Josef Lentsch about the Political Tech Summit and huge potential in digitally assisted democracy

the so welcome on another episode of

democracy innovator innovator spot gusta and our

guest of today is a joseph lynch

sorry

and i mean europe political entrepreneur book

but you have written books and your

thunder and ceo of their political tech

summit

and so as the first thing thank

you for your time excited me

and them

and would like to tell us something

about their political tech summit i mean

because it was the it was last

month yeah so

negative thanks to much so he had

the political take some it was

and a premier it was europe's first

event in that of that kind and

we can protect pepper carrying it for

about a year now

the idea was to to close a

gap and in the in the landscape

in the political landscape us in the

market and a kept of because their

politics is a very fragmented and landscape

still in in europe and politics is

very much sir national

the based and of course it's organized

alongside politik families so there is not

enough learning and particularly within the agreed

that the democratic center from center left

us and the right and so we

thought it will degrade to create the

space where peers can learn from

each other very practically with a future

technology but also where and vendors and

provide us could meet with potential clients

are where people could meet new partners

and i'm very happy to say that

it has been very successful was more

than six hundred people's from more than

forty nations

it's and we have had great feedback

was lots of thirteen and interviewing and

people are really positive about it though

we already announced that there will be

a second edition and in january twenty

six in berlin once again but for

now a think care we we are

i have their very had been delighted

well this has actually worked and and

actually the impact it already has had

with fred from from people that they

already took stuff and and applied it

within their organizations within their political parties

unions associations and and and and that's

great that's that's exactly what what they

want to happen

and m i was thinking about them

i mean the summit is about political

attack and the there is the distinction

between civic decker and gothic if you

call the tellers the something more about

her happy have this tempted to so

and civic tech is about empowering citizens

digitally so for example with transparency apps

about you know parliaments and and and

mended or nurse or stuff like fix

my street to for people

can can ah putting complaints or can

suggest ideas for improving city life also

this would be all and the civic

tech am also saved civic participation so

when it comes to do you know

deliberative formats are or can't i'm consulting

our citizens and they're are also quite

a lot of platforms for that and

it's quite an established field on the

other hand gaffe tech is about digitizing

the public sector so it looks at

the administration's and and and how we

can improve how we can make administration

the government more

efficient with digital means and and in

between between gas to consider take there's

a space where our organizations lag political

parties leaf but also you know unions

associations are some the prophets the businesses

anyone who's involved the political arena who's

doing politics

communication containing electioneering of those organizations of

quiet and distinct and special needs are

there are of course touch points at

intersections with gas take as well as

civic tech absolutely and some organizations could

be a think are called for example

gastric as well as politico

tech and so on but but we

really saw us at the summit that

it's quite a special community that has

not had the chance to get together

so far and the political tech summit

brought this political tech community together for

the first time

yeah i i see the bill from

a civic decker and the gothic or

i mean that sometimes they overlap each

other also because it's a very new

field and the before going back and

talking about political thinker and were

wanted to ask you if you like

to share something about your background personal

background also eventually starting from when you

were a child or

i'm an austrian by birth and lives

in berlin was my family but i

grew up a close to vienna close

the to the hungarian border so to

me and i i remember to very

important moments in my life politically speaking

and one of course was

the the the fall of the berlin

wall and the other one of them

was when the the iron curtain of

came down a close to our home

so we always had to go to

hungary to visit friends and wait for

two three hours at the border and

suddenly the border was gone and and

both of these

things of course happened he close proximity

and around the time where i was

thirteen or so saw in my youth

really and and so they were quiet

of course left a big impression on

me and this is why i think

me and also you know many of

my generation are really quite optimistic about

progress

as and about the future and which

is of course very much challenge shred

now but but not too long later

of course also in a facebook emerged

and back in the day twitter and

and there was the arab spring so

the all this optimism then was projected

onto the technology and

so you know i i was of

among the first to to to use

