Geert Lovink about Democracy and the Internet. Do internet technologies help or harm?

so welcome on another episode of democracy

narrators podcast and our guests of today

is loving beard so thank you for

your time

thank you and them

i have and a questions regarding internet

do you have a wide experience with

internet and networks and the internet is

quite a new experience and human being

is three

ah how will you described a actually

internet and what internet should be your

opinions and eventually how we can reach

that situation in which internet is again

a place of hope for all people

interested in creating a better word

yeah

the 'em the internet term has a

in a military background it is a

definitely a product of the cold war

and in in that sense

you know it is born out of

the rebels of from a world war

two and it is him in oh

m the creation of the cybernetic curb

principles

then and in our early that a

computer computer science the didn't internet itself

is do

and early network that was invented to

him in the fifties and sixties and

term started working itself in nineteen sixty

nine

and it is sue of based on

the early principles of from of time

sharing between computers that were remotely indifferent

to locations so it is really am

a computer network

work and and early you people sometimes

forget that because he had these days

of course the internet is mostly access

to in on smartphones and but to

hear it is basically him

and a network between between computers or

and and then a year later on

in the seventies and eighties him of

by accessing 'em the this computer networks

through terminals using a computer and a

language initially the unique sir

a computer language and people started to

to or m c that they could

you know not just only communicate

to another computer but the that they

were earth he actually through a chat

and email etc that they were actually

a communicating with other people that were

arm in indifferent to locations so they

were not just to accessing a computer

her to tell them what to do

all of a sudden and let's say

you know computation but they were actually

in a and talking to other people

elsewhere

and 'em this was initially of cozy

inside the united states than in the

in the not ina in the eighties

are also between and united states and

its allies and in india is year

in a in australia and of course

in europe and the

in the nineties of course sir this

network then starts to become more a

privatized it was no longer a network

that was only accessible to the military

and then later on

academia but the in the early nineties

soon ordinary people like me were

and getting access to it

in the beginning in and ninety so

the internet was a competing with other

computer networks

and is there was a bulletin board

systems but then there was also america

online there was a compuserve and a

lot of others but to gradually

indian nineteen nineties

the the internet or started to become

the dominant a computer network and and

this is also because yeah it was

quite quite cheap and a kind of

them are you know

public and so it was a public

her computer network because it came from

academia after all and then of course

sir because of the invention of tim

berners lee or the the worldwide web

was a created and nineteen

ninety one which meant that to you

know it started to have a very

easy to access the interface and term

people who did not have that a

computer programming skills were able to start

'em too

to use it and and the first

websites came and you know while the

rest days history as the as they

say it grew very fast because of

venture capital that was added to it

leading

to the first to dot com

the boom and then of course the

in two thousand one also the first

to dot com crash and recession and

we have seen 'em you know hyper

growth us ever since that period around

two two thousand there were about to

a billion people live and now

now we are over four

four billion people are using it worldwide

when did it happen and that internet

get your attention i mean where are

you excited when you discovered about internet

about the wide web is there any

episode any particular moment that you remember

about the

the yeah of course the i mean

there is the the epic a galactic

ak party and endure in the hippy

temple

in a in amsterdam called paradiso diesel

and are we organize to a vicar

and computer hacker conference there and the

this was in august nineteen eighty nine

quite an exciting time because at the

time also the the berlin wall and

a hole in or changes in the

eastern europe were about to are about

to happen and term of course the

things are you know related because the

and this is there

the big change assam in ninety two

were not to not only are you

know of a dupe geopolitics but also

coincided with them the technology and globalization

and him

so these things are opened up the

the possibility for many many people worldwide

are to start to to to come

you communicate

with each other and exchanger materials in

waste that to you know where we're

almost impossible and very very slow and

expensive before before that

i yeah that there were one of

course of a possibilities to let's say

democratize the the media landscape and this

was the year the initial promise i

came from the new social movement from

squatting from the

anti nuclear movement and the

so we had a lot of experience

with the you know building our own

or an alternative media using a free

radio pirate television and of course a

lot of from publishing of books magazines

and to on and so on

on right and or in all these

