so welcome on another episodes or may
be the first episode the of democracy
innovators podcast and the our guests of
today that is not just the guests
the is a catalog columbia haley's
is it is right there pronunciation it's
i would say close close enough
and the so which which one is
the right one at misha illness would
be the right one okay and the
actually my name is allison up
and the yeah and this is the
is the first episode of something that
we
it's it's around on one year that
we were discussing about this podcast right
yeah so actually like yeah i think
one year ago we met somehow and
there was the city around a little
bit at but when it became more
concrete i think end of november last
year or at beginning of december sub
someone somewhat around this time i think
and the i i thought why i
wanted to do a podcast about the
i mean civic tech or political deck
this kind of things
and the
i mean i i think that is
interesting for me to talk about the
this kind of topics but he also
thought that many times and this is
something we also talked about the that
the
the sometime you are lacking the real
world you talk about the governance you
talk about the technology and people look
at you as if you're crazy
and the also that am i crazy
yeah right right it's it's it's it's
a feeling that i know very well
but but i think i think there's
maybe one one shot story i can
tell because some it was it was
i think very very important for for
like by i'm also doing it now
is like when i was in school
i think it was seventh or eighth
grade or so there was a
the teacher and politics i think it
was the first great way we had
politics as as the subject and 'em
he was like introducing or trying to
like him explain a little bit why
or like motivate light why we have
the democracy we have and he was
like explaining like so just just assume
like your
that we have as the society and
you want to take decisions at it
was somehow framed already in a democratic
setting and but the question was if
if we want to have a democratic
decisions and if you want to have
a democratic system how can we do
it and he said like one of
the obvious most of your things as
you just meet i mean if you're
a smaller group of people use the
together discuss find a solution right perhaps
do
down and execute wherever you have decided
on but if you have a lot
of people around me this was in
germany so like eighty million people and
taking decisions together it's just unfeasible you
cannot collect eighty million people in the
stadium and have a large discussion in
some way whatever way the should be
so so why he wanted to come
to us to the point that like
it's totally ok
obvious to have representatives and to vote
for representatives that kind of represent the
'em the the whole population and then
forces this representative for some time and
takes all these decisions in a smaller
group where decisions are more feasible but
them but over time i think it's
big
same cleared it like i mean already
earlier than this but for me it
became more and more clear that they
are some problems with his approach like
a lot of problems and a i
think a lot of people who will
listen to this a preview well aware
of this and and put it like
a little bit straighter the point i
would say it's like psychological biases that
is like or problem we have like
people are not like rational people they
are not electing like
good representatives in away i mean were
very work very very good example in
the u s and m like a
like this is a problem we have
to handle and this simpler representation has
some problems and also like the complexity
that people are like like globally like
it you elect them for four years
but it within those four years they
have like they they take 'em
they take responsibility for all the topics
like they really have to know everything
and the more complex the world becomes
the more problematic this become so a
lot of problems it up yet well
aware but at the same time and
we have like a lot of new
technologies coming in like we have the
internet it's not not like not like
at an old one hundred years ago
where people
really needed to move physically to another
place to discuss or to exchange opinions
or it maybe they could have done
it with a letter but this would
still be very like inefficient and we
can do this more efficient know and
we have a lot of tools available
social media a i blocked and other
stuff and yeah the question is from
this perspective at least for me this
questions from
this perspective aren't we perhaps
just in the very beginning of the
dimmock democratic development or entity and development
of democracies isn't isn't the system we
have not like the end of democracies
what we sometimes belief to think when
we're coming out of school like thinking
like this is the perfect system and
does this is how it should be
forever but instead thinking like this is
just the beginning this was just the
vet
three first step of developing democracies am
and as was like based on what
we could do when was feasible to
that time but it's perhaps time to
like advance from this point and yeah
i think this is this is for
me what this podcast is about like
starting to bring together or these new
perspectives and
we are from from people who thought
a lot about all about this radio
absolutely was like her as i was
seeing
when asked myself am i crazy about
thinking about things that do not exist
the i mean as use i mean
we ever the democracy or system that
works in a certain way we elect
with some one the should represent has
the but as you as you said
not all with that person is able
do to do a good job and
i remember like a
i a professor from contemporary three and
he was talking about represent and so
politicians and actual in italy wherever lot
of cases of corruption also some politician
the thorpe you wonder like who called
the vote for them
at your like white
and the he will thing or that
the they're not
a special case like a that the
person that politician that wishing keys the
particular ignore and the
it just one person extracted from the
population
and also these the i mean this
makes things way more complex because the
it means that there is also a
cultural problem not just the like a
political problem i mean then everything is
political of course
and the i'm thinking that the what
with me finca
i
about the technology that cool helper people
in deciding and discussing
is the is the fact that the
if we look about the if we
look at the pasta
a conflict the that is i do
not tree tree and to your sold
or more could be like religion war
eaten in europe we are detached from
that the topic i mean maybe we
are not religious maybe we could be
cattolica protests and but by the way
we
we are not sought touched emotionally attached
to that the conflict and so we
can see the we refer some
in in a clear way
we can see that there were both
parties were ripe in a way they
had their own reasons took to say
something and eventually also the fight the
and so on
and while it when the there is
something when there is a conflict the
in the present then we are way
more
the attached a we have a lot
of emotions attached to that event and
so we are not lucid the enough
to
to think in a rational way
and when using the word rational is
is quite dangerous because a different kind
of
logic and rationality exist the
i
and yeah i thought that the technology
i mean cool help us because as
you said in the past we could
just the sun letters or like a
using this kind of technology that the
the and were like streets and the
there was the pasta system
