Isabella Roberts on embodied democracy, music festival research & shared identity via deliberation

Alessandro Oppo: Welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator podcast, and our guest of today is Isabella Roberts.

Alessandro Oppo: So thank you, Isabella, for joining us.

Isabella Roberts: Thanks, Sandra.

Alessandro Oppo: And,

Alessandro Oppo: I mean, the first question is

Alessandro Oppo: if you can tell us something about you

Alessandro Oppo: and so personal background or also academic.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Sure. I'll

Isabella Roberts: try and keep it brief. Otherwise, we could be here forever. I think what's relevant for this conversation

Isabella Roberts: is, yeah, I came from a different background actually.

Isabella Roberts: I came into the democracy space

Isabella Roberts: with sort of full steam ahead, I would say, because I actually switched from a professional career in

Isabella Roberts: finance, investments,

Isabella Roberts: auditing, fundraising

Isabella Roberts: straight into

Isabella Roberts: a

Isabella Roberts: election

Isabella Roberts: campaign in 2021.

Isabella Roberts: So I left I left the sort of banking and finance industry

Isabella Roberts: and at the time of COVID and Boris Johnson because I was just so fed up with what the prime minister at

the time was doing to our country, our democracy,

Isabella Roberts: and I decided to take a stand, and that was that looked like running for the London Assembly elections in

Isabella Roberts: May 2021. Then And after that experience, decided to retrain, reeducate myself

Isabella Roberts: and just, yeah, embark on this journey of inquiry as to like, you know, what does democracy actually mean? Separating democracy from

politics,

Isabella Roberts: Even though I got involved in this election campaign that's very political about parties and people trying to win over each other,

win votes,

Isabella Roberts: through my masters

Isabella Roberts: in digital politics and sustainable development, I actually focused my thesis on how can collective intelligence

Isabella Roberts: enhance democracy.

Isabella Roberts: So yeah, looking at actually other forms of democracy that's more deliberative, more collective,

Isabella Roberts: more direct,

Isabella Roberts: and

Isabella Roberts: that's led me to where I am now. So I've just started a PhD at Southampton University this year

Isabella Roberts: and focusing on exactly like deliberative democracy, but also how AI and immersive tech can enhance that,

Isabella Roberts: and also replicate the feelings of engaging with deliberative democracy

Isabella Roberts: between in person and online virtual formats.

Isabella Roberts: So yeah, that's that's where I've come from, so not fully

Isabella Roberts: academic background,

Isabella Roberts: but I find myself pretty much in the academic world right now. I've also worked on a couple of

Isabella Roberts: deliberative processes with

Isabella Roberts: the Birmingham Museums Trust and the National Gallery in The UK, so it just happens to be arts and culture sector, but

I think it's important to note as well that even though I'm in the academic space,

Isabella Roberts: I have actually physically been in the room of these Citizens Assembly, Citizens Juries, so I actually do know what it feels

like. So when I'm writing about and researching about it, like, I actually have this firsthand experience as well.

Alessandro Oppo: Wonderful. And

Alessandro Oppo: you also...

Alessandro Oppo: You just...

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. I mean, I know that you're working on a project,

Alessandro Oppo: let's call the BoomTown

Alessandro Oppo: Festival project.

Alessandro Oppo: And if you'd like to tell us something about it,

Alessandro Oppo: I know that it's still ongoing,

Alessandro Oppo: the research. So.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. So I'm really excited to share this with you hot off the press. But, yeah, this summer I went to BoomTown

Festival, which is this huge music immersive festival in The UK.

Isabella Roberts: It's almost like The UK version of Tomorrowland, I would say. Maybe it's a Stephanie Rogers festival

Isabella Roberts: after Glastonbury,

Isabella Roberts: but

Isabella Roberts: it's interesting because I personally have had my own journey with BoomTown. It's my fifth year going this year, but then it

just so happened that the first year that BoomTown Festival is hosting this academic research tent called the Observatory, so it's

a specific venue within the festival that is focused on a range of,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, academics doing different focusing on different research projects from, you know, like movement is medicine,

Isabella Roberts: the brain

Isabella Roberts: signals when someone's doing yoga or meditation,

Isabella Roberts: and then to mine,

Isabella Roberts: my workshop was called

Isabella Roberts: Dancing Our Way into a New Democracy.

Isabella Roberts: I ran two sessions

Isabella Roberts: on the Thursday and a semester day and basically set up a mini citizens' assembly format, one hour each,

Isabella Roberts: each of those days, replicated the exact same design,

Isabella Roberts: and wanted to measure through

Isabella Roberts: people's feedback in surveys, but also measure through directly

Isabella Roberts: and objectively

Isabella Roberts: through these biosensory equipment that look like mood rings that you have on your finger,

Isabella Roberts: that can also sense the physiological

Isabella Roberts: physiological responses of participants,

Isabella Roberts: meaning you know their heart rate, heart rate variability,

Isabella Roberts: galvanic skin responses,

Isabella Roberts: temperature,

Isabella Roberts: all these things that our body is actually signaling or telling us about how we're feeling in that moment. So then I've

also got this data that tracks in real time, like how the body is responding

Isabella Roberts: to that mini citizens assembly event.

Isabella Roberts: So yeah, really, really interesting, and it's just really cool that,

Isabella Roberts: you know, Boomtown Festival has its own reputation. I don't if any listeners here will be familiar with it, But yeah, it

is maybe known as this. Yeah, big drum and bass, like lots of it's its own world, you know, every year of

the festival, there's a storyline that progresses.

Isabella Roberts: And it's just so crazy

Isabella Roberts: that this year, it was the first year that they do an academic research tent, which is also the same year that

I'm doing my PhD.

Isabella Roberts: And also the storyline of BoomTown this year had a little mini citizens assembly and they called it the network assembly. So

there's immersive actors and performers in the festival that actually like all jump up almost like a flash dance and had this,

like, sort of mini assembly on the weekend too. So it's just really,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, one of those synchronous moments when all these themes

Isabella Roberts: kind of come together at the same time

Isabella Roberts: from different areas or angles. And,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, it's great to be working on it this year. So, yeah, glad to share with you how how that workshop went.

Isabella Roberts: And, I can also speak to some of the the findings or results if you'd like to hear that high level now.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. It's super interesting because

Alessandro Oppo: I'm thinking that citizen assembly often they are done in, let's say, more institutional places or maybe inside the academy.

Alessandro Oppo: And I can imagine that the festival there are,

Alessandro Oppo: let's say, other vibes.

Alessandro Oppo: So maybe more like good vibes. And so,

Alessandro Oppo: I will be interested in knowing more about

Alessandro Oppo: your findings.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Good.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Very good point.

Isabella Roberts: Very good point. And also, I guess that is essentially like very much a limitation that I'll write into the report findings

as well, because exactly as you say,

Isabella Roberts: there is already good vibes in the room. So, you know, if I come up with these results saying, okay, yeah, everyone

had a great time, felt really energized, buoyant, smiling, well actually if they're already in this stressful environment that you

know is generally positive,

Isabella Roberts: you know, to what extent was the deliberative

Isabella Roberts: event contributing

Isabella Roberts: to that?

