the so welcome on another episode of
democracy innovator innovator spot gusta and our
guest of today is a joseph lynch
sorry
and i mean europe political entrepreneur book
but you have written books and your
thunder and ceo of their political tech
summit
and so as the first thing thank
you for your time excited me
and them
and would like to tell us something
about their political tech summit i mean
because it was the it was last
month yeah so
negative thanks to much so he had
the political take some it was
and a premier it was europe's first
event in that of that kind and
we can protect pepper carrying it for
about a year now
the idea was to to close a
gap and in the in the landscape
in the political landscape us in the
market and a kept of because their
politics is a very fragmented and landscape
still in in europe and politics is
very much sir national
the based and of course it's organized
alongside politik families so there is not
enough learning and particularly within the agreed
that the democratic center from center left
us and the right and so we
thought it will degrade to create the
space where peers can learn from
each other very practically with a future
technology but also where and vendors and
provide us could meet with potential clients
are where people could meet new partners
and i'm very happy to say that
it has been very successful was more
than six hundred people's from more than
forty nations
it's and we have had great feedback
was lots of thirteen and interviewing and
people are really positive about it though
we already announced that there will be
a second edition and in january twenty
six in berlin once again but for
now a think care we we are
i have their very had been delighted
well this has actually worked and and
actually the impact it already has had
with fred from from people that they
already took stuff and and applied it
within their organizations within their political parties
unions associations and and and and that's
great that's that's exactly what what they
want to happen
and m i was thinking about them
i mean the summit is about political
attack and the there is the distinction
between civic decker and gothic if you
call the tellers the something more about
her happy have this tempted to so
and civic tech is about empowering citizens
digitally so for example with transparency apps
about you know parliaments and and and
mended or nurse or stuff like fix
my street to for people
can can ah putting complaints or can
suggest ideas for improving city life also
this would be all and the civic
tech am also saved civic participation so
when it comes to do you know
deliberative formats are or can't i'm consulting
our citizens and they're are also quite
a lot of platforms for that and
it's quite an established field on the
other hand gaffe tech is about digitizing
the public sector so it looks at
the administration's and and and how we
can improve how we can make administration
the government more
efficient with digital means and and in
between between gas to consider take there's
a space where our organizations lag political
parties leaf but also you know unions
associations are some the prophets the businesses
anyone who's involved the political arena who's
doing politics
communication containing electioneering of those organizations of
quiet and distinct and special needs are
there are of course touch points at
intersections with gas take as well as
civic tech absolutely and some organizations could
be a think are called for example
gastric as well as politico
tech and so on but but we
really saw us at the summit that
it's quite a special community that has
not had the chance to get together
so far and the political tech summit
brought this political tech community together for
the first time
yeah i i see the bill from
a civic decker and the gothic or
i mean that sometimes they overlap each
other also because it's a very new
field and the before going back and
talking about political thinker and were
wanted to ask you if you like
to share something about your background personal
background also eventually starting from when you
were a child or
i'm an austrian by birth and lives
in berlin was my family but i
grew up a close to vienna close
the to the hungarian border so to
me and i i remember to very
important moments in my life politically speaking
and one of course was
the the the fall of the berlin
wall and the other one of them
was when the the iron curtain of
came down a close to our home
so we always had to go to
hungary to visit friends and wait for
two three hours at the border and
suddenly the border was gone and and
both of these
things of course happened he close proximity
and around the time where i was
thirteen or so saw in my youth
really and and so they were quiet
of course left a big impression on
me and this is why i think
me and also you know many of
my generation are really quite optimistic about
progress
as and about the future and which
is of course very much challenge shred
now but but not too long later
of course also in a facebook emerged
and back in the day twitter and
and there was the arab spring so
the all this optimism then was projected
onto the technology and
so you know i i was of
among the first to to to use
those things and really loved them because
it helped me stay in touch with
