1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:06,160 Alessandro Oppo: Welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator podcast, and our guest of today is Isabella Roberts. 2 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:09,200 Alessandro Oppo: So thank you, Isabella, for joining us. 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:11,760 Isabella Roberts: Thanks, Sandra. 4 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:13,920 Alessandro Oppo: And, 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:15,920 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, the first question is 6 00:00:15,975 --> 00:00:18,695 Alessandro Oppo: if you can tell us something about you 7 00:00:19,255 --> 00:00:22,695 Alessandro Oppo: and so personal background or also academic. 8 00:00:23,095 --> 00:00:25,095 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Sure. I'll 9 00:00:25,095 --> 00:00:29,540 Isabella Roberts: try and keep it brief. Otherwise, we could be here forever. I think what's relevant for this conversation 10 00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:32,020 Isabella Roberts: is, yeah, I came from a different background actually. 11 00:00:32,980 --> 00:00:35,060 Isabella Roberts: I came into the democracy space 12 00:00:36,020 --> 00:00:42,660 Isabella Roberts: with sort of full steam ahead, I would say, because I actually switched from a professional career in 13 00:00:43,195 --> 00:00:44,715 Isabella Roberts: finance, investments, 14 00:00:45,035 --> 00:00:46,635 Isabella Roberts: auditing, fundraising 15 00:00:47,275 --> 00:00:48,555 Isabella Roberts: straight into 16 00:00:48,635 --> 00:00:49,435 Isabella Roberts: a 17 00:00:49,515 --> 00:00:50,315 Isabella Roberts: election 18 00:00:50,395 --> 00:00:52,315 Isabella Roberts: campaign in 2021. 19 00:00:52,315 --> 00:00:55,915 Isabella Roberts: So I left I left the sort of banking and finance industry 20 00:00:56,540 --> 00:01:01,990 Isabella Roberts: and at the time of COVID and Boris Johnson because I was just so fed up with what the prime minister at 21 00:01:01,990 --> 00:01:04,220 the time was doing to our country, our democracy, 22 00:01:04,220 --> 00:01:10,460 Isabella Roberts: and I decided to take a stand, and that was that looked like running for the London Assembly elections in 23 00:01:10,540 --> 00:01:15,875 Isabella Roberts: May 2021. Then And after that experience, decided to retrain, reeducate myself 24 00:01:16,115 --> 00:01:23,461 Isabella Roberts: and just, yeah, embark on this journey of inquiry as to like, you know, what does democracy actually mean? Separating democracy from 25 00:01:23,461 --> 00:01:24,261 politics, 26 00:01:24,490 --> 00:01:31,090 Isabella Roberts: Even though I got involved in this election campaign that's very political about parties and people trying to win over each other, 27 00:01:31,090 --> 00:01:31,890 win votes, 28 00:01:31,850 --> 00:01:33,050 Isabella Roberts: through my masters 29 00:01:33,450 --> 00:01:41,025 Isabella Roberts: in digital politics and sustainable development, I actually focused my thesis on how can collective intelligence 30 00:01:41,105 --> 00:01:42,545 Isabella Roberts: enhance democracy. 31 00:01:42,545 --> 00:01:47,185 Isabella Roberts: So yeah, looking at actually other forms of democracy that's more deliberative, more collective, 32 00:01:47,265 --> 00:01:48,065 Isabella Roberts: more direct, 33 00:01:48,625 --> 00:01:49,425 Isabella Roberts: and 34 00:01:49,745 --> 00:01:53,985 Isabella Roberts: that's led me to where I am now. So I've just started a PhD at Southampton University this year 35 00:01:54,420 --> 00:02:00,420 Isabella Roberts: and focusing on exactly like deliberative democracy, but also how AI and immersive tech can enhance that, 36 00:02:00,820 --> 00:02:05,540 Isabella Roberts: and also replicate the feelings of engaging with deliberative democracy 37 00:02:05,540 --> 00:02:08,660 Isabella Roberts: between in person and online virtual formats. 38 00:02:09,395 --> 00:02:12,515 Isabella Roberts: So yeah, that's that's where I've come from, so not fully 39 00:02:12,595 --> 00:02:14,195 Isabella Roberts: academic background, 40 00:02:14,595 --> 00:02:19,155 Isabella Roberts: but I find myself pretty much in the academic world right now. I've also worked on a couple of 41 00:02:19,795 --> 00:02:21,555 Isabella Roberts: deliberative processes with 42 00:02:21,810 --> 00:02:26,997 Isabella Roberts: the Birmingham Museums Trust and the National Gallery in The UK, so it just happens to be arts and culture sector, but 43 00:02:26,997 --> 00:02:30,770 I think it's important to note as well that even though I'm in the academic space, 44 00:02:31,010 --> 00:02:36,942 Isabella Roberts: I have actually physically been in the room of these Citizens Assembly, Citizens Juries, so I actually do know what it feels 45 00:02:36,942 --> 00:02:42,065 like. So when I'm writing about and researching about it, like, I actually have this firsthand experience as well. 46 00:02:42,465 --> 00:02:43,745 Alessandro Oppo: Wonderful. And 47 00:02:44,545 --> 00:02:45,425 Alessandro Oppo: you also... 48 00:02:45,985 --> 00:02:46,865 Alessandro Oppo: You just... 49 00:02:47,105 --> 00:02:49,665 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. I mean, I know that you're working on a project, 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,480 Alessandro Oppo: let's call the BoomTown 51 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,240 Alessandro Oppo: Festival project. 52 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,080 Alessandro Oppo: And if you'd like to tell us something about it, 53 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,160 Alessandro Oppo: I know that it's still ongoing, 54 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:02,360 Alessandro Oppo: the research. So. 55 00:03:03,655 --> 00:03:04,455 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. 56 00:03:05,255 --> 00:03:11,655 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. So I'm really excited to share this with you hot off the press. But, yeah, this summer I went to BoomTown 57 00:03:11,655 --> 00:03:14,855 Festival, which is this huge music immersive festival in The UK. 58 00:03:15,175 --> 00:03:20,720 Isabella Roberts: It's almost like The UK version of Tomorrowland, I would say. Maybe it's a Stephanie Rogers festival 59 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,000 Isabella Roberts: after Glastonbury, 60 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:22,800 Isabella Roberts: but 61 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:30,440 Isabella Roberts: it's interesting because I personally have had my own journey with BoomTown. It's my fifth year going this year, but then it 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:37,046 just so happened that the first year that BoomTown Festival is hosting this academic research tent called the Observatory, so it's 63 00:03:37,046 --> 00:03:41,135 a specific venue within the festival that is focused on a range of, 64 00:03:41,455 --> 00:03:47,850 Isabella Roberts: yeah, academics doing different focusing on different research projects from, you know, like movement is medicine, 65 00:03:48,570 --> 00:03:49,450 Isabella Roberts: the brain 66 00:03:49,850 --> 00:03:52,490 Isabella Roberts: signals when someone's doing yoga or meditation, 67 00:03:52,570 --> 00:03:53,610 Isabella Roberts: and then to mine, 68 00:03:54,170 --> 00:03:55,450 Isabella Roberts: my workshop was called 69 00:03:56,170 --> 00:03:57,850 Isabella Roberts: Dancing Our Way into a New Democracy. 70 00:03:58,785 --> 00:04:00,305 Isabella Roberts: I ran two sessions 71 00:04:00,385 --> 00:04:07,265 Isabella Roberts: on the Thursday and a semester day and basically set up a mini citizens' assembly format, one hour each, 72 00:04:07,585 --> 00:04:10,225 Isabella Roberts: each of those days, replicated the exact same design, 73 00:04:10,625 --> 00:04:12,945 Isabella Roberts: and wanted to measure through 74 00:04:13,580 --> 00:04:17,420 Isabella Roberts: people's feedback in surveys, but also measure through directly 75 00:04:17,420 --> 00:04:18,540 Isabella Roberts: and objectively 76 00:04:18,540 --> 00:04:23,020 Isabella Roberts: through these biosensory equipment that look like mood rings that you have on your finger, 77 00:04:23,420 --> 00:04:25,180 Isabella Roberts: that can also sense the physiological 78 00:04:25,515 --> 00:04:27,595 Isabella Roberts: physiological responses of participants, 79 00:04:27,595 --> 00:04:30,795 Isabella Roberts: meaning you know their heart rate, heart rate variability, 80 00:04:31,595 --> 00:04:33,435 Isabella Roberts: galvanic skin responses, 81 00:04:33,755 --> 00:04:34,555 Isabella Roberts: temperature, 82 00:04:35,275 --> 00:04:40,885 Isabella Roberts: all these things that our body is actually signaling or telling us about how we're feeling in that moment. So then I've 83 00:04:40,885 --> 00:04:44,710 also got this data that tracks in real time, like how the body is responding 84 00:04:45,270 --> 00:04:48,230 Isabella Roberts: to that mini citizens assembly event. 85 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:51,030 Isabella Roberts: So yeah, really, really interesting, and it's just really cool that, 86 00:04:51,430 --> 00:04:58,528 Isabella Roberts: you know, Boomtown Festival has its own reputation. I don't if any listeners here will be familiar with it, But yeah, it 87 00:04:58,528 --> 00:05:05,626 is maybe known as this. Yeah, big drum and bass, like lots of it's its own world, you know, every year of 88 00:05:05,626 --> 00:05:07,885 the festival, there's a storyline that progresses. 89 00:05:08,365 --> 00:05:09,725 Isabella Roberts: And it's just so crazy 90 00:05:09,885 --> 00:05:14,992 Isabella Roberts: that this year, it was the first year that they do an academic research tent, which is also the same year that 91 00:05:14,992 --> 00:05:15,920 I'm doing my PhD. 92 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:22,507 Isabella Roberts: And also the storyline of BoomTown this year had a little mini citizens assembly and they called it the network assembly. So 93 00:05:22,507 --> 00:05:28,854 there's immersive actors and performers in the festival that actually like all jump up almost like a flash dance and had this, 94 00:05:28,854 --> 00:05:32,605 like, sort of mini assembly on the weekend too. So it's just really, 95 00:05:32,845 --> 00:05:35,805 Isabella Roberts: yeah, one of those synchronous moments when all these themes 96 00:05:36,205 --> 00:05:38,285 Isabella Roberts: kind of come together at the same time 97 00:05:38,605 --> 00:05:41,005 Isabella Roberts: from different areas or angles. And, 98 00:05:41,630 --> 00:05:48,350 Isabella Roberts: yeah, it's great to be working on it this year. So, yeah, glad to share with you how how that workshop went. 99 00:05:48,590 --> 00:05:53,550 Isabella Roberts: And, I can also speak to some of the the findings or results if you'd like to hear that high level now. 100 00:05:54,345 --> 00:05:56,265 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. It's super interesting because 101 00:05:56,505 --> 00:06:04,265 Alessandro Oppo: I'm thinking that citizen assembly often they are done in, let's say, more institutional places or maybe inside the academy. 102 00:06:04,585 --> 00:06:07,305 Alessandro Oppo: And I can imagine that the festival there are, 103 00:06:07,545 --> 00:06:08,905 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, other vibes. 104 00:06:09,650 --> 00:06:12,450 Alessandro Oppo: So maybe more like good vibes. And so, 105 00:06:12,930 --> 00:06:15,250 Alessandro Oppo: I will be interested in knowing more about 106 00:06:16,370 --> 00:06:17,330 Alessandro Oppo: your findings. 107 00:06:17,890 --> 00:06:18,930 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Good. 108 00:06:19,250 --> 00:06:20,290 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Very good point. 