Josef Lentsch about the Political Tech Summit and huge potential in digitally assisted democracy
Ep. 06

Josef Lentsch about the Political Tech Summit and huge potential in digitally assisted democracy

Episode description

In this episode of Democracy Innovator, Alessandro Oppo interviews Josef Lentsch, founder and CEO of the Political Tech Summit. Josef shares insights on political technology, the distinction between civic tech and govtech, and how technology can strengthen democratic processes. Drawing from his background in psychology and public administration, Josef offers a unique perspective on the challenges and opportunities in digital politics.

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the so welcome on another episode of

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democracy innovator innovator spot gusta and our

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guest of today is a joseph lynch

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sorry

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and i mean europe political entrepreneur book

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but you have written books and your

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thunder and ceo of their political tech

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summit

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and so as the first thing thank

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you for your time excited me

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and them

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and would like to tell us something

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about their political tech summit i mean

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because it was the it was last

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month yeah so

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negative thanks to much so he had

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the political take some it was

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and a premier it was europe's first

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event in that of that kind and

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we can protect pepper carrying it for

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about a year now

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the idea was to to close a

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gap and in the in the landscape

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in the political landscape us in the

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market and a kept of because their

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politics is a very fragmented and landscape

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still in in europe and politics is

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very much sir national

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the based and of course it's organized

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alongside politik families so there is not

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enough learning and particularly within the agreed

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that the democratic center from center left

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us and the right and so we

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thought it will degrade to create the

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space where peers can learn from

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each other very practically with a future

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technology but also where and vendors and

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provide us could meet with potential clients

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are where people could meet new partners

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and i'm very happy to say that

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it has been very successful was more

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than six hundred people's from more than

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forty nations

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it's and we have had great feedback

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was lots of thirteen and interviewing and

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people are really positive about it though

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we already announced that there will be

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a second edition and in january twenty

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six in berlin once again but for

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now a think care we we are

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i have their very had been delighted

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well this has actually worked and and

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actually the impact it already has had

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with fred from from people that they

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already took stuff and and applied it

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within their organizations within their political parties

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unions associations and and and and that's

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great that's that's exactly what what they

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want to happen

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and m i was thinking about them

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i mean the summit is about political

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attack and the there is the distinction

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between civic decker and gothic if you

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call the tellers the something more about

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her happy have this tempted to so

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and civic tech is about empowering citizens

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digitally so for example with transparency apps

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about you know parliaments and and and

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mended or nurse or stuff like fix

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my street to for people

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can can ah putting complaints or can

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suggest ideas for improving city life also

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this would be all and the civic

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tech am also saved civic participation so

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when it comes to do you know

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deliberative formats are or can't i'm consulting

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our citizens and they're are also quite

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a lot of platforms for that and

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it's quite an established field on the

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other hand gaffe tech is about digitizing

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the public sector so it looks at

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the administration's and and and how we

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can improve how we can make administration

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the government more

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efficient with digital means and and in

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between between gas to consider take there's

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a space where our organizations lag political

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parties leaf but also you know unions

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associations are some the prophets the businesses

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anyone who's involved the political arena who's

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doing politics

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communication containing electioneering of those organizations of

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quiet and distinct and special needs are

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there are of course touch points at

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intersections with gas take as well as

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civic tech absolutely and some organizations could

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be a think are called for example

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gastric as well as politico

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tech and so on but but we

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really saw us at the summit that

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it's quite a special community that has

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not had the chance to get together

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so far and the political tech summit

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brought this political tech community together for

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the first time

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yeah i i see the bill from

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a civic decker and the gothic or

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i mean that sometimes they overlap each

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other also because it's a very new

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field and the before going back and

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talking about political thinker and were

5:22

wanted to ask you if you like

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to share something about your background personal

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background also eventually starting from when you

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were a child or

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i'm an austrian by birth and lives

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in berlin was my family but i

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grew up a close to vienna close

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the to the hungarian border so to

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me and i i remember to very

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important moments in my life politically speaking

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and one of course was

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the the the fall of the berlin

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wall and the other one of them

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was when the the iron curtain of

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came down a close to our home

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so we always had to go to

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hungary to visit friends and wait for

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two three hours at the border and

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suddenly the border was gone and and

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both of these

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things of course happened he close proximity

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and around the time where i was

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thirteen or so saw in my youth

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really and and so they were quiet

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of course left a big impression on

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me and this is why i think

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me and also you know many of

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my generation are really quite optimistic about

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progress

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as and about the future and which

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is of course very much challenge shred

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now but but not too long later

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of course also in a facebook emerged

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and back in the day twitter and

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and there was the arab spring so

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the all this optimism then was projected

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onto the technology and

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so you know i i was of

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among the first to to to use

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those things and really loved them because

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it helped me stay in touch with

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friends and and learn about new things

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and of course you know facebook twitter

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many other platforms are very much of

7:09

the critiqued a retina for for many

7:11

things and a

7:13

a i still think they they they

7:15

have the have value to certain degree

7:18

but in any way i think back

7:20

back in the day the of the

7:22

this techno almost utopianism when i grew

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up off you know take outing to

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improve the god democracy and and and

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helping to fix some problems within the

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political

7:34

system has now almost turned into the

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opposite where people now almost have a

7:39

can of dystopian few of technology that

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it destroys and undermines democracy i i