friends and and learn about new things
and of course you know facebook twitter
many other platforms are very much of
the critiqued a retina for for many
things and a
a i still think they they they
have the have value to certain degree
but in any way i think back
back in the day the of the
this techno almost utopianism when i grew
up off you know take outing to
improve the god democracy and and and
helping to fix some problems within the
political
system has now almost turned into the
opposite where people now almost have a
can of dystopian few of technology that
it destroys and undermines democracy i i
of course i'm not a believer in
extremes i think while they are you
know we can make fair arguments for
both of those things
and i think what's interesting to me
is how can we use technology and
what's out there are to improve political
communication management campaigning and because we know
that democracy is under attack also partially
by and through technology
and we know that that politics needs
to change we know why we know
or even what needs to change a
think the hardest be at his house
of what i've always been interested in
and taken the day in two thousand
and twelve i was involved in in
finding a new political party in austria
which now entering government it's called nails
us so my interest was always in
or i saw we ought we have
all those ideas and ideas of course
are cheap and anyone can have ideas
but not everyone can or as is
is willing to to put in the
hours to actually make stuff happen so
i've always tried to help make stuff
happen not always successfully
the but what always what gets me
excited this doing staff creating stuff co-creating
stuff getting others to use the stuff
and then like with political tech summit
finding from their feet thick and their
responses and direction instead is actually useful
in a very practical sense i think
this is what we need much much
more of them i'm glad to say
that there are more and more what
i will call political entrepreneurs around are
doing at establishing new initiatives and they're
still not enough funding but that is
as i also changing there's more interest
from investors ah also philanthropists in helping
to do those kinds of things so
i think we
we see a positive development the only
question release 'em are we fast enough
and and i don't think subsequently to
become faster and bolder and more courageous
because as i sat in the beginning
and democracy is under threat and and
it's the it's a in aware in
the battle against
time i'm afraid
very interesting thoughts about the one about
them
the speed the about the
them and the yeah i have another
question more a related about the europe
professional background or academic background you partially
also talked about it i mean about
your professional background but that if issue
like to say something
so i'm i'm a psychologist by training
and i i did my first masters
at the university of vienna and in
psychology at an and though i'm i'm
very interested in indian individual perspective psychologies
about individual behavior behavior and
of and and in impressions and decisions
and and of course of the last
year's lot of stuff has happened in
combination with neuropsychology really understanding how the
brain works and how people make the
decisions had also
oh how are you know in intellectual
thoughts how ratio and relates to the
emotion and and and that actually emotion
is very much what drives us as
as human beings even though we like
to believe otherwise so so that's a
to this day i'm still taking often
a very
individualistic perspective also of politics read understanding
why individual actors and act as they
do why that takes her decisions are
sometimes of course disastrous decisions and sometimes
for the better whether the motives for
drives them and whether they're looking for
and what role as emotion play so
that that that's one part of of
my scientific and academic and perspective the
other parties that my second masters and
has been in public administration
though i if you will have a
more abstract more systemic a perspective off
and politics of government of of the
state so really swimming out and trying
to understand of those structures and processes
of politics then for
deuce a certain policy and i think
as we have seen over the last
year's really is that the policies often
are not so much to problem as
the politics because the politics is in
many cases of these days the bottleneck
you cannot get stuff
then you cannot get staff decided upon
their lot lot of blockages and then
of course you know it's very hard
even if you can get something done
to communicated which is still of course
part of the politics and the implementation
so this is what i've always been
interested in have been more of politics
nerd if you will
then perhaps a policy nerd am still
interested their much a policy of course
in it's it's essential to politics but
but this is or always the part
and how the people extended which is
again more the second psychological question and
and so i've written a book which
is called political entrepreneurship way
where i looked at at nails the
party i helped coffin and austria but
back then in a two thousand and
nineteen also other new political parties in
slovakia in in in spain and france
and asked you know how have they