Isabella Roberts: And at the end of the day, vibes is also, you know, short for vibration, so and actually from an academic

Isabella Roberts: perspective,

Isabella Roberts: there's this concept called resonance by Harmet Rosa. Resonance is essentially describing this kind of vibration or this resonant feeling

that you can have between

Isabella Roberts: participants when you sort of react and respond to each other, so that is one of these concepts that I'm really like

bringing forward and looking to empirically test now.

Isabella Roberts: But yeah, in terms of headline findings, I think one of

Isabella Roberts: key results that's come out so far that's emerging from the survey data, and overall I've got about 75

Isabella Roberts: participants and about 35

Isabella Roberts: all the way through to a month post the festival, so I also sent a survey round to everyone one month after

the festival to see any lasting impacts, but in terms of the 75 people that got involved with the actual session over

both days,

Isabella Roberts: one of the key findings was that they have a significant increase in shared identity.

Isabella Roberts: So yes, sure, there was lots of sensations

Isabella Roberts: of like feeling refreshed, buoyant, happy, smiling,

Isabella Roberts: which links to this concept called kamma mouta and sort of intensity of bodily sensations,

Isabella Roberts: they also had to answer this question about shared identity by taking

Isabella Roberts: one diagram out of these options of like two circles progressively overlapping,

Isabella Roberts: so the first option, there's like sort of two circles quite far apart, and then the last option of like, you know,

just complete merging of identity of oneself with the rest of the group is a sense of belonging essentially

Isabella Roberts: is one circle within a bigger circle.

Isabella Roberts: And

Isabella Roberts: yeah, majority of participants

Isabella Roberts: had a significant increase

Isabella Roberts: from start of the session to the end of the session. So within one hour

Isabella Roberts: of and it was also technically a bit less than an hour because the hour included filling out these surveys pre and

post and consent forms, etc. Etc.

Isabella Roberts: Being in that room, deliberating,

Isabella Roberts: there was also some movement exercises.

Isabella Roberts: This group of essentially strangers, a handful did come with friends, but essentially strangers had a real significant increase in

a shared identity with other participants within less than an hour.

Isabella Roberts: That is really important in terms of,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, bridging divides and trying to bring people together in a polarized society.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. I I was wondering, like, this kind of experiment is,

Alessandro Oppo: I would say,

Alessandro Oppo: it's a sort of... I I think I haven't read about similar experiments.

Alessandro Oppo: So I was wondering if, you know, if there are,

Alessandro Oppo: let's say, other experiments,

Alessandro Oppo: maybe in places,

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, let's say institutional places or academic places where they do citizen assembly measuring

Alessandro Oppo: biosensory

Alessandro Oppo: data.

Alessandro Oppo: It would be interesting to know, like, a sort of comparison between what

Alessandro Oppo: happened when there are

Alessandro Oppo: a certain kind of vibes.

Alessandro Oppo: So we said that the the vibes changes a lot in comparison to the places.

Alessandro Oppo: So I was wondering if you are aware of other similar experiments,

Alessandro Oppo: let's say.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. No. Good question. There are some experiments

Isabella Roberts: in a festival setting that just looks at sort of shared identity and collective participation in a festival setting, but then separate

to deliberative democracy.

Isabella Roberts: In terms of the deliberative events that, you know, I've been a part of and the other reports from other citizens assemblies

in sort of UK and Europe,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, definitely not hooking up to any biosensory

Isabella Roberts: equipment, so they're not tracking bodily responses at all, but they do do participant surveys for sure,

Isabella Roberts: mostly

Isabella Roberts: asking questions about, yeah, enjoyment of the process, and that's usually quite high. So I think we already know that people enjoy

the process,

Isabella Roberts: but the more sort of specific questions around,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, like belonging,

Isabella Roberts: shared identity,

Isabella Roberts: lasting impact, so actually they ask at the end of the process, but not many

Isabella Roberts: of the organizations will follow-up one month later to ask like, how are you still feeling? It's kind of like, you know,

job done, write up the report, now let's bring the outputs and recommendations

Isabella Roberts: to the next level, and don't really tend to follow-up with participants

Isabella Roberts: a month or some time later to ask how they feel, and I think that's important especially for,

Isabella Roberts: you know, the ripple effects if we want this deliberative

Isabella Roberts: movement to sort of grow and spread.

Isabella Roberts: And then in terms of the biosensory data in general, there was actually one recent

Isabella Roberts: study that looked at the physiological sensations and viewing artwork actually.

Isabella Roberts: So similar equipment has been used to sense like, okay, how do people feel when they're like viewing

Isabella Roberts: original pieces of artwork versus copies, and then that has impacts on, yeah, like the nervous system and sense of calm, relaxation,

etc. So yeah, I'm really drawing from

Isabella Roberts: various fields and

Isabella Roberts: studies and applications to bring this project together,

Isabella Roberts: and I do think it's yes, it's definitely something new in the

Isabella Roberts: deliberative space.

Isabella Roberts: I think the next phase though, when I want to look at comparing these sensations to deliberating in a VR or online

environment,

Isabella Roberts: there has been a couple of studies

Isabella Roberts: of deliberative democracy or deliberations in VR.

Isabella Roberts: But again,

Isabella Roberts: not really looking at how people feel about it. They've just run some deliberations in VR, but not necessarily focusing on the

participants feelings

Isabella Roberts: and sensations about

Isabella Roberts: the actual participation itself.

Alessandro Oppo: And I was thinking also about the difficult in

Alessandro Oppo: analyzing

Alessandro Oppo: the results because sometimes

Alessandro Oppo: maybe you can produce a report, let's say,

Alessandro Oppo: five minutes after the citizen assembly, you know, with AI and these kind of things.

Alessandro Oppo: But then to really look at the outcomes, because as an example, it could be that some people become friends and after

five years, maybe they organize as a political movement,

Alessandro Oppo: but all of this is out of the view of the researcher.

Alessandro Oppo: And so I was wondering

Alessandro Oppo: what could be the next steps

Alessandro Oppo: of...

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. In how to find the...

Alessandro Oppo: How all the process worked

Alessandro Oppo: and

Alessandro Oppo: how

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, because you mentioned that these are some preliminary findings. So if you have in mind how

Alessandro Oppo: to continue the research.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. So, I mean, in my project or in my study so far, it has already

shown that

Isabella Roberts: the feelings in the body are and the intensity of the bodily sensations is more

Isabella Roberts: of a greater indicator and tied to the lasting impact that the process had on people.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah, based on the questions they asked, the results, and who responded a month later, and how they responded, and

Isabella Roberts: you know that really just speaks to that saying. Think it was Renee Brown who said, you know, people always forget

Isabella Roberts: what you say, but they'll never forget how you made them feel.

Isabella Roberts: So that just shows that actually you might not remember exactly like facts, figures and names, but you just remember a feeling

that you had when you were in that room or when you were talking with someone, right? The feeling or the vibes

that someone gave you. So that's really what my research is really trying to

Isabella Roberts: like measure and make real empirically and

Isabella Roberts: yeah, something that we like to call, like, something called that the magic in the room

Isabella Roberts: of deliberative processes

Isabella Roberts: and making that corporeal. I think it's a really word I've just learned recently,

Isabella Roberts: making something that's pretty abstract and intangible into something like real and measurable essentially.

