Introducing the democracy innovators podcast: The future of of democracy, governance and technology

so welcome on another episodes or may

be the first episode the of democracy

innovators podcast and the our guests of

today that is not just the guests

the is a catalog columbia haley's

is it is right there pronunciation it's

i would say close close enough

and the so which which one is

the right one at misha illness would

be the right one okay and the

actually my name is allison up

and the yeah and this is the

is the first episode of something that

we

it's it's around on one year that

we were discussing about this podcast right

yeah so actually like yeah i think

one year ago we met somehow and

there was the city around a little

bit at but when it became more

concrete i think end of november last

year or at beginning of december sub

someone somewhat around this time i think

and the i i thought why i

wanted to do a podcast about the

i mean civic tech or political deck

this kind of things

and the

i mean i i think that is

interesting for me to talk about the

this kind of topics but he also

thought that many times and this is

something we also talked about the that

the

the sometime you are lacking the real

world you talk about the governance you

talk about the technology and people look

at you as if you're crazy

and the also that am i crazy

yeah right right it's it's it's it's

a feeling that i know very well

but but i think i think there's

maybe one one shot story i can

tell because some it was it was

i think very very important for for

like by i'm also doing it now

is like when i was in school

i think it was seventh or eighth

grade or so there was a

the teacher and politics i think it

was the first great way we had

politics as as the subject and 'em

he was like introducing or trying to

like him explain a little bit why

or like motivate light why we have

the democracy we have and he was

like explaining like so just just assume

like your

that we have as the society and

you want to take decisions at it

was somehow framed already in a democratic

setting and but the question was if

if we want to have a democratic

decisions and if you want to have

a democratic system how can we do

it and he said like one of

the obvious most of your things as

you just meet i mean if you're

a smaller group of people use the

together discuss find a solution right perhaps

do

down and execute wherever you have decided

on but if you have a lot

of people around me this was in

germany so like eighty million people and

taking decisions together it's just unfeasible you

cannot collect eighty million people in the

stadium and have a large discussion in

some way whatever way the should be

so so why he wanted to come

to us to the point that like

it's totally ok

obvious to have representatives and to vote

for representatives that kind of represent the

'em the the whole population and then

forces this representative for some time and

takes all these decisions in a smaller

group where decisions are more feasible but

them but over time i think it's

big

same cleared it like i mean already

earlier than this but for me it

became more and more clear that they

are some problems with his approach like

a lot of problems and a i

think a lot of people who will

listen to this a preview well aware

of this and and put it like

a little bit straighter the point i

would say it's like psychological biases that

is like or problem we have like

people are not like rational people they

are not electing like

good representatives in away i mean were

very work very very good example in

the u s and m like a

like this is a problem we have

to handle and this simpler representation has

some problems and also like the complexity

that people are like like globally like

it you elect them for four years

but it within those four years they

have like they they take 'em

they take responsibility for all the topics

like they really have to know everything

and the more complex the world becomes

the more problematic this become so a

lot of problems it up yet well

aware but at the same time and

we have like a lot of new

technologies coming in like we have the

internet it's not not like not like

at an old one hundred years ago

where people

really needed to move physically to another

place to discuss or to exchange opinions

or it maybe they could have done

it with a letter but this would

still be very like inefficient and we

can do this more efficient know and

we have a lot of tools available

social media a i blocked and other

stuff and yeah the question is from

this perspective at least for me this

questions from

this perspective aren't we perhaps

just in the very beginning of the

dimmock democratic development or entity and development

of democracies isn't isn't the system we

have not like the end of democracies

what we sometimes belief to think when

we're coming out of school like thinking

like this is the perfect system and

does this is how it should be

forever but instead thinking like this is

just the beginning this was just the

vet

three first step of developing democracies am

and as was like based on what

we could do when was feasible to

that time but it's perhaps time to

like advance from this point and yeah

i think this is this is for

me what this podcast is about like

starting to bring together or these new

perspectives and

we are from from people who thought

a lot about all about this radio

absolutely was like her as i was

seeing

when asked myself am i crazy about

thinking about things that do not exist

the i mean as use i mean

we ever the democracy or system that

works in a certain way we elect

with some one the should represent has

the but as you as you said

not all with that person is able

do to do a good job and

i remember like a

i a professor from contemporary three and

he was talking about represent and so

politicians and actual in italy wherever lot

of cases of corruption also some politician

the thorpe you wonder like who called

the vote for them

at your like white

and the he will thing or that

the they're not

a special case like a that the

person that politician that wishing keys the

particular ignore and the

it just one person extracted from the

population

and also these the i mean this

makes things way more complex because the

it means that there is also a

cultural problem not just the like a

political problem i mean then everything is

political of course

and the i'm thinking that the what

with me finca

i

about the technology that cool helper people

in deciding and discussing

is the is the fact that the

if we look about the if we

look at the pasta

a conflict the that is i do

not tree tree and to your sold

or more could be like religion war

eaten in europe we are detached from

that the topic i mean maybe we

are not religious maybe we could be

cattolica protests and but by the way

we

we are not sought touched emotionally attached

to that the conflict and so we

can see the we refer some

in in a clear way

we can see that there were both

parties were ripe in a way they

had their own reasons took to say

something and eventually also the fight the

and so on

and while it when the there is

something when there is a conflict the

in the present then we are way

more

the attached a we have a lot

of emotions attached to that event and

so we are not lucid the enough

to

to think in a rational way

and when using the word rational is

is quite dangerous because a different kind

of

logic and rationality exist the

i

and yeah i thought that the technology

i mean cool help us because as

you said in the past we could

just the sun letters or like a

using this kind of technology that the