those things and really loved them because

it helped me stay in touch with

friends and and learn about new things

and of course you know facebook twitter

many other platforms are very much of

the critiqued a retina for for many

things and a

a i still think they they they

have the have value to certain degree

but in any way i think back

back in the day the of the

this techno almost utopianism when i grew

up off you know take outing to

improve the god democracy and and and

helping to fix some problems within the

political

system has now almost turned into the

opposite where people now almost have a

can of dystopian few of technology that

it destroys and undermines democracy i i

of course i'm not a believer in

extremes i think while they are you

know we can make fair arguments for

both of those things

and i think what's interesting to me

is how can we use technology and

what's out there are to improve political

communication management campaigning and because we know

that democracy is under attack also partially

by and through technology

and we know that that politics needs

to change we know why we know

or even what needs to change a

think the hardest be at his house

of what i've always been interested in

and taken the day in two thousand

and twelve i was involved in in

finding a new political party in austria

which now entering government it's called nails

us so my interest was always in

or i saw we ought we have

all those ideas and ideas of course

are cheap and anyone can have ideas

but not everyone can or as is

is willing to to put in the

hours to actually make stuff happen so

i've always tried to help make stuff

happen not always successfully

the but what always what gets me

excited this doing staff creating stuff co-creating

stuff getting others to use the stuff

and then like with political tech summit

finding from their feet thick and their

responses and direction instead is actually useful

in a very practical sense i think

this is what we need much much

more of them i'm glad to say

that there are more and more what

i will call political entrepreneurs around are

doing at establishing new initiatives and they're

still not enough funding but that is

as i also changing there's more interest

from investors ah also philanthropists in helping

to do those kinds of things so

i think we

we see a positive development the only

question release 'em are we fast enough

and and i don't think subsequently to

become faster and bolder and more courageous

because as i sat in the beginning

and democracy is under threat and and

it's the it's a in aware in

the battle against

time i'm afraid

very interesting thoughts about the one about

them

the speed the about the

them and the yeah i have another

question more a related about the europe

professional background or academic background you partially

also talked about it i mean about

your professional background but that if issue

like to say something

so i'm i'm a psychologist by training

and i i did my first masters

at the university of vienna and in

psychology at an and though i'm i'm

very interested in indian individual perspective psychologies

about individual behavior behavior and

of and and in impressions and decisions

and and of course of the last

year's lot of stuff has happened in

combination with neuropsychology really understanding how the

brain works and how people make the

decisions had also

oh how are you know in intellectual

thoughts how ratio and relates to the

emotion and and and that actually emotion

is very much what drives us as

as human beings even though we like

to believe otherwise so so that's a

to this day i'm still taking often

a very

individualistic perspective also of politics read understanding

why individual actors and act as they

do why that takes her decisions are

sometimes of course disastrous decisions and sometimes

for the better whether the motives for

drives them and whether they're looking for

and what role as emotion play so

that that that's one part of of

my scientific and academic and perspective the

other parties that my second masters and

has been in public administration

though i if you will have a

more abstract more systemic a perspective off

and politics of government of of the

state so really swimming out and trying

to understand of those structures and processes

of politics then for

deuce a certain policy and i think

as we have seen over the last

year's really is that the policies often

are not so much to problem as

the politics because the politics is in

many cases of these days the bottleneck

you cannot get stuff

then you cannot get staff decided upon

their lot lot of blockages and then

of course you know it's very hard

even if you can get something done

to communicated which is still of course

part of the politics and the implementation

so this is what i've always been

interested in have been more of politics

nerd if you will

then perhaps a policy nerd am still

interested their much a policy of course

in it's it's essential to politics but

but this is or always the part

and how the people extended which is

again more the second psychological question and

and so i've written a book which

is called political entrepreneurship way

where i looked at at nails the

party i helped coffin and austria but

back then in a two thousand and

nineteen also other new political parties in

