so welcome on another episode of democracy
narrators podcast and our guests of today
is loving beard so thank you for
your time
thank you and them
i have and a questions regarding internet
do you have a wide experience with
internet and networks and the internet is
quite a new experience and human being
is three
ah how will you described a actually
internet and what internet should be your
opinions and eventually how we can reach
that situation in which internet is again
a place of hope for all people
interested in creating a better word
yeah
the 'em the internet term has a
in a military background it is a
definitely a product of the cold war
and in in that sense
you know it is born out of
the rebels of from a world war
two and it is him in oh
m the creation of the cybernetic curb
principles
then and in our early that a
computer computer science the didn't internet itself
is do
and early network that was invented to
him in the fifties and sixties and
term started working itself in nineteen sixty
nine
and it is sue of based on
the early principles of from of time
sharing between computers that were remotely indifferent
to locations so it is really am
a computer network
work and and early you people sometimes
forget that because he had these days
of course the internet is mostly access
to in on smartphones and but to
hear it is basically him
and a network between between computers or
and and then a year later on
in the seventies and eighties him of
by accessing 'em the this computer networks
through terminals using a computer and a
language initially the unique sir
a computer language and people started to
to or m c that they could
you know not just only communicate
to another computer but the that they
were earth he actually through a chat
and email etc that they were actually
a communicating with other people that were
arm in indifferent to locations so they
were not just to accessing a computer
her to tell them what to do
all of a sudden and let's say
you know computation but they were actually
in a and talking to other people
elsewhere
and 'em this was initially of cozy
inside the united states than in the
in the not ina in the eighties
are also between and united states and
its allies and in india is year
in a in australia and of course
in europe and the
in the nineties of course sir this
network then starts to become more a
privatized it was no longer a network
that was only accessible to the military
and then later on
academia but the in the early nineties
soon ordinary people like me were
and getting access to it
in the beginning in and ninety so
the internet was a competing with other
computer networks
and is there was a bulletin board
systems but then there was also america
online there was a compuserve and a
lot of others but to gradually
indian nineteen nineties
the the internet or started to become
the dominant a computer network and and
this is also because yeah it was
quite quite cheap and a kind of
them are you know
public and so it was a public
her computer network because it came from
academia after all and then of course
sir because of the invention of tim
berners lee or the the worldwide web
was a created and nineteen
ninety one which meant that to you
know it started to have a very
easy to access the interface and term
people who did not have that a
computer programming skills were able to start
'em too
to use it and and the first
websites came and you know while the
rest days history as the as they
say it grew very fast because of
venture capital that was added to it
leading
to the first to dot com
the boom and then of course the
in two thousand one also the first
to dot com crash and recession and
we have seen 'em you know hyper
growth us ever since that period around
two two thousand there were about to
a billion people live and now
now we are over four
four billion people are using it worldwide
when did it happen and that internet
get your attention i mean where are
you excited when you discovered about internet
about the wide web is there any
episode any particular moment that you remember
about the
the yeah of course the i mean
there is the the epic a galactic
ak party and endure in the hippy
temple
in a in amsterdam called paradiso diesel
and are we organize to a vicar
and computer hacker conference there and the
this was in august nineteen eighty nine
quite an exciting time because at the
time also the the berlin wall and
a hole in or changes in the
eastern europe were about to are about
to happen and term of course the
things are you know related because the
and this is there
the big change assam in ninety two
were not to not only are you
know of a dupe geopolitics but also
coincided with them the technology and globalization
and him
so these things are opened up the
the possibility for many many people worldwide
are to start to to to come
you communicate
with each other and exchanger materials in
waste that to you know where we're
almost impossible and very very slow and
expensive before before that
i yeah that there were one of
course of a possibilities to let's say
democratize the the media landscape and this
was the year the initial promise i
came from the new social movement from
squatting from the
anti nuclear movement and the
so we had a lot of experience
with the you know building our own
or an alternative media using a free
radio pirate television and of course a
lot of from publishing of books magazines
and to on and so on
on right and or in all these
and media we already are made use
of the of the computer of course