the and were like streets and the

there was the pasta system

and nowadays maybe we can use technology

to

to decide in a a na more

or example way

we can create create different kind of

system we can create money that expire

eventually we can create on a different

kind of money one money when you

are paid one money when you have

to pay someone i dunno like a

lot of possibilities and the i i

think that this podcast the could be

a space

to discovered his face interview may be

researcher that are exploring new kind of

monetary system your kind of for a

decision making them your kind of for

also way of living why not

i mean you are used to see

towns in a certain way i mean

the town that we know now but

what about the future like i'll i've

also seen the and

i mean in italy before like the

pandemic no one was talking about as

marked working remote working

and now people are still doing it

may be at a couple of days

every week so i am thinking about

the that the person could could actually

live their hometown and may believe outside

and and and so i think that

the civic decker yes it it is

technology

it is also participation with technology but

it's also discussing and thinking about the

the society of the future

yeah yeah yeah absolutely i thought so

i i think i think there is

an interesting point in this because like

like you can you can go this

i mean even if we start like

from this very societal level in a

sense we can let go down to

the very basic conversations you can have

just with like one person i mean

you can you can have a very

tough discussion already with wow

one person that can be very complicated

can become very complicated especially when like

i mean often if you have a

conflict and you're in a very like

resource rich situations and then it's mostly

doable but especially when like resources went

down and you have like really not

enough time not enough at and or

money whatever is me

missing and then you have a conflict

and it starts to eat up very

quickly and the only thing that helps

like to to to start these are

true to to 'em to sit like

soft the conflicts as like a very

good communication style of training a lot

of information available and stuff like this

and and this is like from like

like in into dimensions in the way

like the podcast could like go

from from the very basic psychological way

of southern conflicts up to like the

societal level of like scaling up to

this high level of the slaving conflicts

because i mean eventually all are also

on the high level it all basis

on discussions on an old evelyn a

sense

am and and yeah and and sites

also interesting like to understand or find

guests here in this podcast that could

help us understanding in a way like

how do these conflicts of all falcon

we solve them on a small level

and how can we solve them on

a larger level ends

and how can we include especially on

larger levels how can we include like

technologies that we have like a i

am i dunno over prepped prep cirm

blockchain perhaps i dunno as scientific and

insights from collective intelligence from complex social

systems whatever whatever is around there or

just pilot pop-up politics

since sorry economic science everything face fiscally

yeah absolutely and i also thought about

the i mean asked myself what are

my expectation for this podcast

and the you know you

one could expect that the podcast i

dunno you became reacher because the podcast

the but i i i think that

at the end is to learn something

i mean

and we already recorded some episodes and

the it was super interesting to talk

to

to the people that the i interviewed

and the yeah that that is there

def the things isla i liked more

because of the every fingers about the

i mean the this also make me

think about the the system we are

leaving een where we usually learn when

we are younger

and then the we don't have to

learn any more we know everything the

and this is not true and i

think we should the

i mean several times we add the

also discussion about education

and though i mean this is not

so connected with civic decker ah but

this is the cool thing about civic

decker that is connected with everything

yeah absolutely with everything that as they're

concerned with a society yeah absolutely and

and and and as a like like

also like from from from what i

said like if if we're talking about

society of is it of course includes

also the individual and howard enrich individual

works yeah yeah and and and i

think i think as another interesting point

in what you said because it brings

she drinks a spec also to this

point where way said that there sometimes

this feeling of like feeling a little

bit crazy of what we're doing you

know like engaging for like new democratic

development but actually no one has asked

for it i mean you know everyone

is just asking for it we need

to like stay strong and our democratic

approach in prince

couple whatever this means but and as

not much around like that politicians are

saying like we need a your way

of thinking democracy this simply does not

happen so no one i mean no

one is asking for reinventing democracy and

sense as so that's why it feels

a little bit crazy like investing significant

amount of time often like in our

case but also in the case of

many

the other people with and like very

fuel or perhaps even no funding at

all available thinking about these things and

i think actually there's also an interesting

thing of this podcast what is also

kind of my expectant a exp expectation

actually is that like when we hear

to more voices in this 'em and

as and as

like space of people were thinking about

things maybe overtime it it feels a

little bit more common you don't like

hearing to someone was worked in this

space for like five ten years perhaps

maybe in a small niche and another

one in a small nice working on

this for three years in another one

in latin like one perhaps and more

technical and technological nice from the other

one may be in a little bit

more

at and all sociological nice whatever but

then hearing all these voices together after

some time am i think they are

there will they will stay the impression

of i mean we're not alone i

mean there are a lot of people

thinking about as a lot of people

innovating thinks in this direction and i

think this will help us also to

not feel so crazy anymore

yeah exactly and is is there

could be the main reason why we

are doing this

to not feel alone

yes yes the in a way

and the

but he has been there at then

and also like like of course some

a just edit and know at some

some some practical things are in and

tubs of expectations like 'em like just

to get inspired of caused by some

other so am i mean i had

the the the lucky chance to hear

to the first recordings you have you

have done so far and for me

it was very interesting to he

those was as i am actually much

more than i have expected and 'em

and really like people as and and

also like at what what of saucer

little bit surprising for me it's not

like just just like people are like

coming up for like i dunno they

have just started half a year ago

and it's shaken like you know just

the hype thing and and a leave

again but there

some people who are aware read like

years of the time investing and thinking

in this direction and as really feels

like there's something going on and as

chance to to develop things am and

also like on a technological site i

mean this is something we're yeah this

book us real property of while the

dot in the future but also like

in introducing ordered him to technological

developments because like when we talk about

a i were talking about the risks