109 00:06:21,285 --> 00:06:28,082 Isabella Roberts: Very good point. And also, I guess that is essentially like very much a limitation that I'll write into the report findings 110 00:06:28,082 --> 00:06:30,245 as well, because exactly as you say, 111 00:06:31,525 --> 00:06:38,247 Isabella Roberts: there is already good vibes in the room. So, you know, if I come up with these results saying, okay, yeah, everyone 112 00:06:38,247 --> 00:06:44,358 had a great time, felt really energized, buoyant, smiling, well actually if they're already in this stressful environment that you 113 00:06:44,358 --> 00:06:45,580 know is generally positive, 114 00:06:45,660 --> 00:06:48,540 Isabella Roberts: you know, to what extent was the deliberative 115 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:50,140 Isabella Roberts: event contributing 116 00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:50,940 Isabella Roberts: to that? 117 00:06:51,385 --> 00:06:56,665 Isabella Roberts: And at the end of the day, vibes is also, you know, short for vibration, so and actually from an academic 118 00:06:57,065 --> 00:06:57,945 Isabella Roberts: perspective, 119 00:06:58,185 --> 00:07:06,925 Isabella Roberts: there's this concept called resonance by Harmet Rosa. Resonance is essentially describing this kind of vibration or this resonant feeling 120 00:07:06,925 --> 00:07:09,110 that you can have between 121 00:07:09,910 --> 00:07:15,190 Isabella Roberts: participants when you sort of react and respond to each other, so that is one of these concepts that I'm really like 122 00:07:15,190 --> 00:07:17,110 bringing forward and looking to empirically test now. 123 00:07:17,750 --> 00:07:20,710 Isabella Roberts: But yeah, in terms of headline findings, I think one of 124 00:07:22,335 --> 00:07:28,095 Isabella Roberts: key results that's come out so far that's emerging from the survey data, and overall I've got about 75 125 00:07:28,095 --> 00:07:30,655 Isabella Roberts: participants and about 35 126 00:07:30,815 --> 00:07:37,623 Isabella Roberts: all the way through to a month post the festival, so I also sent a survey round to everyone one month after 127 00:07:37,623 --> 00:07:44,431 the festival to see any lasting impacts, but in terms of the 75 people that got involved with the actual session over 128 00:07:44,431 --> 00:07:45,231 both days, 129 00:07:45,690 --> 00:07:50,965 Isabella Roberts: one of the key findings was that they have a significant increase in shared identity. 130 00:07:51,445 --> 00:07:54,405 Isabella Roberts: So yes, sure, there was lots of sensations 131 00:07:54,405 --> 00:07:57,685 Isabella Roberts: of like feeling refreshed, buoyant, happy, smiling, 132 00:07:58,885 --> 00:08:04,480 Isabella Roberts: which links to this concept called kamma mouta and sort of intensity of bodily sensations, 133 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,360 Isabella Roberts: they also had to answer this question about shared identity by taking 134 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,960 Isabella Roberts: one diagram out of these options of like two circles progressively overlapping, 135 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:21,386 Isabella Roberts: so the first option, there's like sort of two circles quite far apart, and then the last option of like, you know, 136 00:08:21,386 --> 00:08:26,935 just complete merging of identity of oneself with the rest of the group is a sense of belonging essentially 137 00:08:26,935 --> 00:08:29,095 Isabella Roberts: is one circle within a bigger circle. 138 00:08:29,415 --> 00:08:30,215 Isabella Roberts: And 139 00:08:30,290 --> 00:08:32,210 Isabella Roberts: yeah, majority of participants 140 00:08:32,450 --> 00:08:33,970 Isabella Roberts: had a significant increase 141 00:08:34,370 --> 00:08:37,650 Isabella Roberts: from start of the session to the end of the session. So within one hour 142 00:08:37,970 --> 00:08:44,448 Isabella Roberts: of and it was also technically a bit less than an hour because the hour included filling out these surveys pre and 143 00:08:44,448 --> 00:08:46,215 post and consent forms, etc. Etc. 144 00:08:47,095 --> 00:08:49,415 Isabella Roberts: Being in that room, deliberating, 145 00:08:49,735 --> 00:08:51,735 Isabella Roberts: there was also some movement exercises. 146 00:08:51,975 --> 00:08:58,759 Isabella Roberts: This group of essentially strangers, a handful did come with friends, but essentially strangers had a real significant increase in 147 00:08:58,759 --> 00:09:02,490 a shared identity with other participants within less than an hour. 148 00:09:03,050 --> 00:09:05,210 Isabella Roberts: That is really important in terms of, 149 00:09:05,690 --> 00:09:10,010 Isabella Roberts: yeah, bridging divides and trying to bring people together in a polarized society. 150 00:09:10,815 --> 00:09:15,055 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. I I was wondering, like, this kind of experiment is, 151 00:09:16,495 --> 00:09:17,375 Alessandro Oppo: I would say, 152 00:09:21,055 --> 00:09:25,215 Alessandro Oppo: it's a sort of... I I think I haven't read about similar experiments. 153 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,560 Alessandro Oppo: So I was wondering if, you know, if there are, 154 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:30,960 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, other experiments, 155 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:32,880 Alessandro Oppo: maybe in places, 156 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:38,400 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, let's say institutional places or academic places where they do citizen assembly measuring 157 00:09:39,605 --> 00:09:40,805 Alessandro Oppo: biosensory 158 00:09:41,045 --> 00:09:41,845 Alessandro Oppo: data. 159 00:09:42,725 --> 00:09:47,365 Alessandro Oppo: It would be interesting to know, like, a sort of comparison between what 160 00:09:48,725 --> 00:09:50,165 Alessandro Oppo: happened when there are 161 00:09:50,805 --> 00:09:52,645 Alessandro Oppo: a certain kind of vibes. 162 00:09:54,590 --> 00:09:59,310 Alessandro Oppo: So we said that the the vibes changes a lot in comparison to the places. 163 00:09:59,870 --> 00:10:03,630 Alessandro Oppo: So I was wondering if you are aware of other similar experiments, 164 00:10:03,630 --> 00:10:04,430 Alessandro Oppo: let's say. 165 00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:08,270 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. No. Good question. There are some experiments 166 00:10:08,505 --> 00:10:16,319 Isabella Roberts: in a festival setting that just looks at sort of shared identity and collective participation in a festival setting, but then separate 167 00:10:16,319 --> 00:10:17,385 to deliberative democracy. 168 00:10:17,705 --> 00:10:23,578 Isabella Roberts: In terms of the deliberative events that, you know, I've been a part of and the other reports from other citizens assemblies 169 00:10:23,578 --> 00:10:25,180 in sort of UK and Europe, 170 00:10:25,740 --> 00:10:28,940 Isabella Roberts: yeah, definitely not hooking up to any biosensory 171 00:10:28,940 --> 00:10:35,100 Isabella Roberts: equipment, so they're not tracking bodily responses at all, but they do do participant surveys for sure, 172 00:10:35,660 --> 00:10:36,460 Isabella Roberts: mostly 173 00:10:36,985 --> 00:10:43,952 Isabella Roberts: asking questions about, yeah, enjoyment of the process, and that's usually quite high. So I think we already know that people enjoy 174 00:10:43,952 --> 00:10:44,752 the process, 175 00:10:45,465 --> 00:10:48,265 Isabella Roberts: but the more sort of specific questions around, 176 00:10:48,345 --> 00:10:49,720 Isabella Roberts: yeah, like belonging, 177 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:50,920 Isabella Roberts: shared identity, 178 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,080 Isabella Roberts: lasting impact, so actually they ask at the end of the process, but not many 179 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:02,600 Isabella Roberts: of the organizations will follow-up one month later to ask like, how are you still feeling? It's kind of like, you know, 180 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,335 job done, write up the report, now let's bring the outputs and recommendations 181 00:11:06,415 --> 00:11:09,615 Isabella Roberts: to the next level, and don't really tend to follow-up with participants 182 00:11:09,615 --> 00:11:14,655 Isabella Roberts: a month or some time later to ask how they feel, and I think that's important especially for, 183 00:11:14,975 --> 00:11:18,255 Isabella Roberts: you know, the ripple effects if we want this deliberative 184 00:11:18,255 --> 00:11:19,855 Isabella Roberts: movement to sort of grow and spread. 185 00:11:21,340 --> 00:11:26,380 Isabella Roberts: And then in terms of the biosensory data in general, there was actually one recent 186 00:11:26,860 --> 00:11:31,420 Isabella Roberts: study that looked at the physiological sensations and viewing artwork actually. 187 00:11:31,420 --> 00:11:36,925 Isabella Roberts: So similar equipment has been used to sense like, okay, how do people feel when they're like viewing 188 00:11:37,085 --> 00:11:44,671 Isabella Roberts: original pieces of artwork versus copies, and then that has impacts on, yeah, like the nervous system and sense of calm, relaxation, 189 00:11:44,671 --> 00:11:47,085 etc. So yeah, I'm really drawing from 190 00:11:47,550 --> 00:11:49,550 Isabella Roberts: various fields and 191 00:11:49,550 --> 00:11:52,270 Isabella Roberts: studies and applications to bring this project together, 192 00:11:52,510 --> 00:11:55,950 Isabella Roberts: and I do think it's yes, it's definitely something new in the 193 00:11:56,430 --> 00:11:58,030 Isabella Roberts: deliberative space. 194 00:11:58,430 --> 00:12:05,685 Isabella Roberts: I think the next phase though, when I want to look at comparing these sensations to deliberating in a VR or online 195 00:12:05,685 --> 00:12:06,485 environment, 196 00:12:06,175 --> 00:12:07,935 Isabella Roberts: there has been a couple of studies 197 00:12:08,335 --> 00:12:11,535 Isabella Roberts: of deliberative democracy or deliberations in VR. 198 00:12:12,735 --> 00:12:13,535 Isabella Roberts: But again, 199 00:12:13,695 --> 00:12:21,546 Isabella Roberts: not really looking at how people feel about it. They've just run some deliberations in VR, but not necessarily focusing on the 200 00:12:21,546 --> 00:12:22,346 participants feelings 201 00:12:22,740 --> 00:12:24,420 Isabella Roberts: and sensations about 202 00:12:24,740 --> 00:12:26,500 Isabella Roberts: the actual participation itself. 203 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:30,580 Alessandro Oppo: And I was thinking also about the difficult in 204 00:12:31,365 --> 00:12:32,245 Alessandro Oppo: analyzing 205 00:12:32,245 --> 00:12:34,325 Alessandro Oppo: the results because sometimes 206 00:12:36,005 --> 00:12:38,565 Alessandro Oppo: maybe you can produce a report, let's say, 207 00:12:39,365 --> 00:12:43,685 Alessandro Oppo: five minutes after the citizen assembly, you know, with AI and these kind of things. 208 00:12:44,570 --> 00:12:50,815 Alessandro Oppo: But then to really look at the outcomes, because as an example, it could be that some people become friends and after 209 00:12:50,815 --> 00:12:53,370 five years, maybe they organize as a political movement, 210 00:12:53,690 --> 00:12:57,290 Alessandro Oppo: but all of this is out of the view of the researcher. 211 00:12:58,815 --> 00:13:00,095 Alessandro Oppo: And so I was wondering 212 00:13:00,895 --> 00:13:02,815 Alessandro Oppo: what could be the next steps 213 00:13:02,895 --> 00:13:03,695 Alessandro Oppo: of... 214 00:13:06,415 --> 00:13:08,575 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. In how to find the... 215 00:13:09,375 --> 00:13:11,295 Alessandro Oppo: How all the process worked 216 00:13:11,535 --> 00:13:12,335 Alessandro Oppo: and 217 00:13:12,495 --> 00:13:13,295 Alessandro Oppo: how 218 00:13:13,860 --> 00:13:19,780 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, because you mentioned that these are some preliminary findings. So if you have in mind how 219 00:13:21,220 --> 00:13:23,300 Alessandro Oppo: to continue the research. 220 00:13:23,780 --> 00:13:29,853 Isabella Roberts: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. So, I mean, in my project or in my study so far, it has already 221 00:13:29,853 --> 00:13:30,653 shown that 222 00:13:31,445 --> 00:13:36,805 Isabella Roberts: the feelings in the body are and the intensity of the bodily sensations is more 223 00:13:37,045 --> 00:13:42,850 Isabella Roberts: of a greater indicator and tied to the lasting impact that the process had on people. 224 00:13:43,250 --> 00:13:48,370 Isabella Roberts: Yeah, based on the questions they asked, the results, and who responded a month later, and how they responded, and 225 00:13:48,770 --> 00:13:54,450 Isabella Roberts: you know that really just speaks to that saying. Think it was Renee Brown who said, you know, people always forget 226 00:13:54,755 --> 00:13:57,955 Isabella Roberts: what you say, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. 227 00:13:58,355 --> 00:14:03,853 Isabella Roberts: So that just shows that actually you might not remember exactly like facts, figures and names, but you just remember a feeling 228 00:14:03,853 --> 00:14:09,351 that you had when you were in that room or when you were talking with someone, right? The feeling or the vibes 229 00:14:09,351 --> 00:14:12,850 that someone gave you. So that's really what my research is really trying to 230 00:14:13,250 --> 00:14:16,690 Isabella Roberts: like measure and make real empirically and 231 00:14:18,130 --> 00:14:21,525 Isabella Roberts: yeah, something that we like to call, like, something called that the magic in the room 232 00:14:21,845 --> 00:14:23,525 Isabella Roberts: of deliberative processes 233 00:14:23,525 --> 00:14:28,485 Isabella Roberts: and making that corporeal. I think it's a really word I've just learned recently, 234 00:14:29,365 --> 00:14:34,900 Isabella Roberts: making something that's pretty abstract and intangible into something like real and measurable essentially. 