1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,320 Alessandro Oppo: I actually developed the project, out of the idea of annoying my mom, 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,400 Alessandro Oppo: who was always complaining about politics in our hometown, and, 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,440 Alessandro Oppo: I was like, I'm the wrong person to address. Talk to a member of parliament, and she had so many. 4 00:00:14,345 --> 00:00:15,945 Alessandro Oppo: To me it was excuses, 5 00:00:15,945 --> 00:00:20,745 Alessandro Oppo: so she didn't quite tell me one argument that was valid in my opinion, and I say, 6 00:00:20,985 --> 00:00:27,303 Alessandro Oppo: okay, I think a lot of people struggle with this because they want to address politics, but they don't dare to for 7 00:00:27,303 --> 00:00:32,760 whatever reason. Welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator podcast, and our guest of today is Thomas Lawrence. 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,640 Thomas Lorenz: And so thank you a lot, Thomas, for your time. 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:38,120 Alessandro Oppo: Grazie Perlivito. 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:39,480 Alessandro Oppo: Hi, Alessandro. 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:41,480 Thomas Lorenz: And 12 00:00:41,775 --> 00:00:44,175 Thomas Lorenz: would you like to tell us something about you? 13 00:00:46,015 --> 00:00:51,215 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, there's a lot to tell, but my most recent project, I will focus on that most. 14 00:00:51,535 --> 00:00:56,448 Alessandro Oppo: So I'm based in Germany. I used to live in in Bologna as well like Alessandro, so I speak a few words 15 00:00:56,448 --> 00:00:57,248 of Italian. 16 00:00:57,690 --> 00:01:00,570 Alessandro Oppo: But recently, I have developed a project 17 00:01:00,650 --> 00:01:05,930 Alessandro Oppo: here in Germany. It's called Brief Nach Berlin, like letter to parliament pretty much, 18 00:01:06,410 --> 00:01:07,210 Alessandro Oppo: and 19 00:01:07,370 --> 00:01:10,090 Alessandro Oppo: it helps people like you and me, citizens, 20 00:01:10,815 --> 00:01:11,615 Alessandro Oppo: to 21 00:01:11,615 --> 00:01:12,575 Alessandro Oppo: formulate 22 00:01:12,655 --> 00:01:16,895 Alessandro Oppo: a concern that they have or like a matter of interest and address it to their letter 23 00:01:17,215 --> 00:01:23,055 Alessandro Oppo: to to their member of parliament, be it in Berlin or at their state level or even in their local commune level. 24 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:28,820 Alessandro Oppo: And, yeah, I built, a little AI based tool, which is entirely based in in Europe, 25 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:30,180 Alessandro Oppo: to 26 00:01:30,260 --> 00:01:33,060 Alessandro Oppo: make the best letter, and then also I 27 00:01:33,220 --> 00:01:34,020 Alessandro Oppo: kick my, 28 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:39,695 Alessandro Oppo: my users in the ass to actually write it by hand. So they also have some sort of 29 00:01:40,175 --> 00:01:42,975 Alessandro Oppo: democratic feeling, and it also surpasses 30 00:01:42,975 --> 00:01:45,535 Alessandro Oppo: the entire written and email 31 00:01:46,175 --> 00:01:47,535 Alessandro Oppo: stack of letters 32 00:01:47,855 --> 00:01:49,455 Alessandro Oppo: on the parliament's desk 33 00:01:50,050 --> 00:01:54,370 Alessandro Oppo: because it it shows that you're more engaged, and I try to use that analog way. 34 00:01:54,770 --> 00:01:57,090 Thomas Lorenz: And I saw that you also have a T shirt. 35 00:01:57,570 --> 00:01:58,370 Thomas Lorenz: Yes. 36 00:01:58,370 --> 00:02:03,170 Alessandro Oppo: No. I recently made a T shirt, and I probably have to wear it. Yeah. Exactly. 37 00:02:03,570 --> 00:02:09,585 Thomas Lorenz: Thank you. So the project is becoming serious. I know you told me that it started as a small 38 00:02:10,145 --> 00:02:10,945 Thomas Lorenz: project. 39 00:02:11,745 --> 00:02:16,625 Alessandro Oppo: Yes. Exactly. It started, three and a half months ago, maybe four by now, more or less. 40 00:02:18,070 --> 00:02:26,063 Alessandro Oppo: And I actually developed the project, out of the idea of annoying my mom, who was always complaining about politics in our 41 00:02:26,063 --> 00:02:26,863 hometown, and, 42 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:31,910 Alessandro Oppo: I was like, I'm the wrong person to address. Talk to a member of parliament, and she had so many 43 00:02:32,815 --> 00:02:34,415 Alessandro Oppo: to me, it was excuses, 44 00:02:34,415 --> 00:02:40,596 Alessandro Oppo: so she didn't quite tell me one argument that was valid in my opinion, and I say, okay. I think a lot 45 00:02:40,596 --> 00:02:45,935 of people struggle with this because they want to address politics, but they don't dare to for whatever reason. 46 00:02:46,690 --> 00:02:47,490 Alessandro Oppo: So, 47 00:02:48,050 --> 00:02:52,610 Alessandro Oppo: I worked at a company that was working with AI to build a product 48 00:02:52,610 --> 00:02:54,050 Alessandro Oppo: and software, 49 00:02:54,370 --> 00:02:58,770 Alessandro Oppo: and coming from a political science background, I said I will develop 50 00:02:59,395 --> 00:03:03,715 Alessandro Oppo: a small tool that helps you figure out who you have to write your concern to, 51 00:03:04,115 --> 00:03:09,761 Alessandro Oppo: like who's the most eligible person to actually read the concern and who's able to change it. I find the address, I 52 00:03:09,761 --> 00:03:15,407 help you formulate the letter out of like two lines of what you want to complain about, And I told my mom, 53 00:03:15,407 --> 00:03:18,230 when I develop it, you have to write it by hand, 54 00:03:18,470 --> 00:03:24,292 Alessandro Oppo: and she gave me a handshake. She did it, and she, like three or four weeks later, she got called by a 55 00:03:24,292 --> 00:03:25,350 member, of parliament office, 56 00:03:26,875 --> 00:03:33,394 Alessandro Oppo: and she even got visited by the people, and they entirely solved her matter. And now my mom is like a big, 57 00:03:33,394 --> 00:03:34,875 how do you say, democracy 58 00:03:35,915 --> 00:03:36,875 Alessandro Oppo: multiplier 59 00:03:36,875 --> 00:03:38,155 Alessandro Oppo: in my hometown, 60 00:03:38,315 --> 00:03:42,315 Alessandro Oppo: and I said, I have to make this bigger. So that was like 61 00:03:41,530 --> 00:03:43,050 Alessandro Oppo: three or four months ago, 62 00:03:43,450 --> 00:03:44,890 Alessandro Oppo: and by 63 00:03:44,890 --> 00:03:47,130 Alessandro Oppo: today, it's almost 2,400 64 00:03:47,130 --> 00:03:49,050 Alessandro Oppo: people who have used the tool, 65 00:03:49,850 --> 00:03:51,850 Alessandro Oppo: and it's it's growing steadily. 66 00:03:52,490 --> 00:03:54,330 Alessandro Oppo: I've been in some newspapers, 67 00:03:54,845 --> 00:03:58,205 Alessandro Oppo: talked to a lot of people, and, yeah, tried to spread the news also 68 00:03:58,445 --> 00:04:03,805 Alessandro Oppo: in Europe. So, I'm entirely open source and people can double check it. I would like this 69 00:04:04,125 --> 00:04:07,165 Alessandro Oppo: tool, which is entirely free and financed by myself, 70 00:04:08,670 --> 00:04:12,270 Alessandro Oppo: to grow in Europe and in the world. So, yeah, 71 00:04:12,990 --> 00:04:15,630 Alessandro Oppo: I'm open to suggestions if you have any. 72 00:04:16,350 --> 00:04:21,230 Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. And the and the fact that you study political science is quite interesting because 73 00:04:21,845 --> 00:04:24,965 Thomas Lorenz: I think that maybe for a person that study, 74 00:04:25,285 --> 00:04:31,685 Thomas Lorenz: yeah, political science could be obvious that if you want to complain about something, you have to write to 75 00:04:32,245 --> 00:04:34,245 Thomas Lorenz: someone that is inside the 76 00:04:34,380 --> 00:04:36,460 Thomas Lorenz: the parliament or the municipality. 77 00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:39,580 Thomas Lorenz: But maybe for people that studied 78 00:04:39,580 --> 00:04:41,820 Thomas Lorenz: something else or they did something else, 79 00:04:42,140 --> 00:04:43,340 Thomas Lorenz: it's not so obvious. 80 00:04:43,820 --> 00:04:44,780 Thomas Lorenz: And so 81 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:47,580 Thomas Lorenz: they don't know what to do if there is an issue 82 00:04:47,945 --> 00:04:49,785 Thomas Lorenz: in the Yes. Exactly. 83 00:04:50,025 --> 00:04:56,869 Alessandro Oppo: I try to to pick that up, but also I try to, make it ridiculous to not believe your own excuse of 84 00:04:56,869 --> 00:04:58,425 not doing anything about complaining, 85 00:04:58,905 --> 00:05:02,905 Alessandro Oppo: because it's so easy and so fast. And, since I don't save any data, 86 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:09,360 Alessandro Oppo: I try to spread the words to write a letter to Berlin because that's what it means, and 87 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:18,575 Alessandro Oppo: I would like more and more people to actually use it and feel the power. And, Alessandro, I remember we talked a 88 00:05:19,375 --> 00:05:25,775 Alessandro Oppo: week ago also about somebody becoming mayor and they stopped receiving letter from from their citizens. 89 00:05:26,415 --> 00:05:33,385 Alessandro Oppo: And I hope more and more people actually soon dare to actually write a letter to their mayor, to their local member 90 00:05:33,385 --> 00:05:35,920 of parliament in their town, in their community, 91 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:42,480 Alessandro Oppo: to actually address what needs to be addressed, like maybe a missing parking lot, a missing bike lane, 92 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,800 Alessandro Oppo: a construction site that's never ending. 93 00:05:45,415 --> 00:05:47,575 Alessandro Oppo: We have that in both Italy and Germany, 94 00:05:48,615 --> 00:05:51,255 Alessandro Oppo: or maybe bad Internet connection at my house, 95 00:05:52,055 --> 00:06:00,081 Alessandro Oppo: which is also crucial infrastructure to a lot of people, especially to someone like me who studied political science and by accident 96 00:06:00,081 --> 00:06:01,175 actually got involved 97 00:06:01,710 --> 00:06:02,510 Alessandro Oppo: with 98 00:06:02,670 --> 00:06:04,670 Alessandro Oppo: artificial intelligence and building 99 00:06:04,910 --> 00:06:05,790 Alessandro Oppo: services 100 00:06:06,030 --> 00:06:07,550 Alessandro Oppo: with it on the internet, 101 00:06:08,270 --> 00:06:09,950 Alessandro Oppo: and this is my most 102 00:06:10,110 --> 00:06:11,630 Alessandro Oppo: fun project right now. 103 00:06:12,030 --> 00:06:15,470 Thomas Lorenz: Yeah, I think that this is one of the most exciting things about AI 104 00:06:15,895 --> 00:06:17,095 Thomas Lorenz: that allows 105 00:06:17,415 --> 00:06:19,095 Thomas Lorenz: all the people that have 106 00:06:19,655 --> 00:06:21,655 Thomas Lorenz: maybe knowledge about society, 107 00:06:21,655 --> 00:06:22,695 Thomas Lorenz: about politics 108 00:06:22,695 --> 00:06:23,575 Thomas Lorenz: to being 109 00:06:25,015 --> 00:06:31,655 Thomas Lorenz: they become able actually to create a project or to create something that can be useful to other people too. 110 00:06:33,630 --> 00:06:37,310 Thomas Lorenz: Because in the past, I mean, three years ago, you had to 111 00:06:37,710 --> 00:06:41,630 Thomas Lorenz: invest a lot of time and money to build, let's say, something like that. 112 00:06:42,110 --> 00:06:43,710 Thomas Lorenz: And you had also to 113 00:06:44,030 --> 00:06:48,975 Thomas Lorenz: to have the skills related to computer science. But often there is 114 00:06:51,295 --> 00:06:53,615 Thomas Lorenz: let's say, division of knowledge in society. 