: the entire written and email

Alessandro Oppo: stack of letters

Alessandro Oppo: on the parliament's desk

Alessandro Oppo: because it it shows that you're more engaged, and I try to use that analog way.

Thomas Lorenz: And I saw that you also have a T shirt.

Thomas Lorenz: Yes.

Alessandro Oppo: No. I recently made a T shirt, and I probably have to wear it. Yeah. Exactly.

Thomas Lorenz: Thank you. So the project is becoming serious. I know you told me that it started as a small

Thomas Lorenz: project.

Alessandro Oppo: Yes. Exactly. It started, three and a half months ago, maybe four by now, more or less.

Alessandro Oppo: And I actually developed the project, out of the idea of annoying my mom, who was always complaining about politics in our

hometown, and,

Alessandro Oppo: I was like, I'm the wrong person to address. Talk to a member of parliament, and she had so many

Alessandro Oppo: to me, it was excuses,

Alessandro Oppo: so she didn't quite tell me one argument that was valid in my opinion, and I say, okay. I think a lot

of people struggle with this because they want to address politics, but they don't dare to for whatever reason.

Alessandro Oppo: So,

Alessandro Oppo: I worked at a company that was working with AI to build a product

Alessandro Oppo: and software,

Alessandro Oppo: and coming from a political science background, I said I will develop

Alessandro Oppo: a small tool that helps you figure out who you have to write your concern to,

Alessandro Oppo: like who's the most eligible person to actually read the concern and who's able to change it. I find the address, I

help you formulate the letter out of like two lines of what you want to complain about, And I told my mom,

when I develop it, you have to write it by hand,

Alessandro Oppo: and she gave me a handshake. She did it, and she, like three or four weeks later, she got called by a

member, of parliament office,

Alessandro Oppo: and she even got visited by the people, and they entirely solved her matter. And now my mom is like a big,

how do you say, democracy

Alessandro Oppo: multiplier

Alessandro Oppo: in my hometown,

Alessandro Oppo: and I said, I have to make this bigger. So that was like

Alessandro Oppo: three or four months ago,

Alessandro Oppo: and by

Alessandro Oppo: today, it's almost 2,400

Alessandro Oppo: people who have used the tool,

Alessandro Oppo: and it's it's growing steadily.

Alessandro Oppo: I've been in some newspapers,

Alessandro Oppo: talked to a lot of people, and, yeah, tried to spread the news also

Alessandro Oppo: in Europe. So, I'm entirely open source and people can double check it. I would like this

Alessandro Oppo: tool, which is entirely free and financed by myself,

Alessandro Oppo: to grow in Europe and in the world. So, yeah,

Alessandro Oppo: I'm open to suggestions if you have any.

Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. And the and the fact that you study political science is quite interesting because

Thomas Lorenz: I think that maybe for a person that study,

Thomas Lorenz: yeah, political science could be obvious that if you want to complain about something, you have to write to

Thomas Lorenz: someone that is inside the

Thomas Lorenz: the parliament or the municipality.

Thomas Lorenz: But maybe for people that studied

Thomas Lorenz: something else or they did something else,

Thomas Lorenz: it's not so obvious.

Thomas Lorenz: And so

Thomas Lorenz: they don't know what to do if there is an issue

Thomas Lorenz: in the Yes. Exactly.

Alessandro Oppo: I try to to pick that up, but also I try to, make it ridiculous to not believe your own excuse of

not doing anything about complaining,

Alessandro Oppo: because it's so easy and so fast. And, since I don't save any data,

Alessandro Oppo: I try to spread the words to write a letter to Berlin because that's what it means, and

Alessandro Oppo: I would like more and more people to actually use it and feel the power. And, Alessandro, I remember we talked a

Alessandro Oppo: week ago also about somebody becoming mayor and they stopped receiving letter from from their citizens.

Alessandro Oppo: And I hope more and more people actually soon dare to actually write a letter to their mayor, to their local member

of parliament in their town, in their community,

Alessandro Oppo: to actually address what needs to be addressed, like maybe a missing parking lot, a missing bike lane,

Alessandro Oppo: a construction site that's never ending.

Alessandro Oppo: We have that in both Italy and Germany,

Alessandro Oppo: or maybe bad Internet connection at my house,

Alessandro Oppo: which is also crucial infrastructure to a lot of people, especially to someone like me who studied political science and by accident

actually got involved

Alessandro Oppo: with

Alessandro Oppo: artificial intelligence and building

Alessandro Oppo: services

Alessandro Oppo: with it on the internet,

Alessandro Oppo: and this is my most

Alessandro Oppo: fun project right now.

Thomas Lorenz: Yeah, I think that this is one of the most exciting things about AI

Thomas Lorenz: that allows

Thomas Lorenz: all the people that have

Thomas Lorenz: maybe knowledge about society,

Thomas Lorenz: about politics

Thomas Lorenz: to being

Thomas Lorenz: they become able actually to create a project or to create something that can be useful to other people too.

Thomas Lorenz: Because in the past, I mean, three years ago, you had to

Thomas Lorenz: invest a lot of time and money to build, let's say, something like that.

Thomas Lorenz: And you had also to

Thomas Lorenz: to have the skills related to computer science. But often there is

Thomas Lorenz: let's say, division of knowledge in society.

Thomas Lorenz: So the people that know how to code,

Thomas Lorenz: they're not maybe so interested or they don't have the knowledge about the political

Thomas Lorenz: structure.

Thomas Lorenz: And

Thomas Lorenz: and, yeah, I was wondering if you also had other ideas about

Thomas Lorenz: if you got in touch with other projects.

Alessandro Oppo: I actually talked

Alessandro Oppo: to a lot of people and since my project has been growing, so

Alessandro Oppo: about three and a half months ago, it was picked up by one of the biggest politics podcasts of Germany called Lag

derazione, like state of the union, state of the nation,

Alessandro Oppo: and

Alessandro Oppo: they spread the news. And ever since, it's been growing, and I've been interviewed by papers and and now by you or,

like, other people who spread the idea.

Alessandro Oppo: And, yeah, I try to expand my ideas, and I also have

Alessandro Oppo: ideas to maybe

Alessandro Oppo: develop other projects to strengthen the feeling or

Alessandro Oppo: efficiency of of democracy, be it at the local level or even, like, on a state level or European level.

Alessandro Oppo: So, should we come up with, another nice app idea in in this talk? I'm very open to, procrastinate with that as

well. Oh, yeah. We can, have,

Thomas Lorenz: have some ideas actually.