managed to be successful i have to
manage to enter parliament what have
they done and who are those people
behind them what has driven them how
have they extend what mr methods has
to use to again very much practical
and pragmatic book on on how you
can actually do something that complex as
founding a new political party and then
get it to aunt
parliament and even perhaps governments and that
that is the combination of many many
things that i am interested in public
administration psychology politics as a whole and
that that's that's what get me what
gets me excited
the the question about why some people
participate in public life and some not
the is something that i asked to
to myself many times and in our
way weights also i am interested the
by ye
do that
this word that is the
the week deck of but also a
gothic and everything related
and the think about what you were
saying
so i think the reason like are
sort of cultural problem because er visits
those were something i want to you
about the
if will stevens and playmakers if they
have enough knowledge about the these political
tech platform movements because that i mean
there are
policymakers then there are citizens and it
seems simple i mean technology of old
very fast and it seems that we
i mean must of the people are
not aware of the potential use of
technology
absolutely i think you're you're spot on
that there is of course and and
awareness read of of technology and and
and in an increasing awareness of that
technology is political and and that it
can at again right now you know
how it can harm the body politics
and and democracy a think in general
people are aware of that read what
they are not aware of are so
what tools to a have available what
what tech stack can i build to
do my chalk which he is you
know campaigning communicating winning elaine
actions and better read that there and
there's a gap and and i just
talked to somebody and from a political
organization yesterday and and the told me
well you know political parties a but
also
i think that that applies as much
to you know to unions associations and
other political organizations they burn an awful
lot of money on useless take read
and and and and that means it
might not be a better tool but
it might not be the right tools
sometimes it may also be that tools
random you know
in political tech there are many many
custom developments because every organization thinks their
unique and they have unique needs and
of course there are big dick platforms
that you can buy off the sheltered
a very expensive and awesome too big
and to to powerful so that's also
a problem but then the conclude
asian that you have to be and
stuff or by yourself because you know
best what you need is not necessarily
have the right one because often those
platforms and tools to get developed for
specific organization get developed once are not
necessarily program to are very well and
then and then the don't get developed
the
cost is costs money
and effort and people don't use it
and then you'll have of these this
leg at the legacy tech landscapes of
of text stakes that are you know
years old out of state and are
not the used because they're clunky saw
saw yes there is a big and
innovation gap in politics of what we
sought the political texts ahmed is that
people once they see what they can
actually what they could have what the
could use and and and how they
could you know potentially stick tools together
and there's a c r m there's
a social media management tool
there's the data analysis tools as mobilization
platform and you can put those together
then you suddenly realize what potential is
is in their right of course it's
not done by just buying it or
subscribing to something and paying for it
of course it needs to be implemented
this next problem right because then
and you talked about culture you need
a certain organizational culture your needs a
structures he needs responsibilities a accountability to
actually then make the organization use that
tool and learn that tool and and
the know it into the that the
muscle so to say and of of
of the organization so that
that's all quite complex it's it's it's
it's it's doable rights it has been
done before and of course as always
some organizations to better than others what
we also trying to do with we're
trying to make case that is available
and speakers available who have achieve something
was done something in the field of
political tech and really
the get people to learn and how
they can actually do something like that
you never can copy paste you know
from one organization to the other but
of course you can learn about success
factors about you know what we're about
fails which is also important so i
think there's an increasing awareness at a
people look for solutions and for tools
and this is what we want to
provide
the i i saw these are fragmentation
in political a thick like where every
organization build their own custom platform or
may be they do
the by the platform from from someone
else and several times they thought that
the may be
do people that are working civic tech
or gothic the can also collaborate on
building a platform that can be like
modular and thought that the
like it can be customized i'm thinking
about deseed him but the test was
saw about other kind of platform so