235 00:14:34,980 --> 00:14:38,340 Isabella Roberts: But in terms of, you know, you touched on something there around, 236 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:44,389 Isabella Roberts: you know, lasting relationships and friendships of participants and like kind of tracking that, you know, post the event, and I think 237 00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:45,460 that is actually something 238 00:14:46,075 --> 00:14:47,755 Isabella Roberts: really, really valuable 239 00:14:47,755 --> 00:14:49,275 Isabella Roberts: and actually less. 240 00:14:50,715 --> 00:14:58,900 Isabella Roberts: Yeah, less done in this space. And it but it's so valuable because exactly it's memorable. It's also it's all around storytelling. 241 00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:00,760 And I think as humans, 242 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:01,880 Isabella Roberts: we remember 243 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,160 Isabella Roberts: and pass on knowledge and memory 244 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,320 Isabella Roberts: and inspiration through stories, right? Like intergenerational, 245 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,560 Isabella Roberts: we've been doing that for generations. 246 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:12,360 Isabella Roberts: So 247 00:15:12,575 --> 00:15:18,854 Isabella Roberts: and that's why the most famous one of the most famous stories of Fidelis' assemblies comes from that Irish assembly in the 248 00:15:18,854 --> 00:15:23,135 case of, is it Chris and Finbar, when it was a, you know, deeply homophobic 249 00:15:23,135 --> 00:15:23,935 Isabella Roberts: man, 250 00:15:24,415 --> 00:15:25,935 Isabella Roberts: actually changed his 251 00:15:26,415 --> 00:15:29,580 Isabella Roberts: view and his mind and opened his mind up to actually 252 00:15:29,740 --> 00:15:32,220 Isabella Roberts: agreeing with and accepting same sex marriage 253 00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:38,422 Isabella Roberts: when he heard the story of a gay man in that assembly directly face to face, know, heard of you know his 254 00:15:38,422 --> 00:15:39,222 struggles 255 00:15:38,940 --> 00:15:40,780 Isabella Roberts: throughout life and that 256 00:15:40,860 --> 00:15:42,700 Isabella Roberts: face to face empathy and storytelling 257 00:15:43,205 --> 00:15:47,445 Isabella Roberts: yeah, made made him change his mind about some really deeply held views, 258 00:15:47,605 --> 00:15:50,085 Isabella Roberts: and they did become friends. But that story 259 00:15:50,325 --> 00:15:55,125 Isabella Roberts: came out in a sort of journalistic article in some, you know, maybe some more local newspaper. 260 00:15:55,590 --> 00:16:02,456 Isabella Roberts: That's not necessarily something that's captured usually in the official or formal, like, Citizens Assembly reports. And I believe 261 00:16:02,456 --> 00:16:06,070 it really should. And actually, yeah, like, you know, during 262 00:16:06,390 --> 00:16:07,590 Isabella Roberts: each of these events 263 00:16:07,935 --> 00:16:14,611 Isabella Roberts: and even in the pre design and preparations, we should we should be really ready to capture these stories because this is 264 00:16:14,611 --> 00:16:16,735 what people remember and people can share 265 00:16:16,975 --> 00:16:23,583 Isabella Roberts: to again spread the message of citizens assemblies and why they're such a good thing and why they're one of the key 266 00:16:23,583 --> 00:16:28,690 instruments and models for bringing disparate groups of people together and yet again bridging divide in society. 267 00:16:29,650 --> 00:16:31,570 Isabella Roberts: And I think one key reason why 268 00:16:31,970 --> 00:16:36,714 Isabella Roberts: it hasn't happened so far, to be honest, on a practical level, is it's pretty much to do with budget, you know, 269 00:16:36,714 --> 00:16:37,514 like 270 00:16:37,705 --> 00:16:39,785 Isabella Roberts: delivery organizations are commissioned 271 00:16:39,945 --> 00:16:42,905 Isabella Roberts: to deliver this event, write a report at the end of it. 272 00:16:43,465 --> 00:16:45,705 Isabella Roberts: And so if we pre 273 00:16:46,105 --> 00:16:53,724 Isabella Roberts: design in the budget and include in the budget at the beginning, okay, like that we want to have this follow-up post 274 00:16:53,724 --> 00:16:54,524 comms 275 00:16:54,070 --> 00:16:59,270 Isabella Roberts: sort of community building and sharing of the message of what came out of the Citizens Assembly, 276 00:16:59,990 --> 00:17:07,004 Isabella Roberts: that would make us much better prepared and make sure that we don't just let the event and all the amazing things 277 00:17:07,004 --> 00:17:14,017 and transformations that happened in it to just fizzle out. Yeah. I also really like citizen assembly as a as a tool 278 00:17:14,017 --> 00:17:14,817 because compared 279 00:17:15,535 --> 00:17:19,535 Alessandro Oppo: to the different civic tech tools, I mean, every tool 280 00:17:19,855 --> 00:17:21,215 Alessandro Oppo: and every practice has, 281 00:17:22,530 --> 00:17:24,770 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, its own reason to exist. 282 00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:32,290 Alessandro Oppo: But I really appreciate when people can talk to each other, let's say, in real life. And then technology, 283 00:17:33,090 --> 00:17:34,610 Alessandro Oppo: it's a sort of assistant 284 00:17:35,555 --> 00:17:38,355 Alessandro Oppo: and not really the entity we have to deal with. 285 00:17:39,395 --> 00:17:40,195 Alessandro Oppo: And 286 00:17:40,515 --> 00:17:44,915 Alessandro Oppo: I I was wondering, like, because of your experiment with citizen assemblies, 287 00:17:45,235 --> 00:17:46,035 Alessandro Oppo: if you... 288 00:17:48,610 --> 00:17:51,650 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know. On one side, if you have any criticism 289 00:17:51,890 --> 00:17:53,330 Alessandro Oppo: about how the... 290 00:17:55,250 --> 00:18:02,366 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know if you think that maybe something different should be done as an example. I don't know. Running citizen assembly 291 00:18:02,366 --> 00:18:06,895 in places with good vibes. So it could be like a park instead of, 292 00:18:07,935 --> 00:18:10,735 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, a room inside the municipality office 293 00:18:12,655 --> 00:18:16,175 Alessandro Oppo: or something else, like if you have any thoughts about this. 294 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,560 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Love that. And I'm sorry if if there's any change of 295 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,760 Isabella Roberts: location and sound in the background because I'm just getting bitten to death by my cusky puppy 296 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,640 Isabella Roberts: and hoping he doesn't continue. 297 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,000 Isabella Roberts: But that's a really good that's a really good point, really good idea. And actually, 298 00:18:32,775 --> 00:18:34,295 Isabella Roberts: where physically 299 00:18:34,695 --> 00:18:39,335 Isabella Roberts: hosting something like a sitting Sunday in a park or a festival is 300 00:18:40,055 --> 00:18:41,415 Isabella Roberts: okay, is 301 00:18:41,655 --> 00:18:43,175 Isabella Roberts: less practical 302 00:18:43,815 --> 00:18:49,175 Isabella Roberts: in person. That is something I would love to recreate in 303 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:53,547 Isabella Roberts: the VR phase of the next part of my study. And yeah, anyone watching on the video can see my husky pup 304 00:18:53,547 --> 00:18:54,880 bear make a little cameo. 305 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:02,219 Isabella Roberts: So I yeah, I think I think the environment and the space, as you say, as you already intuitively picked up on, 306 00:19:02,219 --> 00:19:06,915 is super important for the sort of, yeah, this magic in the room, the gelling and the connection 307 00:19:07,155 --> 00:19:11,075 Isabella Roberts: and just those feel good vibes of like the participants actually coming together. 308 00:19:11,315 --> 00:19:16,515 Isabella Roberts: You know, I've definitely been in some rooms or venues or forums where, you know, it's maybe 309 00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:24,064 Isabella Roberts: it's quite clinical, it's quite grey, it's not it's the opposite of warm, you know, and also the acoustics really matter, like 310 00:19:24,064 --> 00:19:29,190 people struggling to hear what speakers are saying in the back of the room, things are echoing, 311 00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:34,825 Isabella Roberts: and all these things to do with physical space. Again, yeah, that is definitely criticism that I don't think that is really 312 00:19:36,185 --> 00:19:40,825 Isabella Roberts: prepared or designed much for in advance. But I think also again on a practical level, 313 00:19:41,145 --> 00:19:44,185 Isabella Roberts: because until you have the 50 participants in the room, 314 00:19:44,585 --> 00:19:49,357 Isabella Roberts: how can you like test for that? You know, unless you get, you know, 50 staff members to just fill out the 315 00:19:49,357 --> 00:19:54,129 room and be like, can you hear that in the back? So I think there's a lot of stuff that is unfortunately 316 00:19:54,129 --> 00:19:54,929 just by the 317 00:19:57,100 --> 00:20:01,180 Isabella Roberts: way things go has to be left for that moment in time. 318 00:20:02,375 --> 00:20:06,055 Isabella Roberts: So yeah, there's a lot of things to do with the physical space 319 00:20:08,055 --> 00:20:09,735 Isabella Roberts: that I would improve with 320 00:20:09,895 --> 00:20:13,815 Isabella Roberts: the citizens' assembly process to just basically make the experience 321 00:20:14,380 --> 00:20:16,460 Isabella Roberts: better from an embodied perspective. 322 00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:22,620 Isabella Roberts: But otherwise, there's there's a few more just more general criticisms of citizens assembly model 323 00:20:23,980 --> 00:20:25,660 Isabella Roberts: that I could say as well. 324 00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:31,745 Isabella Roberts: If at the end of the day, we want them to come up with, you know, good decisions and better 325 00:20:32,385 --> 00:20:38,333 Isabella Roberts: decisions. And that's one of the main criticisms from the outside. You know, how can you trust ordinary people to make decisions 326 00:20:38,333 --> 00:20:40,225 on your behalf? Obviously my argument or 327 00:20:40,785 --> 00:20:43,745 Isabella Roberts: rebuttal there would just be like, well, do you think these politicians are 328 00:20:43,905 --> 00:20:45,025 Isabella Roberts: any much more knowledgeable? 329 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:51,240 Isabella Roberts: It's all about lived experience. It's all about being able to listen and listen to each other and yeah, 330 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,480 Isabella Roberts: come together for this collective decision making. But there is something around 331 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,000 Isabella Roberts: knowledge management of the process. So like all the, 332 00:20:59,675 --> 00:21:01,195 Isabella Roberts: all the inputs 333 00:21:02,155 --> 00:21:05,435 Isabella Roberts: that come from the participants, everything that comes from the experts, 334 00:21:05,915 --> 00:21:09,115 Isabella Roberts: there's something around the actual, like maybe the note taking 335 00:21:10,155 --> 00:21:11,675 Isabella Roberts: and the transference 336 00:21:11,580 --> 00:21:18,339 Isabella Roberts: of what participants are saying and contributing to this discussion and what actually comes out at the other end. That funnel of 337 00:21:18,339 --> 00:21:25,098 knowledge management, I think needs closer and needs a closer look at. And that's from my experience of doing a couple of 338 00:21:25,098 --> 00:21:30,935 independent evaluations now, you know, because especially if there's no digital tools actually being used to record people's voices, 339 00:21:31,255 --> 00:21:34,375 Isabella Roberts: and you've just got these like small tables and a facilitator 340 00:21:34,375 --> 00:21:35,895 Isabella Roberts: like furiously 341 00:21:35,975 --> 00:21:37,815 Isabella Roberts: scribbling down loads of notes, 342 00:21:37,975 --> 00:21:43,869 Isabella Roberts: there's a lot that gets leaked, right, From what have been said around the table and what's actually ended up on those 343 00:21:43,869 --> 00:21:46,280 scribbled notes. And then those notes are then consolidated 344 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,400 Isabella Roberts: by hand or by the facilitators in person 345 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,865 Isabella Roberts: to come to the final summarized 346 00:21:52,945 --> 00:22:00,065 Isabella Roberts: sort of report or output there. And again, there's all these tools now, even if it's a simple mp3 transcription tool, 347 00:22:00,385 --> 00:22:01,345 Isabella Roberts: there are a 348 00:22:01,505 --> 00:22:07,150 Isabella Roberts: suite of Delibertech tools that you know you're aware of working with for the Safe to LiveTech project, for example. 