in of in because whom he that
in the nineteen eighties it was already
possible you not to create music to
to do desktop publishing to
yet to create even is yeah may
maybe a little bit more in the
nineties we started to create of quicker
you know videos of digital videos so
until all the some a latte alternative
underground experiences or were directly
it's the to you know the the
the democratization or of of all the
sir tools that made it to him
much much easier not only to produce
but especially also to distribute and exchange
and materials
and then later of course combined are
in a we were not only exchanging
materials but weavers in communicating with each
other
the the access to culture is very
important and never liked it to ca
about it but a little bit later
and law would like to ask you
ah about your background and eventually also
starting from i dunno from when you
were a tie
child if you have something to say
about the memories that come
i can inspire
or all sabato of course your academic
brand the background and professional
one
yeah but what's defining or maybe it's
not so much
you know my my early
experience with the computer that of course
go back to 'em in the nineteen
sixties
when all this was also very much
related to and science fiction may be
and to it then i grew up
of course with that kind of an
imaginary
i started using punch cards into computers
or yeah probably and for the first
time in the early nineteen seventies in
school a a a and came across
these machines that will you know for
us were primarily used may be
to make calculations and i kind of
like that i liked the idea that
the you know were ultimately still talking
about let's say a very clever interfaces
to machines that ultimately a just make
an enormous amount of calculations
a for us right that's a computer
and him and and that's a smartphone
and these are called calculating devices and
them yeah b
two
i have i am also of course
the that's inevitable i am also a
child of nineteen eighty four there is
no doubt about that which is not
of coarser you know the the title
of the famous
george orwell book but term yeah i
i kind of grew up with a
very high awareness of of the surveillance
state and and the die the idea
of the computer that to who was
going to use
by the state and by big corporations
to see to survey last this was
a and an idea that probably grew
came up already and that was a
very much aware of us from in
the nineteen seventies when are in order
to
disturbed the the western police or apparatus
and estate were using computers to control
the population and so i come from
let's idea italian autonomous to and german
autonomous to a school
in which at this kind of use
of the computer or was early in
it was theorized very early on so
the computer was never really an innocent
device right so from the very beginning
we knew about it sir military origins
and we knew
new about you know it sir it's
evil intentions
and the yeah i wanna i wanna
take out there one specific book which
is let's a german but very influenced
by of course the italian autonomous thinking
from the nineteen seventy seven movement but
the at this book
aqua is written by to to germans
and it describes the
the way the nazi to were using
already you know the the i b
m computers and the very early ones
which were may be the not so
much computers but there were calculating and
sorting the devices and
and this story really deeply influenced me
when i when i read to in
in west berlin when i was living
darren in the squats and about the
way at the nazis were using the
i b m a computers in there
you know relentless effort to kill all
european jews and in do in the
holocaust so the computer ever played an
important role
in sorting sorting the population sorting out
you know selecting people and so the
computer or as is selecting a device
yak and it's kind of always stayed
with me so when we started to
you
no enter this field of the democratization
of the computer we were always doing
this and you know with mixed feelings
is to say we knew or of
it's very very destructive nature and capabilities
and and knowing also that to you
know why
we had to intervene there but also
you know not doing that with the
are too much or naivety or utopian
ideas we weren't earn a very very
well aware from the mid eighties onwards
that the fight over the architect
your of the computer and the computer
networks was going to be a very
very tough one and was going to
define a the decades to come this
was clear very early on
and the about your a professional experience
some academic background will delight rouge or
something and how did you
ah how did it happen
i studied the political science and sociology
from nineteen seventy seven till eighty four
but this was a of course also
very much defined by my involvement and
participation in a range of a new
social movements but particularly the squatter movement
in amsterdam but also in in berlin
where where i left him in my
life i've always gone back and forth
between amsterdam and to west berlin which
was later of course called berlin after
the fall of from of the wall
and yeah ed initially this was a
very much about and
let's a political philosophy and theory and
and sociology of coarser you know at
the time of course them or the
study of marxism the history of the
or of the labor movement or socialism
or but in my case anarchism you
know was a was really defining
my own intellectual trajectory but to we
tried for early on to really develop
that
the that a in contrast with our
own experience in the social movements knowing