were talking about how it can change

industry may be we talk about how

he can harm social media it can

how it can harm society but not

so much the opportunities and 'em perhaps

we can put some effort or some

more perspective on this

yeah absolutely and i think he also

about the

do you remember when we first met

the yet around one year ago and

we also talk to other people that

were working on similar projects and them

and they realized that we also had

the some similar

mental processes laker we were that goal

in the same point though we were

motivated by something quite see miller

i dunno we started the for a

fee and could beebe psychology physics the

three a computer science the and there

were all these are come things between

the

these individuals that came from all over

the world but the far

kind of similar attitude the to do

something that the as you said no

one required before they can one asked

for our new kind of democracy morrow

reads on to lender different from the

one we have

and the i think it will be

interesting like to was the to say

something about the other

like who we are

yeah sure yep yeah shell shall i

start or what would you like gap

yeah yeah sure i can okay are

so he a little bits to my

background so

actually i have a quite long kind

of jose academic background so let that

a little bit earlier perhaps so after

school i was one of the last

year's were like the military service was

mandatory in germany and i are in

germany at what it was at that

time possible to do like a soap

it is somehow a voluntary social year

as replacement for this military service where

decide to for and i was an

like always interested in understanding like how

the like how the humans work in

a way but also in how the

world works in away but the humans

were a little bit more in my

me and focus and then i decided

to with this of

voluntary social year in a like an

addiction therapy institution like therapy institute for

a drug addicted people for a year

and this was quite interesting and i

stuck with this idea or art like

within this year a girl a like

strongly decided that i would like to

the study psychology but i also that

was key

interesting developed development for me decided to

definitively not willing to be a to

to do therapy or because i always

had the feeling like

you know if if you're working with

directed people you realize at some point

that all these problems that happened in

their life and is were like adults

are are like like that the province

secured already under titled or at or

latest in their youth are so if

you look at their like life history

you realize okay there's a clear reason

why the

they they end up ended up their

way and where they are now and

always always felt like it's good that

we have therapists it's very important to

a therapists no question but for me

as an individual i always felt like

am too late you know i'm i'm

i i don't want to like how

people at a stage where you cannot

really have any more you can just

make it a little bit more comfortable

put

be caught the perhaps you can also

help a little bit but for me

it always felt like am too late

and then i was always thinking okay

how like worse whereas the excess and

actually i mean your you mentioned this

already at some point before actually i

thought i would like to improve education

like the education system because i thought

this is like were like as a

society you can have most excess and

like improving the abilities and skills of

people

air but over time has changed anyhow

i still decided to start psychology which

was a good choice i think but

our within the first year area i

realized like it some somehow not method

toilet not know the the methodology was

not like rent the resume to

not enough movies social psychologists in social

sense already equates like

in statistical methods are the like field

but it was still not enough and

i've had always like i need more

like hot skills in the sense am

and then as that to also likes

are studying physics and at the same

time around this time i also developed

this hypocrisy project and working online

like how like decision making could be

scaled and then like i did some

more everything at the same time i

was also working as a freelance at

that time for web development to like

fund my studies and and after on

five years i was able to like

finished both like the bachelor and psychology

individual and physics and also the advocacy

project was like

going on and like i developed my

my a reputable open skills but i

wanted to go i thing i wanted

to go a little bit deeper into

the like method of methodology

yeah the the methods part

m and or i i sought that

time that like ahead different things of

course my mind it was never that

clear but at the time i i

had the feeling like am that perhaps

sciences the way i would like to

go and if i would look like

the go to the way of science

then like statistics is what you need

because this is like kind of the

language of science i mean it's not

only the law

which of signs if you want us

to understand how things like work in

the nature it's always good to have

statistics available because it gives you a

little bit like certainty about what's your

what's correlates and what doesn't correlate in

away like hubs little bit to overcome

psychological biases and way

and that was a very good choice

a think because i was not only

learning a lot of was a bot

statistics in general it also helped me

to he likes like get a solid

mouth understand it because even though i

studied physics in my bachelor a i

think am i was especially was not

able to really grasp the essence of

moth moth of mathematik

six and but this was came down

on and in this statistics a muster

and i also got first insights into

machine learning and as was also quite

interesting and very unexpected because they had

not thought about machine learning at the

time but that was the time around

i think it was two thousand and

fifteen tooth and sixteen to seventeen somewhat

around where

like deep learning started to come up

and it was a for me quite

interesting time in and like digging into

this and i learn python island like

various building very simple neural networks and

then during ramesses i realized there is

something interesting like an interesting field called

computation

neuroscience i was never hearing from this

before but at the time i was

like it was the first time that

the heard of it

and them in this field i thought

of it or i have found an

opportunity in away because i thought okay

this is perhaps like the best chance

to understand like human nature in away

because you're going down to the neurons

simulating them on your computer and can

check if it works or if it

doesn't work you know you have a

really good like check

in away and you can always you

get inspirations from biologic from biology some

from like experimental neuroscience and and you

get results from your computer simulations and

you can always compare it indiana turned

out it i was during that time

always not so sure if it was

really a goods choice i was like

like probably every ph

he is striking struggling a lot during

phd time if it's really good thing

to to continue with it or to

just drop it eventually i made it

in a finished it but i'm still

today not not sure if it really

like was a good benefits for me

or if it would have been better

to like start something else earlier

but i dunno i for sure i

gained a lot of insights that work

that that are available in any way

excellent in in and in any case

and and

yeah and after that i moved to

sweden with my family that there was

just like about wanted to use just