Thomas Lorenz: Like Yeah. Let's let's go for it.

Thomas Lorenz: Something that will be very interesting,

Thomas Lorenz: is that, a lot of time in society,

Thomas Lorenz: we think that,

Thomas Lorenz: we don't realize that an issue that we have

Thomas Lorenz: maybe is not an individual issue, but a collective issue.

Thomas Lorenz: And I'll make this example. I think I did it in some other episodes

Thomas Lorenz: about, let's say, if I fight with my brother.

Thomas Lorenz: So I can think that, I don't know, my brother is annoying.

Thomas Lorenz: I can think that

Thomas Lorenz: yeah. But then

Thomas Lorenz: at the end,

Thomas Lorenz: a lot of other people are fighting with their brothers,

Thomas Lorenz: then it means that it's

Thomas Lorenz: a collective issue. Maybe in our town,

Thomas Lorenz: their homes are too small

Thomas Lorenz: and we don't have a room for each other.

Thomas Lorenz: Or could be something else.

Thomas Lorenz: Like maybe, I don't know, I

Thomas Lorenz: want to exercise, but I don't have a place where to go. So maybe there is not a public park and it

is the same for many other people,

Thomas Lorenz: but it's hard to realize it. Or maybe I want to stop smoking, I don't know, but all my friends are smoking.

Thomas Lorenz: And yeah, a lot of times we think that

Thomas Lorenz: an issue is just affecting us

Thomas Lorenz: because of the condition that we have. But a lot of times it's a

Thomas Lorenz: it's a society it's a problem that is

Thomas Lorenz: is related to many other people. And I I think that it will be very nice to also think about something

Thomas Lorenz: Mhmm. For this problem.

Thomas Lorenz: But how to do it is

Alessandro Oppo: is the question. I think you have to have a lot of data collecting and comparing it to it, so it had

to be very strict in terms of how to deal with the data, and also a lot of people have to actually

use it for the data to,

Alessandro Oppo: to matter. Because if it's just four people in your neighborhood, it's it's a lot. It's more than zero,

Alessandro Oppo: but it, cannot quite reliably,

Alessandro Oppo: point to a certain kind of indicator.

Alessandro Oppo: I think if a lot of people would use it,

Alessandro Oppo: that could happen, and I think the data, I'm not quite sure, but the big AI companies,

Alessandro Oppo: they do collect a lot of data, especially when you do not pay for using it, then you pay with your data

as of any product,

Alessandro Oppo: that you use in the internet.

Alessandro Oppo: I think they actually maybe could,

Alessandro Oppo: use it for this kind of thing. I'm not quite sure how they collect data to

Alessandro Oppo: personalize their offer to you,

Alessandro Oppo: but I think they could use their technology and their data collection for a good cause. I think me being a small

person, that would be quite a challenge to get a lot of people to use it to complain.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. But I don't wanna I don't wanna say no. So maybe in the future,

Alessandro Oppo: I can put my head together with some other people who want to build

Alessandro Oppo: something like this. I was dreaming

Alessandro Oppo: of some

Alessandro Oppo: sort of platform or, like, chatbot where people can get into

Alessandro Oppo: after they wrote their letter with Rief Nachmelyn because the process right now is you complain in a little text box, then

the letter finds

Alessandro Oppo: the person who you should address, so which political level is responsible,

Alessandro Oppo: then helps you formulate your letter. You get kinda like a draft sent to your email box for how long it is,

and, you can tweak it as well if it should be a bit more,

Alessandro Oppo: polite or if it's a bit more pressing towards your politician.

Alessandro Oppo: And then I ask you to actually copy it by hand. And I think how I perceive it right now, since a

lot of people then also text me like, thank you. You helped me overcome my procrastination. I always wanted to do this,

but I haven't never done it. And they feel very activated, and I think they are activated in a political way that

they don't feel,

Alessandro Oppo: like a like a passive citizen anymore, you know, like stuff does not happen to them, but right now they start to

take action.

Alessandro Oppo: And I was dreaming a bit of

Alessandro Oppo: sending them an email with both the letter draft and also some instructions of how to make it the most effective outcome,

Alessandro Oppo: but also give them the next step, you know, of going not the first, but the second step towards being

Alessandro Oppo: more democratic or more politically active.

Alessandro Oppo: And I was dreaming

Alessandro Oppo: in my head and discussing with some other people who are very engaged in civil society

Alessandro Oppo: what this app could be. So maybe a chatbot of saying where do you live, what do you want to do, what

are your hobbies, how old are you, how how much time do you have each week, and maybe then it goes through

a database and checks this kind of

Alessandro Oppo: volunteer work would fit you perfectly. You will get a lot of live people, and next Tuesday at seven, you said you're

free. You don't have anything to do on on Wednesday morning.

Alessandro Oppo: Why don't you go

Alessandro Oppo: help,

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, clean up the streets in your neighborhood? Some volunteers always meet up close to you, like, two minutes cycling.

Alessandro Oppo: Or maybe it helps to go to an elderly home and reach to people with dementia or this kind of stuff. And

I'm dreaming of of this kind of idea to connect one that I have and to kind of use habit stacking, you

know, so I kind of like sent you an email, you want to change something, and then I give you the next

step and say, you wanna go further and nudge and push you, further down the line of becoming more

Alessandro Oppo: politically active. So, whoever is listening to

Alessandro Oppo: us right now or also tomorrow,

Alessandro Oppo: please let me know if you have ideas, if you want to contribute,

Alessandro Oppo: if you want to bring a Brief Nach Berlin letter to parliament to your country, I'm more than, open to help, to

spread the word, gather ideas because,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, democracy is

Alessandro Oppo: a bit under attack in Europe and all over the world these days.

Thomas Lorenz: Yeah.

Thomas Lorenz: And these things about,

Thomas Lorenz: AI companies that collect a lot of data,

Thomas Lorenz: let me think many times about,

Thomas Lorenz: also how much they know about society. I mean, I think it was the same also before AI if we think about

Google

Thomas Lorenz: and other big tech. But with AI, it's even more explicit because we ask questions

Thomas Lorenz: that are very specific, and so

Thomas Lorenz: they know a lot about us.

Thomas Lorenz: And, also, I was wondering, what if in the future they also want

Thomas Lorenz: because as an example, for Charge GPT, it will be way easy

Thomas Lorenz: it will be very easy to understand what citizens

Thomas Lorenz: want in a certain country

Thomas Lorenz: and also the kind of language to

Thomas Lorenz: build a narration

Thomas Lorenz: that can be effective.