and media we already are made use

of the of the computer of course

in of in because whom he that

in the nineteen eighties it was already

possible you not to create music to

to do desktop publishing to

yet to create even is yeah may

maybe a little bit more in the

nineties we started to create of quicker

you know videos of digital videos so

until all the some a latte alternative

underground experiences or were directly

it's the to you know the the

the democratization or of of all the

sir tools that made it to him

much much easier not only to produce

but especially also to distribute and exchange

and materials

and then later of course combined are

in a we were not only exchanging

materials but weavers in communicating with each

other

the the access to culture is very

important and never liked it to ca

about it but a little bit later

and law would like to ask you

ah about your background and eventually also

starting from i dunno from when you

were a tie

child if you have something to say

about the memories that come

i can inspire

or all sabato of course your academic

brand the background and professional

one

yeah but what's defining or maybe it's

not so much

you know my my early

experience with the computer that of course

go back to 'em in the nineteen

sixties

when all this was also very much

related to and science fiction may be

and to it then i grew up

of course with that kind of an

imaginary

i started using punch cards into computers

or yeah probably and for the first

time in the early nineteen seventies in

school a a a and came across

these machines that will you know for

us were primarily used may be

to make calculations and i kind of

like that i liked the idea that

the you know were ultimately still talking

about let's say a very clever interfaces

to machines that ultimately a just make

an enormous amount of calculations

a for us right that's a computer

and him and and that's a smartphone

and these are called calculating devices and

them yeah b

two

i have i am also of course

the that's inevitable i am also a

child of nineteen eighty four there is

no doubt about that which is not

of coarser you know the the title

of the famous

george orwell book but term yeah i

i kind of grew up with a

very high awareness of of the surveillance

state and and the die the idea

of the computer that to who was

going to use

by the state and by big corporations

to see to survey last this was

a and an idea that probably grew

came up already and that was a

very much aware of us from in

the nineteen seventies when are in order

to

disturbed the the western police or apparatus

and estate were using computers to control

the population and so i come from

let's idea italian autonomous to and german

autonomous to a school

in which at this kind of use

of the computer or was early in

it was theorized very early on so

the computer was never really an innocent

device right so from the very beginning

we knew about it sir military origins

and we knew

new about you know it sir it's

evil intentions

and the yeah i wanna i wanna

take out there one specific book which

is let's a german but very influenced

by of course the italian autonomous thinking

from the nineteen seventy seven movement but

the at this book

aqua is written by to to germans

and it describes the

the way the nazi to were using

already you know the the i b

m computers and the very early ones

which were may be the not so

much computers but there were calculating and

sorting the devices and

and this story really deeply influenced me

when i when i read to in

in west berlin when i was living

darren in the squats and about the

way at the nazis were using the

i b m a computers in there

you know relentless effort to kill all

european jews and in do in the

holocaust so the computer ever played an

important role

in sorting sorting the population sorting out

you know selecting people and so the

computer or as is selecting a device

yak and it's kind of always stayed

with me so when we started to

you

no enter this field of the democratization

of the computer we were always doing

this and you know with mixed feelings

is to say we knew or of

it's very very destructive nature and capabilities

and and knowing also that to you

know why

we had to intervene there but also

you know not doing that with the

are too much or naivety or utopian

ideas we weren't earn a very very

well aware from the mid eighties onwards

that the fight over the architect

your of the computer and the computer

networks was going to be a very

very tough one and was going to

define a the decades to come this

was clear very early on

and the about your a professional experience

some academic background will delight rouge or

something and how did you

ah how did it happen

i studied the political science and sociology

from nineteen seventy seven till eighty four

but this was a of course also

very much defined by my involvement and

participation in a range of a new

social movements but particularly the squatter movement

in amsterdam but also in in berlin

where where i left him in my

life i've always gone back and forth

between amsterdam and to west berlin which

was later of course called berlin after

the fall of from of the wall

and yeah ed initially this was a

very much about and

let's a political philosophy and theory and

and sociology of coarser you know at

the time of course them or the

study of marxism the history of the

or of the labor movement or socialism

or but in my case anarchism you

know was a was really defining

my own intellectual trajectory but to we

tried for early on to really develop

that