Isabella Roberts: But in terms of, you know, you touched on something there around,

Isabella Roberts: you know, lasting relationships and friendships of participants and like kind of tracking that, you know, post the event, and I think

that is actually something

Isabella Roberts: really, really valuable

Isabella Roberts: and actually less.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah, less done in this space. And it but it's so valuable because exactly it's memorable. It's also it's all around storytelling.

And I think as humans,

Isabella Roberts: we remember

Isabella Roberts: and pass on knowledge and memory

Isabella Roberts: and inspiration through stories, right? Like intergenerational,

Isabella Roberts: we've been doing that for generations.

Isabella Roberts: So

Isabella Roberts: and that's why the most famous one of the most famous stories of Fidelis' assemblies comes from that Irish assembly in the

case of, is it Chris and Finbar, when it was a, you know, deeply homophobic

Isabella Roberts: man,

Isabella Roberts: actually changed his

Isabella Roberts: view and his mind and opened his mind up to actually

Isabella Roberts: agreeing with and accepting same sex marriage

Isabella Roberts: when he heard the story of a gay man in that assembly directly face to face, know, heard of you know his

struggles

Isabella Roberts: throughout life and that

Isabella Roberts: face to face empathy and storytelling

Isabella Roberts: yeah, made made him change his mind about some really deeply held views,

Isabella Roberts: and they did become friends. But that story

Isabella Roberts: came out in a sort of journalistic article in some, you know, maybe some more local newspaper.

Isabella Roberts: That's not necessarily something that's captured usually in the official or formal, like, Citizens Assembly reports. And I believe

it really should. And actually, yeah, like, you know, during

Isabella Roberts: each of these events

Isabella Roberts: and even in the pre design and preparations, we should we should be really ready to capture these stories because this is

what people remember and people can share

Isabella Roberts: to again spread the message of citizens assemblies and why they're such a good thing and why they're one of the key

instruments and models for bringing disparate groups of people together and yet again bridging divide in society.

Isabella Roberts: And I think one key reason why

Isabella Roberts: it hasn't happened so far, to be honest, on a practical level, is it's pretty much to do with budget, you know,

like

Isabella Roberts: delivery organizations are commissioned

Isabella Roberts: to deliver this event, write a report at the end of it.

Isabella Roberts: And so if we pre

Isabella Roberts: design in the budget and include in the budget at the beginning, okay, like that we want to have this follow-up post

comms

Isabella Roberts: sort of community building and sharing of the message of what came out of the Citizens Assembly,

Isabella Roberts: that would make us much better prepared and make sure that we don't just let the event and all the amazing things

and transformations that happened in it to just fizzle out. Yeah. I also really like citizen assembly as a as a tool

because compared

Alessandro Oppo: to the different civic tech tools, I mean, every tool

Alessandro Oppo: and every practice has,

Alessandro Oppo: let's say, its own reason to exist.

Alessandro Oppo: But I really appreciate when people can talk to each other, let's say, in real life. And then technology,

Alessandro Oppo: it's a sort of assistant

Alessandro Oppo: and not really the entity we have to deal with.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: I I was wondering, like, because of your experiment with citizen assemblies,

Alessandro Oppo: if you...

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know. On one side, if you have any criticism

Alessandro Oppo: about how the...

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know if you think that maybe something different should be done as an example. I don't know. Running citizen assembly

in places with good vibes. So it could be like a park instead of,

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, a room inside the municipality office

Alessandro Oppo: or something else, like if you have any thoughts about this.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Love that. And I'm sorry if if there's any change of

Isabella Roberts: location and sound in the background because I'm just getting bitten to death by my cusky puppy

Isabella Roberts: and hoping he doesn't continue.

Isabella Roberts: But that's a really good that's a really good point, really good idea. And actually,

Isabella Roberts: where physically

Isabella Roberts: hosting something like a sitting Sunday in a park or a festival is

Isabella Roberts: okay, is

Isabella Roberts: less practical

Isabella Roberts: in person. That is something I would love to recreate in

Isabella Roberts: the VR phase of the next part of my study. And yeah, anyone watching on the video can see my husky pup

bear make a little cameo.

Isabella Roberts: So I yeah, I think I think the environment and the space, as you say, as you already intuitively picked up on,

is super important for the sort of, yeah, this magic in the room, the gelling and the connection

Isabella Roberts: and just those feel good vibes of like the participants actually coming together.

Isabella Roberts: You know, I've definitely been in some rooms or venues or forums where, you know, it's maybe

Isabella Roberts: it's quite clinical, it's quite grey, it's not it's the opposite of warm, you know, and also the acoustics really matter, like

people struggling to hear what speakers are saying in the back of the room, things are echoing,

Isabella Roberts: and all these things to do with physical space. Again, yeah, that is definitely criticism that I don't think that is really

Isabella Roberts: prepared or designed much for in advance. But I think also again on a practical level,

Isabella Roberts: because until you have the 50 participants in the room,

Isabella Roberts: how can you like test for that? You know, unless you get, you know, 50 staff members to just fill out the

room and be like, can you hear that in the back? So I think there's a lot of stuff that is unfortunately

just by the

Isabella Roberts: way things go has to be left for that moment in time.

Isabella Roberts: So yeah, there's a lot of things to do with the physical space

Isabella Roberts: that I would improve with

Isabella Roberts: the citizens' assembly process to just basically make the experience

Isabella Roberts: better from an embodied perspective.

Isabella Roberts: But otherwise, there's there's a few more just more general criticisms of citizens assembly model

Isabella Roberts: that I could say as well.

Isabella Roberts: If at the end of the day, we want them to come up with, you know, good decisions and better

Isabella Roberts: decisions. And that's one of the main criticisms from the outside. You know, how can you trust ordinary people to make decisions

on your behalf? Obviously my argument or

Isabella Roberts: rebuttal there would just be like, well, do you think these politicians are

Isabella Roberts: any much more knowledgeable?

Isabella Roberts: It's all about lived experience. It's all about being able to listen and listen to each other and yeah,

Isabella Roberts: come together for this collective decision making. But there is something around

Isabella Roberts: knowledge management of the process. So like all the,

Isabella Roberts: all the inputs

Isabella Roberts: that come from the participants, everything that comes from the experts,

Isabella Roberts: there's something around the actual, like maybe the note taking

Isabella Roberts: and the transference

Isabella Roberts: of what participants are saying and contributing to this discussion and what actually comes out at the other end. That funnel of

knowledge management, I think needs closer and needs a closer look at. And that's from my experience of doing a couple of

independent evaluations now, you know, because especially if there's no digital tools actually being used to record people's voices,

Isabella Roberts: and you've just got these like small tables and a facilitator

Isabella Roberts: like furiously

Isabella Roberts: scribbling down loads of notes,

Isabella Roberts: there's a lot that gets leaked, right, From what have been said around the table and what's actually ended up on those

scribbled notes. And then those notes are then consolidated

Isabella Roberts: by hand or by the facilitators in person

Isabella Roberts: to come to the final summarized

Isabella Roberts: sort of report or output there. And again, there's all these tools now, even if it's a simple mp3 transcription tool,

Isabella Roberts: there are a

Isabella Roberts: suite of Delibertech tools that you know you're aware of working with for the Safe to LiveTech project, for example.