pure survival there was not much going

on in my life otherwise than just

trying to handle my two kids and

like renovating the house and trying to

your cat of survived the situation and

was just last year that has started

to though

inc about like okay what what next

in the sense you know what do

i want to take a job i

mean with a phd in the sphere

to have good job opportunities but it

also means you have to work full-time

and not much time at home

or or would you like to focus

on freelancing or what you do like

like to be the crazy guy that

tries to to help improving democracy and

a somehow decided mostly for the letter

and i activated some like a a

h i tried to to go back

a little bit into science but the

sent from taught in yet another direction

like a little bit more from the

direction of applied i t design processes

like collective intelligence perspective which is still

like somehow connected but the up www

were different in a sense i met

good context with professors to start to

support me a little bit but still

without funding and still freelancing to to

keep me like to keep his surviving

air with the hope that the sometimes

plays out i also looking a little

bit into like entrepreneurship liquor have no

part of a company and perhaps hunting

and

one this year let's see

yeah yeah but this is this is

where i'm now and am i'm kind

of just starting and actually when when

when i met you with this at

year of the having the podcast for

me it was quite clear that this

is kind of and be opportunity not

not only because you're like a like

i always thought your like the perfect

person of like interviewing people in this

topic there

but also like because it it could

bring me into a position of talking

little bit of what i am thinking

'em could like a benefit my project

a little bit or even if it's

just indirectly but still and and

yeah and also like bring the at

as as we said before in or

expectations part in the sense like bring

this whole topic forward innocence and and

making it a little bit more public

and also like get insights from other

people are making connections collaborations i mean

and and as this is not something

that is only for me a benefit

or for you this is hopeful the

also benefit of for all the other

people like for the

the listeners but also for the guests

who may be realized that there are

some one else around doing the same

same thing for five years and day

we're just not aware of it perhaps

am yeah that the sir was poor

probably little bit longer

no not the thank you for also

for the kenworth i was thinking that

the and is a particular field that

may be already the other times

but like when you'll find someone that

is doing the same another in another

field the year for that person is

a competitor while here a person is

a collaborator and also we from another

found that you also know we were

joking about the

okay so on want to steal our

worker do it please

yes absolutely if that's what i was

always say exact like i i met

some people who said that air yeah

like with your project our aren't you

afraid that someone just copied called when

you do everything open source and you

like document everything at every every one

can understand what you're doing and i'm

like no i mean i would be

happy if people would do like

yeah please please do it

i want to read novels i want

to just the walk walking yeah of

course yeah

yeah this is something very exciting because

the i see that the all these

the yeah all the people that they

met the lake and

i believe that the something can be

changed and so yeah what benefits me

or you also benefit someone else and

also this is something specific about the

technology will say where if i write

a program then you can use the

same program and another person to

you don't have to write it three

times

and are many times i thought what

is lacking

in the real world the

ideas for a like is there are

the only things that are applicable we

found the losing their original i will

say maybe a fire in some way

yes his yep

yet and at at it doesn't cost

any additional resources to share it in

a way

yeah yeah exactly

and the

m yeah i but sweats vets for

to repeat before he starts a traitor

she like drifting in another direction what

about you so your background and

so my background is a quite mix

the and confused the i will say

and because the i e

i mean i can say that i

started the for some a scientific studies

in ice-cold

but back then i also really like

it licked her utter i mean i

was reading a lot of novels but

on my side

not for school and i never liked

lichter arturo when i was studying eat

that school

and the

i remember i was not motivated so

at a certain time my left eye

school

i was a in the

i mean we have five years of

high school in italy i was at

the third year and a how do

you say when they are

i mean you have to repeat one

year basically

so but i really i was not

motivated the for me i had the

impression i was not learning that everything

was a sort of kind of exercise

but not release something useful

and the and so i went to

this evening school about computer science

and the i also started working his

arm helpdesk her system administrator out the

desk and they also left the evening

school

so i was we followed any diploma

and the i work there for almost

five years

then i remember like do

one day i thought okay and wasting

my life i mean there was also

my boss sir i think i was

twenty

three twenty florida remember

and my boss was around forty and

the told me i was your age

when it came here and so i

thought okay is the moment i have

to great

otherwise i i will wake up one

day in a place that the

i mean is not something that i

choose it just happen

so i went nah he actually left

the

that place

and i started writing and at the

same time also wing backpacks

had this thing like i was actually

wanted the backpack but there were quite

expensive so i found the do a

community a forum where people were suing

their backpacks and also some of them

they were selling

and the what he thought is the

okay they are suing a backpack if

they can do it i also can

do it i mean and the at

the end i spent so much more

like i spent a lot comparing the

i could have both are a very

nice backpack

but the may be able to not

have had the experience

and the

yeah then i went back to see

high school

the same evening guy school and the

i had to do two years saw

in the same chair that during the

morning are used by a normal student

and

yeah for two years i went there

was quite interesting else matter some interesting

people

and the it was also very very

interesting for me because is it is

different when you're a kid the you're

just there because he have to

when you are a bit older

the you understand things a little bit

the better

and also it was a little bit

different because when a when there for

the first time there was there

how is called where you write them

becca blacker

rep blackboard or black yeah yeah exactly

the record and the when i went

there for the second time there was

a a touchscreen

so it was also very differently nah

technological advance

and the yeah i mean i got

my diploma but then i thought okay

the i don't want to

working day t i mean i saw

that all my friends that were working

in the tito are working for some

be company for a banker

or something like this while i was

very

i'm in back then i was working

on a prototype of back panel because

i have back pain i was i

had back pain was when i was

studying

i have a between when i sit

down so that's why i thought okay

maybe i'll back panel equal help me

and the

i mean i released it as a