115 00:06:54,095 --> 00:06:56,095 Thomas Lorenz: So the people that know how to code, 116 00:06:56,575 --> 00:07:01,400 Thomas Lorenz: they're not maybe so interested or they don't have the knowledge about the political 117 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:04,040 Thomas Lorenz: structure. 118 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:05,640 Thomas Lorenz: And 119 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,400 Thomas Lorenz: and, yeah, I was wondering if you also had other ideas about 120 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,200 Thomas Lorenz: if you got in touch with other projects. 121 00:07:12,905 --> 00:07:14,105 Alessandro Oppo: I actually talked 122 00:07:14,585 --> 00:07:18,425 Alessandro Oppo: to a lot of people and since my project has been growing, so 123 00:07:18,905 --> 00:07:25,316 Alessandro Oppo: about three and a half months ago, it was picked up by one of the biggest politics podcasts of Germany called Lag 124 00:07:25,316 --> 00:07:28,230 derazione, like state of the union, state of the nation, 125 00:07:28,630 --> 00:07:29,430 Alessandro Oppo: and 126 00:07:29,590 --> 00:07:35,113 Alessandro Oppo: they spread the news. And ever since, it's been growing, and I've been interviewed by papers and and now by you or, 127 00:07:35,113 --> 00:07:36,870 like, other people who spread the idea. 128 00:07:38,475 --> 00:07:41,435 Alessandro Oppo: And, yeah, I try to expand my ideas, and I also have 129 00:07:41,995 --> 00:07:43,275 Alessandro Oppo: ideas to maybe 130 00:07:43,835 --> 00:07:47,275 Alessandro Oppo: develop other projects to strengthen the feeling or 131 00:07:47,915 --> 00:07:54,380 Alessandro Oppo: efficiency of of democracy, be it at the local level or even, like, on a state level or European level. 132 00:07:54,700 --> 00:08:02,243 Alessandro Oppo: So, should we come up with, another nice app idea in in this talk? I'm very open to, procrastinate with that as 133 00:08:02,243 --> 00:08:04,300 well. Oh, yeah. We can, have, 134 00:08:05,020 --> 00:08:06,460 Thomas Lorenz: have some ideas actually. 135 00:08:07,385 --> 00:08:09,145 Thomas Lorenz: Like Yeah. Let's let's go for it. 136 00:08:09,945 --> 00:08:12,105 Thomas Lorenz: Something that will be very interesting, 137 00:08:12,505 --> 00:08:14,825 Thomas Lorenz: is that, a lot of time in society, 138 00:08:15,385 --> 00:08:16,345 Thomas Lorenz: we think that, 139 00:08:18,105 --> 00:08:20,665 Thomas Lorenz: we don't realize that an issue that we have 140 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,960 Thomas Lorenz: maybe is not an individual issue, but a collective issue. 141 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,320 Thomas Lorenz: And I'll make this example. I think I did it in some other episodes 142 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,600 Thomas Lorenz: about, let's say, if I fight with my brother. 143 00:08:34,655 --> 00:08:37,935 Thomas Lorenz: So I can think that, I don't know, my brother is annoying. 144 00:08:39,055 --> 00:08:40,095 Thomas Lorenz: I can think that 145 00:08:41,855 --> 00:08:43,135 Thomas Lorenz: yeah. But then 146 00:08:43,455 --> 00:08:44,415 Thomas Lorenz: at the end, 147 00:08:44,895 --> 00:08:47,535 Thomas Lorenz: a lot of other people are fighting with their brothers, 148 00:08:47,970 --> 00:08:49,810 Thomas Lorenz: then it means that it's 149 00:08:50,210 --> 00:08:53,090 Thomas Lorenz: a collective issue. Maybe in our town, 150 00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:55,010 Thomas Lorenz: their homes are too small 151 00:08:55,250 --> 00:08:57,490 Thomas Lorenz: and we don't have a room for each other. 152 00:08:59,490 --> 00:09:00,850 Thomas Lorenz: Or could be something else. 153 00:09:01,645 --> 00:09:04,205 Thomas Lorenz: Like maybe, I don't know, I 154 00:09:04,605 --> 00:09:10,371 Thomas Lorenz: want to exercise, but I don't have a place where to go. So maybe there is not a public park and it 155 00:09:10,371 --> 00:09:12,205 is the same for many other people, 156 00:09:13,770 --> 00:09:19,530 Thomas Lorenz: but it's hard to realize it. Or maybe I want to stop smoking, I don't know, but all my friends are smoking. 157 00:09:21,770 --> 00:09:23,690 Thomas Lorenz: And yeah, a lot of times we think that 158 00:09:25,450 --> 00:09:27,370 Thomas Lorenz: an issue is just affecting us 159 00:09:27,605 --> 00:09:32,085 Thomas Lorenz: because of the condition that we have. But a lot of times it's a 160 00:09:32,885 --> 00:09:35,365 Thomas Lorenz: it's a society it's a problem that is 161 00:09:37,605 --> 00:09:44,180 Thomas Lorenz: is related to many other people. And I I think that it will be very nice to also think about something 162 00:09:45,620 --> 00:09:47,140 Thomas Lorenz: Mhmm. For this problem. 163 00:09:47,860 --> 00:09:49,940 Thomas Lorenz: But how to do it is 164 00:09:50,420 --> 00:09:56,054 Alessandro Oppo: is the question. I think you have to have a lot of data collecting and comparing it to it, so it had 165 00:09:56,054 --> 00:10:01,688 to be very strict in terms of how to deal with the data, and also a lot of people have to actually 166 00:10:01,688 --> 00:10:03,225 use it for the data to, 167 00:10:04,425 --> 00:10:09,590 Alessandro Oppo: to matter. Because if it's just four people in your neighborhood, it's it's a lot. It's more than zero, 168 00:10:09,910 --> 00:10:12,390 Alessandro Oppo: but it, cannot quite reliably, 169 00:10:12,550 --> 00:10:14,870 Alessandro Oppo: point to a certain kind of indicator. 170 00:10:14,950 --> 00:10:16,870 Alessandro Oppo: I think if a lot of people would use it, 171 00:10:17,750 --> 00:10:22,390 Alessandro Oppo: that could happen, and I think the data, I'm not quite sure, but the big AI companies, 172 00:10:22,845 --> 00:10:28,396 Alessandro Oppo: they do collect a lot of data, especially when you do not pay for using it, then you pay with your data 173 00:10:28,396 --> 00:10:29,405 as of any product, 174 00:10:29,725 --> 00:10:31,165 Alessandro Oppo: that you use in the internet. 175 00:10:31,565 --> 00:10:33,885 Alessandro Oppo: I think they actually maybe could, 176 00:10:34,445 --> 00:10:40,020 Alessandro Oppo: use it for this kind of thing. I'm not quite sure how they collect data to 177 00:10:40,420 --> 00:10:42,660 Alessandro Oppo: personalize their offer to you, 178 00:10:43,940 --> 00:10:50,620 Alessandro Oppo: but I think they could use their technology and their data collection for a good cause. I think me being a small 179 00:10:50,620 --> 00:10:56,085 person, that would be quite a challenge to get a lot of people to use it to complain. 180 00:10:56,645 --> 00:10:59,765 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. But I don't wanna I don't wanna say no. So maybe in the future, 181 00:11:00,885 --> 00:11:04,005 Alessandro Oppo: I can put my head together with some other people who want to build 182 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,320 Alessandro Oppo: something like this. I was dreaming 183 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,080 Alessandro Oppo: of some 184 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,960 Alessandro Oppo: sort of platform or, like, chatbot where people can get into 185 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:20,790 Alessandro Oppo: after they wrote their letter with Rief Nachmelyn because the process right now is you complain in a little text box, then 186 00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:21,825 the letter finds 187 00:11:21,825 --> 00:11:26,465 Alessandro Oppo: the person who you should address, so which political level is responsible, 188 00:11:26,785 --> 00:11:32,422 Alessandro Oppo: then helps you formulate your letter. You get kinda like a draft sent to your email box for how long it is, 189 00:11:32,422 --> 00:11:36,010 and, you can tweak it as well if it should be a bit more, 190 00:11:37,290 --> 00:11:41,050 Alessandro Oppo: polite or if it's a bit more pressing towards your politician. 191 00:11:41,690 --> 00:11:47,914 Alessandro Oppo: And then I ask you to actually copy it by hand. And I think how I perceive it right now, since a 192 00:11:47,914 --> 00:11:54,138 lot of people then also text me like, thank you. You helped me overcome my procrastination. I always wanted to do this, 193 00:11:54,138 --> 00:12:00,361 but I haven't never done it. And they feel very activated, and I think they are activated in a political way that 194 00:12:00,361 --> 00:12:01,210 they don't feel, 195 00:12:01,850 --> 00:12:08,010 Alessandro Oppo: like a like a passive citizen anymore, you know, like stuff does not happen to them, but right now they start to 196 00:12:08,010 --> 00:12:08,810 take action. 197 00:12:10,090 --> 00:12:12,410 Alessandro Oppo: And I was dreaming a bit of 198 00:12:12,935 --> 00:12:19,655 Alessandro Oppo: sending them an email with both the letter draft and also some instructions of how to make it the most effective outcome, 199 00:12:20,055 --> 00:12:25,655 Alessandro Oppo: but also give them the next step, you know, of going not the first, but the second step towards being 200 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,760 Alessandro Oppo: more democratic or more politically active. 201 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:30,680 Alessandro Oppo: And I was dreaming 202 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,640 Alessandro Oppo: in my head and discussing with some other people who are very engaged in civil society 203 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:41,568 Alessandro Oppo: what this app could be. So maybe a chatbot of saying where do you live, what do you want to do, what 204 00:12:41,568 --> 00:12:46,937 are your hobbies, how old are you, how how much time do you have each week, and maybe then it goes through 205 00:12:46,937 --> 00:12:48,645 a database and checks this kind of 206 00:12:49,125 --> 00:12:55,895 Alessandro Oppo: volunteer work would fit you perfectly. You will get a lot of live people, and next Tuesday at seven, you said you're 207 00:12:55,895 --> 00:12:59,280 free. You don't have anything to do on on Wednesday morning. 208 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,040 Alessandro Oppo: Why don't you go 209 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:02,160 Alessandro Oppo: help, 210 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:08,800 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, clean up the streets in your neighborhood? Some volunteers always meet up close to you, like, two minutes cycling. 