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of course i'm not a believer in

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extremes i think while they are you

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know we can make fair arguments for

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both of those things

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and i think what's interesting to me

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is how can we use technology and

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what's out there are to improve political

8:05

communication management campaigning and because we know

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that democracy is under attack also partially

8:12

by and through technology

8:14

and we know that that politics needs

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to change we know why we know

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or even what needs to change a

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think the hardest be at his house

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of what i've always been interested in

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and taken the day in two thousand

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and twelve i was involved in in

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finding a new political party in austria

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which now entering government it's called nails

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us so my interest was always in

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or i saw we ought we have

8:38

all those ideas and ideas of course

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are cheap and anyone can have ideas

8:44

but not everyone can or as is

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is willing to to put in the

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hours to actually make stuff happen so

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i've always tried to help make stuff

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happen not always successfully

8:54

the but what always what gets me

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excited this doing staff creating stuff co-creating

8:59

stuff getting others to use the stuff

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and then like with political tech summit

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finding from their feet thick and their

9:05

responses and direction instead is actually useful

9:09

in a very practical sense i think

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this is what we need much much

9:12

more of them i'm glad to say

9:15

that there are more and more what

9:16

i will call political entrepreneurs around are

9:19

doing at establishing new initiatives and they're

9:23

still not enough funding but that is

9:25

as i also changing there's more interest

9:27

from investors ah also philanthropists in helping

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to do those kinds of things so

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i think we

9:35

we see a positive development the only

9:38

question release 'em are we fast enough

9:42

and and i don't think subsequently to

9:44

become faster and bolder and more courageous

9:48

because as i sat in the beginning

9:50

and democracy is under threat and and

9:53

it's the it's a in aware in

9:54

the battle against

9:55

time i'm afraid

9:58

very interesting thoughts about the one about

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them

10:03

the speed the about the

10:06

them and the yeah i have another

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question more a related about the europe

10:14

professional background or academic background you partially

10:18

also talked about it i mean about

10:21

your professional background but that if issue

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like to say something

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so i'm i'm a psychologist by training

10:29

and i i did my first masters

10:32

at the university of vienna and in

10:35

psychology at an and though i'm i'm

10:39

very interested in indian individual perspective psychologies

10:42

about individual behavior behavior and

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of and and in impressions and decisions

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and and of course of the last

10:55

year's lot of stuff has happened in

10:57

combination with neuropsychology really understanding how the

11:02

brain works and how people make the

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decisions had also

11:06

oh how are you know in intellectual

11:09

thoughts how ratio and relates to the

11:12

emotion and and and that actually emotion

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is very much what drives us as

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as human beings even though we like

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to believe otherwise so so that's a

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to this day i'm still taking often

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a very

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individualistic perspective also of politics read understanding

11:30

why individual actors and act as they

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do why that takes her decisions are

11:36

sometimes of course disastrous decisions and sometimes

11:40

for the better whether the motives for

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drives them and whether they're looking for

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and what role as emotion play so

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that that that's one part of of

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my scientific and academic and perspective the

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other parties that my second masters and

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has been in public administration

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though i if you will have a

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more abstract more systemic a perspective off

12:09

and politics of government of of the

12:13

state so really swimming out and trying

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to understand of those structures and processes

12:19

of politics then for

12:22

deuce a certain policy and i think

12:26

as we have seen over the last

12:28

year's really is that the policies often

12:32

are not so much to problem as

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the politics because the politics is in

12:38

many cases of these days the bottleneck

12:40

you cannot get stuff

12:42

then you cannot get staff decided upon

12:46

their lot lot of blockages and then

12:50

of course you know it's very hard

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even if you can get something done

12:53

to communicated which is still of course

12:55

part of the politics and the implementation

12:58

so this is what i've always been

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interested in have been more of politics

13:02

nerd if you will

13:03

then perhaps a policy nerd am still

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interested their much a policy of course

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in it's it's essential to politics but

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but this is or always the part

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and how the people extended which is

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again more the second psychological question and

13:18

and so i've written a book which

13:20

is called political entrepreneurship way

13:22

where i looked at at nails the

13:25

party i helped coffin and austria but

13:28

back then in a two thousand and

13:29

nineteen also other new political parties in

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slovakia in in in spain and france

13:35

and asked you know how have they

13:38

managed to be successful i have to

13:41

manage to enter parliament what have

13:43

they done and who are those people

13:45

behind them what has driven them how

13:47

have they extend what mr methods has

13:49

to use to again very much practical

13:52

and pragmatic book on on how you

13:55

can actually do something that complex as

13:59

founding a new political party and then

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get it to aunt

14:03

parliament and even perhaps governments and that

14:06

that is the combination of many many

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things that i am interested in public

14:12

administration psychology politics as a whole and

14:17

that that's that's what get me what

14:19

gets me excited

14:23

the the question about why some people

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participate in public life and some not