open our open source i dunno if

someone has built it i dunno

yeah but still is a project i

i think in the future will be

interesting i dunno maybe ten years twenty

years i will go back to work

on you

and them

yeah i mean i decided to the

studies three

i

is something that the i mean i

think that every one of face is

a interested by what happened in the

pasta but not every a fuzzy is

interested in studying history

saw

i was interested in the pasta but

i never had the time to sit

down kamath eyes everything to make the

timeline to remember

to the connections and so yeah i

did it for three hundred and three

years and alf a studied in milan

and then now i'm a

and the later i decide to do

or mustering globally three that i'm still

doing right now in bologna

and the and i thought that you

know like

it's like i changed my path completely

like from computer science whiz three and

a remember the were also some professor

the told me but you are good

in computer science why are you crazy

and the

but still unconvinced that that was the

right thing to do because that then

the also my thesis through my bachelor

in history was about blockchain

and the my master thesis that i

still have to write will be probably

about the civic participation and the things

we are discussing

and also yeah about expectation i expect

that this podcast the will be helpful

for my thesis

at adam sure it would be

and the then what about me i

mean

i like the blue collar and

i liked novels

the yeah

yeah net know i mean mean this

this gives already a good impression exley

yeah it's it's interesting i i like

it really like this or or yet

i let us combination of like history

and technology i think this is not

probably not very common i mean actually

i express experience something very similar like

when i likes studied psychology

and then started like a second subject

in physics was also like many people

were i mean me to of course

we're confused of like this is like

very different i mean it's not too

uncommon that people study two things but

then it's normally very related to each

other air but like physics in psychology

or i mean both are more or

less natural site

since but you know it's quite far

and distant for and and i mean

if you if you study two things

which are equipped which is quite close

to each other you can always do

over you are most mostly of re

causes that you can can use for

the other subject you know if if

you want to have a veteran of

this and a bachelor doesn't you cannot

take some courses here and take some

causes the and it can you can

like interchange them

in away and save save save some

time but if she studied physics in

psychology you can exchange anything it's a

completely different and it was also like

quite a crazy feeling because like one

day sitting in a lecture a psychology

that lecture and one day sitting in

a physics or mass lecture you have

totally different people around you liked thinking

and ways like i mean not totally

different but you're certainly feel as a

difference and i could imagine that like

the difference between computer science and history

is probably similar like you don't we

have to deal with completely different perspectives

people that i dunno setting i dunno

frame that the whole frameworks different and

thinking and seeing the would

yeah absolutely and then the result though

i dunno feed these particles from italy

but the think is particle from lay

him i mean people that are studying

history that a lot of time to

resolve sort of kind of attachment to

the past

ah so than times there is like

a sort of not denying technology because

i mean of course all is three

studies they have what's up to use

the computer then cell phones

and but they use it as is

as it is like if it is

part of reality and saw you use

it

and the

yes sometimes there is not really like

an open mind

toward technology and i think it's a

pity and the university and i mean

the academic wording in some ways quite

responsible

the of these i mean i think

the shortchanges something

and the

yeah as you say like and not

lot of people studied very different things

by the way i saw some similarities

between the let's say computer science and

history

i i mean computer science is also

science of information i mean the

and information is power

it is power because the i mean

it can be seen in two different

ways like a let's say

our government decide that just some information

has to be as to gone newspapers

and saw you let's say you manipulate

people with some kind of information and

then also information is power because the

i mean based on the information you

have you can act in reality like

we can now record the podcast we

can because we know that this tool

exist that

and we know how it works and

so on

we know how to put up a

website and so on

earth so i see them as quiet

interconnected the but just because i had

may be some time to digging and

elephant the same for him for your

for psychology and physics a absolutely absolutely

and and it's it is this the

sp

brought up an interesting perspective for me

because like i mean this is also

named at least in my perception and

at like a cool quite programmatic thing

of all time because as you mentioned

like and there are so many like

technologies available tools available

knowledge basically information available and am in

my perception that is really hot like

to come up with all of this

and you need to learn more tools

not just to be able to control

these tools but also to be able

to like like work through all this

information that exist in our of

very very complex world right now and

as i think i really think that

this is also very important part of

the problem of our modern democracies in

a way that there's so much information

available and it is so hard to

come up with like filtering this information

and as

and like finding a good information in

it i i think i recently heard

in the podcast i forgot with who

it was but it was like a

he stated that like a like getting

information is not a problem you know

you can get information very quickly very

much no no issue at all the

problem is getting high quality information this

is what his heart like

like the like distinguishing like the fuel

information pieces that are really relevant between

this ocean of information pieces which are

not really relevant and i think this

is something which is so hard in

our times and also so hard for

democracy because it's so easy to like

like bring puke people in directions were

like your whole perception

of the whole world's starts to be

different from what it really is actually

ended is so hard to like extracted

the the relevant information in the sense

of what really is actually am yeah

and and as the sources something where

i think like the traditional democratic systems

are not functioning actually any more because

they are not desire

and to to like 'em tackle this

problem am and yeah this is where

we definitively didn't need new protest so

it's just just like your or perspective

just brought me back actually to this

a democracy thing

yeah democracy democracy democracy it is so

it is super important actually because sometimes

we think that the democracy i mean

i mean democracy just the award of

course but the yes and thanks we

we think finca i mean we are

not used to see violence in our

what i mean we see violence every

day

because but a different kind of violence

compared to the one that may be

people in the past i've seen

like a i've never seen a civil

war on the street i have never

had bombs on my he had the

on my house and i'm very lucky

and the

but yeah i i think that sometimes