349 00:22:07,390 --> 00:22:10,830 Isabella Roberts: So yeah, these tools exist. They don't cost much because you know they 350 00:22:11,150 --> 00:22:14,990 Isabella Roberts: have their heart in the right place as well and even in their startups they're much more willing 351 00:22:15,790 --> 00:22:22,845 Isabella Roberts: to be applied for free or near cost basis. It's just about, yeah, these facilitators or delivery organizations 352 00:22:22,845 --> 00:22:26,525 Isabella Roberts: to open up to these tools and kind of, 353 00:22:27,485 --> 00:22:31,645 Isabella Roberts: yeah, not so swallow their pride, but just be open to 354 00:22:32,125 --> 00:22:34,930 Isabella Roberts: adopt this new technology and not be 355 00:22:35,490 --> 00:22:36,290 Isabella Roberts: too 356 00:22:36,770 --> 00:22:42,427 Isabella Roberts: scared or anxious about it because we need to, yeah, evolve or die, basically. And I think that would really help with 357 00:22:42,427 --> 00:22:43,970 the knowledge management of these processes. 358 00:22:45,645 --> 00:22:49,165 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. I I think we should not be scared about experimenting 359 00:22:49,485 --> 00:22:50,365 Alessandro Oppo: in the... 360 00:22:50,685 --> 00:22:51,725 Alessandro Oppo: In this field 361 00:22:52,605 --> 00:22:56,365 Alessandro Oppo: because many times I I ask myself why people participate 362 00:22:56,365 --> 00:23:00,680 Alessandro Oppo: or they or why people do not participate in their political 363 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,520 Alessandro Oppo: social life. 364 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:03,880 Alessandro Oppo: And, 365 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,040 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, I think we should find, like, 366 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,000 Alessandro Oppo: the the best way so that people feel engaged and also they feel like 367 00:23:11,345 --> 00:23:17,025 Alessandro Oppo: they're doing something that they like. So I don't know, meeting new people, talking to people. 368 00:23:17,905 --> 00:23:18,705 Alessandro Oppo: And 369 00:23:19,185 --> 00:23:25,239 Alessandro Oppo: and, yeah, before you mentioned also the SAFE project and because I know that you also work on other projects. So if 370 00:23:25,239 --> 00:23:26,065 you'd like to 371 00:23:27,390 --> 00:23:28,830 Alessandro Oppo: to tell us something. 372 00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:30,270 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Sure. 373 00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:38,657 Isabella Roberts: So SAFE, it's got two a's. It's an acronym. So s double a f e. That stands for space for silent contemplation 374 00:23:38,657 --> 00:23:39,457 and reflection, 375 00:23:39,790 --> 00:23:41,390 Isabella Roberts: active listening and feeling heard, 376 00:23:41,805 --> 00:23:49,432 Isabella Roberts: ability to change one's mind, feeling connected as part of a whole, and then E is epistemic growth, epistemic humility, and these 377 00:23:49,432 --> 00:23:51,165 are the safe principles that 378 00:23:51,725 --> 00:23:56,045 Isabella Roberts: I've been working on and actually co developing with a handful of Delebtech 379 00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:57,350 Isabella Roberts: developers, 380 00:23:57,350 --> 00:24:01,670 Isabella Roberts: so the founders of these Delebtech tools such as Deliberate, Dembrain, 381 00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:04,710 Isabella Roberts: the Stanford deliberation platform, and also another one called PSI, 382 00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:06,630 Isabella Roberts: PSI. 383 00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:10,150 Isabella Roberts: We've got a handful of them together alongside 384 00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:11,270 Isabella Roberts: about five 385 00:24:11,955 --> 00:24:16,275 Isabella Roberts: democratic practitioners or facilitators also from across UK, Europe, US, 386 00:24:17,075 --> 00:24:24,555 Isabella Roberts: to get involved in a series of workshops last year, through each of those SAFE principles in turn, and just really going 387 00:24:24,555 --> 00:24:25,355 into detail 388 00:24:25,475 --> 00:24:26,995 Isabella Roberts: in ninety minute workshops, 389 00:24:27,850 --> 00:24:33,370 Isabella Roberts: as well with post surveys, etc, as to, okay, you know, why exactly is 390 00:24:33,610 --> 00:24:37,050 Isabella Roberts: space, persona, contemplation, reflection, important in deliberation? 391 00:24:37,450 --> 00:24:43,712 Isabella Roberts: How do each of these tools currently allow for that? And I think that first principle is quite difficult already to even 392 00:24:43,712 --> 00:24:49,975 think unless you'd use like a pause button or because especially in a world where, yeah, all these digital innovations or civic 393 00:24:49,975 --> 00:24:53,675 tech is all about speeding up processes, making them more efficient, you know, 394 00:24:54,560 --> 00:25:01,120 Isabella Roberts: Technology is essentially making everything fast forward, right? So this first principle of like silent interpolation, 395 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:06,000 Isabella Roberts: reflection, pause, taking breaks, space for silence is actually kind of reversing that trend. 396 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,440 Isabella Roberts: And that's why these are also called human centered principles because, 397 00:25:10,015 --> 00:25:13,775 Isabella Roberts: yeah, I believe that actually doing things slowly, slowing down, 398 00:25:14,175 --> 00:25:14,975 Isabella Roberts: pausing, 399 00:25:15,055 --> 00:25:22,498 Isabella Roberts: reflecting and meditating is a very conscious thing that like only humans can do and not AI. So that's why these safe 400 00:25:22,498 --> 00:25:24,190 principles are super important when 401 00:25:24,190 --> 00:25:28,190 Isabella Roberts: we're adopting more of these AI powered DulipTech tools, 402 00:25:28,750 --> 00:25:32,190 Isabella Roberts: especially when they're being adopted to scale and speed up processes. 403 00:25:32,670 --> 00:25:38,415 Isabella Roberts: We want to make sure that, okay, if we scale and speed up these processes, how can we retain the humanness, 404 00:25:38,735 --> 00:25:44,862 Isabella Roberts: all that stuff that we've just been talking about, about the human interaction, human connection, how can we still retain that even 405 00:25:44,862 --> 00:25:46,255 though we're using these tools 406 00:25:46,735 --> 00:25:48,575 Isabella Roberts: online or in hybrid processes? 407 00:25:49,790 --> 00:25:52,350 Isabella Roberts: And to be honest that's why, so I did that last year. 408 00:25:52,830 --> 00:25:56,270 Isabella Roberts: It also came from my Masters for Digital Politics Masters, as I mentioned, 409 00:25:56,750 --> 00:26:00,190 Isabella Roberts: that was I guess a couple years prior, so it has been this kind of progression, 410 00:26:01,235 --> 00:26:05,555 Isabella Roberts: you know, of my personal journey as well as how the world's been moving and changing. 411 00:26:06,515 --> 00:26:13,861 Isabella Roberts: And I would say that the PhD project I'm focusing on now with like embodiment, magic in a room, this Boomtown festival 412 00:26:13,861 --> 00:26:14,661 study 413 00:26:14,450 --> 00:26:20,940 Isabella Roberts: is probably really drawing or lifting specifically the F of SAFE, so like feeling connected as part of the whole, like that's 414 00:26:20,940 --> 00:26:27,430 maybe like the main principle that I'm now taking forward into this next phase of my work and study. But yeah, SAFE 415 00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:33,625 to LiveTech is still is still out there. It's still there. It's still alive. You know, it's open to be refined 416 00:26:33,785 --> 00:26:35,065 Isabella Roberts: the more it gets 417 00:26:35,385 --> 00:26:37,465 Isabella Roberts: applied and the feedback that we get. 418 00:26:37,865 --> 00:26:40,585 Isabella Roberts: So the website is there, like the diliptech.com, 419 00:26:40,825 --> 00:26:44,265 Isabella Roberts: and essentially, yeah, any of these deliberative processes that wanna use 420 00:26:44,910 --> 00:26:46,910 Isabella Roberts: any of these DeliTech tools, 421 00:26:47,150 --> 00:26:52,832 Isabella Roberts: just get in touch, and then we can help at the design phase of, like, how to ensure that when we're using 422 00:26:52,832 --> 00:26:56,190 these tools in these processes, like, to use them in a safe way. 423 00:26:56,925 --> 00:27:00,125 Alessandro Oppo: I I think you touched an important point that 424 00:27:00,525 --> 00:27:01,325 Alessandro Oppo: it is, 425 00:27:02,045 --> 00:27:03,325 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, collaboration 426 00:27:03,645 --> 00:27:07,085 Alessandro Oppo: in the civic tech field or political tech field. 427 00:27:07,485 --> 00:27:08,285 Alessandro Oppo: And... 428 00:27:08,860 --> 00:27:10,780 Alessandro Oppo: Because there is a lot of collaboration 429 00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:15,820 Alessandro Oppo: at the... But at the same time, maybe we could also collaborate even more. 430 00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:16,940 Alessandro Oppo: So 431 00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:19,740 Alessandro Oppo: what are your thoughts and experience 432 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:21,420 Alessandro Oppo: in relation to this? 433 00:27:22,195 --> 00:27:25,955 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. No. That's... Yeah. Thanks for picking up on that, Alessandro, because 434 00:27:26,275 --> 00:27:32,215 Isabella Roberts: for sure, like, in the tech space, usually, it's very competitive. Right? It's very, like, cutthroat, dog eat dog kind of world 435 00:27:32,215 --> 00:27:33,015 out there. 436 00:27:33,075 --> 00:27:40,050 Isabella Roberts: But, yeah, from the start, you know, the Delibertech tools that I convened for this safe danibtech project, super 437 00:27:40,210 --> 00:27:41,170 Isabella Roberts: collaborative, 438 00:27:41,250 --> 00:27:45,410 Isabella Roberts: super cooperative, very open and transparent, you know, they're each giving 439 00:27:45,810 --> 00:27:46,610 Isabella Roberts: demonstrations 440 00:27:46,610 --> 00:27:53,742 Isabella Roberts: of features and maybe upcoming features, beta features that they know that's still in the works and sharing that with other tools 441 00:27:53,742 --> 00:27:54,715 that, you know, 442 00:27:55,195 --> 00:27:57,035 Isabella Roberts: essentially or ultimately are 443 00:27:57,435 --> 00:27:59,275 Isabella Roberts: somewhat in competition with them. 444 00:28:00,155 --> 00:28:05,835 Isabella Roberts: But actually, it's about leaning into each other's strengths, giving feedback that helps the wider cause. 445 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:13,004 Isabella Roberts: And actually, there's nothing to say, and this also came up during workshops, that there's nothing to say that a single process 446 00:28:13,004 --> 00:28:19,048 can use more than one of these tools at the same time for different phases that suit it best. So, you know, 447 00:28:19,048 --> 00:28:21,520 for example, deliberate could be the sort of background 448 00:28:21,905 --> 00:28:23,505 Isabella Roberts: backend operational, 449 00:28:23,665 --> 00:28:29,746 Isabella Roberts: just dashboard that helps to like store most of the files and the notes, and it's basically used mostly by the facilitators 450 00:28:29,746 --> 00:28:35,828 of the process. And then Dembrane is the one that's more front end on the table, listening to participants and feeding in 451 00:28:35,828 --> 00:28:37,210 all the inputs and contributions 452 00:28:37,290 --> 00:28:40,490 Isabella Roberts: of participants into that backend dashboard that deliberate 453 00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:41,290 Isabella Roberts: is 454 00:28:41,530 --> 00:28:44,650 Isabella Roberts: operating. So, no, it was really it was very, very 455 00:28:45,210 --> 00:28:50,500 Isabella Roberts: conducive and positive in that sense, you know, but then I guess as the years have gone on, I mean, it's probably 456 00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:55,789 like a year and a bit now since those workshops and since we've been we used to catch up monthly again, that's 457 00:28:55,789 --> 00:28:58,915 kind of fizzled off now as we've all moved on to different things. 