Isabella Roberts: So yeah, these tools exist. They don't cost much because you know they

Isabella Roberts: have their heart in the right place as well and even in their startups they're much more willing

Isabella Roberts: to be applied for free or near cost basis. It's just about, yeah, these facilitators or delivery organizations

Isabella Roberts: to open up to these tools and kind of,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, not so swallow their pride, but just be open to

Isabella Roberts: adopt this new technology and not be

Isabella Roberts: too

Isabella Roberts: scared or anxious about it because we need to, yeah, evolve or die, basically. And I think that would really help with

the knowledge management of these processes.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. I I think we should not be scared about experimenting

Alessandro Oppo: in the...

Alessandro Oppo: In this field

Alessandro Oppo: because many times I I ask myself why people participate

Alessandro Oppo: or they or why people do not participate in their political

Alessandro Oppo: social life.

Alessandro Oppo: And,

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, I think we should find, like,

Alessandro Oppo: the the best way so that people feel engaged and also they feel like

Alessandro Oppo: they're doing something that they like. So I don't know, meeting new people, talking to people.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: and, yeah, before you mentioned also the SAFE project and because I know that you also work on other projects. So if

you'd like to

Alessandro Oppo: to tell us something.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Sure.

Isabella Roberts: So SAFE, it's got two a's. It's an acronym. So s double a f e. That stands for space for silent contemplation

and reflection,

Isabella Roberts: active listening and feeling heard,

Isabella Roberts: ability to change one's mind, feeling connected as part of a whole, and then E is epistemic growth, epistemic humility, and these

are the safe principles that

Isabella Roberts: I've been working on and actually co developing with a handful of Delebtech

Isabella Roberts: developers,

Isabella Roberts: so the founders of these Delebtech tools such as Deliberate, Dembrain,

Isabella Roberts: the Stanford deliberation platform, and also another one called PSI,

Isabella Roberts: PSI.

Isabella Roberts: We've got a handful of them together alongside

Isabella Roberts: about five

Isabella Roberts: democratic practitioners or facilitators also from across UK, Europe, US,

Isabella Roberts: to get involved in a series of workshops last year, through each of those SAFE principles in turn, and just really going

into detail

Isabella Roberts: in ninety minute workshops,

Isabella Roberts: as well with post surveys, etc, as to, okay, you know, why exactly is

Isabella Roberts: space, persona, contemplation, reflection, important in deliberation?

Isabella Roberts: How do each of these tools currently allow for that? And I think that first principle is quite difficult already to even

think unless you'd use like a pause button or because especially in a world where, yeah, all these digital innovations or civic

tech is all about speeding up processes, making them more efficient, you know,

Isabella Roberts: Technology is essentially making everything fast forward, right? So this first principle of like silent interpolation,

Isabella Roberts: reflection, pause, taking breaks, space for silence is actually kind of reversing that trend.

Isabella Roberts: And that's why these are also called human centered principles because,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, I believe that actually doing things slowly, slowing down,

Isabella Roberts: pausing,

Isabella Roberts: reflecting and meditating is a very conscious thing that like only humans can do and not AI. So that's why these safe

principles are super important when

Isabella Roberts: we're adopting more of these AI powered DulipTech tools,

Isabella Roberts: especially when they're being adopted to scale and speed up processes.

Isabella Roberts: We want to make sure that, okay, if we scale and speed up these processes, how can we retain the humanness,

Isabella Roberts: all that stuff that we've just been talking about, about the human interaction, human connection, how can we still retain that even

though we're using these tools

Isabella Roberts: online or in hybrid processes?

Isabella Roberts: And to be honest that's why, so I did that last year.

Isabella Roberts: It also came from my Masters for Digital Politics Masters, as I mentioned,

Isabella Roberts: that was I guess a couple years prior, so it has been this kind of progression,

Isabella Roberts: you know, of my personal journey as well as how the world's been moving and changing.

Isabella Roberts: And I would say that the PhD project I'm focusing on now with like embodiment, magic in a room, this Boomtown festival

study

Isabella Roberts: is probably really drawing or lifting specifically the F of SAFE, so like feeling connected as part of the whole, like that's

maybe like the main principle that I'm now taking forward into this next phase of my work and study. But yeah, SAFE

to LiveTech is still is still out there. It's still there. It's still alive. You know, it's open to be refined

Isabella Roberts: the more it gets

Isabella Roberts: applied and the feedback that we get.

Isabella Roberts: So the website is there, like the diliptech.com,

Isabella Roberts: and essentially, yeah, any of these deliberative processes that wanna use

Isabella Roberts: any of these DeliTech tools,

Isabella Roberts: just get in touch, and then we can help at the design phase of, like, how to ensure that when we're using

these tools in these processes, like, to use them in a safe way.

Alessandro Oppo: I I think you touched an important point that

Alessandro Oppo: it is,

Alessandro Oppo: let's say, collaboration

Alessandro Oppo: in the civic tech field or political tech field.

Alessandro Oppo: And...

Alessandro Oppo: Because there is a lot of collaboration

Alessandro Oppo: at the... But at the same time, maybe we could also collaborate even more.

Alessandro Oppo: So

Alessandro Oppo: what are your thoughts and experience

Alessandro Oppo: in relation to this?

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. No. That's... Yeah. Thanks for picking up on that, Alessandro, because

Isabella Roberts: for sure, like, in the tech space, usually, it's very competitive. Right? It's very, like, cutthroat, dog eat dog kind of world

out there.

Isabella Roberts: But, yeah, from the start, you know, the Delibertech tools that I convened for this safe danibtech project, super

Isabella Roberts: collaborative,

Isabella Roberts: super cooperative, very open and transparent, you know, they're each giving

Isabella Roberts: demonstrations

Isabella Roberts: of features and maybe upcoming features, beta features that they know that's still in the works and sharing that with other tools

that, you know,

Isabella Roberts: essentially or ultimately are

Isabella Roberts: somewhat in competition with them.

Isabella Roberts: But actually, it's about leaning into each other's strengths, giving feedback that helps the wider cause.

Isabella Roberts: And actually, there's nothing to say, and this also came up during workshops, that there's nothing to say that a single process

can use more than one of these tools at the same time for different phases that suit it best. So, you know,

for example, deliberate could be the sort of background

Isabella Roberts: backend operational,

Isabella Roberts: just dashboard that helps to like store most of the files and the notes, and it's basically used mostly by the facilitators

of the process. And then Dembrane is the one that's more front end on the table, listening to participants and feeding in

all the inputs and contributions

Isabella Roberts: of participants into that backend dashboard that deliberate

Isabella Roberts: is

Isabella Roberts: operating. So, no, it was really it was very, very

Isabella Roberts: conducive and positive in that sense, you know, but then I guess as the years have gone on, I mean, it's probably

like a year and a bit now since those workshops and since we've been we used to catch up monthly again, that's

kind of fizzled off now as we've all moved on to different things.