we forget that all these democracy and

the

at the end we are talking about

the

do

i mean it it is so easy

when there is a conflict the you

we first these agree about something and

then suddenly with are killing each other

hit his

yeah i mean it yeah it is

that it is like this is it

i mean yeah that some

i i mean i mean at as

as i sat in the beginning it's

it's already very hard on a personal

level but it's even harder if you

have like groups of people in that

group group dynamic dynamics coming into i

think i think also like there was

another

another i think it's this this this

british economist who was like urban

a trader before at the sir

at the spank and and citibank i

think his or i forgot his name

but he was some

and he was also also mentioning and

that like we should we should see

it more like this that like the

unstable situation i think it was from

him that like unstable and in equal

situation in societies as much more common

than a stable situation and an equal

situation so like like when we grew

up in like the nineties

let's say it nineties early twentieth or

twenty two thousands and it was very

calm at the perspective force was always

like there is like democracy is on

the rise at this is the way

to go this is where eventually every

country will come up every country will

live in wealth and every single people

will be wealthy and yet so this

is like the story that society

he was telling us in a way

but the actual story is like if

you go back in time it was

like most of the time like inequality

a killing and like you some people's

which much with much much much more

power and money than others

and 'em it was pra like we

have to be careful that that it's

not just like that the not just

like after world war two ahead of

a small phase of prefs fifty years

where everything was wealthy and equal in

the sense at least sufficiently and that

the things turned round back not to

like

like and i mean not only to

an undesirable spirit from state but two

or more stable equal state like in

a sense that perhaps inequality is a

more stable state than equality is and

'em we have to be careful because

keeping like equality

costs a lot of effort all the

time like you know you keep the

fire running in away if you're if

you're if you're not doing something it

just goes off and that's it

and and i think this is also

a perspective that is for me at

least quite new because like i grew

up in a world were

until perhaps some few years ago and

everything was still in this perspective of

but like everything becomes just better every

year there's no way back in away

but there's no guarantee that is it

will be this way absolutely not

yeah it's it's a in a way

sir

it's a sort of kind of religious

that to like to think that the

it's gonna be different like in the

future and the i i mean all

kind of ideologies in a way but

also like a

i have faith that technology will help

other to build a better word but

still his faith am not sure about

it

do

i mean i'm quite sure

but still have to consider that is

the i'm i'm actually i'm actually very

sure but only if it's like and

if it's like a done in a

good way in what one remarked perhaps

i just wanted gary stevenson was the

name of the guy who was who's

dealing a lot with inequality at the

moment am anyway am so am

the point was sorry that i i

thought you were redacted yeah yeah bring

me back to the topic i was

the my my my my part of

for reprinting in gary was like confusing

meet a preparing the coming

well i also forgot to be

yeah well we have to say that

we are not so use the to

do what i know

and i remember i remember it was

like that technology will definitively help and

and lawyer and i think it will

because like from a very like abstract

perspective ice like this is a little

bit like a perspective that a again

from like my studies in away is

like 'em a is very high dimensional

very very very very high dimensional a

sense i mean not not and in

the dimensions and spatial dimensions but in

can generate the lot of dimensions like

a lot like this information's art nested

a lot of dimensions but we can

imagine like i like outbrain can only

imagine like up to three spatial dimensions

so our vision our like

what we can what we can imagine

it's like and stops of the three

dimensions and this makes it makes a

big mixed a problem in a sense

because very complicated or even complex things

we can only like we cannot really

grasped them because we can only see

them in a lion and like small

drawing on two dimensions or maximum of

three damage

it's so what we actually do when

we do science or when we think

or when we observe is like bring

this high dimensional information space intellect with

maximum of three dimensions and this of

course is always wrong very very wrong

so we need to be very careful

to like get the correct perspective on

these tooth

three dimensions to make as like as

least arrow is possible innocence and i

think what like what the or the

the opportunity of technology is to help

us doing this dimension in the dimensional

reduction and a very good way so

this is this is stephen as a

one hundred percent sure actually

the that this is the opportunity but

the dangerous that we like and am

i'm not sure i mean this is

properly your point in the sense the

dangerous that we use it in the

wrong way because what i said only

holds if we use it in the

right way if you use it as

an assistant or like perhaps i'm i'm

spoiling a little bit but in the

first ep

results i think there's a common sense

between the guests that and like technology

should in at least in the society

and and democratic processes only be an

assistant and never like take over the

the process and am completely but i

i is certainly see some danger that

discotheque or happen like that some

one says okay let's build in a

i that actually is doing the dishes

disc decisions for us it will be

better than what we do in whatever

way am or that we i dunno

whatever system we develop and like just

leave it to the system because we're

lazy you know often humans like we

are very lazy so it's very easy

to do is and then it then

i think it can be can become

a danger

for but as as as long as

we use it as an assistant that

helps us to like reduced inflammation space

to to like what we can understand

and to like make use of the

information we have and extract useful information

i think it will benefit definitively

absolutely the things about the multi dimensional

earth basis is super interesting and the

i am thinking that the

these ai that called organize or society

by itself or i think this is

the most dangerous thing because i'm sure

someone will propose to use that the

system in the future as you said

no one asked as the to roofing

democracy

i

but democracy as we see it now

he's also structure of power

and so like i see it functional

for the people who has who have

power now to have on the i

system that does everything by itself without

any

the needs to explain the choices that

the i will suggest and in a

way i found this is the quite

the similar to how some technicolor the

siege technical political decision were taken

was in the previous years i mean

i'm thinking about the economy like most

of the people do not understand anything

about the economy also

like i do not understand honestly why

we spend so much money on some

staffer and not on health and not

an education that is super important thought

i cannot understand is but there are

people that have a lot of economic

knowledge and technical

the knowledge that said know we have

to spend a or i dunno could

be for on could be for private

company for many things

and this quite hard right now to