the that a in contrast with our

own experience in the social movements knowing

that to in the the big let's

say a stories of the twentieth century

or around marxism and the the intimate

emancipatory power

of the labor of the working class

was a you know going to an

end and of course you know will

we then literally experience that of course

or in the in the collapse of

the of the soviet your union

five for ten years later so we

we kind of them are actively contributed

to the to the decline of let's

say this stalinism and to and a

rigid dogmatic for himself from of marxism

and because of my involvement

in the in the whole question of

a of media communication and

added to if the developer the a

m yeah an interest in what was

happening in in west germany at the

time which was called the rise of

of meteor theory and the and yeah

i kind of develop mice

self also as a as dumb as

an independent media theorist and that sounds

a little bit strange because i wasn't

academic i never really saw myself as

an academic i saw myself more as

a you know if you like a

grandson organica intellectual relay a bot

one of the social movements and and

air as a media theorist and and

that it's basically what than what i'm

still you know a practicing

and to trying to develop further this

field in my personal and a biography

is very much related to a to

germans who knew each other quite wealth

in from the city of the friedberg

in the south

one is called a claus david light

and he is the author of male

fantasies a book that really really defined

me

you know may be together with the

the dollars qatari but also with an

alias cabinet canetti a crowd and power

as a lot of things are in

this epic work or kind of comes

together the other one that also a

was there at the time is friedrich

hitler

enter he is a media theorist

and he he has written a number

of books but to that really defied

my intellectual let's a biography but to

yeah you could call him also the

de fuca of of the of the

media right

and so he really kind of completely

revolutionized to the initial

let's a ground work that to or

harold in is

a george grant but but then also

a marshall mcluhan late right which is

kind of the the earlier canadian a

media theories from from the postwar period

and the out i started to participate

and in in this

sim in the scene in this room

and may be movement a german german

media theory which was quite large

at the time in them later the

late eighties and early nineties and them

what then happened is that i kind

of took this experience of of the

hackers and the computer networks and immediate

theory and i brought that

to the context of the emerging internet

in the early mid nineties

as i said do you have a

lot of experience with internet and the

as you are reminded us the internet

was created for military purposes

and unfortunately it seems that the as

the humans patient suspicious when we develop

new technology then we use them we

use it to to kill each other

and this is sucking said the 'em

but yeah eventually the internet can be

was the also as you said to

democratize access to counter and saw the

role of culture i mean because internet

challenge it may be the way knowledge

was produced and distributed

and the thinking about also copyright and

the

the something also very awkward because of

ai

so if i read something and then

i write the book who is the

owner of that content

these are philosophical questions but may be

as a society we have to rethink

how knowledge is distributed

and the if it's convenient

i honestly think not the for society

to have this kind of economic barrier

the success culture and am referring also

to their foundation for not months the

advancement of illegal knowledge that the

yeah let me let me first start

with that because that's such a him

a great episode and very important part

of my life

especially in the in the eighties and

nineties and i joined to the foundation

for the advancement of illegal knowledge a

in nineteen eighty three as a small

group and of dutch am

the a floating a m intellectuals we

were all you know unemployed we were

not academics we we operated outside on

the fringes of the of the social

movements and our aim was to develop

an independent

a media theory

but really do

focused on the on the question and

of and

you know how this this speculative a

field that was opening up a could

be

could be not colonized but could be

could be defined could be designed and

with a subversive and with independent concepts

and so we we were really like

a yeah maybe a classic her you

know the

the lucien concept machine if you like

a am outside of academia

and so it it also meant that

what we wrote that we also you

know practice to we had our own

radio stations and to and publishing houses

and we were also giving classes and

reading groups and so on so on

and yes we were also a writing

around book

six by the way and this was

happening the whole time in the eighties

and nineties in dutch right we did

not right

in in english

so this is definitely you know before

let's say the internet in that sense

i myself and started to write in

english only when i was thirty five

years old

and to when a it just became

impossible to translate everything so initially i

wrote only in in dutch and to

and in german

and then because or of yeah the

troubles of the translation this was just

not a viable any more so am

i switch to english or a language

that i knew since i was in

a very small kit so it was

not a question of

that i that we were not good

enough in english or something like that

but yet we enjoyed in our writing