and nowadays maybe we can use technology
to
to decide in a a na more
or example way
we can create create different kind of
system we can create money that expire
eventually we can create on a different
kind of money one money when you
are paid one money when you have
to pay someone i dunno like a
lot of possibilities and the i i
think that this podcast the could be
a space
to discovered his face interview may be
researcher that are exploring new kind of
monetary system your kind of for a
decision making them your kind of for
also way of living why not
i mean you are used to see
towns in a certain way i mean
the town that we know now but
what about the future like i'll i've
also seen the and
i mean in italy before like the
pandemic no one was talking about as
marked working remote working
and now people are still doing it
may be at a couple of days
every week so i am thinking about
the that the person could could actually
live their hometown and may believe outside
and and and so i think that
the civic decker yes it it is
technology
it is also participation with technology but
it's also discussing and thinking about the
the society of the future
yeah yeah yeah absolutely i thought so
i i think i think there is
an interesting point in this because like
like you can you can go this
i mean even if we start like
from this very societal level in a
sense we can let go down to
the very basic conversations you can have
just with like one person i mean
you can you can have a very
tough discussion already with wow
one person that can be very complicated
can become very complicated especially when like
i mean often if you have a
conflict and you're in a very like
resource rich situations and then it's mostly
doable but especially when like resources went
down and you have like really not
enough time not enough at and or
money whatever is me
missing and then you have a conflict
and it starts to eat up very
quickly and the only thing that helps
like to to to start these are
true to to 'em to sit like
soft the conflicts as like a very
good communication style of training a lot
of information available and stuff like this
and and this is like from like
like in into dimensions in the way
like the podcast could like go
from from the very basic psychological way
of southern conflicts up to like the
societal level of like scaling up to
this high level of the slaving conflicts
because i mean eventually all are also
on the high level it all basis
on discussions on an old evelyn a
sense
am and and yeah and and sites
also interesting like to understand or find
guests here in this podcast that could
help us understanding in a way like
how do these conflicts of all falcon
we solve them on a small level
and how can we solve them on
a larger level ends
and how can we include especially on
larger levels how can we include like
technologies that we have like a i
am i dunno over prepped prep cirm
blockchain perhaps i dunno as scientific and
insights from collective intelligence from complex social
systems whatever whatever is around there or
just pilot pop-up politics
since sorry economic science everything face fiscally
yeah absolutely and i also thought about
the i mean asked myself what are
my expectation for this podcast
and the you know you
one could expect that the podcast i
dunno you became reacher because the podcast
the but i i i think that
at the end is to learn something
i mean
and we already recorded some episodes and
the it was super interesting to talk
to
to the people that the i interviewed
and the yeah that that is there
def the things isla i liked more
because of the every fingers about the
i mean the this also make me
think about the the system we are
leaving een where we usually learn when
we are younger
and then the we don't have to
learn any more we know everything the
and this is not true and i
think we should the
i mean several times we add the
also discussion about education
and though i mean this is not
so connected with civic decker ah but
this is the cool thing about civic
decker that is connected with everything
yeah absolutely with everything that as they're
concerned with a society yeah absolutely and
and and and as a like like
also like from from from what i
said like if if we're talking about
society of is it of course includes
also the individual and howard enrich individual
works yeah yeah and and and i
think i think as another interesting point
in what you said because it brings
she drinks a spec also to this
point where way said that there sometimes
this feeling of like feeling a little
bit crazy of what we're doing you
know like engaging for like new democratic
development but actually no one has asked
for it i mean you know everyone
is just asking for it we need
to like stay strong and our democratic
approach in prince
couple whatever this means but and as
not much around like that politicians are
saying like we need a your way
of thinking democracy this simply does not
happen so no one i mean no
one is asking for reinventing democracy and
sense as so that's why it feels
a little bit crazy like investing significant
amount of time often like in our
case but also in the case of
many
the other people with and like very
fuel or perhaps even no funding at
all available thinking about these things and
i think actually there's also an interesting
thing of this podcast what is also
kind of my expectant a exp expectation
actually is that like when we hear
to more voices in this 'em and
as and as
like space of people were thinking about
things maybe overtime it it feels a
little bit more common you don't like
hearing to someone was worked in this
space for like five ten years perhaps
maybe in a small niche and another
one in a small nice working on
this for three years in another one
in latin like one perhaps and more
technical and technological nice from the other
one may be in a little bit
more
at and all sociological nice whatever but
then hearing all these voices together after
some time am i think they are
there will they will stay the impression
of i mean we're not alone i
mean there are a lot of people
thinking about as a lot of people
innovating thinks in this direction and i
think this will help us also to
not feel so crazy anymore
yeah exactly and is is there
could be the main reason why we
are doing this
to not feel alone
yes yes the in a way
and the
but he has been there at then
and also like like of course some
a just edit and know at some
some some practical things are in and
tubs of expectations like 'em like just
to get inspired of caused by some
other so am i mean i had
the the the lucky chance to hear
to the first recordings you have you
have done so far and for me
it was very interesting to he
those was as i am actually much
more than i have expected and 'em
and really like people as and and
also like at what what of saucer
little bit surprising for me it's not
like just just like people are like
coming up for like i dunno they
have just started half a year ago
and it's shaken like you know just
the hype thing and and a leave
again but there
some people who are aware read like
years of the time investing and thinking
in this direction and as really feels
like there's something going on and as
chance to to develop things am and
also like on a technological site i
mean this is something we're yeah this
book us real property of while the
dot in the future but also like
in introducing ordered him to technological
developments because like when we talk about
a i were talking about the risks
were talking about how it can change
industry may be we talk about how