debate about the if it's right or

not the and a thinking that the

if event to live there will be

une i that decide for everyone

then is not going to be possible

to or pause

because we are not smarter than i

an ai

i mean we are smarter but in

a different way

and so effing that that is also

the reason why i thought that the

it is so important to

to take care of these the

i mean to talk about a possible

governance system that are not a black

box busy yeah yeah absolutely and and

i think i think to to adhere

some some point is like if if

and a i would take over the

democratic decision making process it would basically

bring the power to those

who decide what kind of data is

used to train the i because like

the data that is used to train

the a i decides eventually what the

a i will do innocence and am

i think i think it's it's basically

just a shift of power not like

a change of power innocence there will

be some company organization

one whatever that has like the power

of of training this a i and

this the those are the ones who

have the power of maybe not deciding

but at least influencing in which way

the decisions will come out and even

though is so if even if this

this organization that has behind has good

intentions it still from from perspective of

the process a questionable thing if if

we if we really would like have

that way and i think in principle

this this this points out a very

and

deep problem actually i think because i

think i think i think the the

problem is to 'em to develop a

democracy and i think this is the

stage where where we are right now

to develop any doing with democracy which

bring oust out kind of collectively intelligent

results without sacrificing the

opportunity from everyone to take part because

you can easily build technocracy you know

where you have some experts however you

decide on these experts but you have

some experts deciding on what is best

to do and i am i bet

that it probably it if it's like

group of scientists would the to get

stuck together for every

like topic and what is site on

that like independent from company decisions independent

from other irrational processes spices whatever would

focus on finding a good solution would

not be the best ever but it

would be much better than what we

have now but it would ask the

question of that that to miss see

like like who was the one

deciding who the experts iron away and

but in principle this is what we

need so we need some way of

system that allows us to have like

more intelligent collective decisions without sacrificing did

the demote democratic put in it at

the end i think this is the

challenge with to face of this is

where we may use to

technology for may maybe i mean when

when i said to technology i i

always also include science in a way

that in know when we talk about

technology we always only think unlike computers

or industry or stuff like this like

more or less physical things but when

when i said as i also mean

like insights of out like

as humans in a way you know

if if neuroscience makes progress if the

understanding of our brain makes progress this

also helps a lot or or or

like like like competent if science and

direction of complex social systems may crosses

progress as helps a lot of designing

your systems because we better know how

we interact like like for example the

game theory you know this brings a

lot of

lot of insights about how humans interact

under certain conditions and at us have

to design systems where you can bring

out the best for everyone in the

way

yeah i think how about the you

mentioned late now complex social system and

that could be also sort of from

do

ah maybe description of the podcast

because because actually do

the idea behind a passcode is the

to interview people that have knowledge about

certain topics i mean there could be

professor of that it could be a

researcher duke be politician a journalist the

independent scholar i dunno the thudded something

specific and that can

tell us the the the product of

the research or we could discuss with

them or about possible the possibilities

and the i mean this also create

a sort of network between the people

and the i mean it was before

the podcast

when we were just chatting that the

i was saying that i had the

impression that the at then the

i mean there are people inside this

field but not so many so they

all know each other after a certain

time after that you were for five

year on the same project they all

know you and they all know your

project

and the and and yeah maybe it's

a complex such a system that will

try to roofing democracy and as you

said maybe this is not the end

of democracy maybe this is just the

beginning

of a new kind of democracy but

more it's on delaware

where everyone can ever more possibilities

i

not the where everyone is not so

tied by their social or regions also

so something more equal for everyone

the absolute looking at the same time

like at the same time bringing out

like

kind of better results like

nick better it and i mean it's

it's hard to define better but i

would say better in the sense that

if you will include a lot of

people in the process and it should

be like and it it it the

research would come out in a in

like like a reasonable time in a

sense you know your i mean you

can have like with one hundred people

am a consensus space discussion with a

very good result in the end but

it will take so much time and

net your perhaps willing to sacrifice a

little bit of the result perhaps the

results in better with another system am

to two again like a one hundreds

like one hundred times faster process away

them but

but

and yet but but but it it

has if to find a sweet point

in that sense you know we we

we don't want to sacrifice too much

of of the result am of the

quality of the result or and we

don't want to sacrifice too much of

the efficiency of the speed of the

process and but like that then my

perception

the current democratic systems are like the

kind of both has not fulfilled you

know it's it's yeah it's it's not

that fast not that good results not

that efficient i mean i mean it's

not that i mean we can help

we can be happy that we have

it but

i think there's a lot of like

room for improvement i think at least

i feel so yeah absolutely seems like

are sort of mvp a little bit

buggy has

yeah yeah that you say okay no

sbragia tecate works the but yeah please

work more on it the we can

see you're heading at the right direction

yeah

please come back a little bit later

when it's a little bit more matured

yeah exactly so i think this is

the

i

yeah like investigating about the possibilities like

not just with people that are super

pros the or

about the new digital governance system it's

also nice to hear some critical voice

and time also i mean because the

result there is a lot of from

i

as you said the if we used

technology acknowledging a good way we can

change the word or the system in

a good way but he saw easy

to do something wrong though i really

think that deserves to be like something

bigger

like really a collective process a complex

social

collective system process i dunno

are also thinking about the that in

the future

but this will open another chapter and

i mean may be constitution will be

written and in a different way and

fink about smart contracts so not just

we phrases and articles but like in

a very precise and mathematical away or

and also these are lol

variety that contract that constitution in our

collective way and then thinking about that

the

more minds more people are participating that

in this process

yeah

and then the outcome will be proportional