you don't have to build a platform
from zero every time but you're just
modify something
and i'm curious about the like for
a political party that the wants to
use of some news new technologies
do
what has like how to be successful
for a political party
as identity question of course out to
be successful well i think it's a
it's a it's of course it's it's
it's not just one factor right it's
about
realizing first of all what is out
there right we we have two hundred
fifty or more organizations already on our
radar in europe and beyond who provides
different tools and platforms and apps for
for political organizations right and i would
patch that most political parties and other
organizations can probably name two or three
you know i sought so there is
this big untapped potential of tools and
i saying and all that that you
don't have perhaps you have the best
tools and then the congratulations a chances
are you don't and then
you know what are the alternatives but
starts with realizing of course one's needs
and and conversations with potential partners can
help because people often don't realize what
the coderre for until the see what
they can if so to this is
where it all starts and then as
i said it's
really about the the the implementation it's
about and not just buying the tool
but but but getting the organization to
use the tool to to and ever
been to understand why does make sense
and to show them how this helps
drive a continuous improvement across the organization
says really a i a
and in complex and challenging process but
once you get up get you know
a lot of people adept sorry adopt
particular tool in your organization than the
magic happens because suddenly you get data
read suddenly get data that he can
learn from from from conversations with citizens
raw mobilizing of volunteers
from social media and then you can
make better data-driven decisions and and and
of course then this becomes ideally a
virtuous circle where you can show and
demonstrate to people that their work has
helped you to
make better decisions which has helped them
to be more efficient and about their
chalk and more effective which helps everyone
to be better winning elections communicating and
campaigning i think that's that's where the
magic liars of course this doesn't happen
overnight right this is hard work
work this also needs people to own
this and drive this we know from
talking to so many political organizations and
parties unions associations that most of them
don't have
as head of take for example redd
somebody who owns the technology within the
organization and if the have someone it's
often a person that is not necessarily
on the on the executive level but
often more an operative person right well
this is not ideal
you'll need someone to to really one
the portfolio what we see many organizations
instead and
there's a fragmentation was in the organization
of tools so this you know department
uses this tool the other the uses
not at all those don't talk to
each other so you create different data
pools and then of course you loose
and the the big picture you lose
to three hundred sixty a few of
you know your your your voltage
years your activists wherever it might be
that you're looking at and that's a
big big problem because then you can
learn what you could learn from from
from those from the information that you
can create so those are some factors
and leads you know it or not
necessarily rocket science or
our new buds it still is hard
to get them get them right and
if you get them right a think
political take can really make a difference
and them
i'm thinking that the right now there
is a sort of transition like from
them physical word to the digital one
was related to governance and participation and
them
i know that is not possible to
i to know when and if or
and a complete the transition will happen
a laker
yeah everything is changing so fast the
two years ago we didn't have voted
to pity and the or other kind
of from llm
and the though i'm wondering if you
i mean i know it's impossible to
say when and the for this will
happen but if you think a few
think that i dunno in ten years
sir or twenty years the like a
there will be
a transition toward technology because i mean
nowadays and i mean politicians policymaker they
have their
publica such an account i mean where
the right thing sir citizens can reply
or may i'm thinking that the some
a political party can ever private whatsapp
group or something else
but this is quite the informal in
a way
and am thinking
ifa we can estimate the when night
we left and
the yeah and as i think there's
of course huge potential in in technology
in making it you schools for democracy
for for pro democratic politics there's no
question about the drive then again at
the moment we see i am afraid
more that deleterious effects but that doesn't
mean
make it a a you know less
so that that there's a lot of
positive potential and really i really believe
in that so when when will we
get there well i mean we we
are a think
in we're making progress in the sense
of that you know they're there for
example technologies that that help assist and
facilitate the liberty processes and and and
and then there's also of course now
if you think about be key and
others are the
tools and discuss listening and summarizing of