211 00:13:09,225 --> 00:13:15,549 Alessandro Oppo: Or maybe it helps to go to an elderly home and reach to people with dementia or this kind of stuff. And 212 00:13:15,549 --> 00:13:21,874 I'm dreaming of of this kind of idea to connect one that I have and to kind of use habit stacking, you 213 00:13:21,874 --> 00:13:28,198 know, so I kind of like sent you an email, you want to change something, and then I give you the next 214 00:13:28,198 --> 00:13:33,660 step and say, you wanna go further and nudge and push you, further down the line of becoming more 215 00:13:34,155 --> 00:13:37,435 Alessandro Oppo: politically active. So, whoever is listening to 216 00:13:37,675 --> 00:13:40,075 Alessandro Oppo: us right now or also tomorrow, 217 00:13:41,355 --> 00:13:44,635 Alessandro Oppo: please let me know if you have ideas, if you want to contribute, 218 00:13:44,715 --> 00:13:51,885 Alessandro Oppo: if you want to bring a Brief Nach Berlin letter to parliament to your country, I'm more than, open to help, to 219 00:13:51,885 --> 00:13:53,840 spread the word, gather ideas because, 220 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,240 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, democracy is 221 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,080 Alessandro Oppo: a bit under attack in Europe and all over the world these days. 222 00:14:01,265 --> 00:14:02,065 Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. 223 00:14:02,625 --> 00:14:03,665 Thomas Lorenz: And these things about, 224 00:14:04,145 --> 00:14:06,785 Thomas Lorenz: AI companies that collect a lot of data, 225 00:14:07,105 --> 00:14:09,265 Thomas Lorenz: let me think many times about, 226 00:14:10,305 --> 00:14:16,747 Thomas Lorenz: also how much they know about society. I mean, I think it was the same also before AI if we think about 227 00:14:16,747 --> 00:14:17,547 Google 228 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:25,600 Thomas Lorenz: and other big tech. But with AI, it's even more explicit because we ask questions 229 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,920 Thomas Lorenz: that are very specific, and so 230 00:14:28,455 --> 00:14:30,215 Thomas Lorenz: they know a lot about us. 231 00:14:30,695 --> 00:14:34,855 Thomas Lorenz: And, also, I was wondering, what if in the future they also want 232 00:14:35,735 --> 00:14:40,055 Thomas Lorenz: because as an example, for Charge GPT, it will be way easy 233 00:14:40,890 --> 00:14:44,170 Thomas Lorenz: it will be very easy to understand what citizens 234 00:14:44,170 --> 00:14:46,170 Thomas Lorenz: want in a certain country 235 00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:49,210 Thomas Lorenz: and also the kind of language to 236 00:14:49,610 --> 00:14:50,970 Thomas Lorenz: build a narration 237 00:14:51,050 --> 00:14:53,130 Thomas Lorenz: that can be effective. 238 00:14:53,210 --> 00:14:56,645 Thomas Lorenz: So I was wondering what if they, you know, if they 239 00:14:57,365 --> 00:15:03,365 Thomas Lorenz: also become part of the political environment. I mean, they're already they're already part 240 00:15:03,365 --> 00:15:05,045 Thomas Lorenz: of the political environment, 241 00:15:05,365 --> 00:15:06,805 Thomas Lorenz: but not so directly. 242 00:15:07,365 --> 00:15:08,165 Thomas Lorenz: And 243 00:15:09,930 --> 00:15:12,890 Thomas Lorenz: because it's true that you have to have a lot of data to 244 00:15:15,370 --> 00:15:20,250 Thomas Lorenz: discover all the issues that, are not affecting just one person, but, 245 00:15:20,970 --> 00:15:22,170 Thomas Lorenz: broadly all the 246 00:15:22,635 --> 00:15:23,515 Thomas Lorenz: society. 247 00:15:23,915 --> 00:15:26,715 Thomas Lorenz: So I don't know if you had any thoughts about 248 00:15:28,875 --> 00:15:29,915 Thomas Lorenz: about this 249 00:15:30,315 --> 00:15:31,115 Thomas Lorenz: or maybe 250 00:15:31,835 --> 00:15:36,155 Alessandro Oppo: I I think to to speak about one aspect of what you just mentioned, 251 00:15:37,060 --> 00:15:38,180 Alessandro Oppo: What one 252 00:15:38,180 --> 00:15:44,078 Alessandro Oppo: could do right now is analyze how Google is used because you can see the keywords that are used. I think you 253 00:15:44,078 --> 00:15:48,100 can also filter it down towards certain regions in a country or a city even. 254 00:15:48,580 --> 00:15:51,780 Alessandro Oppo: I'm not quite sure about this, but this could be an indicator that you could 255 00:15:52,245 --> 00:15:58,698 Alessandro Oppo: tap onto right now. But since Google is a bit in the decline because a lot of people also turn to ChatGPT 256 00:15:58,698 --> 00:16:01,925 and other AI platforms to look for answers that are quick, 257 00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:06,420 Alessandro Oppo: I think it might not be as representative 258 00:16:06,420 --> 00:16:10,100 Alessandro Oppo: and as vastly used as it was, I don't know, two or three years ago. 259 00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:14,740 Alessandro Oppo: But, yeah, I feel that there is also a 260 00:16:15,060 --> 00:16:19,620 Alessandro Oppo: potential danger. I'm very I I enjoy using artificial intelligence as a tool, 261 00:16:20,395 --> 00:16:25,195 Alessandro Oppo: but I also see the potential harm it could do to societies 262 00:16:25,755 --> 00:16:30,715 Alessandro Oppo: because it makes it so easy to not ask any human anymore or to go into conflict and 263 00:16:31,115 --> 00:16:33,675 Alessandro Oppo: it just helps more individualization, 264 00:16:33,755 --> 00:16:39,790 Alessandro Oppo: isolation a little bit, but it also gives us the illusion of a perfect answer. So if nobody 265 00:16:40,270 --> 00:16:46,270 Alessandro Oppo: discusses anything anymore, we ask CHIPTY and there is one answer coming, and it's fast, reliable, and sounds 266 00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:47,710 Alessandro Oppo: cause 267 00:16:47,870 --> 00:16:49,070 Alessandro Oppo: how do you say possible to us, 268 00:16:50,015 --> 00:16:56,895 Alessandro Oppo: it it is a heuristic or maybe a lazy heuristic of today's world to to just believe it, not challenge the thought. 269 00:16:58,655 --> 00:16:59,855 Alessandro Oppo: But in general, 270 00:17:00,815 --> 00:17:02,895 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, I'm very skeptical towards 271 00:17:04,590 --> 00:17:06,590 Alessandro Oppo: the power being abused, 272 00:17:06,830 --> 00:17:09,070 Alessandro Oppo: of this super powerful technology 273 00:17:09,390 --> 00:17:10,190 Alessandro Oppo: to 274 00:17:10,830 --> 00:17:12,110 Alessandro Oppo: shape laws, 275 00:17:12,670 --> 00:17:14,990 Alessandro Oppo: in in the European Commission to, 276 00:17:16,275 --> 00:17:17,075 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, 277 00:17:18,035 --> 00:17:23,795 Alessandro Oppo: to use a lot of power and dependence because right now, since it's so cheap or apparently so cheap, 278 00:17:24,515 --> 00:17:31,669 Alessandro Oppo: in the short term for both companies, individual people, and also for people like me to use it, I will get very 279 00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:38,824 used to using it, and should they soon raise prices, which they will have to because they're all in debt, I think, 280 00:17:38,824 --> 00:17:41,100 the only exception is NVIDIA right now. 281 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:45,420 Alessandro Oppo: They're battling for who wins the monopoly race 282 00:17:45,975 --> 00:17:49,335 Alessandro Oppo: and then, raise prices heavily, I guess. 283 00:17:50,935 --> 00:17:52,215 Alessandro Oppo: And, yeah, 284 00:17:52,855 --> 00:17:59,029 Alessandro Oppo: I think we're all very dependent in the future on this kind of technology, and then we have to pay at one 285 00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:59,829 point. So, 286 00:18:01,270 --> 00:18:02,470 Thomas Lorenz: yeah. Absolutely. 287 00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:07,110 Thomas Lorenz: But, and also from our cultural point of view, I saw that, 288 00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:11,590 Thomas Lorenz: I mean, it is through what you said about 289 00:18:12,025 --> 00:18:18,985 Thomas Lorenz: the reply of an LLM that is, like, you know, it's perfect, credible, easy to to read. 290 00:18:19,625 --> 00:18:21,385 Thomas Lorenz: And, I also saw that, 291 00:18:21,865 --> 00:18:25,545 Thomas Lorenz: well, in the past to do, like, a complex project, you had to, 292 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:28,900 Thomas Lorenz: yeah. Or to have money 293 00:18:29,060 --> 00:18:31,540 Thomas Lorenz: and so that you could pay someone else, 294 00:18:31,940 --> 00:18:34,900 Thomas Lorenz: or you had to cooperate with other people. 295 00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:37,700 Thomas Lorenz: But nowadays, it is like 296 00:18:38,195 --> 00:18:41,475 Thomas Lorenz: it is easier to maybe relate to a 297 00:18:41,715 --> 00:18:43,475 Thomas Lorenz: to talk to an LLM 298 00:18:43,555 --> 00:18:44,675 Thomas Lorenz: and tell 299 00:18:44,675 --> 00:18:51,795 Thomas Lorenz: to the AI what to do instead of having to deal with other people and to collaborate with them 300 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:53,040 Thomas Lorenz: because 301 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,440 Thomas Lorenz: collaboration is very hard, 302 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,200 Thomas Lorenz: but still I think that is something important. 303 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:07,836 Thomas Lorenz: But, yeah, I also understand, and it's also happened to me that sometimes instead of having to deal with other people, I 304 00:19:07,836 --> 00:19:10,045 was just going to Jajibati or or Yeah. 305 00:19:12,925 --> 00:19:14,445 Thomas Lorenz: This is something 306 00:19:15,565 --> 00:19:18,845 Thomas Lorenz: that, I saw and, but I think it will be 307 00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:21,350 Thomas Lorenz: very important, 308 00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:25,270 Thomas Lorenz: for society to collaborate on different issues. 309 00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:26,790 Thomas Lorenz: And also we 310 00:19:27,910 --> 00:19:28,790 Thomas Lorenz: Dana, please. 311 00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:30,550 Alessandro Oppo: I 312 00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:38,093 Alessandro Oppo: think that it can also be like a false friend in the way that I think the pace that we are all 313 00:19:38,093 --> 00:19:39,045 expected to actually, 314 00:19:40,885 --> 00:19:45,765 Alessandro Oppo: put work in, put labor in to produce something, be it code or, I don't know, something at work, 315 00:19:46,485 --> 00:19:47,285 Alessandro Oppo: we 316 00:19:47,525 --> 00:19:52,440 Alessandro Oppo: are expected to be more and more efficient with this tool. So, I can imagine 317 00:19:52,520 --> 00:20:00,200 Alessandro Oppo: that stress levels will rise and people, might be more likely to to burn out. And also, in my case, 318 00:20:00,775 --> 00:20:01,575 Alessandro Oppo: I have, 319 00:20:01,895 --> 00:20:08,689 Alessandro Oppo: worked a lot with artificial intelligence and I feel very confident in using it to producing code even though I'm not I 320 00:20:08,689 --> 00:20:15,175 I can read code a little bit, but I could never have created Rief Nachbelein so fast and so well working 321 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,480 Alessandro Oppo: without this technology. So super powerful to also boost AI, and I enjoy using it 322 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:27,520 Alessandro Oppo: as a first step for people to actually doing something analog and use their pen and write their letter and feel 323 00:20:28,025 --> 00:20:32,025 Alessandro Oppo: the paper and, you know, lick the stamp, the Franco Vollo, 324 00:20:32,105 --> 00:20:38,353 Alessandro Oppo: put it on on the letter and put it send it away. It's an act. It's very cognitive. It requires a lot 325 00:20:38,353 --> 00:20:43,465 of senses, you know, like touch and feel and, yeah, maybe even taste depending on on your stamp. 