14:27

the is something that i asked to

14:29

to myself many times and in our

14:32

way weights also i am interested the

14:34

by ye

14:35

do that

14:37

this word that is the

14:40

the week deck of but also a

14:42

gothic and everything related

14:46

and the think about what you were

14:48

saying

14:51

so i think the reason like are

14:53

sort of cultural problem because er visits

14:57

those were something i want to you

14:59

about the

15:01

if will stevens and playmakers if they

15:05

have enough knowledge about the these political

15:09

tech platform movements because that i mean

15:13

there are

15:14

policymakers then there are citizens and it

15:17

seems simple i mean technology of old

15:20

very fast and it seems that we

15:23

i mean must of the people are

15:26

not aware of the potential use of

15:30

technology

15:31

absolutely i think you're you're spot on

15:34

that there is of course and and

15:36

awareness read of of technology and and

15:39

and in an increasing awareness of that

15:43

technology is political and and that it

15:45

can at again right now you know

15:48

how it can harm the body politics

15:51

and and democracy a think in general

15:54

people are aware of that read what

15:58

they are not aware of are so

16:01

what tools to a have available what

16:04

what tech stack can i build to

16:08

do my chalk which he is you

16:10

know campaigning communicating winning elaine

16:12

actions and better read that there and

16:17

there's a gap and and i just

16:19

talked to somebody and from a political

16:24

organization yesterday and and the told me

16:29

well you know political parties a but

16:31

also

16:32

i think that that applies as much

16:33

to you know to unions associations and

16:36

other political organizations they burn an awful

16:39

lot of money on useless take read

16:42

and and and and that means it

16:44

might not be a better tool but

16:47

it might not be the right tools

16:48

sometimes it may also be that tools

16:50

random you know

16:52

in political tech there are many many

16:55

custom developments because every organization thinks their

16:59

unique and they have unique needs and

17:02

of course there are big dick platforms

17:04

that you can buy off the sheltered

17:05

a very expensive and awesome too big

17:07

and to to powerful so that's also

17:09

a problem but then the conclude

17:12

asian that you have to be and

17:14

stuff or by yourself because you know

17:16

best what you need is not necessarily

17:19

have the right one because often those

17:22

platforms and tools to get developed for

17:24

specific organization get developed once are not

17:28

necessarily program to are very well and

17:31

then and then the don't get developed

17:32

the

17:32

cost is costs money

17:34

and effort and people don't use it

17:36

and then you'll have of these this

17:38

leg at the legacy tech landscapes of

17:41

of text stakes that are you know

17:44

years old out of state and are

17:47

not the used because they're clunky saw

17:49

saw yes there is a big and

17:54

innovation gap in politics of what we

17:58

sought the political texts ahmed is that

18:01

people once they see what they can

18:03

actually what they could have what the

18:05

could use and and and how they

18:08

could you know potentially stick tools together

18:11

and there's a c r m there's

18:13

a social media management tool

18:14

there's the data analysis tools as mobilization

18:17

platform and you can put those together

18:20

then you suddenly realize what potential is

18:23

is in their right of course it's

18:26

not done by just buying it or

18:29

subscribing to something and paying for it

18:31

of course it needs to be implemented

18:32

this next problem right because then

18:34

and you talked about culture you need

18:37

a certain organizational culture your needs a

18:40

structures he needs responsibilities a accountability to

18:43

actually then make the organization use that

18:46

tool and learn that tool and and

18:48

the know it into the that the

18:49

muscle so to say and of of

18:53

of the organization so that

18:54

that's all quite complex it's it's it's

18:57

it's it's doable rights it has been

19:00

done before and of course as always

19:02

some organizations to better than others what

19:04

we also trying to do with we're

19:06

trying to make case that is available

19:08

and speakers available who have achieve something

19:11

was done something in the field of

19:13

political tech and really

19:15

the get people to learn and how

19:18

they can actually do something like that

19:20

you never can copy paste you know

19:22

from one organization to the other but

19:24

of course you can learn about success

19:27

factors about you know what we're about

19:29

fails which is also important so i

19:32

think there's an increasing awareness at a

19:35

people look for solutions and for tools

19:37

and this is what we want to

19:38

provide

19:42

the i i saw these are fragmentation

19:45

in political a thick like where every

19:48

organization build their own custom platform or

19:52

may be they do

19:55

the by the platform from from someone

19:57

else and several times they thought that

20:00

the may be

20:03

do people that are working civic tech

20:06

or gothic the can also collaborate on

20:10

building a platform that can be like

20:12

modular and thought that the

20:17

like it can be customized i'm thinking

20:20

about deseed him but the test was

20:23

saw about other kind of platform so

20:25

you don't have to build a platform

20:27

from zero every time but you're just

20:29

modify something

20:32

and i'm curious about the like for

20:35

a political party that the wants to

20:39

use of some news new technologies

20:42

do

20:44

what has like how to be successful

20:48

for a political party

20:51

as identity question of course out to

20:53

be successful well i think it's a

20:56

it's a it's of course it's it's

20:58

it's not just one factor right it's

21:00

about

21:02

realizing first of all what is out

21:05

there right we we have two hundred

21:09

fifty or more organizations already on our

21:11

radar in europe and beyond who provides

21:15

