Gareth Farry works with Amnesty international on human rights advocacy using blockchain technology

welcome on another episode of democracy innovators

podcast and our guests of today's gareth

barry

them at i mean we met a

nah can a community and i saw

your project that was really interesting and

do

i i dunno like as a first

question i would like to ask you

like something about your project and maybe

then we we we see something about

your background and the sure

and

well my project at day she ties

into my vagrants are just different into

that for a little bit i i

change as a lawyer lot twenty years

ago or bit more maybe and and

called admitted to the bar as a

barrister and solicitor and calling from auckland

new zealand and and

thin and the proceeding twenties of clever

always remain interested in that just from

a social justice point of view and

have worked a lot in such a

impact in an arts and music and

always set of with a social conscience

of being joined the music and art

expressions like that so lure naturally works

to that as well and i go

in the last twenty years or so

of really kind of reverse engineered the

what i got taught at law go

with the legal system the legal system

which is just one aspect of law

actually when you look broader there's much

bigger

modalities and jurisdictions and legacies histories of

lower sir i became interested in there

and february i i sort of apply

the law now at i didn't practice

and i don't act i just as

and in a man standing on the

land applying the law which is different

to a person who

who are your ex saw appears personally

in the legal system so the different

the different statuses a different jurisdiction and

kind of fascinated by what makes up

those claims in their statuses and lower

and different you're using different jurisdictions how

people in the know you know sort

of have private foundation the private trust

and things and actually upright in different

forms of law so that and she

said may and then the convergence of

that with block chain in with three

technologies and i saw as a natural

fit i used to run and run

label music label and have allison

we put up music physical copies cds

and vinyl around the world different your

six not a huge not not all

the way around the web be different

places europe north america japan a teacher

and and we found this once this

the shift to piracy in the digital

came at me and we'd no longer

hit a business model so

when i found out about digital scarcity

improve the will ownership in the digital

realm i i thought you know that

i haven't fifteen years ago teen years

ago i would have just made that

we were totally sweet because we could

approved ownership and it would have come

at a time when the digital models

hadn't developed so much so now streaming

is entrenched but really if you were

a bank was near a good model

to develop that was just the default

and logic of numbers in a nation

economic factors mean that everybody developed of

but really you could ahead in if

t ownership and provable anish of drake

to the arrest kind of like a

bandcamp model but

on the watch in are so there

are so the convergence of all that

stuff and also was identity same thing

he knew he had these passports and

and are

well have to carry them round neck

our identities as defined for us by

governments and other verify an issue as

a teacher and there make making seeds

of you talking about establishing cellphone and

lawful status because you needed to find

your identity to find how you interact

and what status you do so economically

privately socially whatever you know so on

these different statuses to

to employ so it was really converges

all those things and in you know

working on a project will be calling

it sold at the moment which is

the sovereign or it could be self

actualized identity layer to assist the blockchain

toilet talks about the status of the

holder and provides toasted to in law

and also just the and you know

natural on opening a spaces

for and self actualized identity so people

to determine their own ritualistic way to

to improve the first identity in the

then you have different aspects of law

that you could dependent out of and

use different statuses but you do you

do with paperwork and international law and

and you know you gotta make claims

is the thing

that would understand with identity you have

to make claims because these claims out

the other being put in your name

the best difficult and things that that

and the not generated by you you

don't control them and it's the cause

of a lot of economic troubles for

people because operating as a person the

legal system and the subject to rules

and regulations of global rubbery she huge

if you change of status you

not submit any other you you you

go why jurisdiction so yeah my background

in my am i am project the

really convergence of all that stuff so

identity lore and you know just the

whole the whole blockchain aspect of true

ownership and peer to peer and freedom

technology is is kind of were fascinated

by me i'm probably like you know

we we met and colonel when you

we talked i sorry you had a

lot of ideas and as i was

guys really know you're near and you're

testing things that sets co because you

get excited about it because the technology

is freedom to congee for applied royal

the moments like a casino right but

vertigo is where is where am i

hate it but you know as long

as you're sorry but you he or

not i mean

i really like what you said about

the reverse engineering the legal system like

a to to understand the what has

been the explain something that the wreath

the legal system but then can be

like a totals in different ways and

the

and also for like a ah

i will say good things because the

i mean my impression like and that

the law ah or also if we

see where it came from like i'm

in the first that universities are they

were about law or theology that were

like something that was very useful to

power

to control like of the land the

and pupil

but to for

i i i s also i was

really impressed by and may be there

are more lawyers that are interested in

blockchain because of these the similarity then

maybe other people are no fillers offer

or

and yet and i dunno about that

i think that must to the lawyers

are interested in in the boy in

the point of view because there's a

lot of way to do you notice

that as interesting novel area as far

as peering regulation with the blockchain and

how things were in that you know

that was christians around said dallas and

who pays responsibility and all this idea

of digital one hundred

of a hero transfers into real life

you know the real world when his

may be his aspects of harm or

promise being made or whatever below exchange

the a teacher says a lot of

work to be done to suit all