he can harm social media it can
how it can harm society but not
so much the opportunities and 'em perhaps
we can put some effort or some
more perspective on this
yeah absolutely and i think he also
about the
do you remember when we first met
the yet around one year ago and
we also talk to other people that
were working on similar projects and them
and they realized that we also had
the some similar
mental processes laker we were that goal
in the same point though we were
motivated by something quite see miller
i dunno we started the for a
fee and could beebe psychology physics the
three a computer science the and there
were all these are come things between
the
these individuals that came from all over
the world but the far
kind of similar attitude the to do
something that the as you said no
one required before they can one asked
for our new kind of democracy morrow
reads on to lender different from the
one we have
and the i think it will be
interesting like to was the to say
something about the other
like who we are
yeah sure yep yeah shell shall i
start or what would you like gap
yeah yeah sure i can okay are
so he a little bits to my
background so
actually i have a quite long kind
of jose academic background so let that
a little bit earlier perhaps so after
school i was one of the last
year's were like the military service was
mandatory in germany and i are in
germany at what it was at that
time possible to do like a soap
it is somehow a voluntary social year
as replacement for this military service where
decide to for and i was an
like always interested in understanding like how
the like how the humans work in
a way but also in how the
world works in away but the humans
were a little bit more in my
me and focus and then i decided
to with this of
voluntary social year in a like an
addiction therapy institution like therapy institute for
a drug addicted people for a year
and this was quite interesting and i
stuck with this idea or art like
within this year a girl a like
strongly decided that i would like to
the study psychology but i also that
was key
interesting developed development for me decided to
definitively not willing to be a to
to do therapy or because i always
had the feeling like
you know if if you're working with
directed people you realize at some point
that all these problems that happened in
their life and is were like adults
are are like like that the province
secured already under titled or at or
latest in their youth are so if
you look at their like life history
you realize okay there's a clear reason
why the
they they end up ended up their
way and where they are now and
always always felt like it's good that
we have therapists it's very important to
a therapists no question but for me
as an individual i always felt like
am too late you know i'm i'm
i i don't want to like how
people at a stage where you cannot
really have any more you can just
make it a little bit more comfortable
put
be caught the perhaps you can also
help a little bit but for me
it always felt like am too late
and then i was always thinking okay
how like worse whereas the excess and
actually i mean your you mentioned this
already at some point before actually i
thought i would like to improve education
like the education system because i thought
this is like were like as a
society you can have most excess and
like improving the abilities and skills of
people
air but over time has changed anyhow
i still decided to start psychology which
was a good choice i think but
our within the first year area i
realized like it some somehow not method
toilet not know the the methodology was
not like rent the resume to
not enough movies social psychologists in social
sense already equates like
in statistical methods are the like field
but it was still not enough and
i've had always like i need more
like hot skills in the sense am
and then as that to also likes
are studying physics and at the same
time around this time i also developed
this hypocrisy project and working online
like how like decision making could be
scaled and then like i did some
more everything at the same time i
was also working as a freelance at
that time for web development to like
fund my studies and and after on
five years i was able to like
finished both like the bachelor and psychology
individual and physics and also the advocacy
project was like
going on and like i developed my
my a reputable open skills but i
wanted to go i thing i wanted
to go a little bit deeper into
the like method of methodology
yeah the the methods part
m and or i i sought that
time that like ahead different things of
course my mind it was never that
clear but at the time i i
had the feeling like am that perhaps
sciences the way i would like to
go and if i would look like
the go to the way of science
then like statistics is what you need
because this is like kind of the
language of science i mean it's not
only the law
which of signs if you want us
to understand how things like work in
the nature it's always good to have
statistics available because it gives you a
little bit like certainty about what's your
what's correlates and what doesn't correlate in
away like hubs little bit to overcome
psychological biases and way
and that was a very good choice
a think because i was not only
learning a lot of was a bot
statistics in general it also helped me
to he likes like get a solid
mouth understand it because even though i
studied physics in my bachelor a i
think am i was especially was not
able to really grasp the essence of
moth moth of mathematik
six and but this was came down
on and in this statistics a muster
and i also got first insights into
machine learning and as was also quite
interesting and very unexpected because they had
not thought about machine learning at the
time but that was the time around
i think it was two thousand and
fifteen tooth and sixteen to seventeen somewhat
around where
like deep learning started to come up
and it was a for me quite
interesting time in and like digging into
this and i learn python island like
various building very simple neural networks and
then during ramesses i realized there is
something interesting like an interesting field called
computation
neuroscience i was never hearing from this
before but at the time i was
like it was the first time that
the heard of it
and them in this field i thought
of it or i have found an
opportunity in away because i thought okay
this is perhaps like the best chance
to understand like human nature in away
because you're going down to the neurons
simulating them on your computer and can
check if it works or if it
doesn't work you know you have a
really good like check
in away and you can always you
get inspirations from biologic from biology some
from like experimental neuroscience and and you
get results from your computer simulations and
you can always compare it indiana turned
out it i was during that time
always not so sure if it was
really a goods choice i was like
like probably every ph
he is striking struggling a lot during
phd time if it's really good thing
to to continue with it or to
just drop it eventually i made it
in a finished it but i'm still
today not not sure if it really
like was a good benefits for me
or if it would have been better
to like start something else earlier
but i dunno i for sure i
gained a lot of insights that work
that that are available in any way
excellent in in and in any case
and and
yeah and after that i moved to
sweden with my family that there was
just like about wanted to use just
pure survival there was not much going