conversations and and i think there's so
much in this but but you know
to your question i am not sure
that we will you know leave and
and that we should leave the fish
ethical space because i think politics will
and should always be to certain degree
physical so what i believe in is
rather let's say digitally assisted democracy read
and of course we can also talk
about stuff like and e-voting right and
and and other things that that that
mouse lower the
the hurdle for participation that allow for
in participation in the political process independent
off location of time i think those
are great things but i think they're
still and necessity in politics for people
to get together in-person sit down and
and talk i would i would even
argue that that this hasn't happened
as much perhaps as it as it
could and should have that people are
more and you're not engaging in the
digital the sphere that this has helped
or has accelerated a sudden estrangement from
the of you know from for citizen
from each other but also from from
the play
critical a classes so there there is
this kind of undermining of of of
cohesion politically speaking that i'm worried about
so i absolutely believe that their digital
tools that political tech and can help
us a compliment that and and and
and and imp
proof that experience and you know why
why should a human take notes if
if if if a if a talk
can do it and if they can
help us facilitate and organise a add
a discussion better perhaps or or just
as good as a as a person
can very good right but it's still
a seat needs persons
to sit together and talk and exchange
fuse and debate i think that is
at the core of of democracy and
and saw think that depth will still
be necessary but it can be done
much more smartly and then it has
been done in the past
absolutely
and is the point i would like
to touch her later and
i'm thinking about all the different approaches
in the inside the the european union
if you have seen some differences between
the yeah the understanding of political deck
and implementation of it in different countries
yeah i think if you look at
france for
well i mean my car has has
tried
a lot of things are particularly the
beginning in a row the about it
in my book and the the you
know they used apps early on for
canvassing and basically the took a lot
of insights and and learnings of course
from the obama campaign some of the
people that were involved hell
thing mccraw well so involved with the
obama campaign so there has been a
convert cross pollination a transatlantic wise and
am i think mccraw was a big
believer and probably still a big believer
in technology and its potential read so
i think in that sense of france
has been at the forefront
i'm not sure that mccall has really
and you know kept pushing this and
as hard as he could ask but
of course he recently also had the
ai action summit and in in paris
that was organized by make dot org
that that also showed on the you
know very impressively what what you can
do with with politics and of course
political take was also part of fed
i know that the commission and the
european commission is also trying out things
and helping assisting deliberation did that limit
of processes with digital tools and i
think if you if you look at
and germany and i would say there
is potential to to improve and to
and to catch up and the uk
you know a labor of
the last year in the in the
campaign has tried out stuff so there
is stuff happening reds it's not that
and that there's nothing going on and
also germany there are start ups and
tools and that have been in tried
out in the
the recent election campaign rights and where
you can wear you use the i
to assist in informing citizens and helping
then inform themselves about the the programs
manifested of the parties great staff right
that i think took the the the
question is always in europe is about
scale
link so once you have reached that
level and and you have found your
in a certain certain client base in
perhaps even that pays you i think
the question is how to go to
the next stage and this is where
we get to the question of of
funding in europe there is no expert
or for political tech now in the
aftermath of the political tech summit and
there have been ideas and to to
push something like that to establish a
kind of an investment fund and of
course if this happens and this would
be with degrades because this will then
via a prototype
type that could be hopefully replicated and
groans and that that would be fantastic
because money's is is of course of
the essence you need to pay people
to do stuff you can only get
so much from from the people volunteering
their time and i'm also not sure
that that you should and could do
everything from either in a tropical
or or oregon of public money i
think they have a role to play
but then again and you know those
tools also need to find clients to
be sustainable so i think the potential
is huge a think the market is
not there yet and again what we're
trying to do with political tech summit
and
and and the you know and and
other things that we do and in
in this field are trying to organize
this community also digitally i was new
platform that will be launching soon and
i think this is really about
getting people together a good chance sharing
ideas and then you know really kind
of getting down to business and getting