Isabella Roberts: And we've still got a group chat there,

Isabella Roberts: you know, but when there was like some seldom

Isabella Roberts: funding grants, I think maybe earlier this year, you know, we just share these opportunities with each other and kind of catch

up as well. Like, oh, how did everyone do? Did anyone get it? You know, so it's still very

Isabella Roberts: the attitude is still very collaborative,

Isabella Roberts: but maybe

Isabella Roberts: it's just fizzled out at the moment in time because, know, at the end of the day, you need someone like aka

me or someone else to keep

Isabella Roberts: that group together and keep that glue together. But unless you have a

Isabella Roberts: active community manager in that sense, people just end up going off and doing their own things. But it was a really,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, really inspiring sort of

Isabella Roberts: effort from all of them I would say, and

Isabella Roberts: hopefully, I don't know if there's any other initiatives similar,

Isabella Roberts: but

Isabella Roberts: I hope that that kind of, yeah, approach continues with the other with the other tools.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: I remember also the anti party project

Alessandro Oppo: that is Oh, yeah.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah.

Alessandro Oppo: If you'd like to

Alessandro Oppo: tell us something because...

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah, I mean, I could say something, but it's better if you say something

Alessandro Oppo: by yourself.

Isabella Roberts: Oh, yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, if you... Yeah. If you wanna... What you... I know you have thoughts about political

parties and everything. So if you wanna

Isabella Roberts: start with your angle and I'll see how Ants Party can fit into it maybe. Yeah.

Alessandro Oppo: I mean... Yeah. Because

Alessandro Oppo: I mean, now technology

Alessandro Oppo: is

Alessandro Oppo: being used by,

Alessandro Oppo: I mean, most of the people.

Alessandro Oppo: And we can see society, institutions,

Alessandro Oppo: politics that in

Alessandro Oppo: both in an informal way. So people just... I don't know, politician use WhatsApp or

Alessandro Oppo: another tool to communicate.

Alessandro Oppo: And also from, let's say, formal point of view, we see digitalization

Alessandro Oppo: happening all around society,

Alessandro Oppo: digital transformation.

Alessandro Oppo: And,

Alessandro Oppo: I mean, technology now

Alessandro Oppo: could allow a lot of people to

Alessandro Oppo: discuss,

Alessandro Oppo: decide.

Alessandro Oppo: And so it is possible now to do what it was not possible to do, let's say ten years ago or twenty

years ago.

Alessandro Oppo: And so I was... Yeah. Many times I thought about

Alessandro Oppo: how political parties

Alessandro Oppo: could evolve or maybe we don't need political parties.

Alessandro Oppo: You can just have citizens that communicate with institutions.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah.

Alessandro Oppo: But

Alessandro Oppo: all of this is... All of those are, let's say, open questions,

Alessandro Oppo: and they don't have

Alessandro Oppo: clear thoughts about it.

Alessandro Oppo: I mean, I have some thoughts. Mhmm. But, yeah, I was curious about yours one.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. And I'm just trying to find the stat now because you picked up on it. So I think it's...

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. So a survey of over 1,000,000 people showed that only 1.9%

Isabella Roberts: of these one over 1,000,000 people, only 1.9%

Isabella Roberts: chose policies that fit within a single political party. So that's in The UK. I know you're based in Italy, so it's

a bit different, but

Isabella Roberts: yeah, within The UK, you know, party membership is down,

Isabella Roberts: people's policy preferences don't even fit into a single party, we have a voting system that

Isabella Roberts: spits out this, you know, two party result each time, it's a pendulum swinging each election essentially.

Isabella Roberts: It's totally, yeah, it's totally defunct, and so that's why I created this movement called anti party,

Isabella Roberts: which ruffled a few feathers even in the beginning. I think people were just so

Isabella Roberts: even at just anything that's like anti or whatever, like can also

Isabella Roberts: create

Isabella Roberts: quite strong reactions interestingly enough, but then even people who or groups that

Isabella Roberts: say that they're apolitical or nonpartisan,

Isabella Roberts: and I would have thought that anti party is within the same category, but apparently not. Still, we were still kind of

sidelined

Isabella Roberts: from those

Isabella Roberts: groups. But it's yeah, what you just said as well about if citizens can make all our decisions directly through all these

platforms that's available now, all these digital tools that's available,

Isabella Roberts: convening and collectively deciding with

Isabella Roberts: models such as citizens' assemblies.

Isabella Roberts: It's very, very possible, and I totally believe in that vision and that's

Isabella Roberts: the decisive system change I'm working towards. Think I one of the key hurdles, though, is really just raising awareness of what

else is possible, you know, and again in The UK, there was that recent

Isabella Roberts: poll that was

Isabella Roberts: it was since been kind of picked apart, but the headline at the time before it was picked apart was that majority

of Gen Z preferred dictatorship to a democracy. And that's because in that survey,

Isabella Roberts: the alternative

Isabella Roberts: to what they defined as democracy, which is simply

Isabella Roberts: the voting for the next politician model,

Isabella Roberts: of course, they're going to pick a dictatorship because they're like, they're so fed up with the current system, the current way

things are, that they think the only other alternative is a is a benevolent dictator. And it's like, well, actually, there's a

few other things in between that, aka

Isabella Roberts: deliberative democracy, the citizens' assembly model. But if people don't know that,

Isabella Roberts: they're not going to know to pick it. And then the survey, which is also very prescriptive

Isabella Roberts: in the options it gives you, right? That's why things like voting, referendum,

Isabella Roberts: I think are very blunt tools,

Isabella Roberts: because they only give you set prescribed options, whereas in a citizen's assembly, it's open, it's generative,

Isabella Roberts: anything can emerge in that space,

Isabella Roberts: and it's a much more safe and controlled space in terms of the information and the environment

Isabella Roberts: that you're

Isabella Roberts: deliberating and deciding within.

Isabella Roberts: Apart from,

Isabella Roberts: again, which is different to the Wild West that we're currently in normally day to day with social media, fake news, algorithms,

Isabella Roberts: and that's the current Wild West information environment that we're currently doing

Isabella Roberts: making decisions on referendum and voting. So

Isabella Roberts: people need to be aware that these alternative models exist in the first instance.

Isabella Roberts: So yeah, think it's down to the whole space really to just spread that to spread that awareness. And I think, know,

for me, like a key

Isabella Roberts: key indicator of success of, like, all the work and research that I'm doing is that just if the average person off

the street, taxi driver, someone I meet if in the smoking area of a bar or whatever knows what a citizen assembly

is and they are really

Isabella Roberts: keen to take part in one sometime. To me that would be that would mean, okay, great. We're finally living in a

world where

Isabella Roberts: this alternative and I think better system is is really becoming a reality.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. And before

Alessandro Oppo: when your dog wanted to say something, I can suppose I can imagine that he wanted to participate in the conversation.