on in my life otherwise than just
trying to handle my two kids and
like renovating the house and trying to
your cat of survived the situation and
was just last year that has started
to though
inc about like okay what what next
in the sense you know what do
i want to take a job i
mean with a phd in the sphere
to have good job opportunities but it
also means you have to work full-time
and not much time at home
or or would you like to focus
on freelancing or what you do like
like to be the crazy guy that
tries to to help improving democracy and
a somehow decided mostly for the letter
and i activated some like a a
h i tried to to go back
a little bit into science but the
sent from taught in yet another direction
like a little bit more from the
direction of applied i t design processes
like collective intelligence perspective which is still
like somehow connected but the up www
were different in a sense i met
good context with professors to start to
support me a little bit but still
without funding and still freelancing to to
keep me like to keep his surviving
air with the hope that the sometimes
plays out i also looking a little
bit into like entrepreneurship liquor have no
part of a company and perhaps hunting
and
one this year let's see
yeah yeah but this is this is
where i'm now and am i'm kind
of just starting and actually when when
when i met you with this at
year of the having the podcast for
me it was quite clear that this
is kind of and be opportunity not
not only because you're like a like
i always thought your like the perfect
person of like interviewing people in this
topic there
but also like because it it could
bring me into a position of talking
little bit of what i am thinking
'em could like a benefit my project
a little bit or even if it's
just indirectly but still and and
yeah and also like bring the at
as as we said before in or
expectations part in the sense like bring
this whole topic forward innocence and and
making it a little bit more public
and also like get insights from other
people are making connections collaborations i mean
and and as this is not something
that is only for me a benefit
or for you this is hopeful the
also benefit of for all the other
people like for the
the listeners but also for the guests
who may be realized that there are
some one else around doing the same
same thing for five years and day
we're just not aware of it perhaps
am yeah that the sir was poor
probably little bit longer
no not the thank you for also
for the kenworth i was thinking that
the and is a particular field that
may be already the other times
but like when you'll find someone that
is doing the same another in another
field the year for that person is
a competitor while here a person is
a collaborator and also we from another
found that you also know we were
joking about the
okay so on want to steal our
worker do it please
yes absolutely if that's what i was
always say exact like i i met
some people who said that air yeah
like with your project our aren't you
afraid that someone just copied called when
you do everything open source and you
like document everything at every every one
can understand what you're doing and i'm
like no i mean i would be
happy if people would do like
yeah please please do it
i want to read novels i want
to just the walk walking yeah of
course yeah
yeah this is something very exciting because
the i see that the all these
the yeah all the people that they
met the lake and
i believe that the something can be
changed and so yeah what benefits me
or you also benefit someone else and
also this is something specific about the
technology will say where if i write
a program then you can use the
same program and another person to
you don't have to write it three
times
and are many times i thought what
is lacking
in the real world the
ideas for a like is there are
the only things that are applicable we
found the losing their original i will
say maybe a fire in some way
yes his yep
yet and at at it doesn't cost
any additional resources to share it in
a way
yeah yeah exactly
and the
m yeah i but sweats vets for
to repeat before he starts a traitor
she like drifting in another direction what
about you so your background and
so my background is a quite mix
the and confused the i will say
and because the i e
i mean i can say that i
started the for some a scientific studies
in ice-cold
but back then i also really like
it licked her utter i mean i
was reading a lot of novels but
on my side
not for school and i never liked
lichter arturo when i was studying eat
that school
and the
i remember i was not motivated so
at a certain time my left eye
school
i was a in the
i mean we have five years of
high school in italy i was at
the third year and a how do
you say when they are
i mean you have to repeat one
year basically
so but i really i was not
motivated the for me i had the
impression i was not learning that everything
was a sort of kind of exercise
but not release something useful
and the and so i went to
this evening school about computer science
and the i also started working his
arm helpdesk her system administrator out the
desk and they also left the evening
school
so i was we followed any diploma
and the i work there for almost
five years
then i remember like do
one day i thought okay and wasting
my life i mean there was also
my boss sir i think i was
twenty
three twenty florida remember
and my boss was around forty and
the told me i was your age
when it came here and so i
thought okay is the moment i have
to great
otherwise i i will wake up one
day in a place that the
i mean is not something that i
choose it just happen
so i went nah he actually left
the
that place
and i started writing and at the
same time also wing backpacks
had this thing like i was actually
wanted the backpack but there were quite
expensive so i found the do a
community a forum where people were suing
their backpacks and also some of them
they were selling
and the what he thought is the
okay they are suing a backpack if
they can do it i also can
do it i mean and the at
the end i spent so much more
like i spent a lot comparing the
i could have both are a very
nice backpack
but the may be able to not
have had the experience
and the
yeah then i went back to see
high school
the same evening guy school and the
i had to do two years saw
in the same chair that during the
morning are used by a normal student
and
yeah for two years i went there
was quite interesting else matter some interesting
people
and the it was also very very
interesting for me because is it is
different when you're a kid the you're
just there because he have to
when you are a bit older
the you understand things a little bit
the better
and also it was a little bit
different because when a when there for
the first time there was there
how is called where you write them
becca blacker
rep blackboard or black yeah yeah exactly
the record and the when i went
there for the second time there was
a a touchscreen
so it was also very differently nah
technological advance
and the yeah i mean i got
my diploma but then i thought okay
the i don't want to
working day t i mean i saw
that all my friends that were working
in the tito are working for some
be company for a banker
or something like this while i was
very
i'm in back then i was working
on a prototype of back panel because
i have back pain i was i
had back pain was when i was
studying
i have a between when i sit
down so that's why i thought okay
maybe i'll back panel equal help me
and the
i mean i released it as a
open our open source i dunno if
someone has built it i dunno