slovakia in in in spain and france

and asked you know how have they

managed to be successful i have to

manage to enter parliament what have

they done and who are those people

behind them what has driven them how

have they extend what mr methods has

to use to again very much practical

and pragmatic book on on how you

can actually do something that complex as

founding a new political party and then

get it to aunt

parliament and even perhaps governments and that

that is the combination of many many

things that i am interested in public

administration psychology politics as a whole and

that that's that's what get me what

gets me excited

the the question about why some people

participate in public life and some not

the is something that i asked to

to myself many times and in our

way weights also i am interested the

by ye

do that

this word that is the

the week deck of but also a

gothic and everything related

and the think about what you were

saying

so i think the reason like are

sort of cultural problem because er visits

those were something i want to you

about the

if will stevens and playmakers if they

have enough knowledge about the these political

tech platform movements because that i mean

there are

policymakers then there are citizens and it

seems simple i mean technology of old

very fast and it seems that we

i mean must of the people are

not aware of the potential use of

technology

absolutely i think you're you're spot on

that there is of course and and

awareness read of of technology and and

and in an increasing awareness of that

technology is political and and that it

can at again right now you know

how it can harm the body politics

and and democracy a think in general

people are aware of that read what

they are not aware of are so

what tools to a have available what

what tech stack can i build to

do my chalk which he is you

know campaigning communicating winning elaine

actions and better read that there and

there's a gap and and i just

talked to somebody and from a political

organization yesterday and and the told me

well you know political parties a but

also

i think that that applies as much

to you know to unions associations and

other political organizations they burn an awful

lot of money on useless take read

and and and and that means it

might not be a better tool but

it might not be the right tools

sometimes it may also be that tools

random you know

in political tech there are many many

custom developments because every organization thinks their

unique and they have unique needs and

of course there are big dick platforms

that you can buy off the sheltered

a very expensive and awesome too big

and to to powerful so that's also

a problem but then the conclude

asian that you have to be and

stuff or by yourself because you know

best what you need is not necessarily

have the right one because often those

platforms and tools to get developed for

specific organization get developed once are not

necessarily program to are very well and

then and then the don't get developed

the

cost is costs money

and effort and people don't use it

and then you'll have of these this

leg at the legacy tech landscapes of

of text stakes that are you know

years old out of state and are

not the used because they're clunky saw

saw yes there is a big and

innovation gap in politics of what we

sought the political texts ahmed is that

people once they see what they can

actually what they could have what the

could use and and and how they

could you know potentially stick tools together

and there's a c r m there's

a social media management tool

there's the data analysis tools as mobilization

platform and you can put those together

then you suddenly realize what potential is

is in their right of course it's

not done by just buying it or

subscribing to something and paying for it

of course it needs to be implemented

this next problem right because then

and you talked about culture you need

a certain organizational culture your needs a

structures he needs responsibilities a accountability to

actually then make the organization use that

tool and learn that tool and and

the know it into the that the

muscle so to say and of of

of the organization so that

that's all quite complex it's it's it's

it's it's doable rights it has been

done before and of course as always

some organizations to better than others what

we also trying to do with we're

trying to make case that is available

and speakers available who have achieve something

was done something in the field of

political tech and really

the get people to learn and how

they can actually do something like that

you never can copy paste you know

from one organization to the other but

of course you can learn about success

factors about you know what we're about

fails which is also important so i

think there's an increasing awareness at a

people look for solutions and for tools

and this is what we want to

provide

the i i saw these are fragmentation

in political a thick like where every

organization build their own custom platform or

may be they do

the by the platform from from someone

else and several times they thought that

the may be

do people that are working civic tech

or gothic the can also collaborate on

building a platform that can be like

modular and thought that the

like it can be customized i'm thinking

about deseed him but the test was