Alessandro Oppo: It made me think about

Alessandro Oppo: an interview I made to Alicia Kaziragi,

Alessandro Oppo: that is a professor

Alessandro Oppo: in Milano.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: I don't remember exactly, but I remember she was saying something about

Alessandro Oppo: maybe we should also include animals in the conversation

Alessandro Oppo: about what they want.

Alessandro Oppo: Mhmm. Like in the...

Alessandro Oppo: And of course, we cannot ask them to participate in a citizen assembly,

Alessandro Oppo: but maybe there are ways to, let's say, involve them in the political life

Alessandro Oppo: because it happened many times that in history that we do not include a group of people

Alessandro Oppo: in the decisions. So it could be people with a different

Alessandro Oppo: color of the skin, could be

Alessandro Oppo: different religious group, or it could be...

Alessandro Oppo: It happened the same with women. And so

Alessandro Oppo: maybe in the future, we will include those animals

Alessandro Oppo: and we will ask their Yeah.

Alessandro Oppo: Sort of feedback

Alessandro Oppo: from

Alessandro Oppo: from them.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah.

Isabella Roberts: That yeah, that would be really cute. I mean, there's a there is a conversation about sort of non human,

Isabella Roberts: including the non human into,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, deliberative democracy or in the in the new democracy,

Isabella Roberts: and that includes, you know, things like rivers and natural

Isabella Roberts: phenomena as well, so like whether it's like rivers and trees and things.

Isabella Roberts: I mean, yeah, and like you say, even within humans, there's been groups that's been excluded, there's languages that

Isabella Roberts: are also potentially excluded,

Isabella Roberts: so there is a lot of criteria

Isabella Roberts: to even communicate smoothly amongst smoothly and fully and accessibly

Isabella Roberts: and fully, right, between the same species of us humans. So I mean,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, I mean, I smile and obviously I'm an animal lover and I do also love nature. So on a theoretical level,

like absolutely would love to do that. But do I trust humans to translate

Isabella Roberts: these non human sort of messages or needs,

Isabella Roberts: you know, in an unbiased

Isabella Roberts: way without their own agenda of whoever's doing the translating

Isabella Roberts: into

Isabella Roberts: the assembly or into the conversation? I don't know. I'm not sure if I trust humans to do that, to be honest.

So unless we get a new technology or something,

Isabella Roberts: or I can experience

Isabella Roberts: firsthand myself some sort of like,

Isabella Roberts: you

Isabella Roberts: know, psycho transmission

Isabella Roberts: through some sort of transcendental meditation of like, yeah, what, what these non human entities want.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah,

Isabella Roberts: I'm not sure I would, I would be

Alessandro Oppo: so trusting of humans to do that. No, of course, because then it will be also representative

Alessandro Oppo: democracy in a way.

Alessandro Oppo: So where a human is representing

Alessandro Oppo: a lot of dogs.

Alessandro Oppo: Okay. I wonder, like, if we ask their dog, would you prefer, like, at the supermarket there or a public park?

Alessandro Oppo: Then maybe we can imagine, like,

Alessandro Oppo: the reply.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: yeah, but of course also this is an open question about if

Alessandro Oppo: and how to include the non

Alessandro Oppo: humans,

Alessandro Oppo: but I think it will

Alessandro Oppo: be interesting.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Maybe you can speak with someone from that space in your next...

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. That'd be great.

Alessandro Oppo: Absolutely.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: at the beginning, were talking about

Alessandro Oppo: when you did your research, when you,

Alessandro Oppo: let's say, also changed your,

Alessandro Oppo: let's say, your career because you said that

Alessandro Oppo: you started working

Alessandro Oppo: on democracy later on.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: and you said something about what democracy actual means,

Alessandro Oppo: and so I was wondering what is for you democracy?

Isabella Roberts: Yeah, thanks.

Isabella Roberts: It's a yeah, it's a really good question. I think everyone should be asked that question as well at the beginning, especially

because we can all start talking about something usually,

Isabella Roberts: but in our heads

Isabella Roberts: be interpreting a very different thing. So to me, is about

Isabella Roberts: everyone having a say, everyone having a voice,

Isabella Roberts: and being able to contribute to decision making,

Isabella Roberts: and also

Isabella Roberts: that

Isabella Roberts: opportunity

Isabella Roberts: to contribute being fair and equal amongst everyone, so just everyone.

Isabella Roberts: At least everyone that's able to vote, so obviously there's age limits there.

Isabella Roberts: And essentially, and I know that there's this whole thing about having to having the ability to make decisions

Isabella Roberts: on issues that affect them, but obviously in the representative model and also with the citizen's assembly model, people might get

called to a citizen's assembly on an issue, maybe it's same sex marriage, that doesn't directly affect them, but you are still

making these decisions or contributing to the decision on behalf of what you think is best for

Isabella Roberts: the rest of society, the rest of humanity. So

Isabella Roberts: yeah, it's being able to just essentially have a say and be able to contribute to that, and also trusting that other

people like you

Isabella Roberts: will have you in mind when they go and do that on your behalf.

Isabella Roberts: And that's why I do my I believe that the direct deliberative model

Isabella Roberts: where people are randomly selected

Isabella Roberts: and they

Isabella Roberts: they step up with their own lived experiences

Isabella Roberts: and their own, you know, their own stories,

Isabella Roberts: own

Isabella Roberts: ups and downs in their own life, and everyone's lived through a myriad of things,

Isabella Roberts: when that's why they I think have a much more richer experience

Isabella Roberts: to contribute to these decisions as opposed to career politicians who, for example, the standard,

Isabella Roberts: you know, went through school,

Isabella Roberts: went to uni, started working in parliament,

Isabella Roberts: you know, got, you know, got elected, become the Conservative politician, and it's all about they focus so much of their time

and energy

Isabella Roberts: on

Isabella Roberts: gaining and retaining power.

Isabella Roberts: So the moment we remove that, the moment we remove this sort of like hunger for power and for keeping hold of

power, and you just strip it back down to just like the everyday normal human and individual,

Isabella Roberts: I think the decisions are going to be much more rich, much more empathetic and compassionate.

Isabella Roberts: And also, again, you strip away the party whip,

Isabella Roberts: so these politicians have in The UK anyway, part of the system, or we have this whip system

Isabella Roberts: where these politicians are essentially being whipped into saying top down

Isabella Roberts: what,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, what they should, what they should say, what they should vote. So they're not even actually voting with their

Isabella Roberts: own,

Isabella Roberts: you know, conscience.

Isabella Roberts: They are simply following what the party line tells them to do. So if you just strip all of that away,

Isabella Roberts: then, you know, we're going to have much better decisions

Isabella Roberts: on behalf of the rest of society.

Alessandro Oppo: And how

Alessandro Oppo: do you imagine like society,

Alessandro Oppo: I know it's

Alessandro Oppo: hard to reply, but it's like,

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, in five years, ten years, twenty years,

Alessandro Oppo: Are

Alessandro Oppo: you, let's say, optimistic, pessimistic?

Alessandro Oppo: Is there something you would like to see? I mean, I can imagine that you would like to see more,

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, citizen assembly or, like, people talking to each other.