yeah but still is a project i
i think in the future will be
interesting i dunno maybe ten years twenty
years i will go back to work
on you
and them
yeah i mean i decided to the
studies three
i
is something that the i mean i
think that every one of face is
a interested by what happened in the
pasta but not every a fuzzy is
interested in studying history
saw
i was interested in the pasta but
i never had the time to sit
down kamath eyes everything to make the
timeline to remember
to the connections and so yeah i
did it for three hundred and three
years and alf a studied in milan
and then now i'm a
and the later i decide to do
or mustering globally three that i'm still
doing right now in bologna
and the and i thought that you
know like
it's like i changed my path completely
like from computer science whiz three and
a remember the were also some professor
the told me but you are good
in computer science why are you crazy
and the
but still unconvinced that that was the
right thing to do because that then
the also my thesis through my bachelor
in history was about blockchain
and the my master thesis that i
still have to write will be probably
about the civic participation and the things
we are discussing
and also yeah about expectation i expect
that this podcast the will be helpful
for my thesis
at adam sure it would be
and the then what about me i
mean
i like the blue collar and
i liked novels
the yeah
yeah net know i mean mean this
this gives already a good impression exley
yeah it's it's interesting i i like
it really like this or or yet
i let us combination of like history
and technology i think this is not
probably not very common i mean actually
i express experience something very similar like
when i likes studied psychology
and then started like a second subject
in physics was also like many people
were i mean me to of course
we're confused of like this is like
very different i mean it's not too
uncommon that people study two things but
then it's normally very related to each
other air but like physics in psychology
or i mean both are more or
less natural site
since but you know it's quite far
and distant for and and i mean
if you if you study two things
which are equipped which is quite close
to each other you can always do
over you are most mostly of re
causes that you can can use for
the other subject you know if if
you want to have a veteran of
this and a bachelor doesn't you cannot
take some courses here and take some
causes the and it can you can
like interchange them
in away and save save save some
time but if she studied physics in
psychology you can exchange anything it's a
completely different and it was also like
quite a crazy feeling because like one
day sitting in a lecture a psychology
that lecture and one day sitting in
a physics or mass lecture you have
totally different people around you liked thinking
and ways like i mean not totally
different but you're certainly feel as a
difference and i could imagine that like
the difference between computer science and history
is probably similar like you don't we
have to deal with completely different perspectives
people that i dunno setting i dunno
frame that the whole frameworks different and
thinking and seeing the would
yeah absolutely and then the result though
i dunno feed these particles from italy
but the think is particle from lay
him i mean people that are studying
history that a lot of time to
resolve sort of kind of attachment to
the past
ah so than times there is like
a sort of not denying technology because
i mean of course all is three
studies they have what's up to use
the computer then cell phones
and but they use it as is
as it is like if it is
part of reality and saw you use
it
and the
yes sometimes there is not really like
an open mind
toward technology and i think it's a
pity and the university and i mean
the academic wording in some ways quite
responsible
the of these i mean i think
the shortchanges something
and the
yeah as you say like and not
lot of people studied very different things
by the way i saw some similarities
between the let's say computer science and
history
i i mean computer science is also
science of information i mean the
and information is power
it is power because the i mean
it can be seen in two different
ways like a let's say
our government decide that just some information
has to be as to gone newspapers
and saw you let's say you manipulate
people with some kind of information and
then also information is power because the
i mean based on the information you
have you can act in reality like
we can now record the podcast we
can because we know that this tool
exist that
and we know how it works and
so on
we know how to put up a
website and so on
earth so i see them as quiet
interconnected the but just because i had
may be some time to digging and
elephant the same for him for your
for psychology and physics a absolutely absolutely
and and it's it is this the
sp
brought up an interesting perspective for me
because like i mean this is also
named at least in my perception and
at like a cool quite programmatic thing
of all time because as you mentioned
like and there are so many like
technologies available tools available
knowledge basically information available and am in
my perception that is really hot like
to come up with all of this
and you need to learn more tools
not just to be able to control
these tools but also to be able
to like like work through all this
information that exist in our of
very very complex world right now and
as i think i really think that
this is also very important part of
the problem of our modern democracies in
a way that there's so much information
available and it is so hard to
come up with like filtering this information
and as
and like finding a good information in
it i i think i recently heard
in the podcast i forgot with who
it was but it was like a
he stated that like a like getting
information is not a problem you know
you can get information very quickly very
much no no issue at all the
problem is getting high quality information this
is what his heart like
like the like distinguishing like the fuel
information pieces that are really relevant between
this ocean of information pieces which are
not really relevant and i think this
is something which is so hard in
our times and also so hard for
democracy because it's so easy to like
like bring puke people in directions were
like your whole perception
of the whole world's starts to be
different from what it really is actually
ended is so hard to like extracted
the the relevant information in the sense
of what really is actually am yeah
and and as the sources something where
i think like the traditional democratic systems
are not functioning actually any more because
they are not desire
and to to like 'em tackle this
problem am and yeah this is where
we definitively didn't need new protest so
it's just just like your or perspective
just brought me back actually to this
a democracy thing
yeah democracy democracy democracy it is so
it is super important actually because sometimes
we think that the democracy i mean
i mean democracy just the award of
course but the yes and thanks we
we think finca i mean we are
not used to see violence in our
what i mean we see violence every
day
because but a different kind of violence
compared to the one that may be
people in the past i've seen
like a i've never seen a civil
war on the street i have never
had bombs on my he had the
on my house and i'm very lucky
and the
but yeah i i think that sometimes
we forget that all these democracy and
the