stuff done
i'm thinking about come
yet what you were saying before i
mean debating there should be likened the
corner of democracy and the i'm thinking
about the importance of nata not though
once before the digital era was very
important but nowadays the it is absolutely
very important because the i mean it
cannot lose policymakers to know which kind
of things citizen who like to see
happen but also now though is useful
to train a i
systems
and i'm thinking about the if you
think it will be possible in the
future for people that the participate in
the public life with some mass civic
decker software
like to to compensate them because they
see this convergence between the like a
i participate in the public life so
i use my time my free time
and also i'm producing data
that is most useful for technology and
the public life
yeah and i know when when when
i grew up and i think the
still as is true for for many
platforms are there was a saying if
you don't pay for the product you
are the product threat though this was
of course about selling your data and
and of course we know many negative
examples
all that and
of course nowadays it's also about not
not selling but also training models on
on on your data read and and
and as you said if there is
a value in this if you add
value by adding your data and you
should basically the only your your data
and then of course the question is
you know what's
the model and in in in in
monetizing that so i think absolutely this
is a you know and an interesting
discussion and and and of course it's
also about you know democracy who owns
your data and but but but in
the end it's also to some degree
of about business read i mean if
if again if you create value you
should be able to to cake to
to capture some of the value i
eat yourself in in some way so
and yeah i think the discussion is
ongoing i think it's a very interesting
one of the data protection has had
undergone significant change i mean when when
i grew up
twenty five thirty years ago and keep
of didn't really care much about and
data protection and and and this has
of course changed dramatically these days a
sikh these days we we need to
seek heart whether we haven't already
related to sometimes where data protection and
certainly in some countries so i think
we should look at that i think
we should experiment percent and i think
it could to the beneath could be
to the benefit of everyone if refined
their creative models and solutions that benefit
the the data providers which are in
in in that case that you mentioned
also of course the citizens
but the i'm wondering if the red
now teresa summer i dunno institution political
party or some town that there is
trying to use the our civic that
platform and at the same time compensating
people that participate
i don't know to be honest i
i would know of an example
do you
nah actually know but the a yeah
i was wondering if from
some one was exploring in this direction
because the
yeah i see that every one of
as is very busy like studying working
and everything and so something we forgot
about public life that is quite important
and the and so i thought okay
that could be a way to motivate
people to participate more and is is
also related to the question why some
people parties
separating public life and some not
yeah i mean i mean what i
know of and are are are some
part is use and
platforms that incentivize you and through credits
and so it's not the same as
money but but some part is used
platforms that you know went when you
volunteer for an hour or for set
amount of hours and when you show
up when you
help us something then you get credits
an honor on an app on a
platform and you could use those credits
for different things and so that's you
know a a step in that direction
if you will you help you you
know you're actively participate to contribute and
then you get something out of it
and so
so i i i think does i
again interesting experiments and of course there
also arguments against that because some say
you know it it should be an
internal motivation and if you engage yourself
in in politics and the shouldn't be
so much externally incentivized i don't
there's a right or wrong and but
i think it it can be apart
and of course gamification which which that
is and is something absolutely that that
we should experiment with and and and
trout because of course people are less
engaged and then compared what but the
i used to be and and so
i think those kinds of approaches can
help us with turning things around
yet he has feel the same and
the i was wondering because of the
before you were saying that the some
parties are using some kind of technologies
for the error
and that if do you think that
we will see some new kind of
political party specializing
technology that really wants to the to
push these
to to use a lot of technology
or do your thing that all parties
will adopt so formidable yeah
are we already had the pirate parties
and thirty years ago so went when
i got started in in in politics
now that the there there was crossing
iceland another still the the pirate party
in in in the czech republic which
is quite successful and know
in germany there was a pirate party
and so and they have been very
innovative technology or of course you could
argue they've been saw innovative