to the effort put the

yeah yeah absolutely so overt is this

really opens up a new new paradigm

and pratt process should we should not

extend to much on this because we

are already like much much later like

that just as much longer than we

have expected anyhow i i i have

to put something in here so am

i think i think this does related

little bit to this

phrase or called it's law and which

is especially relevant and like the structure

in web three community where like if

you read a smart contract at somehow

defines help you for people will behave

am still very impressed like for example

if you look at the ethereum sticking

mechanism or also from from leg

from other projects the sticky mechanisms this

is like really of and in my

perception is just like already have very

well developed a collective intelligence mechanism in

a way because like at counterbalances i

i dunno if it's attentions and that

way but it's it's like a is

a social algorithm that is perhaps a

better word like you know it it

counterbalance the so many interests and mean

bitcoin was probably the first one but

now it going to completely different level

it it counterbalances all interests in a

way that like the whole group benefits

from it and i find a super

interesting and i think there's a lot

of more potential in the future and

yeah and and i i

it also has the potential to like

bring code into law in some some

way and but this of course and

is then are like brings up the

question like whose deciding about the court

of course the about as you mentioned

this is then the question like we

would then be required to collaboratively write

code and

this sustained the core of the decisions

in a sense so we have to

find ways to call together in way

m two weeks indirectly defined our laws

and that that we like

yeah that we use

yeah but then quite the optimistic i

mean many times i thought about that

the way people in computer science are

collaborating and are doing it in a

very quick way i'm i think yours

about people that are just developing a

product i dunno like could be microsoft

could be google

i mean they are very efficient in

collaborating

and many times i thought okay what

if we applied these to politics like

what if people that study that something

else could be philosophy and topology psychology

if they use the same way the

sim technology and the so it is

a collaborative process and one thinks that

the and

i am i mean i think it

will happen in a natural way

but like to include the as much

as the

different point of view

the like different point of view would

help

the collective process to grow and effigy

also the disease are in a way

a male ward

the one about technology

maybe now the the there is of

course some interest the

i also from a i mean there

are a lot of women that the

the

but interesting projects that the

yeah i mean the that did the

lot to the like it when i

was looking for guests the to interview

i saw that this is something the

were more males are active and the

yeah it it just saw a thought

that ahead and

because the and yeah also about some

readings that there was the doing and

also if we look at the past

like most of the worth were made

by males must have the power will

or was hauled by man yeah means

and the and so like if we

are

thinking or building a new word for

everyone

i mean that there has to be

different skills but also

different point of views and the the

different point of views are also given

by the experience that we have a

do

leaving in the body we have

citing this is also important to

the yeah and i think that that

lies also like the question of like

power again in it because like for

example if like he would write like

like code that is law in a

sense for for example the blockchain systems

that really like asked the question fool

is capable or who has the power

of

like taking part in this i mean

this is something that for example or

primavera de filippi of interesting yeah fitted

for you're laying radha wanted to start

reading soon hopefully have some time soon

am or also like april snia for

example the who are like warning am

it was a little bit more intense

than prima very different dp but in

principle of warning lake and saying

cape like if if we've rights let

like law in coat in a sense

we need to be careful of who

is like doing it actually and and

like whose governing this in away and

if it's only like a few hits

a male programmers that have the power

to take part because the those are

the only ones understanding like co two

coats my contract for exempt

will and then yeah then you have

again like a small group of people

who can decide on how like cold

x this is coming into existence and

and property much more complex power structure

to practice is structures especially in the

blockchain word in or like a lot

some people have a lot more tokens

or coins than others and have more

power and deciding what comes

in and what does not coming in

and so on 'em yeah so this

is also a very complicated topic but

eventually i think it's like this before

we the lake should start implementing democracy

and blockchain we should make sure that

like the participation process is like at

atlas

sufficiently equal in a way

yeah absolutely

and a i see the potential like

to to not stop these episodes like

we called talk for another three hours

yeah

lovely yeah but we can't we can

take this as a chance to through

a to aunt and let's let's say

this way i mean this is anyhow

an idea we had like we just

we just reschedule it so for we

stop here and we just continue i

dunno in some time again

and because there was anyhow this idea

of lake or having some reflections on

some episodes and i really i really

think there are in the in the

upcoming episodes there are some very interesting

and things that we could discuss and

that could influence or discussion yeah let's

let's stop your perhaps i i quickly

just wanted to drop like a like

if

people are already listening to this i

would ask them to subscribe and if

they are listening on youtube i would

ask him to like to subscribe answering

the notification bell of course

mirko a cricket wanted to an urge

to motivate this and he had with

us i think we can close right

yeah thank you because i am not

really good at the asking to tomb

bobsleigh and so on so thank have

lucky that your and yeah absolutely lake

we also if someone is listening

leica we had the some ideas about

the also some let's call them alive

of discussion that may be were maybe

we can command the the episodes of

the podcast or maybe we can commence

some other topic or like invite guests

their listen we can not

brainstorm altogether about gimme vacation or some

other kind of topics and the

and yet i i will said that

the

this could benefit everyone i mean the

people lead that listen to the podcast

the podcast itself as the people that

are working civic that the people that

are struggling to raise money or then

offered their project

and so on like let's collaborate

yeah absolutely absolutely fair perhaps one one

thing it just comes to my mind

them to like the listeners to just

took to understand the roads because they

may asked during this episode so like

and a central will be the one

like asking the questions and during the

interviews and i would occasionally be here

for discussions and things like we did

now

and now just just say if this

clarified that people are not confused when

like for the next few episodes they

are not see my face again

yeah we have a sort of front

and back and the system of but

it can change in the and adapter

underway right

a pocket

i cannot thank you and the thank

you to

bye bye

bye