Thomas Lorenz: So I was wondering what if they, you know, if they

Thomas Lorenz: also become part of the political environment. I mean, they're already they're already part

Thomas Lorenz: of the political environment,

Thomas Lorenz: but not so directly.

Thomas Lorenz: And

Thomas Lorenz: because it's true that you have to have a lot of data to

Thomas Lorenz: discover all the issues that, are not affecting just one person, but,

Thomas Lorenz: broadly all the

Thomas Lorenz: society.

Thomas Lorenz: So I don't know if you had any thoughts about

Thomas Lorenz: about this

Thomas Lorenz: or maybe

Alessandro Oppo: I I think to to speak about one aspect of what you just mentioned,

Alessandro Oppo: What one

Alessandro Oppo: could do right now is analyze how Google is used because you can see the keywords that are used. I think you

can also filter it down towards certain regions in a country or a city even.

Alessandro Oppo: I'm not quite sure about this, but this could be an indicator that you could

Alessandro Oppo: tap onto right now. But since Google is a bit in the decline because a lot of people also turn to ChatGPT

and other AI platforms to look for answers that are quick,

Alessandro Oppo: I think it might not be as representative

Alessandro Oppo: and as vastly used as it was, I don't know, two or three years ago.

Alessandro Oppo: But, yeah, I feel that there is also a

Alessandro Oppo: potential danger. I'm very I I enjoy using artificial intelligence as a tool,

Alessandro Oppo: but I also see the potential harm it could do to societies

Alessandro Oppo: because it makes it so easy to not ask any human anymore or to go into conflict and

Alessandro Oppo: it just helps more individualization,

Alessandro Oppo: isolation a little bit, but it also gives us the illusion of a perfect answer. So if nobody

Alessandro Oppo: discusses anything anymore, we ask CHIPTY and there is one answer coming, and it's fast, reliable, and sounds

Alessandro Oppo: cause

Alessandro Oppo: how do you say possible to us,

Alessandro Oppo: it it is a heuristic or maybe a lazy heuristic of today's world to to just believe it, not challenge the thought.

Alessandro Oppo: But in general,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, I'm very skeptical towards

Alessandro Oppo: the power being abused,

Alessandro Oppo: of this super powerful technology

Alessandro Oppo: to

Alessandro Oppo: shape laws,

Alessandro Oppo: in in the European Commission to,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah,

Alessandro Oppo: to use a lot of power and dependence because right now, since it's so cheap or apparently so cheap,

Alessandro Oppo: in the short term for both companies, individual people, and also for people like me to use it, I will get very

used to using it, and should they soon raise prices, which they will have to because they're all in debt, I think,

the only exception is NVIDIA right now.

Alessandro Oppo: They're battling for who wins the monopoly race

Alessandro Oppo: and then, raise prices heavily, I guess.

Alessandro Oppo: And, yeah,

Alessandro Oppo: I think we're all very dependent in the future on this kind of technology, and then we have to pay at one

point. So,

Thomas Lorenz: yeah. Absolutely.

Thomas Lorenz: But, and also from our cultural point of view, I saw that,

Thomas Lorenz: I mean, it is through what you said about

Thomas Lorenz: the reply of an LLM that is, like, you know, it's perfect, credible, easy to to read.

Thomas Lorenz: And, I also saw that,

Thomas Lorenz: well, in the past to do, like, a complex project, you had to,

Thomas Lorenz: yeah. Or to have money

Thomas Lorenz: and so that you could pay someone else,

Thomas Lorenz: or you had to cooperate with other people.

Thomas Lorenz: But nowadays, it is like

Thomas Lorenz: it is easier to maybe relate to a

Thomas Lorenz: to talk to an LLM

Thomas Lorenz: and tell

Thomas Lorenz: to the AI what to do instead of having to deal with other people and to collaborate with them

Thomas Lorenz: because

Thomas Lorenz: collaboration is very hard,

Thomas Lorenz: but still I think that is something important.

Thomas Lorenz: But, yeah, I also understand, and it's also happened to me that sometimes instead of having to deal with other people, I

was just going to Jajibati or or Yeah.

Thomas Lorenz: This is something

Thomas Lorenz: that, I saw and, but I think it will be

Thomas Lorenz: very important,

Thomas Lorenz: for society to collaborate on different issues.

Thomas Lorenz: And also we

Thomas Lorenz: Dana, please.

Alessandro Oppo: I

Alessandro Oppo: think that it can also be like a false friend in the way that I think the pace that we are all

expected to actually,

Alessandro Oppo: put work in, put labor in to produce something, be it code or, I don't know, something at work,

Alessandro Oppo: we

Alessandro Oppo: are expected to be more and more efficient with this tool. So, I can imagine

Alessandro Oppo: that stress levels will rise and people, might be more likely to to burn out. And also, in my case,

Alessandro Oppo: I have,

Alessandro Oppo: worked a lot with artificial intelligence and I feel very confident in using it to producing code even though I'm not I

I can read code a little bit, but I could never have created Rief Nachbelein so fast and so well working

Alessandro Oppo: without this technology. So super powerful to also boost AI, and I enjoy using it

Alessandro Oppo: as a first step for people to actually doing something analog and use their pen and write their letter and feel

Alessandro Oppo: the paper and, you know, lick the stamp, the Franco Vollo,

Alessandro Oppo: put it on on the letter and put it send it away. It's an act. It's very cognitive. It requires a lot

of senses, you know, like touch and feel and, yeah, maybe even taste depending on on your stamp.

Alessandro Oppo: And I think you will remember

Alessandro Oppo: sending a letter that you wrote one one page, one and a half, or two pages because most of the people, they

do not remember writing the last letter

Alessandro Oppo: because it was so long ago. But if you do today, you will I can ask you last year, did you write

a letter to your member of parliament? And you will very confidently say,

Alessandro Oppo: yes. But if I ask you about what you did on on ChannelGPT or, on WhatsApp or texted, you will not be

able to be so sure because there's very little friction involved, there's very few senses involved, and we do that transactionally

so many times in a day.

Alessandro Oppo: But also when it comes to artificial intelligence,

Alessandro Oppo: I look forward to how

Alessandro Oppo: the European Union will be able to regulate in terms of privacy and also market share power,

Alessandro Oppo: but also allow us to profit

Alessandro Oppo: in a good way to use this

Alessandro Oppo: technology,

Alessandro Oppo: but it can also lead, and that is also was in my case,

Alessandro Oppo: to something

Alessandro Oppo: I would say is productive procrastination.