saw about other kind of platform so

you don't have to build a platform

from zero every time but you're just

modify something

and i'm curious about the like for

a political party that the wants to

use of some news new technologies

do

what has like how to be successful

for a political party

as identity question of course out to

be successful well i think it's a

it's a it's of course it's it's

it's not just one factor right it's

about

realizing first of all what is out

there right we we have two hundred

fifty or more organizations already on our

radar in europe and beyond who provides

different tools and platforms and apps for

for political organizations right and i would

patch that most political parties and other

organizations can probably name two or three

you know i sought so there is

this big untapped potential of tools and

i saying and all that that you

don't have perhaps you have the best

tools and then the congratulations a chances

are you don't and then

you know what are the alternatives but

starts with realizing of course one's needs

and and conversations with potential partners can

help because people often don't realize what

the coderre for until the see what

they can if so to this is

where it all starts and then as

i said it's

really about the the the implementation it's

about and not just buying the tool

but but but getting the organization to

use the tool to to and ever

been to understand why does make sense

and to show them how this helps

drive a continuous improvement across the organization

says really a i a

and in complex and challenging process but

once you get up get you know

a lot of people adept sorry adopt

particular tool in your organization than the

magic happens because suddenly you get data

read suddenly get data that he can

learn from from from conversations with citizens

raw mobilizing of volunteers

from social media and then you can

make better data-driven decisions and and and

of course then this becomes ideally a

virtuous circle where you can show and

demonstrate to people that their work has

helped you to

make better decisions which has helped them

to be more efficient and about their

chalk and more effective which helps everyone

to be better winning elections communicating and

campaigning i think that's that's where the

magic liars of course this doesn't happen

overnight right this is hard work

work this also needs people to own

this and drive this we know from

talking to so many political organizations and

parties unions associations that most of them

don't have

as head of take for example redd

somebody who owns the technology within the

organization and if the have someone it's

often a person that is not necessarily

on the on the executive level but

often more an operative person right well

this is not ideal

you'll need someone to to really one

the portfolio what we see many organizations

instead and

there's a fragmentation was in the organization

of tools so this you know department

uses this tool the other the uses

not at all those don't talk to

each other so you create different data

pools and then of course you loose

and the the big picture you lose

to three hundred sixty a few of

you know your your your voltage

years your activists wherever it might be

that you're looking at and that's a

big big problem because then you can

learn what you could learn from from

from those from the information that you

can create so those are some factors

and leads you know it or not

necessarily rocket science or

our new buds it still is hard

to get them get them right and

if you get them right a think

political take can really make a difference

and them

i'm thinking that the right now there

is a sort of transition like from

them physical word to the digital one

was related to governance and participation and

them

i know that is not possible to

i to know when and if or

and a complete the transition will happen

a laker

yeah everything is changing so fast the

two years ago we didn't have voted

to pity and the or other kind

of from llm

and the though i'm wondering if you

i mean i know it's impossible to

say when and the for this will

happen but if you think a few

think that i dunno in ten years

sir or twenty years the like a

there will be

a transition toward technology because i mean

nowadays and i mean politicians policymaker they

have their

publica such an account i mean where

the right thing sir citizens can reply

or may i'm thinking that the some

a political party can ever private whatsapp

group or something else

but this is quite the informal in

a way

and am thinking

ifa we can estimate the when night

we left and

the yeah and as i think there's

of course huge potential in in technology

in making it you schools for democracy

for for pro democratic politics there's no

question about the drive then again at

the moment we see i am afraid

more that deleterious effects but that doesn't

mean

make it a a you know less

so that that there's a lot of

positive potential and really i really believe

in that so when when will we

get there well i mean we we

are a think

in we're making progress in the sense

of that you know they're there for

example technologies that that help assist and

facilitate the liberty processes and and and

and then there's also of course now

if you think about be key and

others are the

tools and discuss listening and summarizing of