458 00:28:59,635 --> 00:29:01,075 Isabella Roberts: And we've still got a group chat there, 459 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,440 Isabella Roberts: you know, but when there was like some seldom 460 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:11,157 Isabella Roberts: funding grants, I think maybe earlier this year, you know, we just share these opportunities with each other and kind of catch 461 00:29:11,157 --> 00:29:15,680 up as well. Like, oh, how did everyone do? Did anyone get it? You know, so it's still very 462 00:29:16,425 --> 00:29:18,825 Isabella Roberts: the attitude is still very collaborative, 463 00:29:18,825 --> 00:29:19,625 Isabella Roberts: but maybe 464 00:29:19,705 --> 00:29:25,299 Isabella Roberts: it's just fizzled out at the moment in time because, know, at the end of the day, you need someone like aka 465 00:29:25,299 --> 00:29:26,825 me or someone else to keep 466 00:29:26,825 --> 00:29:31,705 Isabella Roberts: that group together and keep that glue together. But unless you have a 467 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:38,200 Isabella Roberts: active community manager in that sense, people just end up going off and doing their own things. But it was a really, 468 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,000 Isabella Roberts: yeah, really inspiring sort of 469 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,360 Isabella Roberts: effort from all of them I would say, and 470 00:29:44,745 --> 00:29:48,025 Isabella Roberts: hopefully, I don't know if there's any other initiatives similar, 471 00:29:48,905 --> 00:29:49,705 Isabella Roberts: but 472 00:29:49,785 --> 00:29:54,665 Isabella Roberts: I hope that that kind of, yeah, approach continues with the other with the other tools. 473 00:29:55,305 --> 00:29:56,105 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. 474 00:29:56,505 --> 00:29:57,305 Alessandro Oppo: And 475 00:29:58,070 --> 00:30:00,550 Alessandro Oppo: I remember also the anti party project 476 00:30:01,270 --> 00:30:02,710 Alessandro Oppo: that is Oh, yeah. 477 00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:04,070 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. 478 00:30:05,270 --> 00:30:06,550 Alessandro Oppo: If you'd like to 479 00:30:07,190 --> 00:30:08,950 Alessandro Oppo: tell us something because... 480 00:30:10,595 --> 00:30:13,795 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah, I mean, I could say something, but it's better if you say something 481 00:30:13,955 --> 00:30:14,835 Alessandro Oppo: by yourself. 482 00:30:15,155 --> 00:30:20,132 Isabella Roberts: Oh, yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, if you... Yeah. If you wanna... What you... I know you have thoughts about political 483 00:30:20,132 --> 00:30:21,715 parties and everything. So if you wanna 484 00:30:22,275 --> 00:30:26,830 Isabella Roberts: start with your angle and I'll see how Ants Party can fit into it maybe. Yeah. 485 00:30:27,310 --> 00:30:28,830 Alessandro Oppo: I mean... Yeah. Because 486 00:30:29,550 --> 00:30:31,310 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, now technology 487 00:30:31,470 --> 00:30:32,270 Alessandro Oppo: is 488 00:30:33,390 --> 00:30:34,590 Alessandro Oppo: being used by, 489 00:30:35,150 --> 00:30:37,185 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, most of the people. 490 00:30:37,905 --> 00:30:40,705 Alessandro Oppo: And we can see society, institutions, 491 00:30:41,425 --> 00:30:42,945 Alessandro Oppo: politics that in 492 00:30:43,265 --> 00:30:49,265 Alessandro Oppo: both in an informal way. So people just... I don't know, politician use WhatsApp or 493 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,280 Alessandro Oppo: another tool to communicate. 494 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,720 Alessandro Oppo: And also from, let's say, formal point of view, we see digitalization 495 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,960 Alessandro Oppo: happening all around society, 496 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:01,640 Alessandro Oppo: digital transformation. 497 00:31:02,695 --> 00:31:03,495 Alessandro Oppo: And, 498 00:31:03,815 --> 00:31:05,495 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, technology now 499 00:31:05,895 --> 00:31:08,615 Alessandro Oppo: could allow a lot of people to 500 00:31:09,415 --> 00:31:10,215 Alessandro Oppo: discuss, 501 00:31:10,295 --> 00:31:11,095 Alessandro Oppo: decide. 502 00:31:13,015 --> 00:31:19,519 Alessandro Oppo: And so it is possible now to do what it was not possible to do, let's say ten years ago or twenty 503 00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:20,319 years ago. 504 00:31:20,590 --> 00:31:23,630 Alessandro Oppo: And so I was... Yeah. Many times I thought about 505 00:31:24,670 --> 00:31:26,430 Alessandro Oppo: how political parties 506 00:31:26,430 --> 00:31:29,870 Alessandro Oppo: could evolve or maybe we don't need political parties. 507 00:31:30,655 --> 00:31:34,735 Alessandro Oppo: You can just have citizens that communicate with institutions. 508 00:31:36,255 --> 00:31:37,055 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. 509 00:31:37,215 --> 00:31:38,015 Alessandro Oppo: But 510 00:31:38,015 --> 00:31:41,615 Alessandro Oppo: all of this is... All of those are, let's say, open questions, 511 00:31:42,335 --> 00:31:43,615 Alessandro Oppo: and they don't have 512 00:31:45,450 --> 00:31:47,050 Alessandro Oppo: clear thoughts about it. 513 00:31:47,370 --> 00:31:51,370 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, I have some thoughts. Mhmm. But, yeah, I was curious about yours one. 514 00:31:51,770 --> 00:31:56,490 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. And I'm just trying to find the stat now because you picked up on it. So I think it's... 515 00:31:57,050 --> 00:32:01,905 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. So a survey of over 1,000,000 people showed that only 1.9% 516 00:32:02,225 --> 00:32:05,825 Isabella Roberts: of these one over 1,000,000 people, only 1.9% 517 00:32:05,825 --> 00:32:11,714 Isabella Roberts: chose policies that fit within a single political party. So that's in The UK. I know you're based in Italy, so it's 518 00:32:11,714 --> 00:32:12,785 a bit different, but 519 00:32:13,265 --> 00:32:16,385 Isabella Roberts: yeah, within The UK, you know, party membership is down, 520 00:32:17,070 --> 00:32:22,110 Isabella Roberts: people's policy preferences don't even fit into a single party, we have a voting system that 521 00:32:22,510 --> 00:32:28,510 Isabella Roberts: spits out this, you know, two party result each time, it's a pendulum swinging each election essentially. 522 00:32:30,575 --> 00:32:35,775 Isabella Roberts: It's totally, yeah, it's totally defunct, and so that's why I created this movement called anti party, 523 00:32:36,735 --> 00:32:40,415 Isabella Roberts: which ruffled a few feathers even in the beginning. I think people were just so 524 00:32:40,655 --> 00:32:45,135 Isabella Roberts: even at just anything that's like anti or whatever, like can also 525 00:32:45,610 --> 00:32:46,410 Isabella Roberts: create 526 00:32:46,890 --> 00:32:51,930 Isabella Roberts: quite strong reactions interestingly enough, but then even people who or groups that 527 00:32:52,090 --> 00:32:55,050 Isabella Roberts: say that they're apolitical or nonpartisan, 528 00:32:56,090 --> 00:33:02,824 Isabella Roberts: and I would have thought that anti party is within the same category, but apparently not. Still, we were still kind of 529 00:33:02,824 --> 00:33:03,624 sidelined 530 00:33:02,225 --> 00:33:03,425 Isabella Roberts: from those 531 00:33:03,425 --> 00:33:10,465 Isabella Roberts: groups. But it's yeah, what you just said as well about if citizens can make all our decisions directly through all these 532 00:33:10,465 --> 00:33:13,665 platforms that's available now, all these digital tools that's available, 533 00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:18,020 Isabella Roberts: convening and collectively deciding with 534 00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:20,580 Isabella Roberts: models such as citizens' assemblies. 535 00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:25,860 Isabella Roberts: It's very, very possible, and I totally believe in that vision and that's 536 00:33:25,860 --> 00:33:31,705 Isabella Roberts: the decisive system change I'm working towards. Think I one of the key hurdles, though, is really just raising awareness of what 537 00:33:31,705 --> 00:33:35,425 else is possible, you know, and again in The UK, there was that recent 538 00:33:35,905 --> 00:33:37,105 Isabella Roberts: poll that was 539 00:33:37,505 --> 00:33:44,481 Isabella Roberts: it was since been kind of picked apart, but the headline at the time before it was picked apart was that majority 540 00:33:44,481 --> 00:33:48,920 of Gen Z preferred dictatorship to a democracy. And that's because in that survey, 541 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:50,520 Isabella Roberts: the alternative 542 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,400 Isabella Roberts: to what they defined as democracy, which is simply 543 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,960 Isabella Roberts: the voting for the next politician model, 544 00:33:56,695 --> 00:34:02,633 Isabella Roberts: of course, they're going to pick a dictatorship because they're like, they're so fed up with the current system, the current way 545 00:34:02,633 --> 00:34:08,571 things are, that they think the only other alternative is a is a benevolent dictator. And it's like, well, actually, there's a 546 00:34:08,571 --> 00:34:10,460 few other things in between that, aka 547 00:34:10,540 --> 00:34:14,700 Isabella Roberts: deliberative democracy, the citizens' assembly model. But if people don't know that, 548 00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:19,180 Isabella Roberts: they're not going to know to pick it. And then the survey, which is also very prescriptive 549 00:34:19,180 --> 00:34:23,500 Isabella Roberts: in the options it gives you, right? That's why things like voting, referendum, 550 00:34:23,935 --> 00:34:25,775 Isabella Roberts: I think are very blunt tools, 551 00:34:26,095 --> 00:34:32,255 Isabella Roberts: because they only give you set prescribed options, whereas in a citizen's assembly, it's open, it's generative, 552 00:34:32,735 --> 00:34:34,655 Isabella Roberts: anything can emerge in that space, 553 00:34:34,815 --> 00:34:39,310 Isabella Roberts: and it's a much more safe and controlled space in terms of the information and the environment 554 00:34:39,310 --> 00:34:40,430 Isabella Roberts: that you're 555 00:34:40,430 --> 00:34:42,270 Isabella Roberts: deliberating and deciding within. 556 00:34:42,590 --> 00:34:43,790 Isabella Roberts: Apart from, 557 00:34:44,030 --> 00:34:50,110 Isabella Roberts: again, which is different to the Wild West that we're currently in normally day to day with social media, fake news, algorithms, 558 00:34:50,655 --> 00:34:54,415 Isabella Roberts: and that's the current Wild West information environment that we're currently doing 559 00:34:55,055 --> 00:34:58,335 Isabella Roberts: making decisions on referendum and voting. So 560 00:34:58,815 --> 00:35:02,575 Isabella Roberts: people need to be aware that these alternative models exist in the first instance. 561 00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:09,436 Isabella Roberts: So yeah, think it's down to the whole space really to just spread that to spread that awareness. And I think, know, 562 00:35:09,436 --> 00:35:10,740 for me, like a key 563 00:35:11,060 --> 00:35:17,160 Isabella Roberts: key indicator of success of, like, all the work and research that I'm doing is that just if the average person off 564 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:23,259 the street, taxi driver, someone I meet if in the smoking area of a bar or whatever knows what a citizen assembly 565 00:35:23,259 --> 00:35:24,645 is and they are really 566 00:35:25,045 --> 00:35:31,572 Isabella Roberts: keen to take part in one sometime. To me that would be that would mean, okay, great. We're finally living in a 567 00:35:31,572 --> 00:35:32,372 world where 568 00:35:33,380 --> 00:35:38,020 Isabella Roberts: this alternative and I think better system is is really becoming a reality. 569 00:35:38,580 --> 00:35:40,260 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. And before 570 00:35:40,740 --> 00:35:48,495 Alessandro Oppo: when your dog wanted to say something, I can suppose I can imagine that he wanted to participate in the conversation. 571 00:35:48,895 --> 00:35:50,415 Alessandro Oppo: It made me think about 572 00:35:50,895 --> 00:35:53,935 Alessandro Oppo: an interview I made to Alicia Kaziragi, 573 00:35:53,935 --> 00:35:55,215 Alessandro Oppo: that is a professor 574 00:35:56,175 --> 00:35:57,215 Alessandro Oppo: in Milano. 