Alessandro Oppo: So, you feel like you're doing so many things at once and you have this genius idea of this new app or

this automation that helps you.

Alessandro Oppo: But I think a lot of people,

Alessandro Oppo: including me, also have been fallen into the trap of perfectionizing

Alessandro Oppo: something in silence and making it great for other people to use or even for myself,

Alessandro Oppo: but in the end, I was just

Alessandro Oppo: procrastinating,

Alessandro Oppo: but it felt productive.

Alessandro Oppo: So,

Alessandro Oppo: I think it can also,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah,

Alessandro Oppo: make us fall in into this kind of trap as well because we can do so much in such little time, but

if we step back and breathe and maybe not look at a screen for that second,

Alessandro Oppo: do we even need what we built or do we even need to write so many emails? But what about sending just

one letter to parliament instead of five,

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, AI emails to five constituents?

Alessandro Oppo: So I would say go

Alessandro Oppo: when you want something effective to happen,

Alessandro Oppo: take your time and write a more personalized

Alessandro Oppo: letter or construct something that is

Alessandro Oppo: where you actually know the proven

Alessandro Oppo: benefit

Alessandro Oppo: will occur than to just

Alessandro Oppo: start doing it and lose two weeks of doing it,

Alessandro Oppo: but feeling productive,

Alessandro Oppo: but I think it can also lead a bit to anxiety.

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know if I was very clear about, what I was just said.

Thomas Lorenz: No. I think yes. I understood you. Okay. Good.

Thomas Lorenz: And,

Thomas Lorenz: yeah, I was also thinking about,

Thomas Lorenz: before about the fact that, your project is, quite simple in a way because it doesn't, do anything so

Thomas Lorenz: complex,

Thomas Lorenz: But

Thomas Lorenz: it's simple in a good way so that people

Thomas Lorenz: understand

Thomas Lorenz: what

Thomas Lorenz: the tool is doing.

Thomas Lorenz: Because I think on one side, probably

Thomas Lorenz: I could also go to and

Thomas Lorenz: write this issue down, write me a letter and find who is the

Thomas Lorenz: the person I should write the letter to.

Thomas Lorenz: But

Thomas Lorenz: maybe many people don't have this

Thomas Lorenz: I mean, it is easier if there is a tool. I just go there, and I don't have to register.

Thomas Lorenz: And, yeah, I totally agree also about the fact of procrastination,

Thomas Lorenz: and I've seen it also myself,

Thomas Lorenz: the on other friends

Thomas Lorenz: and people that I know.

Thomas Lorenz: And and also about this,

Thomas Lorenz: before I was talking about collaboration

Thomas Lorenz: and nowadays with the software being so easy and cheap,

Thomas Lorenz: I think that collaboration

Thomas Lorenz: is even more important because otherwise, I don't know, you build your tool in Germany.

Thomas Lorenz: I build the same tool in Italy,

Thomas Lorenz: but maybe we can have like a sort of

Thomas Lorenz: cooperation. I don't know. You build the back end, they build the front end, the

Thomas Lorenz: different ideas integrated.

Thomas Lorenz: And, also, there is a

Thomas Lorenz: yeah. I mean, we will save both human energy and also

Thomas Lorenz: electric energy.

Thomas Lorenz: Yeah.

Alessandro Oppo: And we can have more free time. I mean, that is a nice thing because in this very

Alessandro Oppo: hyper stressed world, I would say, where we are all, you know, on our phones constantly and everything blinks and we get

notifications,

Alessandro Oppo: it's also nice to

Alessandro Oppo: to shut off every now and then. And I struggle with that myself as well because it's so tempting to give in

to this technology, which is perfectly designed by psychologists and very capable and smart people to actually draw my attention towards

those platforms.

Alessandro Oppo: But, yeah, as you said, I tried to

Alessandro Oppo: make the tool so simple,

Alessandro Oppo: and I did not reinvent the reinvent the world.

Alessandro Oppo: But

Alessandro Oppo: it actually just looks for

Alessandro Oppo: using your matter, checking

Alessandro Oppo: it has, like, a mapping in the background of who is responsible for your postcode. So you put in your your ZIP

code, which in Germany are very simple. I think in Italy and Portugal where I lived before, it's a bit more, bit

more tough, but you can find,

Alessandro Oppo: an easy mapping service online. Most of what I used was open source as well.

Alessandro Oppo: And that's what also led me to build it open source to both strengthen credibility,

Alessandro Oppo: but also to say, okay. Here's something so simple, and it's super effective.

Alessandro Oppo: A lot of people feel,

Alessandro Oppo: like they're civically engaged.

Alessandro Oppo: They write letters to their parliaments to be more in touch with citizens and,

Alessandro Oppo: politicians,

Alessandro Oppo: which I, think is a big struggle in today's world of multi corporate interests,

Alessandro Oppo: and I decided to to go open source. So other people in Italy,

Alessandro Oppo: in,

Alessandro Oppo: Czech Republic, in

Alessandro Oppo: Poland,

Alessandro Oppo: in Portugal, or even The US or wherever people are listening from, it's super easy to clone my app to your country,

Alessandro Oppo: and I heavily invite you to do so and contact me. I put it all up. Everything is,

Alessandro Oppo: is transparent,

Alessandro Oppo: especially to save this time. It may be

Alessandro Oppo: to, to not start from zero if you want to build it in Italy,

Alessandro Oppo: but to start at 80%,

Alessandro Oppo: and you could push it easy to 90 to a 100% of a working prototype

Alessandro Oppo: and then,

Alessandro Oppo: start building it on your own. So I I heavily embraced this, this open source boost in the past years.

Thomas Lorenz: And I wanted to ask you,

Thomas Lorenz: like, a more

Thomas Lorenz: political question, like, what is democracy for you?

Thomas Lorenz: And also how

Thomas Lorenz: do you think that democracy

Thomas Lorenz: could evolve

Thomas Lorenz: if we use this

Thomas Lorenz: kind of tool? So if there is more participation,

Thomas Lorenz: basically.

Alessandro Oppo: Mhmm.

Alessandro Oppo: I think back in the day for me, democracy was

Alessandro Oppo: voting every four years, at least in Germany on a on a national level or every two years if you count, you

know, the the switch between or depending on where you live for states, national, and community.

Alessandro Oppo: But today, it is so much more.

Alessandro Oppo: Democracy for me was also being able to

Alessandro Oppo: to live in Bologna

Alessandro Oppo: and studying Bologna with Erasmus or going to Lisbon where I where I have lived almost four years

Alessandro Oppo: in such an easy and safe way where people cooperate.