at the end we are talking about
the
do
i mean it it is so easy
when there is a conflict the you
we first these agree about something and
then suddenly with are killing each other
hit his
yeah i mean it yeah it is
that it is like this is it
i mean yeah that some
i i mean i mean at as
as i sat in the beginning it's
it's already very hard on a personal
level but it's even harder if you
have like groups of people in that
group group dynamic dynamics coming into i
think i think also like there was
another
another i think it's this this this
british economist who was like urban
a trader before at the sir
at the spank and and citibank i
think his or i forgot his name
but he was some
and he was also also mentioning and
that like we should we should see
it more like this that like the
unstable situation i think it was from
him that like unstable and in equal
situation in societies as much more common
than a stable situation and an equal
situation so like like when we grew
up in like the nineties
let's say it nineties early twentieth or
twenty two thousands and it was very
calm at the perspective force was always
like there is like democracy is on
the rise at this is the way
to go this is where eventually every
country will come up every country will
live in wealth and every single people
will be wealthy and yet so this
is like the story that society
he was telling us in a way
but the actual story is like if
you go back in time it was
like most of the time like inequality
a killing and like you some people's
which much with much much much more
power and money than others
and 'em it was pra like we
have to be careful that that it's
not just like that the not just
like after world war two ahead of
a small phase of prefs fifty years
where everything was wealthy and equal in
the sense at least sufficiently and that
the things turned round back not to
like
like and i mean not only to
an undesirable spirit from state but two
or more stable equal state like in
a sense that perhaps inequality is a
more stable state than equality is and
'em we have to be careful because
keeping like equality
costs a lot of effort all the
time like you know you keep the
fire running in away if you're if
you're if you're not doing something it
just goes off and that's it
and and i think this is also
a perspective that is for me at
least quite new because like i grew
up in a world were
until perhaps some few years ago and
everything was still in this perspective of
but like everything becomes just better every
year there's no way back in away
but there's no guarantee that is it
will be this way absolutely not
yeah it's it's a in a way
sir
it's a sort of kind of religious
that to like to think that the
it's gonna be different like in the
future and the i i mean all
kind of ideologies in a way but
also like a
i have faith that technology will help
other to build a better word but
still his faith am not sure about
it
do
i mean i'm quite sure
but still have to consider that is
the i'm i'm actually i'm actually very
sure but only if it's like and
if it's like a done in a
good way in what one remarked perhaps
i just wanted gary stevenson was the
name of the guy who was who's
dealing a lot with inequality at the
moment am anyway am so am
the point was sorry that i i
thought you were redacted yeah yeah bring
me back to the topic i was
the my my my my part of
for reprinting in gary was like confusing
meet a preparing the coming
well i also forgot to be
yeah well we have to say that
we are not so use the to
do what i know
and i remember i remember it was
like that technology will definitively help and
and lawyer and i think it will
because like from a very like abstract
perspective ice like this is a little
bit like a perspective that a again
from like my studies in away is
like 'em a is very high dimensional
very very very very high dimensional a
sense i mean not not and in
the dimensions and spatial dimensions but in
can generate the lot of dimensions like
a lot like this information's art nested
a lot of dimensions but we can
imagine like i like outbrain can only
imagine like up to three spatial dimensions
so our vision our like
what we can what we can imagine
it's like and stops of the three
dimensions and this makes it makes a
big mixed a problem in a sense
because very complicated or even complex things
we can only like we cannot really
grasped them because we can only see
them in a lion and like small
drawing on two dimensions or maximum of
three damage
it's so what we actually do when
we do science or when we think
or when we observe is like bring
this high dimensional information space intellect with
maximum of three dimensions and this of
course is always wrong very very wrong
so we need to be very careful
to like get the correct perspective on
these tooth
three dimensions to make as like as
least arrow is possible innocence and i
think what like what the or the
the opportunity of technology is to help
us doing this dimension in the dimensional
reduction and a very good way so
this is this is stephen as a
one hundred percent sure actually
the that this is the opportunity but
the dangerous that we like and am
i'm not sure i mean this is
properly your point in the sense the
dangerous that we use it in the
wrong way because what i said only
holds if we use it in the
right way if you use it as
an assistant or like perhaps i'm i'm
spoiling a little bit but in the
first ep
results i think there's a common sense
between the guests that and like technology
should in at least in the society
and and democratic processes only be an
assistant and never like take over the
the process and am completely but i
i is certainly see some danger that
discotheque or happen like that some
one says okay let's build in a
i that actually is doing the dishes
disc decisions for us it will be
better than what we do in whatever
way am or that we i dunno
whatever system we develop and like just
leave it to the system because we're
lazy you know often humans like we
are very lazy so it's very easy
to do is and then it then
i think it can be can become
a danger
for but as as as long as
we use it as an assistant that
helps us to like reduced inflammation space
to to like what we can understand
and to like make use of the
information we have and extract useful information
i think it will benefit definitively
absolutely the things about the multi dimensional
earth basis is super interesting and the
i am thinking that the
these ai that called organize or society
by itself or i think this is
the most dangerous thing because i'm sure
someone will propose to use that the
system in the future as you said
no one asked as the to roofing
democracy
i
but democracy as we see it now
he's also structure of power
and so like i see it functional
for the people who has who have
power now to have on the i
system that does everything by itself without
any
the needs to explain the choices that
the i will suggest and in a
way i found this is the quite
the similar to how some technicolor the
siege technical political decision were taken
was in the previous years i mean
i'm thinking about the economy like most
of the people do not understand anything
about the economy also
like i do not understand honestly why
we spend so much money on some
staffer and not on health and not
an education that is super important thought
i cannot understand is but there are
people that have a lot of economic
knowledge and technical
the knowledge that said know we have
to spend a or i dunno could
be for on could be for private
company for many things
and this quite hard right now to