that to in the the big let's
say a stories of the twentieth century
or around marxism and the the intimate
emancipatory power
of the labor of the working class
was a you know going to an
end and of course you know will
we then literally experience that of course
or in the in the collapse of
the of the soviet your union
five for ten years later so we
we kind of them are actively contributed
to the to the decline of let's
say this stalinism and to and a
rigid dogmatic for himself from of marxism
and because of my involvement
in the in the whole question of
a of media communication and
added to if the developer the a
m yeah an interest in what was
happening in in west germany at the
time which was called the rise of
of meteor theory and the and yeah
i kind of develop mice
self also as a as dumb as
an independent media theorist and that sounds
a little bit strange because i wasn't
academic i never really saw myself as
an academic i saw myself more as
a you know if you like a
grandson organica intellectual relay a bot
one of the social movements and and
air as a media theorist and and
that it's basically what than what i'm
still you know a practicing
and to trying to develop further this
field in my personal and a biography
is very much related to a to
germans who knew each other quite wealth
in from the city of the friedberg
in the south
one is called a claus david light
and he is the author of male
fantasies a book that really really defined
me
you know may be together with the
the dollars qatari but also with an
alias cabinet canetti a crowd and power
as a lot of things are in
this epic work or kind of comes
together the other one that also a
was there at the time is friedrich
hitler
enter he is a media theorist
and he he has written a number
of books but to that really defied
my intellectual let's a biography but to
yeah you could call him also the
de fuca of of the of the
media right
and so he really kind of completely
revolutionized to the initial
let's a ground work that to or
harold in is
a george grant but but then also
a marshall mcluhan late right which is
kind of the the earlier canadian a
media theories from from the postwar period
and the out i started to participate
and in in this
sim in the scene in this room
and may be movement a german german
media theory which was quite large
at the time in them later the
late eighties and early nineties and them
what then happened is that i kind
of took this experience of of the
hackers and the computer networks and immediate
theory and i brought that
to the context of the emerging internet
in the early mid nineties
as i said do you have a
lot of experience with internet and the
as you are reminded us the internet
was created for military purposes
and unfortunately it seems that the as
the humans patient suspicious when we develop
new technology then we use them we
use it to to kill each other
and this is sucking said the 'em
but yeah eventually the internet can be
was the also as you said to
democratize access to counter and saw the
role of culture i mean because internet
challenge it may be the way knowledge
was produced and distributed
and the thinking about also copyright and
the
the something also very awkward because of
ai
so if i read something and then
i write the book who is the
owner of that content
these are philosophical questions but may be
as a society we have to rethink
how knowledge is distributed
and the if it's convenient
i honestly think not the for society
to have this kind of economic barrier
the success culture and am referring also
to their foundation for not months the
advancement of illegal knowledge that the
yeah let me let me first start
with that because that's such a him
a great episode and very important part
of my life
especially in the in the eighties and
nineties and i joined to the foundation
for the advancement of illegal knowledge a
in nineteen eighty three as a small
group and of dutch am
the a floating a m intellectuals we
were all you know unemployed we were
not academics we we operated outside on
the fringes of the of the social
movements and our aim was to develop
an independent
a media theory
but really do
focused on the on the question and
of and
you know how this this speculative a
field that was opening up a could
be
could be not colonized but could be
could be defined could be designed and
with a subversive and with independent concepts
and so we we were really like
a yeah maybe a classic her you
know the
the lucien concept machine if you like
a am outside of academia
and so it it also meant that
what we wrote that we also you
know practice to we had our own
radio stations and to and publishing houses
and we were also giving classes and
reading groups and so on so on
and yes we were also a writing
around book
six by the way and this was
happening the whole time in the eighties
and nineties in dutch right we did
not right
in in english
so this is definitely you know before
let's say the internet in that sense
i myself and started to write in
english only when i was thirty five
years old
and to when a it just became
impossible to translate everything so initially i
wrote only in in dutch and to
and in german
and then because or of yeah the
troubles of the translation this was just
not a viable any more so am
i switch to english or a language
that i knew since i was in
a very small kit so it was
not a question of
that i that we were not good
enough in english or something like that
but yet we enjoyed in our writing
in our own language which i think