Alessandro Oppo: But yeah, if you have a

Alessandro Oppo: sort of

Alessandro Oppo: image of how society

Alessandro Oppo: could be or should be.

Isabella Roberts: Mhmm.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. I mean,

Isabella Roberts: so I mean, maybe just bringing it right back round to,

Isabella Roberts: you know, festivals. Right? I mean, I did this BoomTown Festival experiment

Isabella Roberts: study,

Isabella Roberts: but I also go to other kinds of festivals.

Isabella Roberts: So there's sort of these more, yeah,

Isabella Roberts: musical,

Isabella Roberts: but more spiritual and like non alcoholic. They call them like, you know, kind of higher

Isabella Roberts: consciousness wellness festivals in The UK. Medicine festival is a big one. Soul Revolution is a really promising one. I went to

the first time this year as well. You know, then so with Soul Revolution Festival, for example, next year, their theme is

The Rising.

Isabella Roberts: And

Isabella Roberts: there's a real opportunity, I think, when people go to these sort of

Isabella Roberts: spaces where they're, yeah, again, there's good vibes. People are working on themselves with each other

Isabella Roberts: in a safe,

Isabella Roberts: natural environment, you know, yes, literally surrounded by nature, grass beneath your feet.

Isabella Roberts: So it's a very embodied

Isabella Roberts: experience,

Isabella Roberts: but it's also facilitated

Isabella Roberts: and safe and spiritual.

Isabella Roberts: It doesn't have to be religious, but it's spiritual. We all have a soul and a spirit. I believe we all have

a conscience and we all have a consciousness, but not everyone has the opportunity to get in touch with that. And so

these spaces are great opportunities

Isabella Roberts: for individuals, for every single person to get in touch with that in their own way,

Isabella Roberts: whether it's breath work, sound healing,

Isabella Roberts: a dance movement workshop,

Isabella Roberts: all sorts, and some of them, yes, they draw from indigenous wisdoms, etc,

Isabella Roberts: and they have people coming from all over the country to bring their cultural

Isabella Roberts: spirituality practices as well. So you'd really just go, you get to go and get drawn

Isabella Roberts: and pulled towards whichever feels

Isabella Roberts: right for you. And we all come from different backgrounds as well. So what appeals more to you might not appeal to

me. For example, there was a fire walking exercise, you know, at one of the festivals

Isabella Roberts: or like a hape thing. So,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, it's it's a really, really enriching experience that I think, you know, to day in our lives of like work, study,

Isabella Roberts: you know, just this like constant churn of survival and, you know, potential routine, you know, everyone's day to day lives. It's

an amazing

Isabella Roberts: intervention

Isabella Roberts: to go to these kind of like festivals or even retreats, you know, any time of the year, there's retreats that you

can go on for like a few days or a week again with all their varying styles.

Isabella Roberts: And

Isabella Roberts: so I would really invite, yeah, everyone

Isabella Roberts: to

Isabella Roberts: enter these spaces or take the time and space for themselves to really get in tune with that inner world,

Isabella Roberts: to then be able to enter

Isabella Roberts: the outside world and contribute to the wider systems change from a place of more groundedness,

Isabella Roberts: more self awareness,

Isabella Roberts: and hopefully a more empathetic and compassionate place. And I think that also brings in this

Isabella Roberts: phrase that I came up with with the anti party launch party

Isabella Roberts: a few years ago at the same time as the last general election in The UK. But the phrases like systems change

starts from within.

Isabella Roberts: So you know, before we enter these phases,

Isabella Roberts: whether it's a citizens' assembly or whether it's even like, you know, a protest march or just any sort of democratic engagement,

Isabella Roberts: you would hope that we as participants,

Isabella Roberts: as citizens are,

Isabella Roberts: you know, already self aware and sure of ourselves. We know where we're coming from, and therefore we're also able to whole

space, be kind and compassionate to other people as well. Because I think at the end of the day,

Isabella Roberts: a lot of the issues that come up in society that's about,

Isabella Roberts: you know, othering,

Isabella Roberts: hatred of other groups,

Isabella Roberts: blame, fear,

Isabella Roberts: excuse me,

Isabella Roberts: that all comes

Isabella Roberts: from some sort of disturbance and something's triggering you from the inside, you know? So the sooner that we

Isabella Roberts: identify and deal with that,

Isabella Roberts: then the sooner

Isabella Roberts: our outside world will respond to that in a more positive way.

Alessandro Oppo: Mhmm.

Alessandro Oppo: And I

Alessandro Oppo: have still a couple of question,

Alessandro Oppo: and I

Alessandro Oppo: was thinking

Alessandro Oppo: both for

Alessandro Oppo: the field of politics

Alessandro Oppo: and both,

Alessandro Oppo: and also the field of technology,

Alessandro Oppo: there are more males than female.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: and also at the intersection of technology and politics

Alessandro Oppo: is maybe even more in equal.

Alessandro Oppo: So I was wondering, like, what is your experience about it?

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. I mean, I came from a already male dominated environment with finance. Right? So it wasn't really a big surprise to

me. And also when I ran the London Assembly,

Isabella Roberts: I was the only and youngest female...

Isabella Roberts: Youngest person. I'm the only female in that whole party,

Isabella Roberts: and there was an independent party at the time.

Isabella Roberts: So, yeah, you know, did I feel

Isabella Roberts: like I could really connect with my other teammates, especially when at the time,

Isabella Roberts: the Sarah Everard case here in London of this girl being kidnapped and killed by a certain police officer that was erupting

at the same time as the election campaign. So

Isabella Roberts: as a solo female living in London at the time, you know, I'm reading and hearing about this. She was missing for

ages and news was being coming out as the days goes on about, okay, now she's found who did it. Oh my

God, looks like a police officer did it. It's a very scary time. Meanwhile, I'm exposing myself out there on this campaign

trail saying, you know, vote for me and I'm opening myself up to all sorts of criticism and stuff at the time

as you do, as any people running for, you know, election does.

Isabella Roberts: Did I feel like safe and supported by the rest of my team members? No. Would it have helped if there were

other women or females in the team, in the party? Yeah, for sure, because then they would understand

Isabella Roberts: where I'm coming from and they'll understand the woman's experience.

Isabella Roberts: I have noticed that

Isabella Roberts: it

Isabella Roberts: is a shame because, and you know, I don't want to stereotype, and actually from my

Isabella Roberts: BoomTown

Isabella Roberts: study, the findings so far, there's no distinction between male and female.

Isabella Roberts: I actually did push back a bit with my supervisors in the beginning about collecting gender data in the beginning, because I'm

just looking at the human experience, the embodied experience, you know, against AI.

Isabella Roberts: And so for me, it's human versus AI. It's not about

Isabella Roberts: genders

Isabella Roberts: between each other in the in between humans. So but in the end, I was like, okay, whatever, I'll just put it

on there. Obviously there's lots of different genders and options available now, but essentially high level though, we had a very mixed

we had out of the 75 participants overall, very mixed

Isabella Roberts: group in terms of gender, but so far like no

Isabella Roberts: split in the findings of the physiological sensations and the impact on people between genders. So that has no impact. But in

terms of like, you know, why there might be less women.