575 00:35:57,775 --> 00:35:58,655 Alessandro Oppo: And 576 00:35:59,790 --> 00:36:03,950 Alessandro Oppo: I don't remember exactly, but I remember she was saying something about 577 00:36:04,750 --> 00:36:07,790 Alessandro Oppo: maybe we should also include animals in the conversation 578 00:36:08,190 --> 00:36:09,870 Alessandro Oppo: about what they want. 579 00:36:10,670 --> 00:36:12,110 Alessandro Oppo: Mhmm. Like in the... 580 00:36:12,590 --> 00:36:16,935 Alessandro Oppo: And of course, we cannot ask them to participate in a citizen assembly, 581 00:36:17,975 --> 00:36:22,855 Alessandro Oppo: but maybe there are ways to, let's say, involve them in the political life 582 00:36:24,535 --> 00:36:29,655 Alessandro Oppo: because it happened many times that in history that we do not include a group of people 583 00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:33,260 Alessandro Oppo: in the decisions. So it could be people with a different 584 00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:36,860 Alessandro Oppo: color of the skin, could be 585 00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:39,900 Alessandro Oppo: different religious group, or it could be... 586 00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:42,700 Alessandro Oppo: It happened the same with women. And so 587 00:36:43,585 --> 00:36:46,225 Alessandro Oppo: maybe in the future, we will include those animals 588 00:36:46,465 --> 00:36:48,385 Alessandro Oppo: and we will ask their Yeah. 589 00:36:48,945 --> 00:36:50,145 Alessandro Oppo: Sort of feedback 590 00:36:50,305 --> 00:36:51,105 Alessandro Oppo: from 591 00:36:51,585 --> 00:36:52,465 Alessandro Oppo: from them. 592 00:36:53,905 --> 00:36:54,705 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. 593 00:36:54,720 --> 00:37:00,960 Isabella Roberts: That yeah, that would be really cute. I mean, there's a there is a conversation about sort of non human, 594 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,040 Isabella Roberts: including the non human into, 595 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,280 Isabella Roberts: yeah, deliberative democracy or in the in the new democracy, 596 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,715 Isabella Roberts: and that includes, you know, things like rivers and natural 597 00:37:11,755 --> 00:37:15,435 Isabella Roberts: phenomena as well, so like whether it's like rivers and trees and things. 598 00:37:16,635 --> 00:37:22,155 Isabella Roberts: I mean, yeah, and like you say, even within humans, there's been groups that's been excluded, there's languages that 599 00:37:22,555 --> 00:37:24,820 Isabella Roberts: are also potentially excluded, 600 00:37:24,820 --> 00:37:26,420 Isabella Roberts: so there is a lot of criteria 601 00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:32,260 Isabella Roberts: to even communicate smoothly amongst smoothly and fully and accessibly 602 00:37:32,260 --> 00:37:36,900 Isabella Roberts: and fully, right, between the same species of us humans. So I mean, 603 00:37:37,495 --> 00:37:44,926 Isabella Roberts: yeah, I mean, I smile and obviously I'm an animal lover and I do also love nature. So on a theoretical level, 604 00:37:44,926 --> 00:37:49,655 like absolutely would love to do that. But do I trust humans to translate 605 00:37:49,820 --> 00:37:53,020 Isabella Roberts: these non human sort of messages or needs, 606 00:37:53,740 --> 00:37:55,580 Isabella Roberts: you know, in an unbiased 607 00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:59,420 Isabella Roberts: way without their own agenda of whoever's doing the translating 608 00:37:59,980 --> 00:38:00,780 Isabella Roberts: into 609 00:38:01,820 --> 00:38:06,876 Isabella Roberts: the assembly or into the conversation? I don't know. I'm not sure if I trust humans to do that, to be honest. 610 00:38:06,876 --> 00:38:08,945 So unless we get a new technology or something, 611 00:38:10,785 --> 00:38:12,225 Isabella Roberts: or I can experience 612 00:38:12,785 --> 00:38:15,025 Isabella Roberts: firsthand myself some sort of like, 613 00:38:15,905 --> 00:38:16,705 Isabella Roberts: you 614 00:38:16,865 --> 00:38:18,625 Isabella Roberts: know, psycho transmission 615 00:38:20,190 --> 00:38:25,790 Isabella Roberts: through some sort of transcendental meditation of like, yeah, what, what these non human entities want. 616 00:38:26,030 --> 00:38:26,830 Isabella Roberts: Yeah, 617 00:38:26,910 --> 00:38:28,910 Isabella Roberts: I'm not sure I would, I would be 618 00:38:29,310 --> 00:38:34,270 Alessandro Oppo: so trusting of humans to do that. No, of course, because then it will be also representative 619 00:38:34,270 --> 00:38:35,470 Alessandro Oppo: democracy in a way. 620 00:38:36,325 --> 00:38:38,485 Alessandro Oppo: So where a human is representing 621 00:38:38,645 --> 00:38:40,405 Alessandro Oppo: a lot of dogs. 622 00:38:41,685 --> 00:38:47,285 Alessandro Oppo: Okay. I wonder, like, if we ask their dog, would you prefer, like, at the supermarket there or a public park? 623 00:38:47,525 --> 00:38:49,845 Alessandro Oppo: Then maybe we can imagine, like, 624 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:52,560 Alessandro Oppo: the reply. 625 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:53,680 Alessandro Oppo: And 626 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,720 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, but of course also this is an open question about if 627 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:00,960 Alessandro Oppo: and how to include the non 628 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,000 Alessandro Oppo: humans, 629 00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:03,760 Alessandro Oppo: but I think it will 630 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:04,560 Alessandro Oppo: be interesting. 631 00:39:07,065 --> 00:39:10,265 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Maybe you can speak with someone from that space in your next... 632 00:39:10,505 --> 00:39:12,025 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. That'd be great. 633 00:39:12,985 --> 00:39:13,785 Alessandro Oppo: Absolutely. 634 00:39:14,025 --> 00:39:14,825 Alessandro Oppo: And 635 00:39:15,545 --> 00:39:17,865 Alessandro Oppo: at the beginning, were talking about 636 00:39:20,830 --> 00:39:23,150 Alessandro Oppo: when you did your research, when you, 637 00:39:23,470 --> 00:39:25,710 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, also changed your, 638 00:39:28,030 --> 00:39:30,510 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, your career because you said that 639 00:39:32,110 --> 00:39:33,630 Alessandro Oppo: you started working 640 00:39:33,630 --> 00:39:34,910 Alessandro Oppo: on democracy later on. 641 00:39:35,505 --> 00:39:36,305 Alessandro Oppo: And 642 00:39:36,705 --> 00:39:40,145 Alessandro Oppo: and you said something about what democracy actual means, 643 00:39:40,305 --> 00:39:43,185 Alessandro Oppo: and so I was wondering what is for you democracy? 644 00:39:43,665 --> 00:39:44,785 Isabella Roberts: Yeah, thanks. 645 00:39:46,065 --> 00:39:52,456 Isabella Roberts: It's a yeah, it's a really good question. I think everyone should be asked that question as well at the beginning, especially 646 00:39:52,456 --> 00:39:55,070 because we can all start talking about something usually, 647 00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:56,430 Isabella Roberts: but in our heads 648 00:39:56,990 --> 00:40:01,790 Isabella Roberts: be interpreting a very different thing. So to me, is about 649 00:40:02,155 --> 00:40:04,635 Isabella Roberts: everyone having a say, everyone having a voice, 650 00:40:04,875 --> 00:40:07,755 Isabella Roberts: and being able to contribute to decision making, 651 00:40:08,875 --> 00:40:09,755 Isabella Roberts: and also 652 00:40:10,075 --> 00:40:10,875 Isabella Roberts: that 653 00:40:11,355 --> 00:40:12,395 Isabella Roberts: opportunity 654 00:40:12,555 --> 00:40:16,315 Isabella Roberts: to contribute being fair and equal amongst everyone, so just everyone. 655 00:40:17,140 --> 00:40:20,340 Isabella Roberts: At least everyone that's able to vote, so obviously there's age limits there. 656 00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:27,460 Isabella Roberts: And essentially, and I know that there's this whole thing about having to having the ability to make decisions 657 00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:34,837 Isabella Roberts: on issues that affect them, but obviously in the representative model and also with the citizen's assembly model, people might get 658 00:40:34,837 --> 00:40:41,560 called to a citizen's assembly on an issue, maybe it's same sex marriage, that doesn't directly affect them, but you are still 659 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:46,755 making these decisions or contributing to the decision on behalf of what you think is best for 660 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:50,180 Isabella Roberts: the rest of society, the rest of humanity. So 661 00:40:50,660 --> 00:40:57,278 Isabella Roberts: yeah, it's being able to just essentially have a say and be able to contribute to that, and also trusting that other 662 00:40:57,278 --> 00:40:58,180 people like you 663 00:41:00,945 --> 00:41:04,145 Isabella Roberts: will have you in mind when they go and do that on your behalf. 664 00:41:04,705 --> 00:41:08,785 Isabella Roberts: And that's why I do my I believe that the direct deliberative model 665 00:41:09,505 --> 00:41:11,825 Isabella Roberts: where people are randomly selected 666 00:41:11,905 --> 00:41:12,705 Isabella Roberts: and they 667 00:41:13,025 --> 00:41:15,425 Isabella Roberts: they step up with their own lived experiences 668 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,160 Isabella Roberts: and their own, you know, their own stories, 669 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:20,040 Isabella Roberts: own 670 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:25,320 Isabella Roberts: ups and downs in their own life, and everyone's lived through a myriad of things, 671 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,840 Isabella Roberts: when that's why they I think have a much more richer experience 672 00:41:29,175 --> 00:41:35,415 Isabella Roberts: to contribute to these decisions as opposed to career politicians who, for example, the standard, 673 00:41:35,415 --> 00:41:37,335 Isabella Roberts: you know, went through school, 674 00:41:37,495 --> 00:41:39,895 Isabella Roberts: went to uni, started working in parliament, 675 00:41:40,295 --> 00:41:46,423 Isabella Roberts: you know, got, you know, got elected, become the Conservative politician, and it's all about they focus so much of their time 676 00:41:46,423 --> 00:41:47,223 and energy 677 00:41:47,220 --> 00:41:48,020 Isabella Roberts: on 678 00:41:48,180 --> 00:41:50,340 Isabella Roberts: gaining and retaining power. 679 00:41:50,820 --> 00:41:57,287 Isabella Roberts: So the moment we remove that, the moment we remove this sort of like hunger for power and for keeping hold of 680 00:41:57,287 --> 00:42:02,285 power, and you just strip it back down to just like the everyday normal human and individual, 681 00:42:02,685 --> 00:42:06,285 Isabella Roberts: I think the decisions are going to be much more rich, much more empathetic and compassionate. 682 00:42:07,965 --> 00:42:10,525 Isabella Roberts: And also, again, you strip away the party whip, 683 00:42:10,930 --> 00:42:16,210 Isabella Roberts: so these politicians have in The UK anyway, part of the system, or we have this whip system 684 00:42:16,610 --> 00:42:20,050 Isabella Roberts: where these politicians are essentially being whipped into saying top down 685 00:42:20,370 --> 00:42:21,170 Isabella Roberts: what, 686 00:42:21,650 --> 00:42:26,450 Isabella Roberts: yeah, what they should, what they should say, what they should vote. So they're not even actually voting with their 687 00:42:27,225 --> 00:42:28,025 Isabella Roberts: own, 688 00:42:28,265 --> 00:42:30,025 Isabella Roberts: you know, conscience. 689 00:42:30,025 --> 00:42:35,625 Isabella Roberts: They are simply following what the party line tells them to do. So if you just strip all of that away, 690 00:42:36,585 --> 00:42:39,705 Isabella Roberts: then, you know, we're going to have much better decisions 691 00:42:39,865 --> 00:42:41,145 Isabella Roberts: on behalf of the rest of society. 692 00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:43,330 Alessandro Oppo: And how 693 00:42:43,650 --> 00:42:45,410 Alessandro Oppo: do you imagine like society, 694 00:42:45,810 --> 00:42:48,130 Alessandro Oppo: I know it's 695 00:42:48,130 --> 00:42:50,130 Alessandro Oppo: hard to reply, but it's like, 696 00:42:50,450 --> 00:42:53,330 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, in five years, ten years, twenty years, 697 00:42:53,895 --> 00:42:55,175 Alessandro Oppo: Are 698 00:42:55,175 --> 00:42:57,815 Alessandro Oppo: you, let's say, optimistic, pessimistic? 