in our own language which i think

you know in the eighties and nineties

was definitely europe much more widespread these

days and

unfortunately you know alex really you know

why are we not to talking in

the italian at this is really a

mystery to me why are we having

this conversation you know in english but

it's stealth something about our times and

and also

about the way in which are you

not the production of theory and collective

intelligence has shaped a and also you

know it has shaped europe in the

past two decades and yeah the the

the the group

produced a number of interesting books we

wrote the history of the amsterdam squatter

movement it's called to squatting to the

media in in english

but but the maybe in this context

the most relevant is the book that

came out in ninety two in dutch

and then in german and in a

and many other languages and eventually also

in english in ninety eight and is

called the media archive and mia aka

he said is really a book with

an enormous amount of speculative for figures

and concepts most famous is probably you

know the data then d which is

kind of for a person related to

the early days of of surfing the

web

ip witcher you know it was it

was strange phenomena for us that the

time and but also the idea of

sovereign media was very important suffered media

were basically media that were only broadcasting

to themselves and had it emancipate

selves from any idea of an audience

that you you know that i'm now

talking to you i'm not talking to

other people right we are just having

fun ourselves with the medium that we

are using

and in this case our media me

says the internet and so ah yes

so for us a sovereign media was

a very very important to emancipatory moment

because

broadcasting and to distribution can also be

be very cumbersome and to boring the

you know if you look at to

how a tick-tock and instagram you know

are producing an enormous amount of influencers

and how boring they are you can

see

data you know the the the broadcasting

or webcasting a

is is quite to a burden on

humankind we should really get rid of

that the that idea

because it's really

yeah not turn of the leading us

anywhere it's it's just a very very

boring content that comes out of this

to do to get rid of the

idea of of reaching other people you

know this kind of an evangelical a

impulse inside

us yeah is something you know that

we thought we should to make fun

of

yeah absolutely and the it's a good

question the one that you made about

to hawaii we are not speaking in

italian and i know that he also

speak italian and there

that was performed the another but but

then he had a lot of people

will not the i and

and

and the also agree about the quality

of content on the such an media

and the about that i think about

the let's say independence have thought like

i mean yeah we are having a

discussion then the discussion is going to

be published and an algorithm that we

do not control in any way

i

is going to

yeah i mean to distribute the content

based on the traffic but yeah

that even alex's him isn't is an

idealistic notion because maybe in secret we

hope that to you know and the

algorithm will visit us but maybe maybe

that's not even going to be the

case so in that sense of the

whole a icing is also based on

know a very idealistic notion that to

all content to you know will be

a utilized in one form or another

i fear that to him you know

that to it's going to be much

more much more bleak and emily that

to only very very selected kind of

as a group of from of content

makers and to people who are in

in control over over the databases you

know will air eventually defined you know

what a knowledge of for

for humankind is and it's very clear

for me that to very soon we

will have you know a kind of

shadow

cyberspace

outside of the ai machines where people

in a will still kind of trade

other types of of content because

ai will really be so boring and

will shut itself down necessarily for for

a range of reasons

so it will not to it will

not include the thoughts of of you

and me i can tell you

yeah and this is also a fact

connected with why we are speaking english

i mean at the moment the most

famous such a network came from other

countries may lie yet us

and the the called they're called also

be are some sort of political influence

because of that

of obviously

yes and and

yeah and that's why we're speaking yeah

yeah we have to understand that this

is already and the incredible a limitation

in a way you know when when

when we look at it to from

the incredible diversity and depth

of of cultural knowledge a worldwide

you know but when we don't even

have to talk about indigenous knowledge but

we can also just talk about you

know our own he doesn't really matter

there's so many layers that will not

to in open to that will not

be covered that will be excluded for

and forgotten

ah well if you know if we

do not to if we do not

act and if we do not to

actively organize the you know counter

database is count of knowledge counter libraries

of of the you know a written

and performed to human experiences into their

very rich in fact in order the

the the archives of the twentieth century

or are incredible or incr

audible and i i really fear that

most of that will just to be

forgotten because not just because it's not

a digitized right or the idea that

to we are going to boo as

save our souls

only through digitization is only partially

you not true

i think

there are any way an enormous around

the richness of cultural memory and the

to that cannot and will not be

digitized you know and that is any