Alessandro Oppo: And for me, it is,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, the closest thing we come to freedom

Alessandro Oppo: and,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, also freedom of expression.

Alessandro Oppo: I know these are very big terms,

Alessandro Oppo: but I think

Alessandro Oppo: to me it is the the water that I swim in pretty much, and I want to to preserve it and and

strengthen it.

Alessandro Oppo: And I think democracy

Alessandro Oppo: will evolve. It has to evolve. I mean, that's what people do in parliament every day. And maybe for short periods of

time, it goes into a wrong, very reactive way and not a very

Alessandro Oppo: proactive,

Alessandro Oppo: vision following approach,

Alessandro Oppo: which I think has to be highly

Alessandro Oppo: sustainable,

Alessandro Oppo: integrating more people and more opinions,

Alessandro Oppo: and establishing and strengthening formats

Alessandro Oppo: and structures

Alessandro Oppo: so people can get more into exchange. So when I talk to people that are outside of my own political belief bubble,

Alessandro Oppo: that I don't need to be afraid that they take over. But I think, yeah, I I don't agree with you, but

I have to respect you in a certain letter

Alessandro Oppo: way. And I think technology can

Alessandro Oppo: help to bring people together,

Alessandro Oppo: but right now, it is heavily abused for specific interests

Alessandro Oppo: to divide us into very individual,

Alessandro Oppo: bubbles to shout, to seek attention and emotionalize.

Alessandro Oppo: And I

Alessandro Oppo: remember when I was at school,

Alessandro Oppo: and I was, in a political science class at my school,

Alessandro Oppo: and I was like, oh, this is so boring.

Alessandro Oppo: You know, because I learned how the political levels were working, what bureaucracy

Alessandro Oppo: is, how do you vote, how's the chancellor in check with the parliament and the opposition,

Alessandro Oppo: and blah blah blah. And

Alessandro Oppo: looking at today's news

Alessandro Oppo: from across the pond or even in Europe or

Alessandro Oppo: The Middle East or whatever you want to call different regions of the world. I wish it was boring again. I know

it's a very Euro centric way of looking at it because it was very boring in Germany,

Alessandro Oppo: for example, at the beginning of the two thousands when I was at school,

Alessandro Oppo: But I hope a lot more regions go back to that kind of state where politics is

Alessandro Oppo: is a more calm way of dealing with actual problems to not solve them because it's a continuous thing. There is nothing

you can solve in politics eternally, and it's it's good forever,

Alessandro Oppo: but that people can come together in a very constructive way,

Alessandro Oppo: ask the politicians

Alessandro Oppo: to to be responsible

Alessandro Oppo: with their vote,

Alessandro Oppo: and,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, ensure that we have a democratic future in in front of us.

Thomas Lorenz: And have you had any thought about,

Thomas Lorenz: I don't know,

Thomas Lorenz: because now we have a representative democracy that is,

Thomas Lorenz: let's say, the

Thomas Lorenz: the old Greeks, they

Thomas Lorenz: would have they would not have called it democracy.

Thomas Lorenz: Mhmm.

Thomas Lorenz: And so I was wondering because now technology also allows people to, let's say, vote about everything

Thomas Lorenz: or

Thomas Lorenz: maybe

Thomas Lorenz: to

Thomas Lorenz: to comment about,

Thomas Lorenz: policies and so on. So I don't know if it could be a direct democracy,

Thomas Lorenz: direct and representative

Thomas Lorenz: together.

Thomas Lorenz: But, yeah, I'm very curious about,

Thomas Lorenz: what is the next democracy, let's say, the next, possible

Thomas Lorenz: democracy

Thomas Lorenz: and,

Thomas Lorenz: yeah, how we can use technology in the best way because a lot of times we use it,

Thomas Lorenz: or to

Thomas Lorenz: yeah. Maybe for the bad,

Thomas Lorenz: not not for the right goals, let's say. Mhmm.

Thomas Lorenz: Also, as you say, the social networks, are not made

Thomas Lorenz: they're made to to to

Thomas Lorenz: for us to stay in specific bubbles.

Thomas Lorenz: And,

Thomas Lorenz: yeah, I'm very curious how we can use technology,

Thomas Lorenz: also to

Thomas Lorenz: yeah. Let's say to have a boring political,

Thomas Lorenz: environment. Because, when the political environment is interesting,

Thomas Lorenz: it means that

Thomas Lorenz: there are bad times.

Thomas Lorenz: Usually,

Thomas Lorenz: dictatorships, civil wars.

Alessandro Oppo: It it's it's polarizing. I mean, boring can also mean, maybe for the people in Russia, it's very boring because they cannot

change anything anyway. They just watch the news.

Alessandro Oppo: So we have, like, two sided thing. I think in a democracy that's well working. What I meant with boring, it was,

okay, stuff is happening, and it's happening for the good, and it's kind of rational

Alessandro Oppo: to the challenges that we face as a group, as a huge anonymous group of, let's say, the the people of Germany,

of Italy, of Portugal.

Alessandro Oppo: But democracy

Alessandro Oppo: and and tech,

Alessandro Oppo: they can go

Alessandro Oppo: there will always be a struggle, I think, in between.

Alessandro Oppo: But if you find and create laws and, institutions

Alessandro Oppo: that incentivize

Alessandro Oppo: democracy boosting,

Alessandro Oppo: behavior,

Alessandro Oppo: I think technology as a whole can

Alessandro Oppo: aid

Alessandro Oppo: democracy,

Alessandro Oppo: state level institutions,

Alessandro Oppo: and even economics

Alessandro Oppo: in the long run to not be very shortsighted,

Alessandro Oppo: to follow shortsighted incentives

Alessandro Oppo: that we have,

Alessandro Oppo: like the best quarter earnings

Alessandro Oppo: to

Alessandro Oppo: get the best dividends

Alessandro Oppo: to people who hold your stock,

Alessandro Oppo: but maybe to say, okay, we

Alessandro Oppo: created,

Alessandro Oppo: a way to incentivize people to look more in the long run, to not look into the next quarter, but maybe

Alessandro Oppo: check the next four or five years, and we have kind of like a polar star where we're all going

Alessandro Oppo: are are working towards. I think technology can help to bring people together because

Alessandro Oppo: life today is so complex,

Alessandro Oppo: and I think especially with

Alessandro Oppo: artificial intelligence,

Alessandro Oppo: there is a technology that can

Alessandro Oppo: recognize

Alessandro Oppo: pattern for us where we would take a lot of time to, you know, make it work.