different tools and platforms and apps for

21:19

for political organizations right and i would

21:22

patch that most political parties and other

21:25

organizations can probably name two or three

21:28

you know i sought so there is

21:31

this big untapped potential of tools and

21:35

i saying and all that that you

21:36

don't have perhaps you have the best

21:37

tools and then the congratulations a chances

21:40

are you don't and then

21:42

you know what are the alternatives but

21:44

starts with realizing of course one's needs

21:48

and and conversations with potential partners can

21:52

help because people often don't realize what

21:54

the coderre for until the see what

21:56

they can if so to this is

21:59

where it all starts and then as

22:01

i said it's

22:02

really about the the the implementation it's

22:04

about and not just buying the tool

22:07

but but but getting the organization to

22:09

use the tool to to and ever

22:10

been to understand why does make sense

22:13

and to show them how this helps

22:15

drive a continuous improvement across the organization

22:20

says really a i a

22:22

and in complex and challenging process but

22:25

once you get up get you know

22:26

a lot of people adept sorry adopt

22:30

particular tool in your organization than the

22:33

magic happens because suddenly you get data

22:35

read suddenly get data that he can

22:37

learn from from from conversations with citizens

22:40

raw mobilizing of volunteers

22:42

from social media and then you can

22:45

make better data-driven decisions and and and

22:50

of course then this becomes ideally a

22:54

virtuous circle where you can show and

22:58

demonstrate to people that their work has

23:01

helped you to

23:03

make better decisions which has helped them

23:05

to be more efficient and about their

23:08

chalk and more effective which helps everyone

23:12

to be better winning elections communicating and

23:15

campaigning i think that's that's where the

23:17

magic liars of course this doesn't happen

23:21

overnight right this is hard work

23:23

work this also needs people to own

23:27

this and drive this we know from

23:30

talking to so many political organizations and

23:34

parties unions associations that most of them

23:38

don't have

23:41

as head of take for example redd

23:43

somebody who owns the technology within the

23:47

organization and if the have someone it's

23:50

often a person that is not necessarily

23:53

on the on the executive level but

23:55

often more an operative person right well

23:58

this is not ideal

24:00

you'll need someone to to really one

24:03

the portfolio what we see many organizations

24:07

instead and

24:08

there's a fragmentation was in the organization

24:10

of tools so this you know department

24:13

uses this tool the other the uses

24:15

not at all those don't talk to

24:17

each other so you create different data

24:19

pools and then of course you loose

24:22

and the the big picture you lose

24:24

to three hundred sixty a few of

24:26

you know your your your voltage

24:28

years your activists wherever it might be

24:31

that you're looking at and that's a

24:33

big big problem because then you can

24:36

learn what you could learn from from

24:38

from those from the information that you

24:40

can create so those are some factors

24:44

and leads you know it or not

24:46

necessarily rocket science or

24:48

our new buds it still is hard

24:51

to get them get them right and

24:53

if you get them right a think

24:55

political take can really make a difference

25:00

and them

25:02

i'm thinking that the right now there

25:06

is a sort of transition like from

25:09

them physical word to the digital one

25:12

was related to governance and participation and

25:17

them

25:19

i know that is not possible to

25:23

i to know when and if or

25:27

and a complete the transition will happen

25:33

a laker

25:35

yeah everything is changing so fast the

25:37

two years ago we didn't have voted

25:39

to pity and the or other kind

25:42

of from llm

25:46

and the though i'm wondering if you

25:49

i mean i know it's impossible to

25:51

say when and the for this will

25:53

happen but if you think a few

25:56

think that i dunno in ten years

25:58

sir or twenty years the like a

26:02

there will be

26:04

a transition toward technology because i mean

26:06

nowadays and i mean politicians policymaker they

26:10

have their

26:12

publica such an account i mean where

26:15

the right thing sir citizens can reply

26:17

or may i'm thinking that the some

26:21

a political party can ever private whatsapp

26:23

group or something else

26:26

but this is quite the informal in

26:28

a way

26:30

and am thinking

26:33

ifa we can estimate the when night

26:37

we left and

26:40

the yeah and as i think there's

26:42

of course huge potential in in technology

26:45

in making it you schools for democracy

26:49

for for pro democratic politics there's no

26:51

question about the drive then again at

26:53

the moment we see i am afraid

26:56

more that deleterious effects but that doesn't

26:59

mean

26:59

make it a a you know less

27:02

so that that there's a lot of

27:04

positive potential and really i really believe

27:07

in that so when when will we

27:10

get there well i mean we we

27:11

are a think

27:15

in we're making progress in the sense

27:18

of that you know they're there for

27:20

example technologies that that help assist and

27:24

facilitate the liberty processes and and and

27:30

and then there's also of course now

27:31

if you think about be key and

27:33

others are the

27:34

tools and discuss listening and summarizing of

27:40

conversations and and i think there's so

27:45

much in this but but you know

27:47

to your question i am not sure

27:50

that we will you know leave and

27:53

and that we should leave the fish

27:54

ethical space because i think politics will

27:59

and should always be to certain degree

28:00

physical so what i believe in is

28:02

rather let's say digitally assisted democracy read

28:06

and of course we can also talk

28:07

about stuff like and e-voting right and

28:11

and and other things that that that

28:13

mouse lower the

28:15

the hurdle for participation that allow for