699 00:43:00,615 --> 00:43:04,855 Alessandro Oppo: Is there something you would like to see? I mean, I can imagine that you would like to see more, 700 00:43:05,495 --> 00:43:08,375 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, citizen assembly or, like, people talking to each other. 701 00:43:11,030 --> 00:43:12,710 Alessandro Oppo: But yeah, if you have a 702 00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:13,670 Alessandro Oppo: sort of 703 00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:16,470 Alessandro Oppo: image of how society 704 00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:18,390 Alessandro Oppo: could be or should be. 705 00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:19,430 Isabella Roberts: Mhmm. 706 00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:21,590 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. I mean, 707 00:43:22,475 --> 00:43:25,595 Isabella Roberts: so I mean, maybe just bringing it right back round to, 708 00:43:25,915 --> 00:43:29,995 Isabella Roberts: you know, festivals. Right? I mean, I did this BoomTown Festival experiment 709 00:43:30,075 --> 00:43:30,955 Isabella Roberts: study, 710 00:43:31,115 --> 00:43:34,155 Isabella Roberts: but I also go to other kinds of festivals. 711 00:43:34,395 --> 00:43:36,940 Isabella Roberts: So there's sort of these more, yeah, 712 00:43:37,100 --> 00:43:37,900 Isabella Roberts: musical, 713 00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:42,620 Isabella Roberts: but more spiritual and like non alcoholic. They call them like, you know, kind of higher 714 00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:50,352 Isabella Roberts: consciousness wellness festivals in The UK. Medicine festival is a big one. Soul Revolution is a really promising one. I went to 715 00:43:50,352 --> 00:43:57,844 the first time this year as well. You know, then so with Soul Revolution Festival, for example, next year, their theme is 716 00:43:57,844 --> 00:43:58,644 The Rising. 717 00:43:59,165 --> 00:43:59,965 Isabella Roberts: And 718 00:44:00,445 --> 00:44:03,725 Isabella Roberts: there's a real opportunity, I think, when people go to these sort of 719 00:44:04,250 --> 00:44:09,370 Isabella Roberts: spaces where they're, yeah, again, there's good vibes. People are working on themselves with each other 720 00:44:09,610 --> 00:44:10,730 Isabella Roberts: in a safe, 721 00:44:11,130 --> 00:44:15,770 Isabella Roberts: natural environment, you know, yes, literally surrounded by nature, grass beneath your feet. 722 00:44:16,650 --> 00:44:18,170 Isabella Roberts: So it's a very embodied 723 00:44:18,875 --> 00:44:19,835 Isabella Roberts: experience, 724 00:44:20,235 --> 00:44:22,315 Isabella Roberts: but it's also facilitated 725 00:44:22,555 --> 00:44:25,195 Isabella Roberts: and safe and spiritual. 726 00:44:25,275 --> 00:44:30,795 Isabella Roberts: It doesn't have to be religious, but it's spiritual. We all have a soul and a spirit. I believe we all have 727 00:44:30,795 --> 00:44:36,315 a conscience and we all have a consciousness, but not everyone has the opportunity to get in touch with that. And so 728 00:44:36,315 --> 00:44:37,570 these spaces are great opportunities 729 00:44:37,570 --> 00:44:41,410 Isabella Roberts: for individuals, for every single person to get in touch with that in their own way, 730 00:44:42,130 --> 00:44:44,690 Isabella Roberts: whether it's breath work, sound healing, 731 00:44:46,095 --> 00:44:47,935 Isabella Roberts: a dance movement workshop, 732 00:44:48,335 --> 00:44:52,975 Isabella Roberts: all sorts, and some of them, yes, they draw from indigenous wisdoms, etc, 733 00:44:53,615 --> 00:44:57,055 Isabella Roberts: and they have people coming from all over the country to bring their cultural 734 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:02,360 Isabella Roberts: spirituality practices as well. So you'd really just go, you get to go and get drawn 735 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,080 Isabella Roberts: and pulled towards whichever feels 736 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:10,403 Isabella Roberts: right for you. And we all come from different backgrounds as well. So what appeals more to you might not appeal to 737 00:45:10,403 --> 00:45:14,275 me. For example, there was a fire walking exercise, you know, at one of the festivals 738 00:45:14,515 --> 00:45:16,835 Isabella Roberts: or like a hape thing. So, 739 00:45:17,395 --> 00:45:24,755 Isabella Roberts: yeah, it's it's a really, really enriching experience that I think, you know, to day in our lives of like work, study, 740 00:45:25,370 --> 00:45:33,363 Isabella Roberts: you know, just this like constant churn of survival and, you know, potential routine, you know, everyone's day to day lives. It's 741 00:45:33,363 --> 00:45:34,163 an amazing 742 00:45:34,730 --> 00:45:35,690 Isabella Roberts: intervention 743 00:45:35,850 --> 00:45:41,031 Isabella Roberts: to go to these kind of like festivals or even retreats, you know, any time of the year, there's retreats that you 744 00:45:41,031 --> 00:45:45,035 can go on for like a few days or a week again with all their varying styles. 745 00:45:45,355 --> 00:45:46,155 Isabella Roberts: And 746 00:45:46,555 --> 00:45:48,955 Isabella Roberts: so I would really invite, yeah, everyone 747 00:45:48,955 --> 00:45:49,755 Isabella Roberts: to 748 00:45:50,955 --> 00:45:57,830 Isabella Roberts: enter these spaces or take the time and space for themselves to really get in tune with that inner world, 749 00:45:58,630 --> 00:46:00,710 Isabella Roberts: to then be able to enter 750 00:46:01,030 --> 00:46:07,030 Isabella Roberts: the outside world and contribute to the wider systems change from a place of more groundedness, 751 00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:07,910 Isabella Roberts: more self awareness, 752 00:46:08,825 --> 00:46:13,065 Isabella Roberts: and hopefully a more empathetic and compassionate place. And I think that also brings in this 753 00:46:14,425 --> 00:46:17,945 Isabella Roberts: phrase that I came up with with the anti party launch party 754 00:46:18,105 --> 00:46:24,551 Isabella Roberts: a few years ago at the same time as the last general election in The UK. But the phrases like systems change 755 00:46:24,551 --> 00:46:25,430 starts from within. 756 00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:28,150 Isabella Roberts: So you know, before we enter these phases, 757 00:46:28,630 --> 00:46:34,150 Isabella Roberts: whether it's a citizens' assembly or whether it's even like, you know, a protest march or just any sort of democratic engagement, 758 00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:37,350 Isabella Roberts: you would hope that we as participants, 759 00:46:37,665 --> 00:46:39,265 Isabella Roberts: as citizens are, 760 00:46:39,745 --> 00:46:44,939 Isabella Roberts: you know, already self aware and sure of ourselves. We know where we're coming from, and therefore we're also able to whole 761 00:46:44,939 --> 00:46:49,425 space, be kind and compassionate to other people as well. Because I think at the end of the day, 762 00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:53,230 Isabella Roberts: a lot of the issues that come up in society that's about, 763 00:46:53,870 --> 00:46:55,470 Isabella Roberts: you know, othering, 764 00:46:56,270 --> 00:46:57,870 Isabella Roberts: hatred of other groups, 765 00:46:57,950 --> 00:46:59,310 Isabella Roberts: blame, fear, 766 00:47:00,750 --> 00:47:01,550 Isabella Roberts: excuse me, 767 00:47:02,190 --> 00:47:02,990 Isabella Roberts: that all comes 768 00:47:04,015 --> 00:47:09,935 Isabella Roberts: from some sort of disturbance and something's triggering you from the inside, you know? So the sooner that we 769 00:47:10,415 --> 00:47:12,095 Isabella Roberts: identify and deal with that, 770 00:47:12,575 --> 00:47:13,775 Isabella Roberts: then the sooner 771 00:47:14,335 --> 00:47:17,135 Isabella Roberts: our outside world will respond to that in a more positive way. 772 00:47:17,870 --> 00:47:18,750 Alessandro Oppo: Mhmm. 773 00:47:19,310 --> 00:47:20,750 Alessandro Oppo: And I 774 00:47:21,950 --> 00:47:23,630 Alessandro Oppo: have still a couple of question, 775 00:47:23,870 --> 00:47:25,550 Alessandro Oppo: and I 776 00:47:25,550 --> 00:47:26,430 Alessandro Oppo: was thinking 777 00:47:28,270 --> 00:47:29,230 Alessandro Oppo: both for 778 00:47:29,470 --> 00:47:31,070 Alessandro Oppo: the field of politics 779 00:47:31,070 --> 00:47:31,870 Alessandro Oppo: and both, 780 00:47:32,815 --> 00:47:34,735 Alessandro Oppo: and also the field of technology, 781 00:47:36,575 --> 00:47:38,815 Alessandro Oppo: there are more males than female. 782 00:47:39,375 --> 00:47:40,175 Alessandro Oppo: And 783 00:47:40,495 --> 00:47:43,855 Alessandro Oppo: and also at the intersection of technology and politics 784 00:47:45,935 --> 00:47:47,855 Alessandro Oppo: is maybe even more in equal. 785 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,680 Alessandro Oppo: So I was wondering, like, what is your experience about it? 786 00:47:54,520 --> 00:48:00,822 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. I mean, I came from a already male dominated environment with finance. Right? So it wasn't really a big surprise to 787 00:48:00,822 --> 00:48:03,400 me. And also when I ran the London Assembly, 788 00:48:04,615 --> 00:48:06,855 Isabella Roberts: I was the only and youngest female... 789 00:48:07,255 --> 00:48:09,815 Isabella Roberts: Youngest person. I'm the only female in that whole party, 790 00:48:10,215 --> 00:48:12,215 Isabella Roberts: and there was an independent party at the time. 791 00:48:12,935 --> 00:48:14,775 Isabella Roberts: So, yeah, you know, did I feel 792 00:48:15,255 --> 00:48:19,690 Isabella Roberts: like I could really connect with my other teammates, especially when at the time, 793 00:48:20,250 --> 00:48:26,154 Isabella Roberts: the Sarah Everard case here in London of this girl being kidnapped and killed by a certain police officer that was erupting 794 00:48:26,154 --> 00:48:28,570 at the same time as the election campaign. So 795 00:48:29,515 --> 00:48:35,448 Isabella Roberts: as a solo female living in London at the time, you know, I'm reading and hearing about this. She was missing for 796 00:48:35,448 --> 00:48:41,382 ages and news was being coming out as the days goes on about, okay, now she's found who did it. Oh my 797 00:48:41,382 --> 00:48:47,315 God, looks like a police officer did it. It's a very scary time. Meanwhile, I'm exposing myself out there on this campaign 798 00:48:47,315 --> 00:48:53,249 trail saying, you know, vote for me and I'm opening myself up to all sorts of criticism and stuff at the time 799 00:48:53,249 --> 00:48:56,485 as you do, as any people running for, you know, election does. 800 00:48:57,125 --> 00:49:02,845 Isabella Roberts: Did I feel like safe and supported by the rest of my team members? No. Would it have helped if there were 801 00:49:02,845 --> 00:49:07,525 other women or females in the team, in the party? Yeah, for sure, because then they would understand 802 00:49:08,450 --> 00:49:11,250 Isabella Roberts: where I'm coming from and they'll understand the woman's experience. 803 00:49:12,770 --> 00:49:14,130 Isabella Roberts: I have noticed that 804 00:49:14,450 --> 00:49:15,250 Isabella Roberts: it 805 00:49:15,410 --> 00:49:19,330 Isabella Roberts: is a shame because, and you know, I don't want to stereotype, and actually from my 806 00:49:19,650 --> 00:49:20,450 Isabella Roberts: BoomTown 807 00:49:20,795 --> 00:49:24,795 Isabella Roberts: study, the findings so far, there's no distinction between male and female. 808 00:49:24,955 --> 00:49:31,917 Isabella Roberts: I actually did push back a bit with my supervisors in the beginning about collecting gender data in the beginning, because I'm 809 00:49:31,917 --> 00:49:36,030 just looking at the human experience, the embodied experience, you know, against AI. 810 00:49:36,590 --> 00:49:39,310 Isabella Roberts: And so for me, it's human versus AI. It's not about 811 00:49:39,790 --> 00:49:40,590 Isabella Roberts: genders 812 00:49:40,590 --> 00:49:46,467 Isabella Roberts: between each other in the in between humans. So but in the end, I was like, okay, whatever, I'll just put it 813 00:49:46,467 --> 00:49:52,344 on there. Obviously there's lots of different genders and options available now, but essentially high level though, we had a very mixed 814 00:49:52,344 --> 00:49:55,015 we had out of the 75 participants overall, very mixed 815 00:49:55,255 --> 00:49:57,975 Isabella Roberts: group in terms of gender, but so far like no 816 00:49:58,455 --> 00:50:05,485 Isabella Roberts: split in the findings of the physiological sensations and the impact on people between genders. So that has no impact. But in 817 00:50:05,485 --> 00:50:09,000 terms of like, you know, why there might be less women. 