conversations and and i think there's so

much in this but but you know

to your question i am not sure

that we will you know leave and

and that we should leave the fish

ethical space because i think politics will

and should always be to certain degree

physical so what i believe in is

rather let's say digitally assisted democracy read

and of course we can also talk

about stuff like and e-voting right and

and and other things that that that

mouse lower the

the hurdle for participation that allow for

in participation in the political process independent

off location of time i think those

are great things but i think they're

still and necessity in politics for people

to get together in-person sit down and

and talk i would i would even

argue that that this hasn't happened

as much perhaps as it as it

could and should have that people are

more and you're not engaging in the

digital the sphere that this has helped

or has accelerated a sudden estrangement from

the of you know from for citizen

from each other but also from from

the play

critical a classes so there there is

this kind of undermining of of of

cohesion politically speaking that i'm worried about

so i absolutely believe that their digital

tools that political tech and can help

us a compliment that and and and

and and imp

proof that experience and you know why

why should a human take notes if

if if if a if a talk

can do it and if they can

help us facilitate and organise a add

a discussion better perhaps or or just

as good as a as a person

can very good right but it's still

a seat needs persons

to sit together and talk and exchange

fuse and debate i think that is

at the core of of democracy and

and saw think that depth will still

be necessary but it can be done

much more smartly and then it has

been done in the past

absolutely

and is the point i would like

to touch her later and

i'm thinking about all the different approaches

in the inside the the european union

if you have seen some differences between

the yeah the understanding of political deck

and implementation of it in different countries

yeah i think if you look at

france for

well i mean my car has has

tried

a lot of things are particularly the

beginning in a row the about it

in my book and the the you

know they used apps early on for

canvassing and basically the took a lot

of insights and and learnings of course

from the obama campaign some of the

people that were involved hell

thing mccraw well so involved with the

obama campaign so there has been a

convert cross pollination a transatlantic wise and

am i think mccraw was a big

believer and probably still a big believer

in technology and its potential read so

i think in that sense of france

has been at the forefront

i'm not sure that mccall has really

and you know kept pushing this and

as hard as he could ask but

of course he recently also had the

ai action summit and in in paris

that was organized by make dot org

that that also showed on the you

know very impressively what what you can

do with with politics and of course

political take was also part of fed

i know that the commission and the

european commission is also trying out things

and helping assisting deliberation did that limit

of processes with digital tools and i

think if you if you look at

and germany and i would say there

is potential to to improve and to

and to catch up and the uk

you know a labor of

the last year in the in the

campaign has tried out stuff so there

is stuff happening reds it's not that

and that there's nothing going on and

also germany there are start ups and

tools and that have been in tried

out in the

the recent election campaign rights and where

you can wear you use the i

to assist in informing citizens and helping

then inform themselves about the the programs

manifested of the parties great staff right

that i think took the the the

question is always in europe is about

scale

link so once you have reached that

level and and you have found your

in a certain certain client base in

perhaps even that pays you i think

the question is how to go to

the next stage and this is where

we get to the question of of

funding in europe there is no expert

or for political tech now in the

aftermath of the political tech summit and

there have been ideas and to to

push something like that to establish a

kind of an investment fund and of

course if this happens and this would

be with degrades because this will then

via a prototype

type that could be hopefully replicated and

groans and that that would be fantastic

because money's is is of course of

the essence you need to pay people

to do stuff you can only get

so much from from the people volunteering

their time and i'm also not sure

that that you should and could do

everything from either in a tropical

or or oregon of public money i

think they have a role to play

but then again and you know those

tools also need to find clients to

be sustainable so i think the potential

is huge a think the market is

not there yet and again what we're

trying to do with political tech summit

and

and and the you know and and

other things that we do and in

in this field are trying to organize

this community also digitally i was new

platform that will be launching soon and

i think this is really about

getting people together a good chance sharing

ideas and then you know really kind