debate about the if it's right or
not the and a thinking that the
if event to live there will be
une i that decide for everyone
then is not going to be possible
to or pause
because we are not smarter than i
an ai
i mean we are smarter but in
a different way
and so effing that that is also
the reason why i thought that the
it is so important to
to take care of these the
i mean to talk about a possible
governance system that are not a black
box busy yeah yeah absolutely and and
i think i think to to adhere
some some point is like if if
and a i would take over the
democratic decision making process it would basically
bring the power to those
who decide what kind of data is
used to train the i because like
the data that is used to train
the a i decides eventually what the
a i will do innocence and am
i think i think it's it's basically
just a shift of power not like
a change of power innocence there will
be some company organization
one whatever that has like the power
of of training this a i and
this the those are the ones who
have the power of maybe not deciding
but at least influencing in which way
the decisions will come out and even
though is so if even if this
this organization that has behind has good
intentions it still from from perspective of
the process a questionable thing if if
we if we really would like have
that way and i think in principle
this this this points out a very
and
deep problem actually i think because i
think i think i think the the
problem is to 'em to develop a
democracy and i think this is the
stage where where we are right now
to develop any doing with democracy which
bring oust out kind of collectively intelligent
results without sacrificing the
opportunity from everyone to take part because
you can easily build technocracy you know
where you have some experts however you
decide on these experts but you have
some experts deciding on what is best
to do and i am i bet
that it probably it if it's like
group of scientists would the to get
stuck together for every
like topic and what is site on
that like independent from company decisions independent
from other irrational processes spices whatever would
focus on finding a good solution would
not be the best ever but it
would be much better than what we
have now but it would ask the
question of that that to miss see
like like who was the one
deciding who the experts iron away and
but in principle this is what we
need so we need some way of
system that allows us to have like
more intelligent collective decisions without sacrificing did
the demote democratic put in it at
the end i think this is the
challenge with to face of this is
where we may use to
technology for may maybe i mean when
when i said to technology i i
always also include science in a way
that in know when we talk about
technology we always only think unlike computers
or industry or stuff like this like
more or less physical things but when
when i said as i also mean
like insights of out like
as humans in a way you know
if if neuroscience makes progress if the
understanding of our brain makes progress this
also helps a lot or or or
like like like competent if science and
direction of complex social systems may crosses
progress as helps a lot of designing
your systems because we better know how
we interact like like for example the
game theory you know this brings a
lot of
lot of insights about how humans interact
under certain conditions and at us have
to design systems where you can bring
out the best for everyone in the
way
yeah i think how about the you
mentioned late now complex social system and
that could be also sort of from
do
ah maybe description of the podcast
because because actually do
the idea behind a passcode is the
to interview people that have knowledge about
certain topics i mean there could be
professor of that it could be a
researcher duke be politician a journalist the
independent scholar i dunno the thudded something
specific and that can
tell us the the the product of
the research or we could discuss with
them or about possible the possibilities
and the i mean this also create
a sort of network between the people
and the i mean it was before
the podcast
when we were just chatting that the
i was saying that i had the
impression that the at then the
i mean there are people inside this
field but not so many so they
all know each other after a certain
time after that you were for five
year on the same project they all
know you and they all know your
project
and the and and yeah maybe it's
a complex such a system that will
try to roofing democracy and as you
said maybe this is not the end
of democracy maybe this is just the
beginning
of a new kind of democracy but
more it's on delaware
where everyone can ever more possibilities
i
not the where everyone is not so
tied by their social or regions also
so something more equal for everyone
the absolute looking at the same time
like at the same time bringing out
like
kind of better results like
nick better it and i mean it's
it's hard to define better but i
would say better in the sense that
if you will include a lot of
people in the process and it should
be like and it it it the
research would come out in a in
like like a reasonable time in a
sense you know your i mean you
can have like with one hundred people
am a consensus space discussion with a
very good result in the end but
it will take so much time and
net your perhaps willing to sacrifice a
little bit of the result perhaps the
results in better with another system am
to two again like a one hundreds
like one hundred times faster process away
them but
but
and yet but but but it it
has if to find a sweet point
in that sense you know we we
we don't want to sacrifice too much
of of the result am of the
quality of the result or and we
don't want to sacrifice too much of
the efficiency of the speed of the
process and but like that then my
perception
the current democratic systems are like the
kind of both has not fulfilled you
know it's it's yeah it's it's not
that fast not that good results not
that efficient i mean i mean it's
not that i mean we can help
we can be happy that we have
it but
i think there's a lot of like
room for improvement i think at least
i feel so yeah absolutely seems like
are sort of mvp a little bit
buggy has
yeah yeah that you say okay no
sbragia tecate works the but yeah please
work more on it the we can
see you're heading at the right direction
yeah
please come back a little bit later
when it's a little bit more matured
yeah exactly so i think this is
the
i
yeah like investigating about the possibilities like
not just with people that are super
pros the or
about the new digital governance system it's
also nice to hear some critical voice
and time also i mean because the
result there is a lot of from
i
as you said the if we used
technology acknowledging a good way we can
change the word or the system in
a good way but he saw easy
to do something wrong though i really
think that deserves to be like something
bigger
like really a collective process a complex
social
collective system process i dunno
are also thinking about the that in
the future
but this will open another chapter and
i mean may be constitution will be
written and in a different way and
fink about smart contracts so not just
we phrases and articles but like in
a very precise and mathematical away or
and also these are lol
variety that contract that constitution in our
collective way and then thinking about that
the
more minds more people are participating that
in this process
yeah
and then the outcome will be proportional
to the effort put the