818 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,520 Isabella Roberts: Well, maybe I can't really speak to why there's not as much women in this space, 819 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:19,637 Isabella Roberts: but I can speak to why it would be good to have more women in this space. And just as a very 820 00:50:19,637 --> 00:50:20,437 high level example, 821 00:50:20,895 --> 00:50:26,575 Isabella Roberts: I was going through a UK Select Committee minutes document just the other night, 822 00:50:27,215 --> 00:50:28,575 Isabella Roberts: and there's three people 823 00:50:29,055 --> 00:50:32,895 Isabella Roberts: from the democracy space reporting on that, two guys and one lady. 824 00:50:33,215 --> 00:50:36,910 Isabella Roberts: And the two guys, their sort of, you know, contributions and 825 00:50:37,150 --> 00:50:39,230 Isabella Roberts: statements were very much, you know, 826 00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:42,270 Isabella Roberts: why something would be better, how to do it better 827 00:50:42,590 --> 00:50:47,550 Isabella Roberts: in a very practical sense and, you know, positives and minuses, that kind of very, yeah, very logically 828 00:50:48,270 --> 00:50:51,085 Isabella Roberts: setting out the preferred route. 829 00:50:51,405 --> 00:50:57,376 Isabella Roberts: But then it was actually the lady that brought up things about like education and awareness. And it was actually her that 830 00:50:57,376 --> 00:50:59,005 brought up these very like much 831 00:50:59,485 --> 00:51:00,605 Isabella Roberts: more subtle 832 00:51:00,605 --> 00:51:01,885 Isabella Roberts: between the lines. 833 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,680 Isabella Roberts: And I guess again something to do with 834 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:12,880 Isabella Roberts: actually taking into account like humans sort of lives and experience and feelings and experience of 835 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,400 Isabella Roberts: what's being proposed or what's happening 836 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:17,440 Isabella Roberts: into account, 837 00:51:18,035 --> 00:51:21,475 Isabella Roberts: you know, and so again, I don't want to stereotype and say that, oh, you know, 838 00:51:21,955 --> 00:51:23,875 Isabella Roberts: men don't take into account 839 00:51:24,355 --> 00:51:26,755 Isabella Roberts: emotions and feelings and women do more. 840 00:51:28,035 --> 00:51:30,355 Isabella Roberts: But if we do need to include, 841 00:51:31,180 --> 00:51:34,540 Isabella Roberts: we need to include more women anyway. We need to include more 842 00:51:35,980 --> 00:51:37,500 Isabella Roberts: more consideration 843 00:51:37,500 --> 00:51:38,620 Isabella Roberts: of these factors, 844 00:51:38,860 --> 00:51:43,020 Isabella Roberts: especially if we're talking about like the digital democracy space and everything is becoming more mechanic, 845 00:51:43,340 --> 00:51:44,540 Isabella Roberts: you know, autonomous, 846 00:51:45,020 --> 00:51:45,820 Isabella Roberts: etcetera, etcetera. 847 00:51:46,655 --> 00:51:53,025 Isabella Roberts: And yes, at the end of the day, I am a female, I'm a woman, and is it any surprise that my 848 00:51:53,025 --> 00:51:58,815 research is all about, yeah, like feelings and experience and embodiment, because that's a big gap that I spotted in 849 00:51:59,140 --> 00:52:04,180 Isabella Roberts: the literature so far and in the research so far, and that's what I'm trying to reverse or refocus 850 00:52:04,260 --> 00:52:10,127 Isabella Roberts: to balance everything out. Know, everything's about balance. That's why we have men and women and the yin and yang and all 851 00:52:10,127 --> 00:52:10,927 these things. 852 00:52:11,060 --> 00:52:11,860 Isabella Roberts: So 853 00:52:12,015 --> 00:52:15,135 Isabella Roberts: yeah, we definitely need to bring to bring back balance. And 854 00:52:15,615 --> 00:52:18,415 Isabella Roberts: it's also no surprise that when I am doing my readings, 855 00:52:18,575 --> 00:52:20,975 Isabella Roberts: a lot of the key literature that I am drawing from, 856 00:52:21,375 --> 00:52:24,175 Isabella Roberts: you know, there's like Donna Haraway, like cyborg feminism, 857 00:52:25,930 --> 00:52:28,650 Isabella Roberts: Amanda Manchin, like bodies and politics. 858 00:52:29,370 --> 00:52:35,370 Isabella Roberts: And there's one other lady, I'm going to remember her later, but like, you know, the key readings on sort of like 859 00:52:35,610 --> 00:52:36,490 Isabella Roberts: embodiment, 860 00:52:36,490 --> 00:52:37,290 Isabella Roberts: feelings, 861 00:52:38,095 --> 00:52:42,015 Isabella Roberts: yeah, empathy. There's like La la Meradova here at Southampton 862 00:52:42,175 --> 00:52:43,055 Isabella Roberts: University. 863 00:52:43,055 --> 00:52:46,015 Isabella Roberts: It's it's all women contributing this stuff, you know. So, 864 00:52:47,695 --> 00:52:54,330 Isabella Roberts: yeah, hoping to just add to that to essentially just make sure that everything is as balanced as possible. 865 00:52:54,650 --> 00:52:58,570 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. Thank you. Also, because I think it's important because if 866 00:52:59,210 --> 00:53:00,330 Alessandro Oppo: it happens that, 867 00:53:01,290 --> 00:53:02,330 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, if 868 00:53:03,770 --> 00:53:05,050 Alessandro Oppo: with technology 869 00:53:05,050 --> 00:53:07,530 Alessandro Oppo: and new practises, we can create a sort of, 870 00:53:09,555 --> 00:53:12,435 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, new political system, social system, 871 00:53:13,155 --> 00:53:16,275 Alessandro Oppo: then it will be nice to to hear every voice. 872 00:53:17,235 --> 00:53:24,480 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, not just inside the citizen assembly, but also people that organize and also different contribution and different attention 873 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,400 Alessandro Oppo: to what people say. 874 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,480 Alessandro Oppo: So I think it's very important this... 875 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:32,000 Alessandro Oppo: And 876 00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:34,560 Isabella Roberts: if you have a And isn't the first computer 877 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:36,880 Isabella Roberts: programmer like that Ada Lovelace? 878 00:53:37,235 --> 00:53:44,207 Isabella Roberts: Like wasn't she like the first, right? And she obviously, she was a lady and she came from a very different background 879 00:53:44,207 --> 00:53:45,475 of sort of humanities, 880 00:53:45,475 --> 00:53:48,915 Isabella Roberts: she was the daughter of that famous poet. Right? So 881 00:53:49,155 --> 00:53:50,995 Isabella Roberts: I think also even within history, 882 00:53:51,550 --> 00:53:58,430 Isabella Roberts: there's a lot of examples where women have contributed a lot to the development and design and the 883 00:53:59,790 --> 00:54:05,790 Isabella Roberts: leaps that this technology has had to get here. But then it's just a shame that now, 884 00:54:06,445 --> 00:54:14,605 Isabella Roberts: yeah, most of the digital democracy or, you know, civic tech space tends to be being run by by men. So, 885 00:54:15,085 --> 00:54:16,925 Isabella Roberts: yeah, let's see if we can shift that. 886 00:54:17,245 --> 00:54:19,325 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. I I've read recently 887 00:54:20,205 --> 00:54:23,160 Alessandro Oppo: Zeros and Ones from study plant, 888 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:24,680 Alessandro Oppo: and 889 00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:26,840 Alessandro Oppo: she was also 890 00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:30,280 Alessandro Oppo: telling about Ada Lovelace history. 891 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,400 Alessandro Oppo: And also it was interesting that she was comparing 892 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:34,760 Alessandro Oppo: like the, 893 00:54:35,755 --> 00:54:38,155 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, art of... Is it weaving? 894 00:54:38,955 --> 00:54:39,755 Alessandro Oppo: Like, 895 00:54:40,955 --> 00:54:42,475 Alessandro Oppo: when you produce fabric, 896 00:54:42,555 --> 00:54:43,595 Alessandro Oppo: is it like... 897 00:54:45,355 --> 00:54:47,515 Alessandro Oppo: Weave. It is basically an weaving. Yeah. 898 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:54,080 Alessandro Oppo: That is very similar because at the end, there's a sort of network of different threads. 899 00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:56,640 Alessandro Oppo: And so she was comparing 900 00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:57,760 Alessandro Oppo: it to, 901 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,240 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, to the Internet and and 902 00:55:02,535 --> 00:55:05,335 Alessandro Oppo: there were different parallels to technology. 903 00:55:05,895 --> 00:55:07,335 Alessandro Oppo: It was quite interesting. 904 00:55:09,575 --> 00:55:10,375 Alessandro Oppo: And 905 00:55:10,375 --> 00:55:13,175 Alessandro Oppo: I have the last question that is 906 00:55:15,030 --> 00:55:19,670 Alessandro Oppo: about if you have a message for all the people that are working in the field 907 00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:21,990 Alessandro Oppo: or in different parts of the field. 908 00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:24,070 Isabella Roberts: Yeah, I think, you know, 909 00:55:24,550 --> 00:55:27,750 Isabella Roberts: in line with the themes that we've 910 00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:29,110 Isabella Roberts: touched upon in this conversation. 911 00:55:31,745 --> 00:55:38,065 Isabella Roberts: Yeah, my like, you know, kind of key message or invite to others in the field, anyone listening, is to 912 00:55:38,625 --> 00:55:39,985 Isabella Roberts: have a think about 913 00:55:40,305 --> 00:55:41,425 Isabella Roberts: what sort of 914 00:55:42,385 --> 00:55:47,820 Isabella Roberts: embodiment practices have you done recently or can you do to basically get in touch 915 00:55:48,300 --> 00:55:49,500 Isabella Roberts: with your 916 00:55:49,740 --> 00:55:57,545 Isabella Roberts: physical experience of your body in this space? And just remember that we are embodied beings and we have more than five 917 00:55:57,545 --> 00:55:58,345 senses. 918 00:55:58,455 --> 00:56:01,095 Isabella Roberts: Right? It's not just everything that's going on in our mind, 919 00:56:02,135 --> 00:56:03,335 Isabella Roberts: and just really, yeah, 920 00:56:03,815 --> 00:56:06,135 Isabella Roberts: bring yourself out of your mind, back into your body, 921 00:56:06,535 --> 00:56:12,423 Isabella Roberts: into your heart space, into your breath, into your lungs. I'm gonna stop there before I do my whole like bruise of 922 00:56:12,423 --> 00:56:17,240 Bella meditation spirit, but yeah, even if that's a five, ten minute meditation first thing in the morning, 923 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:24,241 Isabella Roberts: going to an ecstatic dance event, there's loads around London, I'm sure wherever you are in The UK, you can find something 924 00:56:24,241 --> 00:56:29,320 that find a sound healing event, and I would just really invite you to try out one of these 925 00:56:29,725 --> 00:56:33,245 Isabella Roberts: potentially crazy woo woo experience workshops 926 00:56:33,245 --> 00:56:34,045 Isabella Roberts: and 927 00:56:34,205 --> 00:56:40,045 Isabella Roberts: just see see how you feel and just be really really aware of how you feel and how it's shifted anything 928 00:56:40,205 --> 00:56:42,685 Alessandro Oppo: inside you. Thank you a lot, Willa. 929 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:44,560 Alessandro Oppo: Really? 930 00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:47,040 Isabella Roberts: Yeah. Thanks, Alessandra. Thanks for your questions. 931 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:49,920 Isabella Roberts: We've gone through so many deep things. 932 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,240 Alessandro Oppo: And if you want to add anything else, otherwise, I close the 933 00:56:54,995 --> 00:56:57,555 Isabella Roberts: Oh, pressure's on now. I would just say, 934 00:56:58,755 --> 00:57:03,955 Isabella Roberts: well, maybe even just after listening to this, let's just say, after listening to this, just just take 935 00:57:04,115 --> 00:57:06,355 Isabella Roberts: one minute in complete silence, 936 00:57:06,515 --> 00:57:07,875 Isabella Roberts: focusing on your breath 937 00:57:08,441 --> 00:57:10,681 Isabella Roberts: and just see what emerges 938 00:57:10,841 --> 00:57:13,481 Isabella Roberts: and just be really, really present in the moment. 939 00:57:14,281 --> 00:57:15,081 Isabella Roberts: Enjoy. 940 00:57:15,721 --> 00:57:17,641 Isabella Roberts: Thank you. Thank you.