of getting down to business and getting

stuff done

i'm thinking about come

yet what you were saying before i

mean debating there should be likened the

corner of democracy and the i'm thinking

about the importance of nata not though

once before the digital era was very

important but nowadays the it is absolutely

very important because the i mean it

cannot lose policymakers to know which kind

of things citizen who like to see

happen but also now though is useful

to train a i

systems

and i'm thinking about the if you

think it will be possible in the

future for people that the participate in

the public life with some mass civic

decker software

like to to compensate them because they

see this convergence between the like a

i participate in the public life so

i use my time my free time

and also i'm producing data

that is most useful for technology and

the public life

yeah and i know when when when

i grew up and i think the

still as is true for for many

platforms are there was a saying if

you don't pay for the product you

are the product threat though this was

of course about selling your data and

and of course we know many negative

examples

all that and

of course nowadays it's also about not

not selling but also training models on

on on your data read and and

and as you said if there is

a value in this if you add

value by adding your data and you

should basically the only your your data

and then of course the question is

you know what's

the model and in in in in

monetizing that so i think absolutely this

is a you know and an interesting

discussion and and and of course it's

also about you know democracy who owns

your data and but but but in

the end it's also to some degree

of about business read i mean if

if again if you create value you

should be able to to cake to

to capture some of the value i

eat yourself in in some way so

and yeah i think the discussion is

ongoing i think it's a very interesting

one of the data protection has had

undergone significant change i mean when when

i grew up

twenty five thirty years ago and keep

of didn't really care much about and

data protection and and and this has

of course changed dramatically these days a

sikh these days we we need to

seek heart whether we haven't already

related to sometimes where data protection and

certainly in some countries so i think

we should look at that i think

we should experiment percent and i think

it could to the beneath could be

to the benefit of everyone if refined

their creative models and solutions that benefit

the the data providers which are in

in in that case that you mentioned

also of course the citizens

but the i'm wondering if the red

now teresa summer i dunno institution political

party or some town that there is

trying to use the our civic that

platform and at the same time compensating

people that participate

i don't know to be honest i

i would know of an example

do you

nah actually know but the a yeah

i was wondering if from

some one was exploring in this direction

because the

yeah i see that every one of

as is very busy like studying working

and everything and so something we forgot

about public life that is quite important

and the and so i thought okay

that could be a way to motivate

people to participate more and is is

also related to the question why some

people parties

separating public life and some not

yeah i mean i mean what i

know of and are are are some

part is use and

platforms that incentivize you and through credits

and so it's not the same as

money but but some part is used

platforms that you know went when you

volunteer for an hour or for set

amount of hours and when you show

up when you

help us something then you get credits

an honor on an app on a

platform and you could use those credits

for different things and so that's you

know a a step in that direction

if you will you help you you

know you're actively participate to contribute and

then you get something out of it

and so

so i i i think does i

again interesting experiments and of course there

also arguments against that because some say

you know it it should be an

internal motivation and if you engage yourself

in in politics and the shouldn't be

so much externally incentivized i don't

there's a right or wrong and but

i think it it can be apart

and of course gamification which which that

is and is something absolutely that that

we should experiment with and and and

trout because of course people are less

engaged and then compared what but the

i used to be and and so

i think those kinds of approaches can

help us with turning things around

yet he has feel the same and

the i was wondering because of the

before you were saying that the some

parties are using some kind of technologies

for the error

and that if do you think that

we will see some new kind of

political party specializing

technology that really wants to the to

push these

to to use a lot of technology

or do your thing that all parties

will adopt so formidable yeah

are we already had the pirate parties

and thirty years ago so went when

i got started in in in politics

now that the there there was crossing

iceland another still the the pirate party

in in in the czech republic which

is quite successful and know

in germany there was a pirate party

and so and they have been very

innovative technology or of course you could

argue they've been saw innovative