Alessandro Oppo: And I'm super curious who comes up with some nice idea that can

Alessandro Oppo: strengthen this kind of politics and not abuse it for surveillance

Alessandro Oppo: and power abuse

Alessandro Oppo: but to use it to bring people together. But for me, I think that also

Alessandro Oppo: always means

Alessandro Oppo: to use technology,

Alessandro Oppo: to bring people together, and then not use technology for a while or to not look at the screen, but actually

Alessandro Oppo: give,

Alessandro Oppo: you the most valuable resource that I have, which is my time and my attention.

Alessandro Oppo: So I say I put my phone away or I put it in my pocket and not have it sit on the

desk

Alessandro Oppo: or at the table. I give you my full

Alessandro Oppo: attention,

Alessandro Oppo: and I look for the the cues you have in your face. Are you doubting what I'm saying? Do you follow my

my arguments?

Alessandro Oppo: Do you have a better idea than me? And do you challenge my worldview,

Alessandro Oppo: but not in a way that I have to defend myself, but

Alessandro Oppo: I can say, yeah, I think I think you're

Alessandro Oppo: you're onto something.

Alessandro Oppo: And the second part,

Alessandro Oppo: referring to your question,

Alessandro Oppo: is a bit I think,

Alessandro Oppo: I totally underestimated

Alessandro Oppo: before I studied, especially before I went on Erasmus in in Italy and in Portugal,

Alessandro Oppo: how the culture and the history

Alessandro Oppo: of a territory or a nation or a country, however you want to call it,

Alessandro Oppo: heavily influences how people engage

Alessandro Oppo: with

Alessandro Oppo: with a society and their expectation.

Alessandro Oppo: Just recently, I listened to a podcast about Meloni

Alessandro Oppo: and how she struggles also with

Alessandro Oppo: with the big lawyers and the state institutions

Alessandro Oppo: in the country,

Alessandro Oppo: but even right wing people who support Meloni's

Alessandro Oppo: view of the world or would want her to go even further, there's a very big

Alessandro Oppo: patriotic view of protecting a very anti fascist

Alessandro Oppo: constitution of Italy. So there's like, how do you say, a patriarchy

Alessandro Oppo: towards the constitution,

Alessandro Oppo: towards like,

Alessandro Oppo: maybe Garibaldis Italy, let's say. And in Germany,

Alessandro Oppo: it it is completely different. So how our checks and balances would have to work in terms of how we inherit it

from our ancestors,

Alessandro Oppo: parents, whatever,

Alessandro Oppo: it I think it would lead to a different kind of outcome if you put it together. So I find it super

interesting how we inside

Alessandro Oppo: the European continent, the European Union,

Alessandro Oppo: have different approaches of how we want it to work. You talked about Switzerland kind of in a way, you know, they

have a more direct

Alessandro Oppo: democracy, but they're also smaller country.

Alessandro Oppo: Then you have some sort of like Norway who have like a king again,

Alessandro Oppo: and it's kind of like a monarchy,

Alessandro Oppo: representative

Alessandro Oppo: monarchy, but with, well, mostly democratic terms.

Alessandro Oppo: So I

Alessandro Oppo: I'm really curious, and I'm very

Alessandro Oppo: optimistic that we will have to figure out

Alessandro Oppo: in the twenty first century to deal with

Alessandro Oppo: AI and other digital technology

Alessandro Oppo: to actually

Alessandro Oppo: make it work,

Alessandro Oppo: to be pragmatic about it and not be too proud of one's own opinion,

Alessandro Oppo: but wanting to cooperate,

Alessandro Oppo: build alliances

Alessandro Oppo: and embrace the other,

Alessandro Oppo: but always looking towards protecting democracy first,

Alessandro Oppo: and not to just go towards,

Alessandro Oppo: felt or perceived

Alessandro Oppo: efficiency

Alessandro Oppo: kind of like in China who feels to be so much faster in

Alessandro Oppo: certain technologies

Alessandro Oppo: or just fixing a road. Apparently, in China takes two days, and in Germany, it takes one and a half years.

Alessandro Oppo: But I still don't want to live in China even though I find it super interesting,

Alessandro Oppo: but I feel a lot less

Alessandro Oppo: supervised

Alessandro Oppo: and,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, I I feel a lot more free when it comes to to living in Europe than to living, somewhere else in

this world. And I feel also very fortunate and lucky to be born, here.

Thomas Lorenz: You haven't said how much time we take in Italy to fix a street because we don't fix them.

Thomas Lorenz: Nice. Because

Thomas Lorenz: yeah. I I saw that different countries

Thomas Lorenz: has different level of speed in

Thomas Lorenz: relation to to everything.

Thomas Lorenz: And so so, yeah, the culture is quite important also in relation to politics.

Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. Especially like Italy and Germany, they are,

Thomas Lorenz: quite different.

Thomas Lorenz: I I never lived in Germany, maybe in the future.

Thomas Lorenz: But, yeah, I see this difference.

Thomas Lorenz: And,

Thomas Lorenz: there was something I wanted to say that I just forgot.

Thomas Lorenz: Yeah.

Thomas Lorenz: If you want to say something because I forgot what I wanted to say.

Alessandro Oppo: One one idea I also had in my mind is

Alessandro Oppo: how much,

Alessandro Oppo: like, I have a very strong opinion,

Alessandro Oppo: for example, when it comes to fixing roads, be it Germany, Italy, or wherever, but have a very weak concept

Alessandro Oppo: of what has to happen so a road is fixed. I don't know who actually has to do it to be involved.

How do I call them? What is it in terms of, like, law? Like, who can I order to to get this

road fixed? So I think we totally under complicate in our heads what has to happen,

Alessandro Oppo: and I have a very strong opinion that it should happen the next day. You know? But maybe the the company is

fixing roads outside of town right now, or it's, like, too expensive,

Alessandro Oppo: and it has to be, like, a public announcement. Hey. Who wants to fix this road?

Alessandro Oppo: And people compete against each other. So

Alessandro Oppo: I think technology in the future can also bring this together, you know, like, more of, like, knowing

Alessandro Oppo: and

Alessandro Oppo: and being able to deal with it and being,

Alessandro Oppo: efficient in terms of fixing,

Alessandro Oppo: stuff,

Alessandro Oppo: but also helping other people to say, hey. You can be very you can be very emotional about it, have a strong

opinion, but it's also never, never as easy as you think it is.