326 00:20:44,740 --> 00:20:46,500 Alessandro Oppo: And I think you will remember 327 00:20:46,660 --> 00:20:53,032 Alessandro Oppo: sending a letter that you wrote one one page, one and a half, or two pages because most of the people, they 328 00:20:53,032 --> 00:20:55,060 do not remember writing the last letter 329 00:20:55,380 --> 00:21:01,267 Alessandro Oppo: because it was so long ago. But if you do today, you will I can ask you last year, did you write 330 00:21:01,267 --> 00:21:04,745 a letter to your member of parliament? And you will very confidently say, 331 00:21:04,905 --> 00:21:12,176 Alessandro Oppo: yes. But if I ask you about what you did on on ChannelGPT or, on WhatsApp or texted, you will not be 332 00:21:12,176 --> 00:21:19,117 able to be so sure because there's very little friction involved, there's very few senses involved, and we do that transactionally 333 00:21:19,117 --> 00:21:21,100 so many times in a day. 334 00:21:21,980 --> 00:21:24,140 Alessandro Oppo: But also when it comes to artificial intelligence, 335 00:21:25,035 --> 00:21:27,355 Alessandro Oppo: I look forward to how 336 00:21:27,995 --> 00:21:34,475 Alessandro Oppo: the European Union will be able to regulate in terms of privacy and also market share power, 337 00:21:34,715 --> 00:21:36,955 Alessandro Oppo: but also allow us to profit 338 00:21:36,955 --> 00:21:39,035 Alessandro Oppo: in a good way to use this 339 00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:40,650 Alessandro Oppo: technology, 340 00:21:40,890 --> 00:21:44,410 Alessandro Oppo: but it can also lead, and that is also was in my case, 341 00:21:44,650 --> 00:21:45,770 Alessandro Oppo: to something 342 00:21:46,250 --> 00:21:48,970 Alessandro Oppo: I would say is productive procrastination. 343 00:21:49,370 --> 00:21:55,860 Alessandro Oppo: So, you feel like you're doing so many things at once and you have this genius idea of this new app or 344 00:21:55,860 --> 00:21:57,335 this automation that helps you. 345 00:21:57,655 --> 00:21:59,255 Alessandro Oppo: But I think a lot of people, 346 00:22:00,215 --> 00:22:05,015 Alessandro Oppo: including me, also have been fallen into the trap of perfectionizing 347 00:22:05,015 --> 00:22:08,855 Alessandro Oppo: something in silence and making it great for other people to use or even for myself, 348 00:22:09,370 --> 00:22:11,690 Alessandro Oppo: but in the end, I was just 349 00:22:12,970 --> 00:22:13,850 Alessandro Oppo: procrastinating, 350 00:22:13,850 --> 00:22:15,130 Alessandro Oppo: but it felt productive. 351 00:22:15,610 --> 00:22:16,410 Alessandro Oppo: So, 352 00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:18,970 Alessandro Oppo: I think it can also, 353 00:22:19,130 --> 00:22:19,930 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, 354 00:22:21,545 --> 00:22:27,381 Alessandro Oppo: make us fall in into this kind of trap as well because we can do so much in such little time, but 355 00:22:27,381 --> 00:22:31,625 if we step back and breathe and maybe not look at a screen for that second, 356 00:22:32,025 --> 00:22:38,606 Alessandro Oppo: do we even need what we built or do we even need to write so many emails? But what about sending just 357 00:22:38,606 --> 00:22:40,700 one letter to parliament instead of five, 358 00:22:41,260 --> 00:22:44,140 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, AI emails to five constituents? 359 00:22:45,020 --> 00:22:46,860 Alessandro Oppo: So I would say go 360 00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:49,740 Alessandro Oppo: when you want something effective to happen, 361 00:22:50,425 --> 00:22:53,225 Alessandro Oppo: take your time and write a more personalized 362 00:22:53,465 --> 00:22:56,265 Alessandro Oppo: letter or construct something that is 363 00:22:56,825 --> 00:22:58,505 Alessandro Oppo: where you actually know the proven 364 00:22:58,905 --> 00:22:59,785 Alessandro Oppo: benefit 365 00:22:59,785 --> 00:23:02,025 Alessandro Oppo: will occur than to just 366 00:23:02,265 --> 00:23:04,985 Alessandro Oppo: start doing it and lose two weeks of doing it, 367 00:23:06,150 --> 00:23:07,590 Alessandro Oppo: but feeling productive, 368 00:23:07,670 --> 00:23:10,070 Alessandro Oppo: but I think it can also lead a bit to anxiety. 369 00:23:10,150 --> 00:23:13,510 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know if I was very clear about, what I was just said. 370 00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:16,790 Thomas Lorenz: No. I think yes. I understood you. Okay. Good. 371 00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:18,790 Thomas Lorenz: And, 372 00:23:20,165 --> 00:23:21,845 Thomas Lorenz: yeah, I was also thinking about, 373 00:23:22,485 --> 00:23:31,125 Thomas Lorenz: before about the fact that, your project is, quite simple in a way because it doesn't, do anything so 374 00:23:31,125 --> 00:23:31,925 Thomas Lorenz: complex, 375 00:23:32,340 --> 00:23:33,380 Thomas Lorenz: But 376 00:23:33,380 --> 00:23:35,780 Thomas Lorenz: it's simple in a good way so that people 377 00:23:36,180 --> 00:23:37,140 Thomas Lorenz: understand 378 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:37,940 Thomas Lorenz: what 379 00:23:38,420 --> 00:23:39,780 Thomas Lorenz: the tool is doing. 380 00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:42,820 Thomas Lorenz: Because I think on one side, probably 381 00:23:43,140 --> 00:23:45,140 Thomas Lorenz: I could also go to and 382 00:23:45,140 --> 00:23:50,235 Thomas Lorenz: write this issue down, write me a letter and find who is the 383 00:23:50,635 --> 00:23:52,875 Thomas Lorenz: the person I should write the letter to. 384 00:23:54,795 --> 00:23:55,595 Thomas Lorenz: But 385 00:23:55,835 --> 00:23:57,995 Thomas Lorenz: maybe many people don't have this 386 00:23:59,995 --> 00:24:04,640 Thomas Lorenz: I mean, it is easier if there is a tool. I just go there, and I don't have to register. 387 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:09,040 Thomas Lorenz: And, yeah, I totally agree also about the fact of procrastination, 388 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,520 Thomas Lorenz: and I've seen it also myself, 389 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,120 Thomas Lorenz: the on other friends 390 00:24:13,515 --> 00:24:15,115 Thomas Lorenz: and people that I know. 391 00:24:17,835 --> 00:24:19,435 Thomas Lorenz: And and also about this, 392 00:24:21,115 --> 00:24:23,915 Thomas Lorenz: before I was talking about collaboration 393 00:24:24,635 --> 00:24:28,315 Thomas Lorenz: and nowadays with the software being so easy and cheap, 394 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,680 Thomas Lorenz: I think that collaboration 395 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,040 Thomas Lorenz: is even more important because otherwise, I don't know, you build your tool in Germany. 396 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,760 Thomas Lorenz: I build the same tool in Italy, 397 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,800 Thomas Lorenz: but maybe we can have like a sort of 398 00:24:42,925 --> 00:24:46,845 Thomas Lorenz: cooperation. I don't know. You build the back end, they build the front end, the 399 00:24:48,045 --> 00:24:49,725 Thomas Lorenz: different ideas integrated. 400 00:24:49,885 --> 00:24:51,325 Thomas Lorenz: And, also, there is a 401 00:24:53,165 --> 00:24:56,845 Thomas Lorenz: yeah. I mean, we will save both human energy and also 402 00:24:57,660 --> 00:24:59,100 Thomas Lorenz: electric energy. 403 00:24:59,580 --> 00:25:00,380 Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. 404 00:25:00,940 --> 00:25:05,740 Alessandro Oppo: And we can have more free time. I mean, that is a nice thing because in this very 405 00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:12,408 Alessandro Oppo: hyper stressed world, I would say, where we are all, you know, on our phones constantly and everything blinks and we get 406 00:25:12,408 --> 00:25:13,208 notifications, 407 00:25:13,395 --> 00:25:15,155 Alessandro Oppo: it's also nice to 408 00:25:15,395 --> 00:25:22,005 Alessandro Oppo: to shut off every now and then. And I struggle with that myself as well because it's so tempting to give in 409 00:25:22,005 --> 00:25:28,314 to this technology, which is perfectly designed by psychologists and very capable and smart people to actually draw my attention towards 410 00:25:28,314 --> 00:25:29,114 those platforms. 411 00:25:30,050 --> 00:25:31,810 Alessandro Oppo: But, yeah, as you said, I tried to 412 00:25:32,210 --> 00:25:34,050 Alessandro Oppo: make the tool so simple, 413 00:25:34,370 --> 00:25:37,570 Alessandro Oppo: and I did not reinvent the reinvent the world. 414 00:25:37,970 --> 00:25:38,850 Alessandro Oppo: But 415 00:25:39,730 --> 00:25:41,570 Alessandro Oppo: it actually just looks for 416 00:25:42,425 --> 00:25:44,265 Alessandro Oppo: using your matter, checking 417 00:25:44,985 --> 00:25:50,637 Alessandro Oppo: it has, like, a mapping in the background of who is responsible for your postcode. So you put in your your ZIP 418 00:25:50,637 --> 00:25:56,289 code, which in Germany are very simple. I think in Italy and Portugal where I lived before, it's a bit more, bit 419 00:25:56,289 --> 00:25:57,830 more tough, but you can find, 420 00:25:58,550 --> 00:26:02,950 Alessandro Oppo: an easy mapping service online. Most of what I used was open source as well. 421 00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:08,785 Alessandro Oppo: And that's what also led me to build it open source to both strengthen credibility, 422 00:26:08,865 --> 00:26:12,545 Alessandro Oppo: but also to say, okay. Here's something so simple, and it's super effective. 423 00:26:12,705 --> 00:26:13,985 Alessandro Oppo: A lot of people feel, 424 00:26:14,465 --> 00:26:16,145 Alessandro Oppo: like they're civically engaged. 425 00:26:16,865 --> 00:26:20,945 Alessandro Oppo: They write letters to their parliaments to be more in touch with citizens and, 426 00:26:21,185 --> 00:26:21,985 Alessandro Oppo: politicians, 427 00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:27,730 Alessandro Oppo: which I, think is a big struggle in today's world of multi corporate interests, 428 00:26:29,810 --> 00:26:33,650 Alessandro Oppo: and I decided to to go open source. So other people in Italy, 429 00:26:33,730 --> 00:26:34,530 Alessandro Oppo: in, 430 00:26:34,770 --> 00:26:36,450 Alessandro Oppo: Czech Republic, in 431 00:26:36,845 --> 00:26:37,805 Alessandro Oppo: Poland, 432 00:26:37,885 --> 00:26:45,405 Alessandro Oppo: in Portugal, or even The US or wherever people are listening from, it's super easy to clone my app to your country, 433 00:26:46,925 --> 00:26:52,360 Alessandro Oppo: and I heavily invite you to do so and contact me. I put it all up. Everything is, 434 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,040 Alessandro Oppo: is transparent, 435 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,480 Alessandro Oppo: especially to save this time. It may be 436 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,320 Alessandro Oppo: to, to not start from zero if you want to build it in Italy, 437 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:02,920 Alessandro Oppo: but to start at 80%, 438 00:27:03,185 --> 00:27:07,825 Alessandro Oppo: and you could push it easy to 90 to a 100% of a working prototype 439 00:27:07,905 --> 00:27:08,705 Alessandro Oppo: and then, 440 00:27:09,025 --> 00:27:15,185 Alessandro Oppo: start building it on your own. So I I heavily embraced this, this open source boost in the past years. 