you know in the eighties and nineties
was definitely europe much more widespread these
days and
unfortunately you know alex really you know
why are we not to talking in
the italian at this is really a
mystery to me why are we having
this conversation you know in english but
it's stealth something about our times and
and also
about the way in which are you
not the production of theory and collective
intelligence has shaped a and also you
know it has shaped europe in the
past two decades and yeah the the
the the group
produced a number of interesting books we
wrote the history of the amsterdam squatter
movement it's called to squatting to the
media in in english
but but the maybe in this context
the most relevant is the book that
came out in ninety two in dutch
and then in german and in a
and many other languages and eventually also
in english in ninety eight and is
called the media archive and mia aka
he said is really a book with
an enormous amount of speculative for figures
and concepts most famous is probably you
know the data then d which is
kind of for a person related to
the early days of of surfing the
web
ip witcher you know it was it
was strange phenomena for us that the
time and but also the idea of
sovereign media was very important suffered media
were basically media that were only broadcasting
to themselves and had it emancipate
selves from any idea of an audience
that you you know that i'm now
talking to you i'm not talking to
other people right we are just having
fun ourselves with the medium that we
are using
and in this case our media me
says the internet and so ah yes
so for us a sovereign media was
a very very important to emancipatory moment
because
broadcasting and to distribution can also be
be very cumbersome and to boring the
you know if you look at to
how a tick-tock and instagram you know
are producing an enormous amount of influencers
and how boring they are you can
see
data you know the the the broadcasting
or webcasting a
is is quite to a burden on
humankind we should really get rid of
that the that idea
because it's really
yeah not turn of the leading us
anywhere it's it's just a very very
boring content that comes out of this
to do to get rid of the
idea of of reaching other people you
know this kind of an evangelical a
impulse inside
us yeah is something you know that
we thought we should to make fun
of
yeah absolutely and the it's a good
question the one that you made about
to hawaii we are not speaking in
italian and i know that he also
speak italian and there
that was performed the another but but
then he had a lot of people
will not the i and
and
and the also agree about the quality
of content on the such an media
and the about that i think about
the let's say independence have thought like
i mean yeah we are having a
discussion then the discussion is going to
be published and an algorithm that we
do not control in any way
i
is going to
yeah i mean to distribute the content
based on the traffic but yeah
that even alex's him isn't is an
idealistic notion because maybe in secret we
hope that to you know and the
algorithm will visit us but maybe maybe
that's not even going to be the
case so in that sense of the
whole a icing is also based on
know a very idealistic notion that to
all content to you know will be
a utilized in one form or another
i fear that to him you know
that to it's going to be much
more much more bleak and emily that
to only very very selected kind of
as a group of from of content
makers and to people who are in
in control over over the databases you
know will air eventually defined you know
what a knowledge of for
for humankind is and it's very clear
for me that to very soon we
will have you know a kind of
shadow
cyberspace
outside of the ai machines where people
in a will still kind of trade
other types of of content because
ai will really be so boring and
will shut itself down necessarily for for
a range of reasons
so it will not to it will
not include the thoughts of of you
and me i can tell you
yeah and this is also a fact
connected with why we are speaking english
i mean at the moment the most
famous such a network came from other
countries may lie yet us
and the the called they're called also
be are some sort of political influence
because of that
of obviously
yes and and
yeah and that's why we're speaking yeah
yeah we have to understand that this
is already and the incredible a limitation
in a way you know when when
when we look at it to from
the incredible diversity and depth
of of cultural knowledge a worldwide
you know but when we don't even
have to talk about indigenous knowledge but
we can also just talk about you
know our own he doesn't really matter
there's so many layers that will not
to in open to that will not
be covered that will be excluded for
and forgotten
ah well if you know if we
do not to if we do not
act and if we do not to
actively organize the you know counter
database is count of knowledge counter libraries
of of the you know a written
and performed to human experiences into their
very rich in fact in order the
the the archives of the twentieth century
or are incredible or incr
audible and i i really fear that
most of that will just to be
forgotten because not just because it's not
a digitized right or the idea that
to we are going to boo as
save our souls
only through digitization is only partially
you not true
i think
there are any way an enormous around
the richness of cultural memory and the
to that cannot and will not be
digitized you know and that is any
way you know embodied knowledge already you