Alessandro Oppo: Sometimes it's over complicated. I think in Germany, we have so many rules

Alessandro Oppo: that prohibits us from actually being pragmatic,

Alessandro Oppo: But also sometimes I enjoy that I grew up with so many rules because

Alessandro Oppo: in Germany,

Alessandro Oppo: I can rely on public infrastructure,

Alessandro Oppo: and I can actually sue people when something is not working. It takes a lot of time. Yes.

Alessandro Oppo: But

Alessandro Oppo: looking at at other states or other political systems, I feel

Alessandro Oppo: I feel lucky,

Alessandro Oppo: but I also feel,

Alessandro Oppo: how do you say,

Alessandro Oppo: I feel very annoyed sometimes. You know? And when I go to Italy, feel like, ah, people are on the streets more.

The coffee is better. It's cheaper.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: I I feel more, alive maybe sometimes

Alessandro Oppo: because I think Germany is such a weird fetish towards work and productivity.

Alessandro Oppo: But I think it also

Alessandro Oppo: is my opinion because I grew up my normal state is Germany even though I've lived abroad in quite a few countries.

Alessandro Oppo: But since I know so much of what is happening in Germany and I have a feeling of how it works together,

Alessandro Oppo: I

Alessandro Oppo: feel worse about Germany than I may feel about when I'm on vacation in Italy because

Alessandro Oppo: yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I know so much more of of Germany and how it works and should work

because I know I don't know. We're so productive. I don't know what you want to say about us. But,

Alessandro Oppo: when I go to Italy,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, I sometimes feel like we're also behind in a certain way. And I don't know if if if you come to

Germany and you see, ah, shit. There's not so many coffee places around, but you enjoy a clean park or,

Alessandro Oppo: which we don't quite have in Bologna. We had the little,

Alessandro Oppo: Trichen to Scalini outside of, in the Southwest,

Alessandro Oppo: which is beautiful, but I love the parks in Germany, like big parks.

Alessandro Oppo: They also didn't quite have that in Lisbon. There was a lot of little gardens which were beautiful, but a proper park.

Alessandro Oppo: That's that's a very nice thing.

Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also I was thinking about two things. One is that, about all the rules and laws

Thomas Lorenz: that,

Thomas Lorenz: many times they also contradict themselves.

Thomas Lorenz: And I mean, I also think that, rules and laws are very related to power relationship.

Thomas Lorenz: So

Thomas Lorenz: the fact that you can interpret the law is based on who is in power in that moment, who has the power

at that moment.

Thomas Lorenz: And so I

Thomas Lorenz: was thinking about maybe how AI could help

Thomas Lorenz: maybe simplify

Thomas Lorenz: what is contradicting,

Thomas Lorenz: the different contradictions.

Thomas Lorenz: And then also,

Thomas Lorenz: it came to my mind what I wanted to say before

Thomas Lorenz: about the different countries

Thomas Lorenz: and the different ways of,

Thomas Lorenz: different political systems.

Thomas Lorenz: Because I I feel like that if we use technology

Thomas Lorenz: to simplify,

Thomas Lorenz: let's say, the administration,

Thomas Lorenz: then that is

Thomas Lorenz: probably what it makes the what is the the big difference in term of time.

Thomas Lorenz: Because then I I think that to

Thomas Lorenz: build literally

Thomas Lorenz: to to fix the street in China, in Germany, or in Italy,

Thomas Lorenz: the people that fix the street take more or less the same amount of time,

Thomas Lorenz: okay, based on the machines that they have and so on.

Thomas Lorenz: But probably the main things is how to

Thomas Lorenz: on on one side, the political things to say, okay, that street has to be fixed.

Thomas Lorenz: Then with

Thomas Lorenz: which kind of money? Where do we take the money? And then who is doing that thing?

Thomas Lorenz: I mean, my cousin or, like,

Thomas Lorenz: or, like,

Thomas Lorenz: am I doing like,

Thomas Lorenz: how do you say, like a ban like,

Thomas Lorenz: that people have to do an application,

Thomas Lorenz: and so they are selected,

Thomas Lorenz: to fix the street.

Alessandro Oppo: To apply?

Thomas Lorenz: Just Yeah. To apply.

Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. Okay.

Thomas Lorenz: I will look later.

Thomas Lorenz: And

Thomas Lorenz: and, yeah, I was thinking that maybe

Thomas Lorenz: this is going to happen that the

Thomas Lorenz: let's say the state become faster

Thomas Lorenz: and faster.

Thomas Lorenz: And related to this, there is the

Thomas Lorenz: agentic state concept

Thomas Lorenz: vision paper. I don't know if you had the

Thomas Lorenz: chance to see it. It's a quite interesting project because they basically say, like, citizens now are used to,

Thomas Lorenz: to quick services. Like, I don't know, you order from Amazon. The next day you have something.

Thomas Lorenz: Mhmm. You receive the package.

Thomas Lorenz: And, and it is the same with everything

Thomas Lorenz: while the state is still slow.

Thomas Lorenz: Mhmm. And, so if the state doesn't become also responsive as,

Thomas Lorenz: let's say, the private companies in the tech sector are,

Thomas Lorenz: then the state will lose and basically will not exist anymore.

Thomas Lorenz: Then,

Thomas Lorenz: it is interesting to think about what is the state.

Thomas Lorenz: So if it is the entity that has the monopoly of violence or more like the administrative

Thomas Lorenz: things.

Thomas Lorenz: But

Thomas Lorenz: yeah, I feel like that

Thomas Lorenz: a lot of things could be simplified,

Thomas Lorenz: let's say by technology.

Thomas Lorenz: And this doesn't mean that we will live in a better society,

Thomas Lorenz: but at least

Thomas Lorenz: maybe street will be fixed in a quicker way.

Thomas Lorenz: So

Alessandro Oppo: this Yeah. I look forward to

Alessandro Oppo: specifically for the, bureaucratic processes to be more streamlined, more comprehensible,

Alessandro Oppo: and also to be used on my phone. You know, when I'm sitting in the tram and I have to go to

work in my commute,

Alessandro Oppo: I can, you know, say,

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, my my child needs a new ID, and I can click on it on a phone and it's super

fast. That would be amazing.

Alessandro Oppo: I know in in Estonia and some Nordic countries, they are also very, very far.

Alessandro Oppo: And I think

Alessandro Oppo: or I am sometimes surprised

Alessandro Oppo: that I don't notice

Alessandro Oppo: German politicians

Alessandro Oppo: going there and saying, how did you do it? Tell us, and we incorporate it into German and put some label of

on

Alessandro Oppo: top of it, like data privacy, which is super important. It's like a religious concept here in Germany.