way you know embodied knowledge already you

know a and the and

that's the the knowledge that we already

have from

you know stored inside us not just

in our brains bettina entire bodies you

and me and millions of others right

so

so we have to really really be

careful and in and in the coming

years not to reduce all this in

the hall you know a i a

spectacle that turned to his is ahead

of us

but i'm confident that too many of

us

in a will see that to this

is only will only represent a very

poor one percent of of all the

thinks the to that we've gathered in

have access to

yeah i'm prepared about terrorists that the

system that from an unnamed turned off

quantities will will go toward an internet

of quality

i shared his top of that the

we do not just prince content

the content yeah but the you asked

me before you know have about the

a to the history of content and

yeah for me that is a really

fascinating topic that to we don't really

a here

much about because

in computer science but also in silicon

valley

people have very ambivalent ideas about content

content and you know according to a

marshall mcluhan already at didn't really matter

right and the the really hardcore materialist

the media theory already tells us that

that content is really it doesn't it

doesn't matter i to it's not term

what it's about but it's about the

way or the computer networks are organized

to how they are and how it's

architecture looks like what it excludes and

so on so on but the content

itself

is is irrelevant

and yet in the nineteen eighties i

think or when i was really becoming

fully aware of this that was a

that was quite a shock because in

the sixties and seventies a we was

still thinking you know in in terms

of ideology and in terms of the

in maybe i had a gemini when

when you have good ideas and you

bring them and you share them you

know when among the people yeah this

these were all still lets her movements

that that that was driven by idea

that him if you if you have

good to content and if you can

tell the

truth you can convince people and you

can make a difference right and the

revolution will ultimately be driven by this

kind of a rotten rational emotive that

eventually the truth will set us free

right

and yet so this kind of a

realization that to this might not to

really be the case or not the

case any more may be in the

past you know it would have been

the case who knows

but certainly in today's world content is

just got this garbage basically and for

me that was very difficult because i've

always struggled with this idea

on the one hand i have to

fully be aware of it and have

to understand it and them to reconcile

that with it on the other hand

i am a content make myself you

know amber i'm a writer and

we're producing books and and videos and

so many are you know weird and

good

and the and subversive content right and

so this is this is a very

deep a paradox in our a in

our approach because our material is to

theories tell us have a very very

different idea

while our passion and our creative a

you know energy and and theory and

the political debates and everything right all

that is essentially a garbage content and

so yeah

yeah this is this is very difficult

and up up to today

this is this is a true even

more so in a in a i

you know the a i am is

a very let's say expensive and to

complex

the tea set of rules and to

and theories and to her languages and

to on

but are you know it it it

can just use the whole history of

humankind in a couple of weeks to

train itself right and there you can

already see that the the content that

it's a is using to train itself

is basically garbage can be anything

right

and so yeah that's a that's a

pretty shocking again and again

a to think that to artists will

not make a living writers

any kind of her creative worker

you know we'll have to be either

supported by the state

or just basically have an every day

job do something else and then create

of these beautiful things are you know

right to a symphony a novel film

etc

in the evening hours because the could

the content you will not be able

to make a living and the yet

this slow kind of realization of the

of the letter a pass to twenty

thirty years or has been really really

difficult one

for for all of us because if

you are really like us on top

of the game in the internet

this is the ultimate you know realization

that turn those who create a good

the contour the content are basically the

garbage workers

yeah absolutely

i

i like the paradox between the

producing content to and at the same

time recognizing the limit of that content

and the i'm thinking about the

do you said maybe the award contract

before so content contractor and the i've

looked at the institute of network cultures

needs him saw a wonderful project and

i'm also thinking about the i mean

network could be also network of people

network of devices

yeah network of devices and people and

the how we can

i am rehashing by the centralization and

decentralization was related to information but was

smaller and the information is power and

vice versa

yep and

i mean now there are new ways

may be for humanity to a related

to governance

and the

i dunno what is like democracy for

you this new

technologies can help to transform the system

that we are calling democracy i mean

liberata the western democracies and the yeah

what are your thoughts about the this

topic here from a media theory and

from an internet to pursue

effective having worked in his fields for

the last than thirty years i have

to say that the internet and democracy

day