know a and the and
that's the the knowledge that we already
have from
you know stored inside us not just
in our brains bettina entire bodies you
and me and millions of others right
so
so we have to really really be
careful and in and in the coming
years not to reduce all this in
the hall you know a i a
spectacle that turned to his is ahead
of us
but i'm confident that too many of
us
in a will see that to this
is only will only represent a very
poor one percent of of all the
thinks the to that we've gathered in
have access to
yeah i'm prepared about terrorists that the
system that from an unnamed turned off
quantities will will go toward an internet
of quality
i shared his top of that the
we do not just prince content
the content yeah but the you asked
me before you know have about the
a to the history of content and
yeah for me that is a really
fascinating topic that to we don't really
a here
much about because
in computer science but also in silicon
valley
people have very ambivalent ideas about content
content and you know according to a
marshall mcluhan already at didn't really matter
right and the the really hardcore materialist
the media theory already tells us that
that content is really it doesn't it
doesn't matter i to it's not term
what it's about but it's about the
way or the computer networks are organized
to how they are and how it's
architecture looks like what it excludes and
so on so on but the content
itself
is is irrelevant
and yet in the nineteen eighties i
think or when i was really becoming
fully aware of this that was a
that was quite a shock because in
the sixties and seventies a we was
still thinking you know in in terms
of ideology and in terms of the
in maybe i had a gemini when
when you have good ideas and you
bring them and you share them you
know when among the people yeah this
these were all still lets her movements
that that that was driven by idea
that him if you if you have
good to content and if you can
tell the
truth you can convince people and you
can make a difference right and the
revolution will ultimately be driven by this
kind of a rotten rational emotive that
eventually the truth will set us free
right
and yet so this kind of a
realization that to this might not to
really be the case or not the
case any more may be in the
past you know it would have been
the case who knows
but certainly in today's world content is
just got this garbage basically and for
me that was very difficult because i've
always struggled with this idea
on the one hand i have to
fully be aware of it and have
to understand it and them to reconcile
that with it on the other hand
i am a content make myself you
know amber i'm a writer and
we're producing books and and videos and
so many are you know weird and
good
and the and subversive content right and
so this is this is a very
deep a paradox in our a in
our approach because our material is to
theories tell us have a very very
different idea
while our passion and our creative a
you know energy and and theory and
the political debates and everything right all
that is essentially a garbage content and
so yeah
yeah this is this is very difficult
and up up to today
this is this is a true even
more so in a in a i
you know the a i am is
a very let's say expensive and to
complex
the tea set of rules and to
and theories and to her languages and
to on
but are you know it it it
can just use the whole history of
humankind in a couple of weeks to
train itself right and there you can
already see that the the content that
it's a is using to train itself
is basically garbage can be anything
right
and so yeah that's a that's a
pretty shocking again and again
a to think that to artists will
not make a living writers
any kind of her creative worker
you know we'll have to be either
supported by the state
or just basically have an every day
job do something else and then create
of these beautiful things are you know
right to a symphony a novel film
etc
in the evening hours because the could
the content you will not be able
to make a living and the yet
this slow kind of realization of the
of the letter a pass to twenty
thirty years or has been really really
difficult one
for for all of us because if
you are really like us on top
of the game in the internet
this is the ultimate you know realization
that turn those who create a good
the contour the content are basically the
garbage workers
yeah absolutely
i
i like the paradox between the
producing content to and at the same
time recognizing the limit of that content
and the i'm thinking about the
do you said maybe the award contract
before so content contractor and the i've
looked at the institute of network cultures
needs him saw a wonderful project and
i'm also thinking about the i mean
network could be also network of people
network of devices
yeah network of devices and people and
the how we can
i am rehashing by the centralization and
decentralization was related to information but was
smaller and the information is power and
vice versa
yep and
i mean now there are new ways
may be for humanity to a related
to governance
and the
i dunno what is like democracy for
you this new
technologies can help to transform the system
that we are calling democracy i mean
liberata the western democracies and the yeah
what are your thoughts about the this
topic here from a media theory and
from an internet to pursue
effective having worked in his fields for
the last than thirty years i have
to say that the internet and democracy
day
a very little in common they then