and that that they couldn't handle in
a concepts like liquid democracy which are
quite complex but perhaps you know you
could argue have some of them are
some of the ideas were just a
bit too early when when you know
a i wasn't around and nowadays those
things could be helped with by i
said
to your question yes i think we'll
we'll see more tech driven parties of
course that's also a risk and mean
the extreme case of course is now
musk driving the republican party which is
of course a very negative case
our of tank overtaking a politics and
bot and yes i think looking at
the potential of of of taken the
potential of data and and the potential
of learning from the data and there's
lots of stuff happening and and as
always there are some parties who are
more open and
more innovative you know the innovation leaders
and then there's some early adopters and
then there there's a legates and but
absolutely will will see a step change
in the coming years because people and
and organizations will realize what the can
actually do with those tools are using
that kind of data
and of course using i so i
think we're only really we only have
scratched the surface so far and and
and you know if you look at
the us election if you look at
the general election and and i think
what you see is that they haven't
been the you know a i elections
that people expected them to be but
but i've heard people say you know
these would be the last elections where
we talk about the i because at
the next cycle in two three four
years everybody will expect there had to
be used to nobody will be talking
about it anymore so there's you know
a there is a revolution head it's
just not yet not there yet
and it won't be as as as
loud and and and and you know
i am a bumi as as and
as it is now in the in
the u s and hopefully it will
be of much more positive and much
more productive and and and less destructive
i think there is a fair chance
and this is again why they do
the political tech summit to make sure
that that
tech is being used or four pro
democratic purposes
i'm thinking about them
yet
the the pirate party and the the
liquid democracy and the i think that
threaten out there could be like to
two ways to kind of approaches one
is modernizing actual democratic processes using automation
the i e and other key
and of technologies
or or to experiment with new kind
of governance system as it could be
and liquid democracy or some kind of
direct democracy and the
yet do you i dunno what are
your thought about and maybe both should
be done so yet
i think i think that's the answer
right i don't i don't think we
should the one of the other i
don't think that it's it's realistic and
and and and desirable and to switch
you know and to liquid democracy or
some other concept overnight read i think
democracy has been there for some time
now it
has its flaws it needs to be
improved but the you know throwing the
kid i was the bath water i
don't think is advisable to yes and
we have to assist and democratic processes
with technology i think that's clear i
think absolutely we should challenge some some
processes
because if you digitize process that is
dysfunctional you get a dysfunctional digital process
and not you know of a functional
one so that's always the problem righteous
because it digitize it doesn't make it
necessarily better so yes of course we
have to take a step back and
and and and take a good look
at at at
the democratic processes isn't whether they are
still still up ah the for purpose
in the in the twenty first century
and then ah yes i think we
should also experiment thought we should experiment
it within defined limits and with defined
areas in a regular tourist sand boxes
are a great idea
dear to allow for some stuff to
loosen rules to try out some things
and to experiments but but not you
know with i dunno a country of
of eight a million or whatever it
might be and from from one monster
the next read i think that's that's
a risk that we shouldn't be be
taking and saw
yeah of course it's exciting and then
and then of course if it works
it works and some of the stuff
will work and then we should look
at how we could scale it and
not over ten or twenty years but
but but but quite fast read because
we again it's a battle against time
that were in so we need to
move as swifter
the
and talking about the risks and the
yeah the battle against time and is
is there anything that worry you about
the use of technologies or other kind
of things related to politics yeah the
i think you know i i
i like to think about this in
in in in positive versus negative disruption
and i think what we're seeing in
the in the u s and is
a quite clearly negative disruption at the
moment the way and mosque and others
go about the government and how the
disrupt processes and i have you know
impact in terms of
thousands of people and and the impact
of course or labour will become clear
in the coming months and years ahead
i think you know that's not that's
not desirable ah but but i think
what what what we do need is
a is a is it can have
positive disruption and off of some of
the processes that you nowhere
where citizens don't feel empowered not not
not involved in enough not informed enough
i think this read technology can can
help and a and of course of
you know if if that's chat chat
the and if if that's you know