a very little in common they then

they don't really touch or if they

touch it's pretty disastrous

so do we can talk about the

democratization the opening up of the medium

itself that is in itself you know

an interesting

one way and of course the i

have been working on that for for

all this all this time to to

educate people to show to her work

you know an open access of an

open source free software and a creating

the light libraries are making

no alternative content to available etc these

this is a did you use far

of a computer networks in in education

you name it right so this is

the democratization of the medium itself

now the relation between let a western

parliamentary democracy in the internet is a

very

it's a difficult one

from from from in fact from quite

early on the so there is no

real link let's start with one with

one very obvious obstacle and from very

early on the computer networks have may

be contributed to

the creation of discourse of you know

of of talking may be of also

of discussion or of debate you know

or maybe maybe get there are a

lot of from a hidden power place

there and inequality

ts and to you know thinks that

are but you could say okay that

the internet is it kind of a

discursive machine okay however you know is

that feeding into let's say the decision

making process that is happening in parliament

or in gov

government

hmm maybe not right very very problematic

due to to even point at you

know where where this this is really

a contributing in a constructive way right

nowadays of course we know that with

the internet

you can you know bring down governments

and and subvert all sorts of systems

right in the old right

is very very good at it and

so for the last ten years we

we have a really studied at length

you know how

internet culture and social media in particular

can be used to undermine let's say

the state of yeah the the rule

of law or a parliamentary rules or

you know corrupt

hm government apparatuses or or or political

parties you name it right

mark but most of all what we

see there is that the the internet

has had no influence what however on

something like voting is very very interesting

internet or is not a tool and

has so

far not been a tool for decision

making processes right you could say okay

maybe the the internet is used in

election machines but if you have a

lot closer look under you know if

you look at the the long history

of how hackers look at the design

it's way the internet can be used

in in the elections you you will

see that the most of the computer

hackers a will say don't use any

internet if you wanted you are organize

an election right and so this is

very strange with or

already since the nineteen nineties or when

you go to hecker conferences etc

the strong advice is don't use any

computer networks in the elections right because

they can and will be hacked or

and the whole the democratic process will

inevitably be undermined by our machines that

are so that is in its

self is interesting right so computer networks

and let a democracy democratic processes of

collective decision making they don't go together

them don't ride and so that in

itself is very interesting and this

is a take away of man he

many generations of computer hackers and i

and i fully agree that to you

know we should not or learn let

these two things are even come close

to each other

this is very interesting because i actually

i think we ever some technological solution

that could actually help people to agree

about certain topics but at the same

time is very true that the

technology can be hacked the in some

way and then add the result may

be is a compromised by and a

buck and so yeah i'm i've been

very interested in their decision making processes

and using and you know software or

in small

color groups and maybe even in smaller

a social movements but even there are

let's say the the outcome of that

was a a mixed feeling so uh

yeah the fact that you know the

the outcome can enjoy

will be manipulated is not a good

one it's certainly not it's not what

you want and this why i'm saying

the the internet can be used for

critical discourse but it's when it comes

to probably a collective decision making

it is very very dangerous and to

it's best to earth 'em off when

it comes to

voting and real decision making

i i understand the what you're saying

i hope that the ice till having

some way is to

may be ah

not use any more devoting system but

eventually to deliberate just talking as we

are doing now but about certain polyphenols

such an issue and yeah comes out

his are seeking is of course the

ideal but yeah let

some

i'm still very much in favour you

know that we do more experiments and

that so far in the last decade

and not many the such experiments have

happened and you could say okay and

i may maybe with the you know

the dallas

and the the the blockchain experiments that

was a that sir

yeah an attempt in that direction

but when you start to look at

it and we've recently you know studied

a book published the study

about that by into glue richer one

of our researchers here at the institute

of little cultures you can see that

these experiments they are very few and

the outcome is is quite to yeah

let's say a mixed yeah what what

you know does it shouldn't stop us

from are you know making further inquiries

in that field but and were definitely

onto that but it is quite telling

that despite the fact

that the overwhelming majority of humankind is

using now this the machines and devices

are very very few experiments are happening

in this direction

the english under title yeah experiment and