441 00:27:16,570 --> 00:27:18,570 Thomas Lorenz: And I wanted to ask you, 442 00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:20,490 Thomas Lorenz: like, a more 443 00:27:20,810 --> 00:27:24,330 Thomas Lorenz: political question, like, what is democracy for you? 444 00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:26,410 Thomas Lorenz: And also how 445 00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:30,330 Thomas Lorenz: do you think that democracy 446 00:27:30,330 --> 00:27:31,450 Thomas Lorenz: could evolve 447 00:27:32,115 --> 00:27:34,275 Thomas Lorenz: if we use this 448 00:27:34,275 --> 00:27:36,995 Thomas Lorenz: kind of tool? So if there is more participation, 449 00:27:36,995 --> 00:27:37,795 Thomas Lorenz: basically. 450 00:27:38,755 --> 00:27:39,555 Alessandro Oppo: Mhmm. 451 00:27:40,035 --> 00:27:43,075 Alessandro Oppo: I think back in the day for me, democracy was 452 00:27:43,155 --> 00:27:50,047 Alessandro Oppo: voting every four years, at least in Germany on a on a national level or every two years if you count, you 453 00:27:50,047 --> 00:27:55,060 know, the the switch between or depending on where you live for states, national, and community. 454 00:27:55,540 --> 00:27:57,140 Alessandro Oppo: But today, it is so much more. 455 00:27:58,765 --> 00:28:01,965 Alessandro Oppo: Democracy for me was also being able to 456 00:28:02,525 --> 00:28:03,885 Alessandro Oppo: to live in Bologna 457 00:28:03,885 --> 00:28:09,645 Alessandro Oppo: and studying Bologna with Erasmus or going to Lisbon where I where I have lived almost four years 458 00:28:10,125 --> 00:28:13,405 Alessandro Oppo: in such an easy and safe way where people cooperate. 459 00:28:14,140 --> 00:28:15,580 Alessandro Oppo: And for me, it is, 460 00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:18,300 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, the closest thing we come to freedom 461 00:28:19,740 --> 00:28:20,540 Alessandro Oppo: and, 462 00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:23,980 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, also freedom of expression. 463 00:28:24,620 --> 00:28:27,100 Alessandro Oppo: I know these are very big terms, 464 00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:28,700 Alessandro Oppo: but I think 465 00:28:29,145 --> 00:28:35,818 Alessandro Oppo: to me it is the the water that I swim in pretty much, and I want to to preserve it and and 466 00:28:35,818 --> 00:28:36,618 strengthen it. 467 00:28:36,825 --> 00:28:38,425 Alessandro Oppo: And I think democracy 468 00:28:38,505 --> 00:28:45,158 Alessandro Oppo: will evolve. It has to evolve. I mean, that's what people do in parliament every day. And maybe for short periods of 469 00:28:45,158 --> 00:28:49,090 time, it goes into a wrong, very reactive way and not a very 470 00:28:49,490 --> 00:28:50,370 Alessandro Oppo: proactive, 471 00:28:51,810 --> 00:28:53,730 Alessandro Oppo: vision following approach, 472 00:28:54,130 --> 00:28:56,130 Alessandro Oppo: which I think has to be highly 473 00:28:56,755 --> 00:28:57,715 Alessandro Oppo: sustainable, 474 00:28:58,435 --> 00:29:00,915 Alessandro Oppo: integrating more people and more opinions, 475 00:29:02,035 --> 00:29:04,915 Alessandro Oppo: and establishing and strengthening formats 476 00:29:04,995 --> 00:29:06,035 Alessandro Oppo: and structures 477 00:29:06,195 --> 00:29:12,275 Alessandro Oppo: so people can get more into exchange. So when I talk to people that are outside of my own political belief bubble, 478 00:29:12,730 --> 00:29:17,896 Alessandro Oppo: that I don't need to be afraid that they take over. But I think, yeah, I I don't agree with you, but 479 00:29:17,896 --> 00:29:20,010 I have to respect you in a certain letter 480 00:29:20,570 --> 00:29:22,570 Alessandro Oppo: way. And I think technology can 481 00:29:22,810 --> 00:29:25,050 Alessandro Oppo: help to bring people together, 482 00:29:25,290 --> 00:29:29,235 Alessandro Oppo: but right now, it is heavily abused for specific interests 483 00:29:29,315 --> 00:29:31,795 Alessandro Oppo: to divide us into very individual, 484 00:29:32,595 --> 00:29:36,675 Alessandro Oppo: bubbles to shout, to seek attention and emotionalize. 485 00:29:37,235 --> 00:29:39,475 Alessandro Oppo: And I 486 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,400 Alessandro Oppo: remember when I was at school, 487 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,400 Alessandro Oppo: and I was, in a political science class at my school, 488 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,640 Alessandro Oppo: and I was like, oh, this is so boring. 489 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,280 Alessandro Oppo: You know, because I learned how the political levels were working, what bureaucracy 490 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,775 Alessandro Oppo: is, how do you vote, how's the chancellor in check with the parliament and the opposition, 491 00:29:57,175 --> 00:29:59,015 Alessandro Oppo: and blah blah blah. And 492 00:29:59,335 --> 00:30:01,255 Alessandro Oppo: looking at today's news 493 00:30:01,575 --> 00:30:04,375 Alessandro Oppo: from across the pond or even in Europe or 494 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:11,233 Alessandro Oppo: The Middle East or whatever you want to call different regions of the world. I wish it was boring again. I know 495 00:30:11,233 --> 00:30:16,080 it's a very Euro centric way of looking at it because it was very boring in Germany, 496 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,280 Alessandro Oppo: for example, at the beginning of the two thousands when I was at school, 497 00:30:21,475 --> 00:30:25,875 Alessandro Oppo: But I hope a lot more regions go back to that kind of state where politics is 498 00:30:26,275 --> 00:30:33,885 Alessandro Oppo: is a more calm way of dealing with actual problems to not solve them because it's a continuous thing. There is nothing 499 00:30:33,885 --> 00:30:37,690 you can solve in politics eternally, and it's it's good forever, 500 00:30:38,570 --> 00:30:41,930 Alessandro Oppo: but that people can come together in a very constructive way, 501 00:30:42,650 --> 00:30:44,010 Alessandro Oppo: ask the politicians 502 00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:46,410 Alessandro Oppo: to to be responsible 503 00:30:46,410 --> 00:30:47,690 Alessandro Oppo: with their vote, 504 00:30:48,170 --> 00:30:48,970 Alessandro Oppo: and, 505 00:30:49,665 --> 00:30:53,345 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, ensure that we have a democratic future in in front of us. 506 00:30:53,745 --> 00:30:55,905 Thomas Lorenz: And have you had any thought about, 507 00:30:56,145 --> 00:30:56,945 Thomas Lorenz: I don't know, 508 00:30:57,345 --> 00:31:00,785 Thomas Lorenz: because now we have a representative democracy that is, 509 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:04,400 Thomas Lorenz: let's say, the 510 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,520 Thomas Lorenz: the old Greeks, they 511 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,560 Thomas Lorenz: would have they would not have called it democracy. 512 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,000 Thomas Lorenz: Mhmm. 513 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:20,765 Thomas Lorenz: And so I was wondering because now technology also allows people to, let's say, vote about everything 514 00:31:20,845 --> 00:31:21,645 Thomas Lorenz: or 515 00:31:21,805 --> 00:31:22,605 Thomas Lorenz: maybe 516 00:31:22,605 --> 00:31:23,405 Thomas Lorenz: to 517 00:31:23,885 --> 00:31:25,245 Thomas Lorenz: to comment about, 518 00:31:25,485 --> 00:31:30,445 Thomas Lorenz: policies and so on. So I don't know if it could be a direct democracy, 519 00:31:31,460 --> 00:31:33,060 Thomas Lorenz: direct and representative 520 00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:33,860 Thomas Lorenz: together. 521 00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:37,540 Thomas Lorenz: But, yeah, I'm very curious about, 522 00:31:38,820 --> 00:31:42,980 Thomas Lorenz: what is the next democracy, let's say, the next, possible 523 00:31:43,620 --> 00:31:44,500 Thomas Lorenz: democracy 524 00:31:45,105 --> 00:31:45,905 Thomas Lorenz: and, 525 00:31:45,905 --> 00:31:50,945 Thomas Lorenz: yeah, how we can use technology in the best way because a lot of times we use it, 526 00:31:51,985 --> 00:31:53,025 Thomas Lorenz: or to 527 00:31:53,745 --> 00:31:55,265 Thomas Lorenz: yeah. Maybe for the bad, 528 00:31:56,145 --> 00:31:59,025 Thomas Lorenz: not not for the right goals, let's say. Mhmm. 529 00:31:59,740 --> 00:32:02,460 Thomas Lorenz: Also, as you say, the social networks, are not made 530 00:32:03,820 --> 00:32:06,060 Thomas Lorenz: they're made to to to 531 00:32:06,780 --> 00:32:09,100 Thomas Lorenz: for us to stay in specific bubbles. 532 00:32:09,820 --> 00:32:10,620 Thomas Lorenz: And, 533 00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:13,705 Thomas Lorenz: yeah, I'm very curious how we can use technology, 534 00:32:14,345 --> 00:32:15,625 Thomas Lorenz: also to 535 00:32:16,825 --> 00:32:19,305 Thomas Lorenz: yeah. Let's say to have a boring political, 536 00:32:20,745 --> 00:32:24,265 Thomas Lorenz: environment. Because, when the political environment is interesting, 537 00:32:24,265 --> 00:32:25,705 Thomas Lorenz: it means that 538 00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:28,550 Thomas Lorenz: there are bad times. 539 00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:29,510 Thomas Lorenz: Usually, 540 00:32:29,510 --> 00:32:31,270 Thomas Lorenz: dictatorships, civil wars. 541 00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:38,459 Alessandro Oppo: It it's it's polarizing. I mean, boring can also mean, maybe for the people in Russia, it's very boring because they cannot 542 00:32:38,459 --> 00:32:40,870 change anything anyway. They just watch the news. 543 00:32:43,085 --> 00:32:48,841 Alessandro Oppo: So we have, like, two sided thing. I think in a democracy that's well working. What I meant with boring, it was, 544 00:32:48,841 --> 00:32:52,765 okay, stuff is happening, and it's happening for the good, and it's kind of rational 545 00:32:53,005 --> 00:33:00,345 Alessandro Oppo: to the challenges that we face as a group, as a huge anonymous group of, let's say, the the people of Germany, 546 00:33:00,345 --> 00:33:01,680 of Italy, of Portugal. 547 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,640 Alessandro Oppo: But democracy 548 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,160 Alessandro Oppo: and and tech, 549 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,480 Alessandro Oppo: they can go 550 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,680 Alessandro Oppo: there will always be a struggle, I think, in between. 