28:19

in participation in the political process independent

28:22

off location of time i think those

28:25

are great things but i think they're

28:27

still and necessity in politics for people

28:31

to get together in-person sit down and

28:34

and talk i would i would even

28:36

argue that that this hasn't happened

28:39

as much perhaps as it as it

28:41

could and should have that people are

28:43

more and you're not engaging in the

28:46

digital the sphere that this has helped

28:50

or has accelerated a sudden estrangement from

28:54

the of you know from for citizen

28:56

from each other but also from from

28:59

the play

28:59

critical a classes so there there is

29:01

this kind of undermining of of of

29:04

cohesion politically speaking that i'm worried about

29:08

so i absolutely believe that their digital

29:12

tools that political tech and can help

29:16

us a compliment that and and and

29:18

and and imp

29:19

proof that experience and you know why

29:23

why should a human take notes if

29:25

if if if a if a talk

29:27

can do it and if they can

29:29

help us facilitate and organise a add

29:31

a discussion better perhaps or or just

29:34

as good as a as a person

29:35

can very good right but it's still

29:38

a seat needs persons

29:40

to sit together and talk and exchange

29:42

fuse and debate i think that is

29:46

at the core of of democracy and

29:50

and saw think that depth will still

29:52

be necessary but it can be done

29:54

much more smartly and then it has

29:57

been done in the past

30:01

absolutely

30:03

and is the point i would like

30:04

to touch her later and

30:09

i'm thinking about all the different approaches

30:11

in the inside the the european union

30:15

if you have seen some differences between

30:18

the yeah the understanding of political deck

30:21

and implementation of it in different countries

30:26

yeah i think if you look at

30:28

france for

30:29

well i mean my car has has

30:31

tried

30:33

a lot of things are particularly the

30:35

beginning in a row the about it

30:36

in my book and the the you

30:38

know they used apps early on for

30:40

canvassing and basically the took a lot

30:44

of insights and and learnings of course

30:48

from the obama campaign some of the

30:50

people that were involved hell

30:53

thing mccraw well so involved with the

30:56

obama campaign so there has been a

30:58

convert cross pollination a transatlantic wise and

31:01

am i think mccraw was a big

31:03

believer and probably still a big believer

31:05

in technology and its potential read so

31:09

i think in that sense of france

31:11

has been at the forefront

31:13

i'm not sure that mccall has really

31:17

and you know kept pushing this and

31:21

as hard as he could ask but

31:22

of course he recently also had the

31:25

ai action summit and in in paris

31:28

that was organized by make dot org

31:31

that that also showed on the you

31:34

know very impressively what what you can

31:36

do with with politics and of course

31:38

political take was also part of fed

31:41

i know that the commission and the

31:43

european commission is also trying out things

31:45

and helping assisting deliberation did that limit

31:50

of processes with digital tools and i

31:55

think if you if you look at

31:57

and germany and i would say there

32:01

is potential to to improve and to

32:05

and to catch up and the uk

32:08

you know a labor of

32:11

the last year in the in the

32:13

campaign has tried out stuff so there

32:16

is stuff happening reds it's not that

32:19

and that there's nothing going on and

32:23

also germany there are start ups and

32:26

tools and that have been in tried

32:30

out in the

32:31

the recent election campaign rights and where

32:34

you can wear you use the i

32:36

to assist in informing citizens and helping

32:40

then inform themselves about the the programs

32:43

manifested of the parties great staff right

32:46

that i think took the the the

32:48

question is always in europe is about

32:51

scale

32:51

link so once you have reached that

32:53

level and and you have found your

32:56

in a certain certain client base in

32:59

perhaps even that pays you i think

33:02

the question is how to go to

33:03

the next stage and this is where

33:06

we get to the question of of

33:08

funding in europe there is no expert

33:11

or for political tech now in the

33:13

aftermath of the political tech summit and

33:16

there have been ideas and to to

33:19

push something like that to establish a

33:21

kind of an investment fund and of

33:23

course if this happens and this would

33:27

be with degrades because this will then

33:29

via a prototype

33:31

type that could be hopefully replicated and

33:34

groans and that that would be fantastic

33:37

because money's is is of course of

33:39

the essence you need to pay people

33:41

to do stuff you can only get

33:43

so much from from the people volunteering

33:45

their time and i'm also not sure

33:47

that that you should and could do

33:49

everything from either in a tropical

33:51

or or oregon of public money i

33:54

think they have a role to play

33:56

but then again and you know those

33:58

tools also need to find clients to

34:00

be sustainable so i think the potential

34:04

is huge a think the market is

34:06

not there yet and again what we're

34:09

trying to do with political tech summit

34:11

and

34:11

and and the you know and and

34:13

other things that we do and in

34:15

in this field are trying to organize

34:17

this community also digitally i was new

34:20

platform that will be launching soon and

34:23

i think this is really about

34:27

getting people together a good chance sharing

34:29

ideas and then you know really kind

34:31

of getting down to business and getting

34:32

stuff done

34:37

i'm thinking about come

34:40

yet what you were saying before i

34:43

mean debating there should be likened the

34:44

corner of democracy and the i'm thinking

34:48

about the importance of nata not though

34:51

once before the digital era was very

34:54

important but nowadays the it is absolutely

34:58

very important because the i mean it

35:01

cannot lose policymakers to know which kind

35:03