Alessandro Oppo: I

Alessandro Oppo: I really hope, this

Alessandro Oppo: this will actually

Alessandro Oppo: boost

Alessandro Oppo: the processes,

Alessandro Oppo: of normal citizens having to deal with the state. Because right now, for a lot of people,

Alessandro Oppo: dealing with the state means, yes, maybe voting,

Alessandro Oppo: in terms of democracy, but dealing with the state means

Alessandro Oppo: to check that everything is correct, you know, that that I live in a certain way, that when I want to build

a house, every paper signed and filled is sent out.

Alessandro Oppo: And if that process of dealing with the state of my state, I am part of the state, right, is painful.

Alessandro Oppo: I am not a big fan necessarily.

Alessandro Oppo: I don't feel like I want to defend filling out so many papers that I have on my desk and all the

information I get on actual

Alessandro Oppo: paper.

Alessandro Oppo: In the contrary,

Alessandro Oppo: looking at

Alessandro Oppo: a brief Nach Berlin, for example, the little project that I have, it can be funny that in the future, things are

more going to be digital.

Alessandro Oppo: But I think the more this is going to happen, the more important and more effective

Alessandro Oppo: it will be to actually write a handwritten letter when you want to complain about something or actually say, why are we

still so analog? And you send an analog handwritten letter because it is always the exception. It will always stick out.

Alessandro Oppo: You know?

Alessandro Oppo: Let's say, you

Alessandro Oppo: receive so many messages or emails, but the actual letter sits on your desk. You cannot swipe it away or neglect it

or artificially

Alessandro Oppo: intelligence,

Alessandro Oppo: have it be summed up and summarized and sent away.

Alessandro Oppo: It takes more time to actually look at this piece of paper, and this piece of paper, handwritten

Alessandro Oppo: specific,

Alessandro Oppo: feeling in your hand. Right? So you it's not quite legible.

Alessandro Oppo: It has a very personal touch to it. It's a very costly

Alessandro Oppo: signal of someone to spend time and go the more complicated, the longer and more costly way,

Alessandro Oppo: than to just send something AI written

Alessandro Oppo: that I haven't even read to

Alessandro Oppo: to my member of parliament.

Alessandro Oppo: So I look forward to having both things. So if you actually mean to complain or even want to say thank you

to your member of parliament, they work long hours, don't see their family as much, It's a very tough job.

Alessandro Oppo: This kind of personal note

Alessandro Oppo: is a very, very effective pattern break for the receiver

Alessandro Oppo: to see, okay. Somebody actually means it, takes time, and sends me a personal thing, but also for us ourselves because since

we're more and more looking at technology

Alessandro Oppo: and in the future, hopefully also dealing with state matters, bureaucratic matters on our phone, on our laptops, iPads, or whatever

future technology we use.

Alessandro Oppo: It also is something for me to actually sit down, be very conscious about taking the pen, taking the paper, writing down

what I actually want fixed and knowing I am responsible for sending this piece of paper to Rome, to Lisbon, to Berlin,

Alessandro Oppo: or Washington DC.

Alessandro Oppo: And I think these

Alessandro Oppo: two different technologies,

Alessandro Oppo: two different approaches towards

Alessandro Oppo: sending a message, sending information somewhere,

Alessandro Oppo: I think they can go hand in hand even though they're totally contradictory.

Alessandro Oppo: And I think that that to me is fascinating. I hope we write even less letters and fill out papers in the

future,

Alessandro Oppo: but if we do, we really mean it. And that will be true for both the person who writes it and the

person who receives it. It can also be a postcard.

Alessandro Oppo: Right? Back in the day, I saw so many postcards everywhere when I traveled with Interrey on my first time in Italy,

Alessandro Oppo: and now they're very rare.

Alessandro Oppo: You can still buy them. They've become ridiculously expensive, I think, for

Alessandro Oppo: a printed piece of cardboard.

Alessandro Oppo: But back in the day, there were so many postcards to choose from, and today there is very little, and most of

them have become very ugly,

Alessandro Oppo: I think.

Alessandro Oppo: But when I receive a postcard,

Alessandro Oppo: I always feel like, oh, wow, this person I wasn't expecting this. This person

Alessandro Oppo: took his time, put on a stamp, went to the postal code,

Alessandro Oppo: and, miraculously,

Alessandro Oppo: the Portuguese postal office, Zete Te, made it happen that this thing did not,

Alessandro Oppo: go to waste, disappeared,

Alessandro Oppo: but it actually reached

Alessandro Oppo: all the way from across the world. I think that's that's super neat. It's something

Alessandro Oppo: uniquely human that I feel like something that you have crafted yourself,

Alessandro Oppo: is in my hand, and it took you some time to actually do it. So yeah. Yeah. I see these these two

aspects.

Thomas Lorenz: When I was a kid, I was collecting stamps

Thomas Lorenz: because they were traveling all around the world. Mhmm. So I really,

Thomas Lorenz: really like

Thomas Lorenz: real letters

Alessandro Oppo: and stamps.

Thomas Lorenz: And

Thomas Lorenz: and, yeah, if you have a,

Thomas Lorenz: let's say, a final message for all the people who are working,

Thomas Lorenz: on things related to democracy,

Thomas Lorenz: maybe with technology, maybe without technology,

Thomas Lorenz: like a message to them?

Alessandro Oppo: I would say work open source, do a little bit of advertisement

Alessandro Oppo: for your matter online, so people can find you on LinkedIn, Instagram,

Alessandro Oppo: and the other weird platforms

Alessandro Oppo: we are dependent on from,

Alessandro Oppo: from The US,

Alessandro Oppo: in order to reach a lot of people like I'm trying to hear in this podcast. Talk to Alessandro,

Alessandro Oppo: maybe

Alessandro Oppo: have some idea made together, and let's, let's connect. If you want to copy Brief Nach Berlin, Letter to Parliament to your

country, you have an idea or you know your cousin

Alessandro Oppo: is experimenting with AI, let's get in touch with me. If you have an idea that could work in Germany,

Alessandro Oppo: feel free to contact me. You can go on,

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know what it's called, topyahoo topyahoo.yahoo,

Alessandro Oppo: puntobriefnafpelin.de,

Alessandro Oppo: and you can find my email address.

Alessandro Oppo: Let's get in touch. We have to all work together in a very pragmatic way to reach a lot of people and,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, safe safe democracy, improve it so it withstands the challenges of time. Thank you, Thomas.

Thomas Lorenz: You're welcome. And if if you want to add anything else, otherwise,

Alessandro Oppo: thanks for your time. Thank you.