and that that they couldn't handle in

a concepts like liquid democracy which are

quite complex but perhaps you know you

could argue have some of them are

some of the ideas were just a

bit too early when when you know

a i wasn't around and nowadays those

things could be helped with by i

said

to your question yes i think we'll

we'll see more tech driven parties of

course that's also a risk and mean

the extreme case of course is now

musk driving the republican party which is

of course a very negative case

our of tank overtaking a politics and

bot and yes i think looking at

the potential of of of taken the

potential of data and and the potential

of learning from the data and there's

lots of stuff happening and and as

always there are some parties who are

more open and

more innovative you know the innovation leaders

and then there's some early adopters and

then there there's a legates and but

absolutely will will see a step change

in the coming years because people and

and organizations will realize what the can

actually do with those tools are using

that kind of data

and of course using i so i

think we're only really we only have

scratched the surface so far and and

and you know if you look at

the us election if you look at

the general election and and i think

what you see is that they haven't

been the you know a i elections

that people expected them to be but

but i've heard people say you know

these would be the last elections where

we talk about the i because at

the next cycle in two three four

years everybody will expect there had to

be used to nobody will be talking

about it anymore so there's you know

a there is a revolution head it's

just not yet not there yet

and it won't be as as as

loud and and and and you know

i am a bumi as as and

as it is now in the in

the u s and hopefully it will

be of much more positive and much

more productive and and and less destructive

i think there is a fair chance

and this is again why they do

the political tech summit to make sure

that that

tech is being used or four pro

democratic purposes

i'm thinking about them

yet

the the pirate party and the the

liquid democracy and the i think that

threaten out there could be like to

two ways to kind of approaches one

is modernizing actual democratic processes using automation

the i e and other key

and of technologies

or or to experiment with new kind

of governance system as it could be

and liquid democracy or some kind of

direct democracy and the

yet do you i dunno what are

your thought about and maybe both should

be done so yet

i think i think that's the answer

right i don't i don't think we

should the one of the other i

don't think that it's it's realistic and

and and and desirable and to switch

you know and to liquid democracy or

some other concept overnight read i think

democracy has been there for some time

now it

has its flaws it needs to be

improved but the you know throwing the

kid i was the bath water i

don't think is advisable to yes and

we have to assist and democratic processes

with technology i think that's clear i

think absolutely we should challenge some some

processes

because if you digitize process that is

dysfunctional you get a dysfunctional digital process

and not you know of a functional

one so that's always the problem righteous

because it digitize it doesn't make it

necessarily better so yes of course we

have to take a step back and

and and and take a good look

at at at

the democratic processes isn't whether they are

still still up ah the for purpose

in the in the twenty first century

and then ah yes i think we

should also experiment thought we should experiment

it within defined limits and with defined

areas in a regular tourist sand boxes

are a great idea

dear to allow for some stuff to

loosen rules to try out some things

and to experiments but but not you

know with i dunno a country of

of eight a million or whatever it

might be and from from one monster

the next read i think that's that's

a risk that we shouldn't be be

taking and saw

yeah of course it's exciting and then

and then of course if it works

it works and some of the stuff

will work and then we should look

at how we could scale it and

not over ten or twenty years but

but but but quite fast read because

we again it's a battle against time

that were in so we need to

move as swifter

the

and talking about the risks and the

yeah the battle against time and is

is there anything that worry you about

the use of technologies or other kind

of things related to politics yeah the

i think you know i i

i like to think about this in

in in in positive versus negative disruption

and i think what we're seeing in

the in the u s and is

a quite clearly negative disruption at the

moment the way and mosque and others

go about the government and how the

disrupt processes and i have you know

impact in terms of

thousands of people and and the impact

of course or labour will become clear

in the coming months and years ahead

i think you know that's not that's

not desirable ah but but i think

what what what we do need is

a is a is it can have

positive disruption and off of some of

the processes that you nowhere

where citizens don't feel empowered not not

not involved in enough not informed enough

i think this read technology can can

help and a and of course of

you know if if that's chat chat