551 00:33:12,445 --> 00:33:17,405 Alessandro Oppo: But if you find and create laws and, institutions 552 00:33:17,725 --> 00:33:19,325 Alessandro Oppo: that incentivize 553 00:33:19,325 --> 00:33:20,845 Alessandro Oppo: democracy boosting, 554 00:33:21,085 --> 00:33:21,965 Alessandro Oppo: behavior, 555 00:33:23,085 --> 00:33:26,125 Alessandro Oppo: I think technology as a whole can 556 00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:27,550 Alessandro Oppo: aid 557 00:33:28,270 --> 00:33:29,390 Alessandro Oppo: democracy, 558 00:33:29,790 --> 00:33:31,150 Alessandro Oppo: state level institutions, 559 00:33:32,030 --> 00:33:33,630 Alessandro Oppo: and even economics 560 00:33:33,630 --> 00:33:37,230 Alessandro Oppo: in the long run to not be very shortsighted, 561 00:33:37,310 --> 00:33:39,310 Alessandro Oppo: to follow shortsighted incentives 562 00:33:39,390 --> 00:33:40,190 Alessandro Oppo: that we have, 563 00:33:40,865 --> 00:33:43,985 Alessandro Oppo: like the best quarter earnings 564 00:33:43,985 --> 00:33:44,865 Alessandro Oppo: to 565 00:33:44,865 --> 00:33:46,145 Alessandro Oppo: get the best dividends 566 00:33:46,225 --> 00:33:47,985 Alessandro Oppo: to people who hold your stock, 567 00:33:48,225 --> 00:33:50,145 Alessandro Oppo: but maybe to say, okay, we 568 00:33:50,545 --> 00:33:51,345 Alessandro Oppo: created, 569 00:33:51,825 --> 00:33:57,430 Alessandro Oppo: a way to incentivize people to look more in the long run, to not look into the next quarter, but maybe 570 00:33:57,590 --> 00:34:02,070 Alessandro Oppo: check the next four or five years, and we have kind of like a polar star where we're all going 571 00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:07,030 Alessandro Oppo: are are working towards. I think technology can help to bring people together because 572 00:34:07,325 --> 00:34:09,325 Alessandro Oppo: life today is so complex, 573 00:34:09,565 --> 00:34:11,165 Alessandro Oppo: and I think especially with 574 00:34:11,485 --> 00:34:12,925 Alessandro Oppo: artificial intelligence, 575 00:34:13,245 --> 00:34:15,325 Alessandro Oppo: there is a technology that can 576 00:34:16,445 --> 00:34:17,245 Alessandro Oppo: recognize 577 00:34:17,245 --> 00:34:21,725 Alessandro Oppo: pattern for us where we would take a lot of time to, you know, make it work. 578 00:34:23,770 --> 00:34:29,050 Alessandro Oppo: And I'm super curious who comes up with some nice idea that can 579 00:34:29,210 --> 00:34:32,890 Alessandro Oppo: strengthen this kind of politics and not abuse it for surveillance 580 00:34:33,210 --> 00:34:34,650 Alessandro Oppo: and power abuse 581 00:34:36,255 --> 00:34:40,415 Alessandro Oppo: but to use it to bring people together. But for me, I think that also 582 00:34:40,575 --> 00:34:41,695 Alessandro Oppo: always means 583 00:34:41,855 --> 00:34:43,375 Alessandro Oppo: to use technology, 584 00:34:43,615 --> 00:34:49,295 Alessandro Oppo: to bring people together, and then not use technology for a while or to not look at the screen, but actually 585 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:50,240 Alessandro Oppo: give, 586 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:56,400 Alessandro Oppo: you the most valuable resource that I have, which is my time and my attention. 587 00:34:56,720 --> 00:35:00,699 Alessandro Oppo: So I say I put my phone away or I put it in my pocket and not have it sit on the 588 00:35:00,699 --> 00:35:01,499 desk 589 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,920 Alessandro Oppo: or at the table. I give you my full 590 00:35:04,185 --> 00:35:04,985 Alessandro Oppo: attention, 591 00:35:05,065 --> 00:35:11,079 Alessandro Oppo: and I look for the the cues you have in your face. Are you doubting what I'm saying? Do you follow my 592 00:35:11,079 --> 00:35:11,879 my arguments? 593 00:35:12,265 --> 00:35:15,705 Alessandro Oppo: Do you have a better idea than me? And do you challenge my worldview, 594 00:35:16,105 --> 00:35:19,145 Alessandro Oppo: but not in a way that I have to defend myself, but 595 00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:21,510 Alessandro Oppo: I can say, yeah, I think I think you're 596 00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:22,950 Alessandro Oppo: you're onto something. 597 00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:25,030 Alessandro Oppo: And the second part, 598 00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:26,790 Alessandro Oppo: referring to your question, 599 00:35:27,270 --> 00:35:29,030 Alessandro Oppo: is a bit I think, 600 00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:31,910 Alessandro Oppo: I totally underestimated 601 00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:36,535 Alessandro Oppo: before I studied, especially before I went on Erasmus in in Italy and in Portugal, 602 00:35:37,095 --> 00:35:39,735 Alessandro Oppo: how the culture and the history 603 00:35:40,215 --> 00:35:44,135 Alessandro Oppo: of a territory or a nation or a country, however you want to call it, 604 00:35:44,935 --> 00:35:47,015 Alessandro Oppo: heavily influences how people engage 605 00:35:47,095 --> 00:35:48,135 Alessandro Oppo: with 606 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,400 Alessandro Oppo: with a society and their expectation. 607 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,000 Alessandro Oppo: Just recently, I listened to a podcast about Meloni 608 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,080 Alessandro Oppo: and how she struggles also with 609 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,520 Alessandro Oppo: with the big lawyers and the state institutions 610 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:00,480 Alessandro Oppo: in the country, 611 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,095 Alessandro Oppo: but even right wing people who support Meloni's 612 00:36:05,095 --> 00:36:09,415 Alessandro Oppo: view of the world or would want her to go even further, there's a very big 613 00:36:10,215 --> 00:36:14,135 Alessandro Oppo: patriotic view of protecting a very anti fascist 614 00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:21,340 Alessandro Oppo: constitution of Italy. So there's like, how do you say, a patriarchy 615 00:36:21,340 --> 00:36:22,860 Alessandro Oppo: towards the constitution, 616 00:36:23,180 --> 00:36:23,980 Alessandro Oppo: towards like, 617 00:36:24,460 --> 00:36:27,420 Alessandro Oppo: maybe Garibaldis Italy, let's say. And in Germany, 618 00:36:29,525 --> 00:36:36,213 Alessandro Oppo: it it is completely different. So how our checks and balances would have to work in terms of how we inherit it 619 00:36:36,213 --> 00:36:37,125 from our ancestors, 620 00:36:37,125 --> 00:36:38,085 Alessandro Oppo: parents, whatever, 621 00:36:38,485 --> 00:36:45,301 Alessandro Oppo: it I think it would lead to a different kind of outcome if you put it together. So I find it super 622 00:36:45,301 --> 00:36:46,540 interesting how we inside 623 00:36:46,780 --> 00:36:49,100 Alessandro Oppo: the European continent, the European Union, 624 00:36:50,780 --> 00:36:56,851 Alessandro Oppo: have different approaches of how we want it to work. You talked about Switzerland kind of in a way, you know, they 625 00:36:56,851 --> 00:36:57,955 have a more direct 626 00:36:57,955 --> 00:37:00,195 Alessandro Oppo: democracy, but they're also smaller country. 627 00:37:00,595 --> 00:37:05,395 Alessandro Oppo: Then you have some sort of like Norway who have like a king again, 628 00:37:07,075 --> 00:37:08,915 Alessandro Oppo: and it's kind of like a monarchy, 629 00:37:08,995 --> 00:37:10,195 Alessandro Oppo: representative 630 00:37:10,515 --> 00:37:14,160 Alessandro Oppo: monarchy, but with, well, mostly democratic terms. 631 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:16,480 Alessandro Oppo: So I 632 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,960 Alessandro Oppo: I'm really curious, and I'm very 633 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,600 Alessandro Oppo: optimistic that we will have to figure out 634 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,880 Alessandro Oppo: in the twenty first century to deal with 635 00:37:28,235 --> 00:37:30,795 Alessandro Oppo: AI and other digital technology 636 00:37:30,955 --> 00:37:31,995 Alessandro Oppo: to actually 637 00:37:32,715 --> 00:37:33,755 Alessandro Oppo: make it work, 638 00:37:34,075 --> 00:37:38,875 Alessandro Oppo: to be pragmatic about it and not be too proud of one's own opinion, 639 00:37:38,955 --> 00:37:40,555 Alessandro Oppo: but wanting to cooperate, 640 00:37:40,555 --> 00:37:41,515 Alessandro Oppo: build alliances 641 00:37:42,330 --> 00:37:44,090 Alessandro Oppo: and embrace the other, 642 00:37:45,290 --> 00:37:48,570 Alessandro Oppo: but always looking towards protecting democracy first, 643 00:37:49,370 --> 00:37:51,610 Alessandro Oppo: and not to just go towards, 644 00:37:53,050 --> 00:37:54,090 Alessandro Oppo: felt or perceived 645 00:37:54,785 --> 00:37:55,665 Alessandro Oppo: efficiency 646 00:37:55,665 --> 00:37:59,425 Alessandro Oppo: kind of like in China who feels to be so much faster in 647 00:37:59,745 --> 00:38:01,025 Alessandro Oppo: certain technologies 648 00:38:01,025 --> 00:38:07,105 Alessandro Oppo: or just fixing a road. Apparently, in China takes two days, and in Germany, it takes one and a half years. 649 00:38:08,220 --> 00:38:12,380 Alessandro Oppo: But I still don't want to live in China even though I find it super interesting, 650 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:14,780 Alessandro Oppo: but I feel a lot less 651 00:38:14,940 --> 00:38:15,820 Alessandro Oppo: supervised 652 00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:16,940 Alessandro Oppo: and, 653 00:38:18,540 --> 00:38:24,092 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, I I feel a lot more free when it comes to to living in Europe than to living, somewhere else in 654 00:38:24,092 --> 00:38:27,625 this world. And I feel also very fortunate and lucky to be born, here. 655 00:38:28,745 --> 00:38:34,105 Thomas Lorenz: You haven't said how much time we take in Italy to fix a street because we don't fix them. 656 00:38:37,350 --> 00:38:38,550 Thomas Lorenz: Nice. Because 657 00:38:39,270 --> 00:38:41,910 Thomas Lorenz: yeah. I I saw that different countries 658 00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:45,350 Thomas Lorenz: has different level of speed in 659 00:38:45,830 --> 00:38:47,830 Thomas Lorenz: relation to to everything. 660 00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:52,470 Thomas Lorenz: And so so, yeah, the culture is quite important also in relation to politics. 661 00:38:55,235 --> 00:38:58,035 Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. Especially like Italy and Germany, they are, 662 00:38:58,755 --> 00:38:59,795 Thomas Lorenz: quite different. 663 00:38:59,875 --> 00:39:02,435 Thomas Lorenz: I I never lived in Germany, maybe in the future. 664 00:39:04,770 --> 00:39:06,690 Thomas Lorenz: But, yeah, I see this difference. 665 00:39:07,650 --> 00:39:08,450 Thomas Lorenz: And, 666 00:39:09,810 --> 00:39:12,770 Thomas Lorenz: there was something I wanted to say that I just forgot. 667 00:39:13,490 --> 00:39:14,290 Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. 668 00:39:14,530 --> 00:39:17,250 Thomas Lorenz: If you want to say something because I forgot what I wanted to say. 669 00:39:20,355 --> 00:39:23,715 Alessandro Oppo: One one idea I also had in my mind is 670 00:39:24,035 --> 00:39:24,835 Alessandro Oppo: how much, 671 00:39:26,195 --> 00:39:28,435 Alessandro Oppo: like, I have a very strong opinion, 672 00:39:28,675 --> 00:39:34,670 Alessandro Oppo: for example, when it comes to fixing roads, be it Germany, Italy, or wherever, but have a very weak concept 673 00:39:34,990 --> 00:39:40,716 Alessandro Oppo: of what has to happen so a road is fixed. I don't know who actually has to do it to be involved. 