asians i mean there there's so many
tools coming out read now and then
that that that can help web was
just kind of estrangement of politics and
the citizens as think that's where we
need to go and this is where
we need to take a hard look
off again you know our processes and
and not just tinkering right to think
the that democracy could have tinkering and
and pink in earth and slow
to change and is also of course
of protection mechanism of democracy protect itself
but a think you know went when
there's a disconnect between the speed of
change in in you know in india
in society and and and in in
culture and in technology and then on
the other hand politics you know them
the a that fights of battles to
to catch up and and losers the
momentum i think that this is where
we develop a problem and this is
where we are at the moment so
this was a positive disruption i think
there's lots of positive potential that needs
to be realized and and we need
to work together to to to do
that and fast
and
how to reach these positive the disruption
and i'm very good as the when
you say that we have to be
faster
how much faster
this is yeah that's a good question
how much faster well i think if
you look at many countries and right
now i think we're talking about one
or two electoral cycles which is some
some something between fires and and and
ten years and this is what we're
looking at dried i don't believe that
you know the next election might be
the last one even though you know
and i'm not sure was the united
states thread now but never bet against
the united states so i i hope
that there was that there was still
find a way and
quite critical a also in europe ready
to look at if you look at
germany she look at france and where
the thyroid has been gaining and and
and of course other countries where the
far is already and in in in
the leader in government i i think
it's you know is it's it's five
five two
two to twelve perhaps we still can
change things were still can with the
can impact and dem it padma democracy
and change in a positive wave and
but but we don't have time for
ever read and as a some some
people and organizations i think to act
as if there would be and you
know unless
at a time there is not and
so i'm i'm neither believing that that
we're doomed and nor nor do i
believe that everything will be fine after
all a think that you know narrative
of progress has been broken and and
and so i think we have it
in our hands but within the next
know faster ten years is what what
we're looking at
at in achieving this can have positive
disruption of of democracy and and this
is what i'm i'm i'm trying to
helpless
and the over another couple of question
issue of time and i have i
have five more minutes then i unfortunately
to go perfect the and try to
be very creek and have you seen
the any kind of different approaches to
political tech related the to
i dunno left to right the
in europe because before we were talking
about the different approaches from different countries
so i'm wondering about the
well i i think the and the
the left and has traditionally more looked
at grassroots mobilization grassroots fundraising and and
and so therefore and
the i think overall there would be
more and apps and tools that would
also as align themselves with the the
progressive spectrum of politics and who do
those kinds of things then and for
example on the right now i think
over the last year's
as we cease we've seen some changes
i think we've seen that the that
the ride has taken up some and
some parts are aspects of of the
left including becoming much better ads mobilizing
and organizing a grassroots activists
of voters and influencers and so therefore
it's not that clear cut any more
and and then of course there are
also some provided and vendors who who
do not align themselves with with with
any political spectrum battle just sell their
product and so so there's
for it i mean there i i
i couldn't say that there is nowadays
and a clear distinction i think if
you look at the u s and
i think
there it is the case there that
probably that the the that the left
as more money available for technology out
of the reasons that i and that
a highlighted and but but but that
he dead might might be changing as
well
last question if you have both a
message for all the people that are
working in the political tech field
i think it's an exciting time to
be involved in political take whether you
are in a political organization or you
are you know a vendor and adviser
and a software developer i i think
there's so much happening right now that
can help democracy that can help improve
politics so i think it's
it's a super interesting community we're very
glad to to have gotten to know
some some really exciting people some really
interesting organizations from across europe and beyond
so my message would be in all
let's let's say a get in touch
if if you haven't been in touch
with us and with me already
a you can you can go to
a political tech about you and you
can subscribe and of course you can
attend the political tech summit which will
again happen in berlin and generates when
it's when of six would be great
to see you there because there's so
much to learn and so much to
do and if not now wins
thank you are a lot to live
thank you very much in hundred and
grandson
the