Isabella Roberts: Well, maybe I can't really speak to why there's not as much women in this space,

Isabella Roberts: but I can speak to why it would be good to have more women in this space. And just as a very

high level example,

Isabella Roberts: I was going through a UK Select Committee minutes document just the other night,

Isabella Roberts: and there's three people

Isabella Roberts: from the democracy space reporting on that, two guys and one lady.

Isabella Roberts: And the two guys, their sort of, you know, contributions and

Isabella Roberts: statements were very much, you know,

Isabella Roberts: why something would be better, how to do it better

Isabella Roberts: in a very practical sense and, you know, positives and minuses, that kind of very, yeah, very logically

Isabella Roberts: setting out the preferred route.

Isabella Roberts: But then it was actually the lady that brought up things about like education and awareness. And it was actually her that

brought up these very like much

Isabella Roberts: more subtle

Isabella Roberts: between the lines.

Isabella Roberts: And I guess again something to do with

Isabella Roberts: actually taking into account like humans sort of lives and experience and feelings and experience of

Isabella Roberts: what's being proposed or what's happening

Isabella Roberts: into account,

Isabella Roberts: you know, and so again, I don't want to stereotype and say that, oh, you know,

Isabella Roberts: men don't take into account

Isabella Roberts: emotions and feelings and women do more.

Isabella Roberts: But if we do need to include,

Isabella Roberts: we need to include more women anyway. We need to include more

Isabella Roberts: more consideration

Isabella Roberts: of these factors,

Isabella Roberts: especially if we're talking about like the digital democracy space and everything is becoming more mechanic,

Isabella Roberts: you know, autonomous,

Isabella Roberts: etcetera, etcetera.

Isabella Roberts: And yes, at the end of the day, I am a female, I'm a woman, and is it any surprise that my

research is all about, yeah, like feelings and experience and embodiment, because that's a big gap that I spotted in

Isabella Roberts: the literature so far and in the research so far, and that's what I'm trying to reverse or refocus

Isabella Roberts: to balance everything out. Know, everything's about balance. That's why we have men and women and the yin and yang and all

these things.

Isabella Roberts: So

Isabella Roberts: yeah, we definitely need to bring to bring back balance. And

Isabella Roberts: it's also no surprise that when I am doing my readings,

Isabella Roberts: a lot of the key literature that I am drawing from,

Isabella Roberts: you know, there's like Donna Haraway, like cyborg feminism,

Isabella Roberts: Amanda Manchin, like bodies and politics.

Isabella Roberts: And there's one other lady, I'm going to remember her later, but like, you know, the key readings on sort of like

Isabella Roberts: embodiment,

Isabella Roberts: feelings,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, empathy. There's like La la Meradova here at Southampton

Isabella Roberts: University.

Isabella Roberts: It's it's all women contributing this stuff, you know. So,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, hoping to just add to that to essentially just make sure that everything is as balanced as possible.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. Thank you. Also, because I think it's important because if

Alessandro Oppo: it happens that,

Alessandro Oppo: I mean, if

Alessandro Oppo: with technology

Alessandro Oppo: and new practises, we can create a sort of,

Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, new political system, social system,

Alessandro Oppo: then it will be nice to to hear every voice.

Alessandro Oppo: I mean, not just inside the citizen assembly, but also people that organize and also different contribution and different attention

Alessandro Oppo: to what people say.

Alessandro Oppo: So I think it's very important this...

Alessandro Oppo: And

Isabella Roberts: if you have a And isn't the first computer

Isabella Roberts: programmer like that Ada Lovelace?

Isabella Roberts: Like wasn't she like the first, right? And she obviously, she was a lady and she came from a very different background

of sort of humanities,

Isabella Roberts: she was the daughter of that famous poet. Right? So

Isabella Roberts: I think also even within history,

Isabella Roberts: there's a lot of examples where women have contributed a lot to the development and design and the

Isabella Roberts: leaps that this technology has had to get here. But then it's just a shame that now,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, most of the digital democracy or, you know, civic tech space tends to be being run by by men. So,

Isabella Roberts: yeah, let's see if we can shift that.

Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. I I've read recently

Alessandro Oppo: Zeros and Ones from study plant,

Alessandro Oppo: and

Alessandro Oppo: she was also

Alessandro Oppo: telling about Ada Lovelace history.

Alessandro Oppo: And also it was interesting that she was comparing

Alessandro Oppo: like the,

Alessandro Oppo: let's say, art of... Is it weaving?

Alessandro Oppo: Like,

Alessandro Oppo: when you produce fabric,

Alessandro Oppo: is it like...

Alessandro Oppo: Weave. It is basically an weaving. Yeah.

Alessandro Oppo: That is very similar because at the end, there's a sort of network of different threads.

Alessandro Oppo: And so she was comparing

Alessandro Oppo: it to,

Alessandro Oppo: let's say, to the Internet and and

Alessandro Oppo: there were different parallels to technology.

Alessandro Oppo: It was quite interesting.

Alessandro Oppo: And

Alessandro Oppo: I have the last question that is

Alessandro Oppo: about if you have a message for all the people that are working in the field

Alessandro Oppo: or in different parts of the field.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah, I think, you know,

Isabella Roberts: in line with the themes that we've

Isabella Roberts: touched upon in this conversation.

Isabella Roberts: Yeah, my like, you know, kind of key message or invite to others in the field, anyone listening, is to

Isabella Roberts: have a think about

Isabella Roberts: what sort of

Isabella Roberts: embodiment practices have you done recently or can you do to basically get in touch

Isabella Roberts: with your

Isabella Roberts: physical experience of your body in this space? And just remember that we are embodied beings and we have more than five

senses.

Isabella Roberts: Right? It's not just everything that's going on in our mind,

Isabella Roberts: and just really, yeah,

Isabella Roberts: bring yourself out of your mind, back into your body,

Isabella Roberts: into your heart space, into your breath, into your lungs. I'm gonna stop there before I do my whole like bruise of

Bella meditation spirit, but yeah, even if that's a five, ten minute meditation first thing in the morning,

Isabella Roberts: going to an ecstatic dance event, there's loads around London, I'm sure wherever you are in The UK, you can find something

that find a sound healing event, and I would just really invite you to try out one of these

Isabella Roberts: potentially crazy woo woo experience workshops

Isabella Roberts: and

Isabella Roberts: just see see how you feel and just be really really aware of how you feel and how it's shifted anything

Alessandro Oppo: inside you. Thank you a lot, Willa.

Alessandro Oppo: Really?

Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Thanks, Alessandra. Thanks for your questions.

Isabella Roberts: We've gone through so many deep things.

Alessandro Oppo: And if you want to add anything else, otherwise, I close the

Isabella Roberts: Oh, pressure's on now. I would just say,

Isabella Roberts: well, maybe even just after listening to this, let's just say, after listening to this, just just take

Isabella Roberts: one minute in complete silence,

Isabella Roberts: focusing on your breath

Isabella Roberts: and just see what emerges

Isabella Roberts: and just be really, really present in the moment.

Isabella Roberts: Enjoy.

Isabella Roberts: Thank you. Thank you.