674 00:39:40,716 --> 00:39:46,441 How do I call them? What is it in terms of, like, law? Like, who can I order to to get this 675 00:39:46,441 --> 00:39:50,605 road fixed? So I think we totally under complicate in our heads what has to happen, 676 00:39:51,005 --> 00:39:57,052 Alessandro Oppo: and I have a very strong opinion that it should happen the next day. You know? But maybe the the company is 677 00:39:57,052 --> 00:40:00,350 fixing roads outside of town right now, or it's, like, too expensive, 678 00:40:00,430 --> 00:40:04,430 Alessandro Oppo: and it has to be, like, a public announcement. Hey. Who wants to fix this road? 679 00:40:04,990 --> 00:40:07,950 Alessandro Oppo: And people compete against each other. So 680 00:40:08,510 --> 00:40:13,150 Alessandro Oppo: I think technology in the future can also bring this together, you know, like, more of, like, knowing 681 00:40:13,855 --> 00:40:14,655 Alessandro Oppo: and 682 00:40:15,055 --> 00:40:17,055 Alessandro Oppo: and being able to deal with it and being, 683 00:40:18,735 --> 00:40:21,055 Alessandro Oppo: efficient in terms of fixing, 684 00:40:21,295 --> 00:40:22,095 Alessandro Oppo: stuff, 685 00:40:22,735 --> 00:40:29,307 Alessandro Oppo: but also helping other people to say, hey. You can be very you can be very emotional about it, have a strong 686 00:40:29,307 --> 00:40:33,190 opinion, but it's also never, never as easy as you think it is. 687 00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:38,630 Alessandro Oppo: Sometimes it's over complicated. I think in Germany, we have so many rules 688 00:40:38,790 --> 00:40:41,430 Alessandro Oppo: that prohibits us from actually being pragmatic, 689 00:40:43,075 --> 00:40:47,715 Alessandro Oppo: But also sometimes I enjoy that I grew up with so many rules because 690 00:40:47,955 --> 00:40:48,915 Alessandro Oppo: in Germany, 691 00:40:49,075 --> 00:40:51,235 Alessandro Oppo: I can rely on public infrastructure, 692 00:40:51,315 --> 00:40:56,355 Alessandro Oppo: and I can actually sue people when something is not working. It takes a lot of time. Yes. 693 00:40:57,690 --> 00:40:58,490 Alessandro Oppo: But 694 00:40:59,210 --> 00:41:03,450 Alessandro Oppo: looking at at other states or other political systems, I feel 695 00:41:04,650 --> 00:41:05,850 Alessandro Oppo: I feel lucky, 696 00:41:06,170 --> 00:41:07,530 Alessandro Oppo: but I also feel, 697 00:41:07,850 --> 00:41:08,650 Alessandro Oppo: how do you say, 698 00:41:09,925 --> 00:41:15,519 Alessandro Oppo: I feel very annoyed sometimes. You know? And when I go to Italy, feel like, ah, people are on the streets more. 699 00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:17,045 The coffee is better. It's cheaper. 700 00:41:17,845 --> 00:41:18,645 Alessandro Oppo: And 701 00:41:18,885 --> 00:41:21,525 Alessandro Oppo: I I feel more, alive maybe sometimes 702 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,920 Alessandro Oppo: because I think Germany is such a weird fetish towards work and productivity. 703 00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:28,760 Alessandro Oppo: But I think it also 704 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:35,800 Alessandro Oppo: is my opinion because I grew up my normal state is Germany even though I've lived abroad in quite a few countries. 705 00:41:37,185 --> 00:41:42,145 Alessandro Oppo: But since I know so much of what is happening in Germany and I have a feeling of how it works together, 706 00:41:42,545 --> 00:41:43,345 Alessandro Oppo: I 707 00:41:43,985 --> 00:41:50,945 Alessandro Oppo: feel worse about Germany than I may feel about when I'm on vacation in Italy because 708 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:56,339 Alessandro Oppo: yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I know so much more of of Germany and how it works and should work 709 00:41:56,339 --> 00:42:00,720 because I know I don't know. We're so productive. I don't know what you want to say about us. But, 710 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,480 Alessandro Oppo: when I go to Italy, 711 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:09,108 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, I sometimes feel like we're also behind in a certain way. And I don't know if if if you come to 712 00:42:09,108 --> 00:42:14,625 Germany and you see, ah, shit. There's not so many coffee places around, but you enjoy a clean park or, 713 00:42:14,945 --> 00:42:17,905 Alessandro Oppo: which we don't quite have in Bologna. We had the little, 714 00:42:18,145 --> 00:42:20,785 Alessandro Oppo: Trichen to Scalini outside of, in the Southwest, 715 00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:27,440 Alessandro Oppo: which is beautiful, but I love the parks in Germany, like big parks. 716 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,840 Alessandro Oppo: They also didn't quite have that in Lisbon. There was a lot of little gardens which were beautiful, but a proper park. 717 00:42:34,725 --> 00:42:36,565 Alessandro Oppo: That's that's a very nice thing. 718 00:42:38,005 --> 00:42:45,285 Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also I was thinking about two things. One is that, about all the rules and laws 719 00:42:45,445 --> 00:42:46,245 Thomas Lorenz: that, 720 00:42:46,245 --> 00:42:49,800 Thomas Lorenz: many times they also contradict themselves. 721 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:56,280 Thomas Lorenz: And I mean, I also think that, rules and laws are very related to power relationship. 722 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:57,160 Thomas Lorenz: So 723 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:03,590 Thomas Lorenz: the fact that you can interpret the law is based on who is in power in that moment, who has the power 724 00:43:03,590 --> 00:43:04,445 at that moment. 725 00:43:04,845 --> 00:43:06,045 Thomas Lorenz: And so I 726 00:43:06,365 --> 00:43:10,445 Thomas Lorenz: was thinking about maybe how AI could help 727 00:43:10,765 --> 00:43:12,205 Thomas Lorenz: maybe simplify 728 00:43:12,205 --> 00:43:14,125 Thomas Lorenz: what is contradicting, 729 00:43:15,005 --> 00:43:16,445 Thomas Lorenz: the different contradictions. 730 00:43:16,900 --> 00:43:18,100 Thomas Lorenz: And then also, 731 00:43:18,820 --> 00:43:21,300 Thomas Lorenz: it came to my mind what I wanted to say before 732 00:43:21,540 --> 00:43:23,300 Thomas Lorenz: about the different countries 733 00:43:23,940 --> 00:43:25,540 Thomas Lorenz: and the different ways of, 734 00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:29,140 Thomas Lorenz: different political systems. 735 00:43:31,415 --> 00:43:34,615 Thomas Lorenz: Because I I feel like that if we use technology 736 00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:36,775 Thomas Lorenz: to simplify, 737 00:43:37,335 --> 00:43:39,015 Thomas Lorenz: let's say, the administration, 738 00:43:39,735 --> 00:43:40,935 Thomas Lorenz: then that is 739 00:43:41,255 --> 00:43:46,055 Thomas Lorenz: probably what it makes the what is the the big difference in term of time. 740 00:43:47,020 --> 00:43:49,900 Thomas Lorenz: Because then I I think that to 741 00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:51,260 Thomas Lorenz: build literally 742 00:43:51,260 --> 00:43:54,940 Thomas Lorenz: to to fix the street in China, in Germany, or in Italy, 743 00:43:55,420 --> 00:43:59,580 Thomas Lorenz: the people that fix the street take more or less the same amount of time, 744 00:44:00,305 --> 00:44:03,105 Thomas Lorenz: okay, based on the machines that they have and so on. 745 00:44:05,185 --> 00:44:08,865 Thomas Lorenz: But probably the main things is how to 746 00:44:10,065 --> 00:44:14,065 Thomas Lorenz: on on one side, the political things to say, okay, that street has to be fixed. 747 00:44:15,310 --> 00:44:16,750 Thomas Lorenz: Then with 748 00:44:16,990 --> 00:44:21,710 Thomas Lorenz: which kind of money? Where do we take the money? And then who is doing that thing? 749 00:44:23,950 --> 00:44:26,830 Thomas Lorenz: I mean, my cousin or, like, 750 00:44:27,230 --> 00:44:28,030 Thomas Lorenz: or, like, 751 00:44:31,045 --> 00:44:32,085 Thomas Lorenz: am I doing like, 752 00:44:33,125 --> 00:44:35,285 Thomas Lorenz: how do you say, like a ban like, 753 00:44:36,085 --> 00:44:38,005 Thomas Lorenz: that people have to do an application, 754 00:44:38,245 --> 00:44:39,525 Thomas Lorenz: and so they are selected, 755 00:44:39,685 --> 00:44:41,125 Thomas Lorenz: to fix the street. 756 00:44:41,365 --> 00:44:42,245 Alessandro Oppo: To apply? 757 00:44:42,405 --> 00:44:43,445 Thomas Lorenz: Just Yeah. To apply. 758 00:44:44,620 --> 00:44:45,740 Thomas Lorenz: Yeah. Okay. 759 00:44:45,980 --> 00:44:47,580 Thomas Lorenz: I will look later. 760 00:44:48,140 --> 00:44:48,940 Thomas Lorenz: And 761 00:44:50,460 --> 00:44:52,540 Thomas Lorenz: and, yeah, I was thinking that maybe 762 00:44:52,540 --> 00:44:55,660 Thomas Lorenz: this is going to happen that the 763 00:44:56,060 --> 00:44:58,060 Thomas Lorenz: let's say the state become faster 764 00:44:58,305 --> 00:44:59,265 Thomas Lorenz: and faster. 765 00:44:59,585 --> 00:45:01,745 Thomas Lorenz: And related to this, there is the 766 00:45:03,105 --> 00:45:04,945 Thomas Lorenz: agentic state concept 767 00:45:05,505 --> 00:45:08,225 Thomas Lorenz: vision paper. I don't know if you had the 768 00:45:08,465 --> 00:45:15,660 Thomas Lorenz: chance to see it. It's a quite interesting project because they basically say, like, citizens now are used to, 769 00:45:17,340 --> 00:45:22,540 Thomas Lorenz: to quick services. Like, I don't know, you order from Amazon. The next day you have something. 770 00:45:23,020 --> 00:45:24,380 Thomas Lorenz: Mhmm. You receive the package. 771 00:45:25,420 --> 00:45:27,980 Thomas Lorenz: And, and it is the same with everything 772 00:45:28,175 --> 00:45:31,215 Thomas Lorenz: while the state is still slow. 773 00:45:32,735 --> 00:45:38,175 Thomas Lorenz: Mhmm. And, so if the state doesn't become also responsive as, 774 00:45:38,415 --> 00:45:41,935 Thomas Lorenz: let's say, the private companies in the tech sector are, 775 00:45:42,620 --> 00:45:46,700 Thomas Lorenz: then the state will lose and basically will not exist anymore. 776 00:45:47,180 --> 00:45:47,980 Thomas Lorenz: Then, 777 00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:51,180 Thomas Lorenz: it is interesting to think about what is the state. 778 00:45:51,980 --> 00:45:56,300 Thomas Lorenz: So if it is the entity that has the monopoly of violence or more like the administrative 779 00:45:56,300 --> 00:45:57,100 Thomas Lorenz: things. 780 00:45:57,245 --> 00:45:58,045 Thomas Lorenz: But 781 00:45:59,085 --> 00:46:00,365 Thomas Lorenz: yeah, I feel like that 782 00:46:02,205 --> 00:46:04,125 Thomas Lorenz: a lot of things could be simplified, 783 00:46:04,365 --> 00:46:05,885 Thomas Lorenz: let's say by technology. 784 00:46:06,285 --> 00:46:09,165 Thomas Lorenz: And this doesn't mean that we will live in a better society, 785 00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:11,350 Thomas Lorenz: but at least 786 00:46:13,750 --> 00:46:16,870 Thomas Lorenz: maybe street will be fixed in a quicker way. 787 00:46:17,510 --> 00:46:18,310 Thomas Lorenz: So 788 00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:22,070 Alessandro Oppo: this Yeah. I look forward to 789 00:46:23,335 --> 00:46:28,375 Alessandro Oppo: specifically for the, bureaucratic processes to be more streamlined, more comprehensible, 790 00:46:28,615 --> 00:46:33,557 Alessandro Oppo: and also to be used on my phone. You know, when I'm sitting in the tram and I have to go to 791 00:46:33,557 --> 00:46:34,455 work in my commute, 792 00:46:35,095 --> 00:46:37,015 Alessandro Oppo: I can, you know, say, 793 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:43,119 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, my my child needs a new ID, and I can click on it on a phone and it's super 794 00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:44,200 fast. That would be amazing. 