of things citizen who like to see

35:07

happen but also now though is useful

35:10

to train a i

35:12

systems

35:14

and i'm thinking about the if you

35:16

think it will be possible in the

35:18

future for people that the participate in

35:21

the public life with some mass civic

35:25

decker software

35:28

like to to compensate them because they

35:31

see this convergence between the like a

35:34

i participate in the public life so

35:36

i use my time my free time

35:40

and also i'm producing data

35:43

that is most useful for technology and

35:46

the public life

35:49

yeah and i know when when when

35:52

i grew up and i think the

35:53

still as is true for for many

35:55

platforms are there was a saying if

35:58

you don't pay for the product you

36:00

are the product threat though this was

36:03

of course about selling your data and

36:07

and of course we know many negative

36:08

examples

36:09

all that and

36:12

of course nowadays it's also about not

36:15

not selling but also training models on

36:17

on on your data read and and

36:19

and as you said if there is

36:21

a value in this if you add

36:23

value by adding your data and you

36:27

should basically the only your your data

36:30

and then of course the question is

36:31

you know what's

36:32

the model and in in in in

36:34

monetizing that so i think absolutely this

36:38

is a you know and an interesting

36:40

discussion and and and of course it's

36:44

also about you know democracy who owns

36:46

your data and but but but in

36:49

the end it's also to some degree

36:50

of about business read i mean if

36:52

if again if you create value you

36:54

should be able to to cake to

36:56

to capture some of the value i

36:59

eat yourself in in some way so

37:02

and yeah i think the discussion is

37:04

ongoing i think it's a very interesting

37:06

one of the data protection has had

37:09

undergone significant change i mean when when

37:11

i grew up

37:12

twenty five thirty years ago and keep

37:17

of didn't really care much about and

37:20

data protection and and and this has

37:23

of course changed dramatically these days a

37:27

sikh these days we we need to

37:29

seek heart whether we haven't already

37:32

related to sometimes where data protection and

37:37

certainly in some countries so i think

37:41

we should look at that i think

37:43

we should experiment percent and i think

37:45

it could to the beneath could be

37:46

to the benefit of everyone if refined

37:48

their creative models and solutions that benefit

37:52

the the data providers which are in

37:54

in in that case that you mentioned

37:56

also of course the citizens

38:02

but the i'm wondering if the red

38:04

now teresa summer i dunno institution political

38:07

party or some town that there is

38:12

trying to use the our civic that

38:16

platform and at the same time compensating

38:19

people that participate

38:22

i don't know to be honest i

38:26

i would know of an example

38:29

do you

38:32

nah actually know but the a yeah

38:36

i was wondering if from

38:39

some one was exploring in this direction

38:43

because the

38:46

yeah i see that every one of

38:48

as is very busy like studying working

38:50

and everything and so something we forgot

38:53

about public life that is quite important

38:57

and the and so i thought okay

39:00

that could be a way to motivate

39:02

people to participate more and is is

39:04

also related to the question why some

39:05

people parties

39:06

separating public life and some not

39:09

yeah i mean i mean what i

39:10

know of and are are are some

39:13

part is use and

39:16

platforms that incentivize you and through credits

39:22

and so it's not the same as

39:24

money but but some part is used

39:26

platforms that you know went when you

39:29

volunteer for an hour or for set

39:31

amount of hours and when you show

39:34

up when you

39:36

help us something then you get credits

39:38

an honor on an app on a

39:40

platform and you could use those credits

39:42

for different things and so that's you

39:45

know a a step in that direction

39:47

if you will you help you you

39:50

know you're actively participate to contribute and

39:53

then you get something out of it

39:55

and so

39:56

so i i i think does i

39:58

again interesting experiments and of course there

40:01

also arguments against that because some say

40:05

you know it it should be an

40:07

internal motivation and if you engage yourself

40:11

in in politics and the shouldn't be

40:13

so much externally incentivized i don't

40:16

there's a right or wrong and but

40:18

i think it it can be apart

40:20

and of course gamification which which that

40:24

is and is something absolutely that that

40:28

we should experiment with and and and

40:31

trout because of course people are less

40:34

engaged and then compared what but the

40:37

i used to be and and so

40:39

i think those kinds of approaches can

40:40

help us with turning things around

40:45

yet he has feel the same and

40:48

the i was wondering because of the

40:51

before you were saying that the some

40:54

parties are using some kind of technologies

40:57

for the error

41:01

and that if do you think that

41:04

we will see some new kind of

41:06

political party specializing

41:10

technology that really wants to the to

41:14

push these

41:17

to to use a lot of technology

41:19

or do your thing that all parties

41:21

will adopt so formidable yeah

41:25

are we already had the pirate parties

41:29

and thirty years ago so went when

41:33

i got started in in in politics

41:35

now that the there there was crossing

41:37

iceland another still the the pirate party

41:41

in in in the czech republic which

41:42

is quite successful and know

41:45

in germany there was a pirate party

41:47

and so and they have been very

41:51

innovative technology or of course you could

41:54

argue they've been saw innovative

41:59

and that that they couldn't handle in

42:02

a concepts like liquid democracy which are

42:05

quite complex but perhaps you know you

42:07

could argue have some of them are

42:09

some of the ideas were just a

42:11

bit too early when when you know

42:14

a i wasn't around and nowadays those

42:16