they don't really touch or if they
touch it's pretty disastrous
so do we can talk about the
democratization the opening up of the medium
itself that is in itself you know
an interesting
one way and of course the i
have been working on that for for
all this all this time to to
educate people to show to her work
you know an open access of an
open source free software and a creating
the light libraries are making
no alternative content to available etc these
this is a did you use far
of a computer networks in in education
you name it right so this is
the democratization of the medium itself
now the relation between let a western
parliamentary democracy in the internet is a
very
it's a difficult one
from from from in fact from quite
early on the so there is no
real link let's start with one with
one very obvious obstacle and from very
early on the computer networks have may
be contributed to
the creation of discourse of you know
of of talking may be of also
of discussion or of debate you know
or maybe maybe get there are a
lot of from a hidden power place
there and inequality
ts and to you know thinks that
are but you could say okay that
the internet is it kind of a
discursive machine okay however you know is
that feeding into let's say the decision
making process that is happening in parliament
or in gov
government
hmm maybe not right very very problematic
due to to even point at you
know where where this this is really
a contributing in a constructive way right
nowadays of course we know that with
the internet
you can you know bring down governments
and and subvert all sorts of systems
right in the old right
is very very good at it and
so for the last ten years we
we have a really studied at length
you know how
internet culture and social media in particular
can be used to undermine let's say
the state of yeah the the rule
of law or a parliamentary rules or
you know corrupt
hm government apparatuses or or or political
parties you name it right
mark but most of all what we
see there is that the the internet
has had no influence what however on
something like voting is very very interesting
internet or is not a tool and
has so
far not been a tool for decision
making processes right you could say okay
maybe the the internet is used in
election machines but if you have a
lot closer look under you know if
you look at the the long history
of how hackers look at the design
it's way the internet can be used
in in the elections you you will
see that the most of the computer
hackers a will say don't use any
internet if you wanted you are organize
an election right and so this is
very strange with or
already since the nineteen nineties or when
you go to hecker conferences etc
the strong advice is don't use any
computer networks in the elections right because
they can and will be hacked or
and the whole the democratic process will
inevitably be undermined by our machines that
are so that is in its
self is interesting right so computer networks
and let a democracy democratic processes of
collective decision making they don't go together
them don't ride and so that in
itself is very interesting and this
is a take away of man he
many generations of computer hackers and i
and i fully agree that to you
know we should not or learn let
these two things are even come close
to each other
this is very interesting because i actually
i think we ever some technological solution
that could actually help people to agree
about certain topics but at the same
time is very true that the
technology can be hacked the in some
way and then add the result may
be is a compromised by and a
buck and so yeah i'm i've been
very interested in their decision making processes
and using and you know software or
in small
color groups and maybe even in smaller
a social movements but even there are
let's say the the outcome of that
was a a mixed feeling so uh
yeah the fact that you know the
the outcome can enjoy
will be manipulated is not a good
one it's certainly not it's not what
you want and this why i'm saying
the the internet can be used for
critical discourse but it's when it comes
to probably a collective decision making
it is very very dangerous and to
it's best to earth 'em off when
it comes to
voting and real decision making
i i understand the what you're saying
i hope that the ice till having
some way is to
may be ah
not use any more devoting system but
eventually to deliberate just talking as we
are doing now but about certain polyphenols
such an issue and yeah comes out
his are seeking is of course the
ideal but yeah let
some
i'm still very much in favour you
know that we do more experiments and
that so far in the last decade
and not many the such experiments have
happened and you could say okay and
i may maybe with the you know
the dallas
and the the the blockchain experiments that
was a that sir
yeah an attempt in that direction
but when you start to look at
it and we've recently you know studied
a book published the study
about that by into glue richer one
of our researchers here at the institute
of little cultures you can see that
these experiments they are very few and
the outcome is is quite to yeah
let's say a mixed yeah what what
you know does it shouldn't stop us
from are you know making further inquiries
in that field but and were definitely
onto that but it is quite telling
that despite the fact
that the overwhelming majority of humankind is
using now this the machines and devices
are very very few experiments are happening
in this direction
the english under title yeah experiment and