795 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:48,760 Alessandro Oppo: I know in in Estonia and some Nordic countries, they are also very, very far. 796 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:49,880 Alessandro Oppo: And I think 797 00:46:50,775 --> 00:46:52,535 Alessandro Oppo: or I am sometimes surprised 798 00:46:52,775 --> 00:46:54,855 Alessandro Oppo: that I don't notice 799 00:46:54,935 --> 00:46:56,775 Alessandro Oppo: German politicians 800 00:46:56,775 --> 00:47:03,772 Alessandro Oppo: going there and saying, how did you do it? Tell us, and we incorporate it into German and put some label of 801 00:47:03,772 --> 00:47:04,572 on 802 00:47:04,170 --> 00:47:08,970 Alessandro Oppo: top of it, like data privacy, which is super important. It's like a religious concept here in Germany. 803 00:47:09,450 --> 00:47:10,330 Alessandro Oppo: I 804 00:47:12,170 --> 00:47:13,610 Alessandro Oppo: I really hope, this 805 00:47:14,445 --> 00:47:16,125 Alessandro Oppo: this will actually 806 00:47:16,365 --> 00:47:17,165 Alessandro Oppo: boost 807 00:47:17,245 --> 00:47:18,525 Alessandro Oppo: the processes, 808 00:47:18,925 --> 00:47:22,925 Alessandro Oppo: of normal citizens having to deal with the state. Because right now, for a lot of people, 809 00:47:23,645 --> 00:47:25,965 Alessandro Oppo: dealing with the state means, yes, maybe voting, 810 00:47:26,125 --> 00:47:28,685 Alessandro Oppo: in terms of democracy, but dealing with the state means 811 00:47:29,170 --> 00:47:35,165 Alessandro Oppo: to check that everything is correct, you know, that that I live in a certain way, that when I want to build 812 00:47:35,165 --> 00:47:37,890 a house, every paper signed and filled is sent out. 813 00:47:39,090 --> 00:47:45,315 Alessandro Oppo: And if that process of dealing with the state of my state, I am part of the state, right, is painful. 814 00:47:45,555 --> 00:47:47,635 Alessandro Oppo: I am not a big fan necessarily. 815 00:47:47,635 --> 00:47:53,371 Alessandro Oppo: I don't feel like I want to defend filling out so many papers that I have on my desk and all the 816 00:47:53,371 --> 00:47:54,675 information I get on actual 817 00:47:55,075 --> 00:47:55,875 Alessandro Oppo: paper. 818 00:47:57,470 --> 00:47:58,750 Alessandro Oppo: In the contrary, 819 00:47:58,750 --> 00:47:59,550 Alessandro Oppo: looking at 820 00:47:59,950 --> 00:48:05,947 Alessandro Oppo: a brief Nach Berlin, for example, the little project that I have, it can be funny that in the future, things are 821 00:48:05,947 --> 00:48:07,310 more going to be digital. 822 00:48:07,630 --> 00:48:12,350 Alessandro Oppo: But I think the more this is going to happen, the more important and more effective 823 00:48:12,350 --> 00:48:19,173 Alessandro Oppo: it will be to actually write a handwritten letter when you want to complain about something or actually say, why are we 824 00:48:19,173 --> 00:48:25,685 still so analog? And you send an analog handwritten letter because it is always the exception. It will always stick out. 825 00:48:26,005 --> 00:48:26,805 Alessandro Oppo: You know? 826 00:48:27,670 --> 00:48:29,510 Alessandro Oppo: Let's say, you 827 00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:37,757 Alessandro Oppo: receive so many messages or emails, but the actual letter sits on your desk. You cannot swipe it away or neglect it 828 00:48:37,757 --> 00:48:38,557 or artificially 829 00:48:38,550 --> 00:48:39,510 Alessandro Oppo: intelligence, 830 00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:42,390 Alessandro Oppo: have it be summed up and summarized and sent away. 831 00:48:43,075 --> 00:48:48,595 Alessandro Oppo: It takes more time to actually look at this piece of paper, and this piece of paper, handwritten 832 00:48:48,595 --> 00:48:49,475 Alessandro Oppo: specific, 833 00:48:50,355 --> 00:48:53,635 Alessandro Oppo: feeling in your hand. Right? So you it's not quite legible. 834 00:48:53,795 --> 00:48:57,420 Alessandro Oppo: It has a very personal touch to it. It's a very costly 835 00:48:57,660 --> 00:49:03,820 Alessandro Oppo: signal of someone to spend time and go the more complicated, the longer and more costly way, 836 00:49:04,060 --> 00:49:06,380 Alessandro Oppo: than to just send something AI written 837 00:49:07,340 --> 00:49:11,100 Alessandro Oppo: that I haven't even read to 838 00:49:09,555 --> 00:49:11,235 Alessandro Oppo: to my member of parliament. 839 00:49:11,315 --> 00:49:17,891 Alessandro Oppo: So I look forward to having both things. So if you actually mean to complain or even want to say thank you 840 00:49:17,891 --> 00:49:23,870 to your member of parliament, they work long hours, don't see their family as much, It's a very tough job. 841 00:49:25,070 --> 00:49:27,070 Alessandro Oppo: This kind of personal note 842 00:49:27,550 --> 00:49:31,630 Alessandro Oppo: is a very, very effective pattern break for the receiver 843 00:49:31,790 --> 00:49:38,014 Alessandro Oppo: to see, okay. Somebody actually means it, takes time, and sends me a personal thing, but also for us ourselves because since 844 00:49:38,014 --> 00:49:39,995 we're more and more looking at technology 845 00:49:40,075 --> 00:49:47,064 Alessandro Oppo: and in the future, hopefully also dealing with state matters, bureaucratic matters on our phone, on our laptops, iPads, or whatever 846 00:49:47,064 --> 00:49:48,395 future technology we use. 847 00:49:50,010 --> 00:49:56,770 Alessandro Oppo: It also is something for me to actually sit down, be very conscious about taking the pen, taking the paper, writing down 848 00:49:56,770 --> 00:50:03,530 what I actually want fixed and knowing I am responsible for sending this piece of paper to Rome, to Lisbon, to Berlin, 849 00:50:05,335 --> 00:50:06,855 Alessandro Oppo: or Washington DC. 850 00:50:07,175 --> 00:50:08,855 Alessandro Oppo: And I think these 851 00:50:08,855 --> 00:50:10,775 Alessandro Oppo: two different technologies, 852 00:50:10,855 --> 00:50:12,695 Alessandro Oppo: two different approaches towards 853 00:50:12,775 --> 00:50:15,335 Alessandro Oppo: sending a message, sending information somewhere, 854 00:50:16,295 --> 00:50:19,175 Alessandro Oppo: I think they can go hand in hand even though they're totally contradictory. 855 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:25,583 Alessandro Oppo: And I think that that to me is fascinating. I hope we write even less letters and fill out papers in the 856 00:50:25,583 --> 00:50:26,383 future, 857 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:32,050 Alessandro Oppo: but if we do, we really mean it. And that will be true for both the person who writes it and the 858 00:50:32,050 --> 00:50:34,800 person who receives it. It can also be a postcard. 859 00:50:35,565 --> 00:50:41,405 Alessandro Oppo: Right? Back in the day, I saw so many postcards everywhere when I traveled with Interrey on my first time in Italy, 860 00:50:41,565 --> 00:50:43,405 Alessandro Oppo: and now they're very rare. 861 00:50:43,645 --> 00:50:47,645 Alessandro Oppo: You can still buy them. They've become ridiculously expensive, I think, for 862 00:50:48,525 --> 00:50:50,045 Alessandro Oppo: a printed piece of cardboard. 863 00:50:51,380 --> 00:50:56,725 Alessandro Oppo: But back in the day, there were so many postcards to choose from, and today there is very little, and most of 864 00:50:56,725 --> 00:50:57,940 them have become very ugly, 865 00:50:58,420 --> 00:50:59,220 Alessandro Oppo: I think. 866 00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:01,700 Alessandro Oppo: But when I receive a postcard, 867 00:51:02,020 --> 00:51:06,315 Alessandro Oppo: I always feel like, oh, wow, this person I wasn't expecting this. This person 868 00:51:06,555 --> 00:51:09,995 Alessandro Oppo: took his time, put on a stamp, went to the postal code, 869 00:51:10,315 --> 00:51:11,915 Alessandro Oppo: and, miraculously, 870 00:51:11,915 --> 00:51:16,475 Alessandro Oppo: the Portuguese postal office, Zete Te, made it happen that this thing did not, 871 00:51:17,035 --> 00:51:18,395 Alessandro Oppo: go to waste, disappeared, 872 00:51:18,395 --> 00:51:19,355 Alessandro Oppo: but it actually reached 873 00:51:19,780 --> 00:51:23,380 Alessandro Oppo: all the way from across the world. I think that's that's super neat. It's something 874 00:51:23,860 --> 00:51:28,260 Alessandro Oppo: uniquely human that I feel like something that you have crafted yourself, 875 00:51:28,980 --> 00:51:35,173 Alessandro Oppo: is in my hand, and it took you some time to actually do it. So yeah. Yeah. I see these these two 876 00:51:35,173 --> 00:51:35,973 aspects. 877 00:51:37,535 --> 00:51:40,095 Thomas Lorenz: When I was a kid, I was collecting stamps 878 00:51:40,175 --> 00:51:44,495 Thomas Lorenz: because they were traveling all around the world. Mhmm. So I really, 879 00:51:44,655 --> 00:51:45,695 Thomas Lorenz: really like 880 00:51:46,140 --> 00:51:47,260 Thomas Lorenz: real letters 881 00:51:47,500 --> 00:51:48,620 Alessandro Oppo: and stamps. 882 00:51:49,180 --> 00:51:49,980 Thomas Lorenz: And 883 00:51:51,020 --> 00:51:52,780 Thomas Lorenz: and, yeah, if you have a, 884 00:51:52,940 --> 00:51:57,100 Thomas Lorenz: let's say, a final message for all the people who are working, 885 00:51:57,340 --> 00:51:59,340 Thomas Lorenz: on things related to democracy, 886 00:51:59,340 --> 00:52:01,895 Thomas Lorenz: maybe with technology, maybe without technology, 887 00:52:02,295 --> 00:52:03,895 Thomas Lorenz: like a message to them? 888 00:52:04,775 --> 00:52:09,175 Alessandro Oppo: I would say work open source, do a little bit of advertisement 889 00:52:09,655 --> 00:52:13,175 Alessandro Oppo: for your matter online, so people can find you on LinkedIn, Instagram, 890 00:52:13,730 --> 00:52:15,330 Alessandro Oppo: and the other weird platforms 891 00:52:15,330 --> 00:52:17,170 Alessandro Oppo: we are dependent on from, 892 00:52:17,330 --> 00:52:18,610 Alessandro Oppo: from The US, 893 00:52:18,850 --> 00:52:23,810 Alessandro Oppo: in order to reach a lot of people like I'm trying to hear in this podcast. Talk to Alessandro, 894 00:52:24,210 --> 00:52:25,010 Alessandro Oppo: maybe 895 00:52:25,490 --> 00:52:32,403 Alessandro Oppo: have some idea made together, and let's, let's connect. If you want to copy Brief Nach Berlin, Letter to Parliament to your 896 00:52:32,403 --> 00:52:35,545 country, you have an idea or you know your cousin 897 00:52:35,625 --> 00:52:41,225 Alessandro Oppo: is experimenting with AI, let's get in touch with me. If you have an idea that could work in Germany, 898 00:52:41,385 --> 00:52:43,305 Alessandro Oppo: feel free to contact me. You can go on, 899 00:52:45,130 --> 00:52:47,930 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know what it's called, topyahoo topyahoo.yahoo, 900 00:52:47,930 --> 00:52:51,210 Alessandro Oppo: puntobriefnafpelin.de, 901 00:52:51,850 --> 00:52:54,010 Alessandro Oppo: and you can find my email address. 902 00:52:54,730 --> 00:53:00,575 Alessandro Oppo: Let's get in touch. We have to all work together in a very pragmatic way to reach a lot of people and, 903 00:53:01,215 --> 00:53:07,615 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, safe safe democracy, improve it so it withstands the challenges of time. Thank you, Thomas. 904 00:53:12,140 --> 00:53:15,340 Thomas Lorenz: You're welcome. And if if you want to add anything else, otherwise, 905 00:53:16,060 --> 00:53:17,900 Alessandro Oppo: thanks for your time. Thank you.