yeah yeah absolutely so overt is this
really opens up a new new paradigm
and pratt process should we should not
extend to much on this because we
are already like much much later like
that just as much longer than we
have expected anyhow i i i have
to put something in here so am
i think i think this does related
little bit to this
phrase or called it's law and which
is especially relevant and like the structure
in web three community where like if
you read a smart contract at somehow
defines help you for people will behave
am still very impressed like for example
if you look at the ethereum sticking
mechanism or also from from leg
from other projects the sticky mechanisms this
is like really of and in my
perception is just like already have very
well developed a collective intelligence mechanism in
a way because like at counterbalances i
i dunno if it's attentions and that
way but it's it's like a is
a social algorithm that is perhaps a
better word like you know it it
counterbalance the so many interests and mean
bitcoin was probably the first one but
now it going to completely different level
it it counterbalances all interests in a
way that like the whole group benefits
from it and i find a super
interesting and i think there's a lot
of more potential in the future and
yeah and and i i
it also has the potential to like
bring code into law in some some
way and but this of course and
is then are like brings up the
question like whose deciding about the court
of course the about as you mentioned
this is then the question like we
would then be required to collaboratively write
code and
this sustained the core of the decisions
in a sense so we have to
find ways to call together in way
m two weeks indirectly defined our laws
and that that we like
yeah that we use
yeah but then quite the optimistic i
mean many times i thought about that
the way people in computer science are
collaborating and are doing it in a
very quick way i'm i think yours
about people that are just developing a
product i dunno like could be microsoft
could be google
i mean they are very efficient in
collaborating
and many times i thought okay what
if we applied these to politics like
what if people that study that something
else could be philosophy and topology psychology
if they use the same way the
sim technology and the so it is
a collaborative process and one thinks that
the and
i am i mean i think it
will happen in a natural way
but like to include the as much
as the
different point of view
the like different point of view would
help
the collective process to grow and effigy
also the disease are in a way
a male ward
the one about technology
maybe now the the there is of
course some interest the
i also from a i mean there
are a lot of women that the
the
but interesting projects that the
yeah i mean the that did the
lot to the like it when i
was looking for guests the to interview
i saw that this is something the
were more males are active and the
yeah it it just saw a thought
that ahead and
because the and yeah also about some
readings that there was the doing and
also if we look at the past
like most of the worth were made
by males must have the power will
or was hauled by man yeah means
and the and so like if we
are
thinking or building a new word for
everyone
i mean that there has to be
different skills but also
different point of views and the the
different point of views are also given
by the experience that we have a
do
leaving in the body we have
citing this is also important to
the yeah and i think that that
lies also like the question of like
power again in it because like for
example if like he would write like
like code that is law in a
sense for for example the blockchain systems
that really like asked the question fool
is capable or who has the power
of
like taking part in this i mean
this is something that for example or
primavera de filippi of interesting yeah fitted
for you're laying radha wanted to start
reading soon hopefully have some time soon
am or also like april snia for
example the who are like warning am
it was a little bit more intense
than prima very different dp but in
principle of warning lake and saying
cape like if if we've rights let
like law in coat in a sense
we need to be careful of who
is like doing it actually and and
like whose governing this in away and
if it's only like a few hits
a male programmers that have the power
to take part because the those are
the only ones understanding like co two
coats my contract for exempt
will and then yeah then you have
again like a small group of people
who can decide on how like cold
x this is coming into existence and
and property much more complex power structure
to practice is structures especially in the
blockchain word in or like a lot
some people have a lot more tokens
or coins than others and have more
power and deciding what comes
in and what does not coming in
and so on 'em yeah so this
is also a very complicated topic but
eventually i think it's like this before
we the lake should start implementing democracy
and blockchain we should make sure that
like the participation process is like at
atlas
sufficiently equal in a way
yeah absolutely
and a i see the potential like
to to not stop these episodes like
we called talk for another three hours
yeah
lovely yeah but we can't we can
take this as a chance to through
a to aunt and let's let's say
this way i mean this is anyhow
an idea we had like we just
we just reschedule it so for we
stop here and we just continue i
dunno in some time again
and because there was anyhow this idea
of lake or having some reflections on
some episodes and i really i really
think there are in the in the
upcoming episodes there are some very interesting
and things that we could discuss and
that could influence or discussion yeah let's
let's stop your perhaps i i quickly
just wanted to drop like a like
if
people are already listening to this i
would ask them to subscribe and if
they are listening on youtube i would
ask him to like to subscribe answering
the notification bell of course
mirko a cricket wanted to an urge
to motivate this and he had with
us i think we can close right
yeah thank you because i am not
really good at the asking to tomb
bobsleigh and so on so thank have
lucky that your and yeah absolutely lake
we also if someone is listening
leica we had the some ideas about
the also some let's call them alive
of discussion that may be were maybe
we can command the the episodes of
the podcast or maybe we can commence
some other topic or like invite guests
their listen we can not
brainstorm altogether about gimme vacation or some
other kind of topics and the
and yet i i will said that
the
this could benefit everyone i mean the
people lead that listen to the podcast
the podcast itself as the people that
are working civic that the people that
are struggling to raise money or then
offered their project
and so on like let's collaborate
yeah absolutely absolutely fair perhaps one one
thing it just comes to my mind
them to like the listeners to just
took to understand the roads because they
may asked during this episode so like
and a central will be the one
like asking the questions and during the
interviews and i would occasionally be here
for discussions and things like we did
now
and now just just say if this
clarified that people are not confused when
like for the next few episodes they
are not see my face again
yeah we have a sort of front
and back and the system of but
it can change in the and adapter
underway right
a pocket
i cannot thank you and the thank
you to
bye bye
bye