the and if if that's you know

asians i mean there there's so many

tools coming out read now and then

that that that can help web was

just kind of estrangement of politics and

the citizens as think that's where we

need to go and this is where

we need to take a hard look

off again you know our processes and

and not just tinkering right to think

the that democracy could have tinkering and

and pink in earth and slow

to change and is also of course

of protection mechanism of democracy protect itself

but a think you know went when

there's a disconnect between the speed of

change in in you know in india

in society and and and in in

culture and in technology and then on

the other hand politics you know them

the a that fights of battles to

to catch up and and losers the

momentum i think that this is where

we develop a problem and this is

where we are at the moment so

this was a positive disruption i think

there's lots of positive potential that needs

to be realized and and we need

to work together to to to do

that and fast

and

how to reach these positive the disruption

and i'm very good as the when

you say that we have to be

faster

how much faster

this is yeah that's a good question

how much faster well i think if

you look at many countries and right

now i think we're talking about one

or two electoral cycles which is some

some something between fires and and and

ten years and this is what we're

looking at dried i don't believe that

you know the next election might be

the last one even though you know

and i'm not sure was the united

states thread now but never bet against

the united states so i i hope

that there was that there was still

find a way and

quite critical a also in europe ready

to look at if you look at

germany she look at france and where

the thyroid has been gaining and and

and of course other countries where the

far is already and in in in

the leader in government i i think

it's you know is it's it's five

five two

two to twelve perhaps we still can

change things were still can with the

can impact and dem it padma democracy

and change in a positive wave and

but but we don't have time for

ever read and as a some some

people and organizations i think to act

as if there would be and you

know unless

at a time there is not and

so i'm i'm neither believing that that

we're doomed and nor nor do i

believe that everything will be fine after

all a think that you know narrative

of progress has been broken and and

and so i think we have it

in our hands but within the next

know faster ten years is what what

we're looking at

at in achieving this can have positive

disruption of of democracy and and this

is what i'm i'm i'm trying to

helpless

and the over another couple of question

issue of time and i have i

have five more minutes then i unfortunately

to go perfect the and try to

be very creek and have you seen

the any kind of different approaches to

political tech related the to

i dunno left to right the

in europe because before we were talking

about the different approaches from different countries

so i'm wondering about the

well i i think the and the

the left and has traditionally more looked

at grassroots mobilization grassroots fundraising and and

and so therefore and

the i think overall there would be

more and apps and tools that would

also as align themselves with the the

progressive spectrum of politics and who do

those kinds of things then and for

example on the right now i think

over the last year's

as we cease we've seen some changes

i think we've seen that the that

the ride has taken up some and

some parts are aspects of of the

left including becoming much better ads mobilizing

and organizing a grassroots activists

of voters and influencers and so therefore

it's not that clear cut any more

and and then of course there are

also some provided and vendors who who

do not align themselves with with with

any political spectrum battle just sell their

product and so so there's

for it i mean there i i

i couldn't say that there is nowadays

and a clear distinction i think if

you look at the u s and

i think

there it is the case there that

probably that the the that the left

as more money available for technology out

of the reasons that i and that

a highlighted and but but but that

he dead might might be changing as

well

last question if you have both a

message for all the people that are

working in the political tech field

i think it's an exciting time to

be involved in political take whether you

are in a political organization or you

are you know a vendor and adviser

and a software developer i i think

there's so much happening right now that

can help democracy that can help improve

politics so i think it's

it's a super interesting community we're very

glad to to have gotten to know

some some really exciting people some really

interesting organizations from across europe and beyond

so my message would be in all

let's let's say a get in touch

if if you haven't been in touch

with us and with me already

a you can you can go to

a political tech about you and you

can subscribe and of course you can

attend the political tech summit which will

again happen in berlin and generates when

it's when of six would be great

to see you there because there's so

much to learn and so much to

do and if not now wins

thank you are a lot to live

thank you very much in hundred and

grandson

the