the maybe we find something that works
i dunno and i'm excited a dollars
and the i mean the blockchain word
and the of like to ask your
relationship between that money
a and ductile political system but also
because i know that the
the an initiative and initiative called that
money lab yeah through us yeah and
i've been intrigued with the the question
of digital money from very early on
here in amsterdam in ninety two i
already met david charm which are you
know he said the defender of deja
cashier which are please read to the
the wikipedia page about bitcoin he said
consider to you know one of the
one of the founders or intellectual founding
father
slutty and of of bitcoin years working
here in a them
i yeah the question are you know
how people can make a living
with these computer networks are is a
completely unresolved most of the hacker sue
already told me in the nineties a
you will not be able to make
a living with a with the internet
to forget about it
you know you can may be live
make a living or if you're if
you're a designer or a programmer and
you you know you work on the
actual infrastructure of it that there's some
money to to be made their that
to yeah if you if you are
let's say my
making music or of writing some something
up that a poetry or
you know a novel or a journalist
the for that matter forget about it
you can have a normal job and
then you you you can do that
in the in your in your free
hours in the evening because you will
never get money for what you're doing
and did and this is been you
know a decision of the people who
have designed to the systems
very early on
so it was always an uphill struggle
and the it still is
the
salute the
another crescent the last one i do
you have a message for all the
people that are actually working
in the civic tech field i mean
the tarp experimenting with technology from
yet that are beating software that show
belt people to deliberate or to agree
on a certain topic
oh yeah know for sure because i
i
you know
in my field we we had to
at some point confront ourselves with the
with the whole social media and to
what we call the platform blues and
this is something we have done or
not to voluntarily but only to understand
stand and you know the deeper the
drive into the implementations and to the
premises of this a right-wing libertarian a
populist movement that to you know was
a
was driven and was pushed forward by
silicon valley very early on right to
this tendency has been around already it
was there in the mid mid nineties
right so the techno the right-wing techno
a libertarians go back a long time
time and if you read to you
know that famous
essay called her the california an ideology
by above and camera from nineteen ninety
five it's already all in there so
we had to confront ourselves with with
that movement with that of force which
you know now with
the elon musk and and donald trump
is is kind of for you know
reaching a kind of her galium you
know world history level so yeah of
'em it make you also wonder you
know if it can can get any
bigger than than where we are at
the moment that to
yeah why not
maybe it can cause the also you
know a world war three and the
and the destruction of the planet as
a whole right i mean that's really
the let the next level we're we're
approaching as as sooner rather than later
i soak or the question there is
okay if if you have to if
you if the circumstances are forcing you
to to confront yourself with that because
you need to give an answer what
is then the status of let's a
small scale alternatives
is right and people who are working
on on on you know the the
software's and the protocols and the the
the prototypes the t you are mentioning
right and i would say that at
the moment we really really should come
together
here in europe you know in italy
france in in germany netherlands era spain
everywhere the eastern europe and come together
to discuss how we in an extra
couple of years want to and let's
say
a relate these to a activities in
and completely new way because if we
are not to you know opening up
this discussion we may as well
you know of follow the news what
the musk and and trump and zuckerberg
are doing every day and at what
we see also in italy is that
to the the counter movement is more
and more just confronted with keeping up
with the news because nobody
can really keep up with it but
this is all also taking away a
lot of our on energy and attention
to the alternatives the alternatives are out
there there are a lot of people
amongst us with very very good ideas
right and so we are running in
the
real danger that we have to focus
so much
of our mental energy and and collective
or anger and to woods or what
to some call in or the poly
crisis because it's a poly crisis right
and their related to its extraction it's
global a warming
it's a the disastrous her effects of
a i the the list of the
poly crisis as we all know it's
very long right so as day-in and
day-out we can just be completely overwhelmed
just the by the dealing with that
a and and thus forgetting that to
you know who are we we have
a whole range in factor of quite
interesting alternatives that to you have been
developed her in the back
round by small groups collectives initiatives right
and so when we really really need
to politicize
the the and find a new balance
between these two
i thinks that to ask of for
our attention and that's really the the
challenge ahead for the next to a
couple of years
thank you a lot berlin
the a wonderful very very interesting for
me
greetings to bologna
think job