things could be helped with by i

42:19

said

42:19

to your question yes i think we'll

42:21

we'll see more tech driven parties of

42:25

course that's also a risk and mean

42:29

the extreme case of course is now

42:32

musk driving the republican party which is

42:36

of course a very negative case

42:39

our of tank overtaking a politics and

42:44

bot and yes i think looking at

42:47

the potential of of of taken the

42:49

potential of data and and the potential

42:51

of learning from the data and there's

42:55

lots of stuff happening and and as

42:56

always there are some parties who are

42:58

more open and

42:59

more innovative you know the innovation leaders

43:02

and then there's some early adopters and

43:03

then there there's a legates and but

43:06

absolutely will will see a step change

43:09

in the coming years because people and

43:12

and organizations will realize what the can

43:15

actually do with those tools are using

43:18

that kind of data

43:19

and of course using i so i

43:22

think we're only really we only have

43:24

scratched the surface so far and and

43:27

and you know if you look at

43:28

the us election if you look at

43:30

the general election and and i think

43:33

what you see is that they haven't

43:35

been the you know a i elections

43:37

that people expected them to be but

43:40

but i've heard people say you know

43:42

these would be the last elections where

43:44

we talk about the i because at

43:45

the next cycle in two three four

43:48

years everybody will expect there had to

43:50

be used to nobody will be talking

43:52

about it anymore so there's you know

43:54

a there is a revolution head it's

43:56

just not yet not there yet

43:59

and it won't be as as as

44:01

loud and and and and you know

44:05

i am a bumi as as and

44:09

as it is now in the in

44:10

the u s and hopefully it will

44:12

be of much more positive and much

44:15

more productive and and and less destructive

44:18

i think there is a fair chance

44:21

and this is again why they do

44:22

the political tech summit to make sure

44:24

that that

44:25

tech is being used or four pro

44:28

democratic purposes

44:33

i'm thinking about them

44:36

yet

44:38

the the pirate party and the the

44:42

liquid democracy and the i think that

44:46

threaten out there could be like to

44:49

two ways to kind of approaches one

44:52

is modernizing actual democratic processes using automation

44:56

the i e and other key

44:57

and of technologies

44:59

or or to experiment with new kind

45:03

of governance system as it could be

45:06

and liquid democracy or some kind of

45:10

direct democracy and the

45:15

yet do you i dunno what are

45:18

your thought about and maybe both should

45:23

be done so yet

45:27

i think i think that's the answer

45:28

right i don't i don't think we

45:30

should the one of the other i

45:31

don't think that it's it's realistic and

45:33

and and and desirable and to switch

45:38

you know and to liquid democracy or

45:41

some other concept overnight read i think

45:44

democracy has been there for some time

45:46

now it

45:47

has its flaws it needs to be

45:49

improved but the you know throwing the

45:52

kid i was the bath water i

45:54

don't think is advisable to yes and

45:58

we have to assist and democratic processes

46:01

with technology i think that's clear i

46:04

think absolutely we should challenge some some

46:06

processes

46:07

because if you digitize process that is

46:11

dysfunctional you get a dysfunctional digital process

46:14

and not you know of a functional

46:16

one so that's always the problem righteous

46:19

because it digitize it doesn't make it

46:20

necessarily better so yes of course we

46:23

have to take a step back and

46:25

and and and take a good look

46:27

at at at

46:28

the democratic processes isn't whether they are

46:29

still still up ah the for purpose

46:33

in the in the twenty first century

46:36

and then ah yes i think we

46:37

should also experiment thought we should experiment

46:41

it within defined limits and with defined

46:44

areas in a regular tourist sand boxes

46:47

are a great idea

46:48

dear to allow for some stuff to

46:50

loosen rules to try out some things

46:53

and to experiments but but not you

46:56

know with i dunno a country of

46:58

of eight a million or whatever it

46:59

might be and from from one monster

47:02

the next read i think that's that's

47:04

a risk that we shouldn't be be

47:06

taking and saw

47:08

yeah of course it's exciting and then

47:10

and then of course if it works

47:12

it works and some of the stuff

47:14

will work and then we should look

47:16

at how we could scale it and

47:18

not over ten or twenty years but

47:20

but but but quite fast read because

47:23

we again it's a battle against time

47:25

that were in so we need to

47:27

move as swifter

47:28

the

47:31

and talking about the risks and the

47:35

yeah the battle against time and is

47:39

is there anything that worry you about

47:42

the use of technologies or other kind

47:45

of things related to politics yeah the

47:48

i think you know i i

47:50

i like to think about this in

47:51

in in in positive versus negative disruption

47:55

and i think what we're seeing in

47:56

the in the u s and is

47:59

a quite clearly negative disruption at the

48:02

moment the way and mosque and others

48:04

go about the government and how the

48:06

disrupt processes and i have you know

48:09

impact in terms of

48:10

thousands of people and and the impact

48:13

of course or labour will become clear

48:16

in the coming months and years ahead

48:18

i think you know that's not that's

48:20

not desirable ah but but i think

48:23

what what what we do need is

48:24

a is a is it can have

48:25

positive disruption and off of some of

48:28

the processes that you nowhere

48:30

where citizens don't feel empowered not not

48:33

not involved in enough not informed enough

48:35

i think this read technology can can

48:37

help and a and of course of

48:40

you know if if that's chat chat

48:42

the and if if that's you know

48:45

asians i mean there there's so many

48:48

tools coming out read now and then

48:50

that that that can help web was

48:52