the maybe we find something that works

i dunno and i'm excited a dollars

and the i mean the blockchain word

and the of like to ask your

relationship between that money

a and ductile political system but also

because i know that the

the an initiative and initiative called that

money lab yeah through us yeah and

i've been intrigued with the the question

of digital money from very early on

here in amsterdam in ninety two i

already met david charm which are you

know he said the defender of deja

cashier which are please read to the

the wikipedia page about bitcoin he said

consider to you know one of the

one of the founders or intellectual founding

father

slutty and of of bitcoin years working

here in a them

i yeah the question are you know

how people can make a living

with these computer networks are is a

completely unresolved most of the hacker sue

already told me in the nineties a

you will not be able to make

a living with a with the internet

to forget about it

you know you can may be live

make a living or if you're if

you're a designer or a programmer and

you you know you work on the

actual infrastructure of it that there's some

money to to be made their that

to yeah if you if you are

let's say my

making music or of writing some something

up that a poetry or

you know a novel or a journalist

the for that matter forget about it

you can have a normal job and

then you you you can do that

in the in your in your free

hours in the evening because you will

never get money for what you're doing

and did and this is been you

know a decision of the people who

have designed to the systems

very early on

so it was always an uphill struggle

and the it still is

the

salute the

another crescent the last one i do

you have a message for all the

people that are actually working

in the civic tech field i mean

the tarp experimenting with technology from

yet that are beating software that show

belt people to deliberate or to agree

on a certain topic

oh yeah know for sure because i

i

you know

in my field we we had to

at some point confront ourselves with the

with the whole social media and to

what we call the platform blues and

this is something we have done or

not to voluntarily but only to understand

stand and you know the deeper the

drive into the implementations and to the

premises of this a right-wing libertarian a

populist movement that to you know was

a

was driven and was pushed forward by

silicon valley very early on right to

this tendency has been around already it

was there in the mid mid nineties

right so the techno the right-wing techno

a libertarians go back a long time

time and if you read to you

know that famous

essay called her the california an ideology

by above and camera from nineteen ninety

five it's already all in there so

we had to confront ourselves with with

that movement with that of force which

you know now with

the elon musk and and donald trump

is is kind of for you know

reaching a kind of her galium you

know world history level so yeah of

'em it make you also wonder you

know if it can can get any

bigger than than where we are at

the moment that to

yeah why not

maybe it can cause the also you

know a world war three and the

and the destruction of the planet as

a whole right i mean that's really

the let the next level we're we're

approaching as as sooner rather than later

i soak or the question there is

okay if if you have to if

you if the circumstances are forcing you

to to confront yourself with that because

you need to give an answer what

is then the status of let's a

small scale alternatives

is right and people who are working

on on on you know the the

software's and the protocols and the the

the prototypes the t you are mentioning

right and i would say that at

the moment we really really should come

together

here in europe you know in italy

france in in germany netherlands era spain

everywhere the eastern europe and come together

to discuss how we in an extra

couple of years want to and let's

say

a relate these to a activities in

and completely new way because if we

are not to you know opening up

this discussion we may as well

you know of follow the news what

the musk and and trump and zuckerberg

are doing every day and at what

we see also in italy is that

to the the counter movement is more

and more just confronted with keeping up

with the news because nobody

can really keep up with it but

this is all also taking away a

lot of our on energy and attention

to the alternatives the alternatives are out

there there are a lot of people

amongst us with very very good ideas

right and so we are running in

the

real danger that we have to focus

so much

of our mental energy and and collective

or anger and to woods or what

to some call in or the poly

crisis because it's a poly crisis right

and their related to its extraction it's

global a warming

it's a the disastrous her effects of

a i the the list of the

poly crisis as we all know it's

very long right so as day-in and

day-out we can just be completely overwhelmed

just the by the dealing with that

a and and thus forgetting that to

you know who are we we have

a whole range in factor of quite

interesting alternatives that to you have been

developed her in the back

round by small groups collectives initiatives right

and so when we really really need

to politicize

the the and find a new balance

between these two

i thinks that to ask of for

our attention and that's really the the

challenge ahead for the next to a

couple of years

thank you a lot berlin

the a wonderful very very interesting for

me

greetings to bologna

think job