just kind of estrangement of politics and

48:54

the citizens as think that's where we

48:57

need to go and this is where

48:58

we need to take a hard look

49:00

off again you know our processes and

49:04

and not just tinkering right to think

49:05

the that democracy could have tinkering and

49:09

and pink in earth and slow

49:11

to change and is also of course

49:12

of protection mechanism of democracy protect itself

49:16

but a think you know went when

49:18

there's a disconnect between the speed of

49:19

change in in you know in india

49:22

in society and and and in in

49:24

culture and in technology and then on

49:26

the other hand politics you know them

49:29

the a that fights of battles to

49:31

to catch up and and losers the

49:33

momentum i think that this is where

49:35

we develop a problem and this is

49:37

where we are at the moment so

49:38

this was a positive disruption i think

49:40

there's lots of positive potential that needs

49:42

to be realized and and we need

49:44

to work together to to to do

49:45

that and fast

49:51

and

49:52

how to reach these positive the disruption

49:56

and i'm very good as the when

49:58

you say that we have to be

50:00

faster

50:03

how much faster

50:06

this is yeah that's a good question

50:08

how much faster well i think if

50:10

you look at many countries and right

50:13

now i think we're talking about one

50:16

or two electoral cycles which is some

50:19

some something between fires and and and

50:22

ten years and this is what we're

50:24

looking at dried i don't believe that

50:26

you know the next election might be

50:27

the last one even though you know

50:29

and i'm not sure was the united

50:30

states thread now but never bet against

50:34

the united states so i i hope

50:36

that there was that there was still

50:37

find a way and

50:41

quite critical a also in europe ready

50:43

to look at if you look at

50:45

germany she look at france and where

50:48

the thyroid has been gaining and and

50:51

and of course other countries where the

50:52

far is already and in in in

50:55

the leader in government i i think

50:57

it's you know is it's it's five

51:00

five two

51:01

two to twelve perhaps we still can

51:03

change things were still can with the

51:06

can impact and dem it padma democracy

51:09

and change in a positive wave and

51:11

but but we don't have time for

51:13

ever read and as a some some

51:15

people and organizations i think to act

51:17

as if there would be and you

51:19

know unless

51:21

at a time there is not and

51:23

so i'm i'm neither believing that that

51:25

we're doomed and nor nor do i

51:27

believe that everything will be fine after

51:29

all a think that you know narrative

51:31

of progress has been broken and and

51:35

and so i think we have it

51:36

in our hands but within the next

51:38

know faster ten years is what what

51:41

we're looking at

51:41

at in achieving this can have positive

51:44

disruption of of democracy and and this

51:47

is what i'm i'm i'm trying to

51:48

helpless

51:51

and the over another couple of question

51:53

issue of time and i have i

51:56

have five more minutes then i unfortunately

51:58

to go perfect the and try to

52:00

be very creek and have you seen

52:04

the any kind of different approaches to

52:06

political tech related the to

52:10

i dunno left to right the

52:14

in europe because before we were talking

52:16

about the different approaches from different countries

52:20

so i'm wondering about the

52:24

well i i think the and the

52:27

the left and has traditionally more looked

52:32

at grassroots mobilization grassroots fundraising and and

52:40

and so therefore and

52:43

the i think overall there would be

52:45

more and apps and tools that would

52:49

also as align themselves with the the

52:53

progressive spectrum of politics and who do

52:56

those kinds of things then and for

52:59

example on the right now i think

53:01

over the last year's

53:03

as we cease we've seen some changes

53:06

i think we've seen that the that

53:08

the ride has taken up some and

53:11

some parts are aspects of of the

53:13

left including becoming much better ads mobilizing

53:19

and organizing a grassroots activists

53:23

of voters and influencers and so therefore

53:28

it's not that clear cut any more

53:31

and and then of course there are

53:33

also some provided and vendors who who

53:36

do not align themselves with with with

53:38

any political spectrum battle just sell their

53:40

product and so so there's

53:43

for it i mean there i i

53:46

i couldn't say that there is nowadays

53:49

and a clear distinction i think if

53:52

you look at the u s and

53:54

i think

53:57

there it is the case there that

53:58

probably that the the that the left

54:01

as more money available for technology out

54:04

of the reasons that i and that

54:06

a highlighted and but but but that

54:09

he dead might might be changing as

54:11

well

54:14

last question if you have both a

54:18

message for all the people that are

54:20

working in the political tech field

54:25

i think it's an exciting time to

54:26

be involved in political take whether you

54:28

are in a political organization or you

54:30

are you know a vendor and adviser

54:32

and a software developer i i think

54:36

there's so much happening right now that

54:38

can help democracy that can help improve

54:41

politics so i think it's

54:43

it's a super interesting community we're very

54:47

glad to to have gotten to know

54:50

some some really exciting people some really

54:52

interesting organizations from across europe and beyond

54:55

so my message would be in all

54:57

let's let's say a get in touch

54:59

if if you haven't been in touch

55:02

with us and with me already

55:04

a you can you can go to

55:06

a political tech about you and you

55:09

can subscribe and of course you can

55:12

attend the political tech summit which will

55:14

again happen in berlin and generates when

55:16

it's when of six would be great

55:18

to see you there because there's so

55:19

much to learn and so much to

55:21

do and if not now wins

55:26

thank you are a lot to live

55:29

thank you very much in hundred and

55:31

grandson

55:35

the