that out and that's what in a

mets one jurisdiction i not really i'm

not really an expert in that i

haven't could be but i have to

go to another t is training and

just die go in the a full

want to be able to really comment

within your authority on that so i

don't really work in that area but

there's plenty of work for lawyers i'm

not i'm really more of a lure

researcher or you know i i apply

the law of and abroad a seat

so i i would really i'm going

to do i am a lawyer qualified

lawyer button

i don't go around saying it

i totally understand you like i mean

know what we studied the or like

the the greeted with that we have

a obtain it just the name is

dust the olive the slug anything else

will let me learning about is just

to slither of the real truth you

know was just a little slither that

said special interest

just look at the limits the sciences

you know look at the health nutrition

mention of is know the sciences there's

no non physical aspect to it at

all we know you know that a

lot of the explicit generate the matter

and generate the changes in our will

actually non-physical you know the subtle subtle

forces of the universe can't be seen

as

and the non-physical there in different realm

sorry and saying you know it was

written in the east thousand years ago

in the with starting to understand in

a study to apply it but the

universities will possibly never reply that

yeah and it's very interesting i mean

i thinking the the university are like

a some sort of centralized the organization

and the with can be interesting to

see something the centralized and the academia

is dictated and and yet you can

only speak about certain things and yet

peer to peer reviewed

system is is just entrenched

chinch power dynamics like like all the

institutions everything needs to be decentralized them

in the pair of the masses and

o l thought persist as in our

ability of the come up with novel

ideas and use ai properly wished he

had the him and mess crowdsource in

to me in combination with ai can

run any

system any country you know which needs

to be given the thoughts that to

do it random i think that blockchain

provides a lot of toasted it with

is bigger dallas or whatever it might

be or even the liberal democracy of

the blockchain is to really good that

you know we've reached a point where

we don't need the bloke lot pedicle

political class and we don't need the

institutions that butler knowledge

and it doesn't really go anywhere with

the novel stuff as kept out so

yeah for me

yeah

and about to laker i mean na

your project your experiment with the i

mean the dow connected with ominously like

what are your impressions thoughts what happen

like how did you what we just

dumb for at the stage now of

just finishing away

paper

and then we're going to do

hopefully some sort of a will do

mvp night for some sort of and

semi public launch were using a three

three four different countries in the amnesty

region so ram taiwan thailand australia new

zealand possible one more am i gonna

do a little experiment and crowdsource advocacy

or human rights promotion of through adele

and through the mvp so yet

was that is that you know amnesty

international his i'm working with amnesty have

been doing three years now so am

i really really enjoyed actually i'm in

the reality and million member registered worldwide

database of members you know these people

which he answered the emails and dennison

sonatas members which has seen annie probably

a

i am minority of the extra potential

in our database but anyway so ten

million across seventy different countries and they've

got no coordination mechanism and you know

the point now where mcs of rank

caught historic model you know sort of

grassroots advocacy but really more of 'em

you know and log so to speak

so to move into the digital space

and low

the some of the core principles of

roxanne technology to apply to really enhance

human rights and transparency come in the

governance sure it's crowdsourced ideation and you

know reporting of verified journalism and supporting

grassroots activism straight from blockchain and a

smart contract payments as each other so

it's the sorta

has happened and projects around the world

especially when it comes to paying am

ubi i to say refugees or migrants

or whatever and humanitarian situations for instance

and but hasn't really been done on

the scale that we were thinking of

were resisting it a we're going to

taste premier two or three different chains

be cause the is he a few

quotes satisfied for

the business that for the organization but

you know where we're excited about the

fact that it couldn't it could be

caught of a you know really a

really powerful way to bring human rights

advocacy and instead of mainstream it a

little bit as well you know coordinate

and seen device actions that bring about

and you know anti racism or might

be just as

the aspects of humorous freedom of expression

freedom of movement the sorts of things

we'd such identify what they are and

then we can reward and promote them

and fund them through mechanism luck at

the helena sir

and i look you know a lot

of dell's are looking or ideas looking

for community where a massive community that

desperately needs coordination and you know to

enhance what we do into really delivered

in add value to the to the

ten million people already over a sort

of india you know talking about think

so it's kind of a no brainer

for me it's just a matter of

getting in

you are getting it done but year

yeah i was he like about these

the experimental with the for different countries

like is it more like on and

that your soup projecting like this experiment

desert or like do you already know

like which kind of software can be

used the i dunno

where would we will fund funded from

this first stage of his chain that

we got a partnership was was katana

cause they were dummy there were just

really open and i know that a

lot of such olympic stuff happening the

and through the project catalyst we got

we got funded so i'm partnering with

and rosalyn as and as a as

a friend and colleague paris-based her as

deep in the ecosystem with cut out

one social impact

and you know he runs weep three

impact a sustainable eight or and and

organizations like that so he is my

partner in the project in he said

looking after the ticks i with you

know we talking twice awake and we

have served really hurting in and drilling

down into the taken him you know

that having meetings as a means of

what a with people were gonna meet

in the conference

dubai and a week's time so going

to get your last off by and

so he's looking out of tick side

but things are things of all really

fast and the and i mean in

know a year ago would have been

completely different is you know thanks for

overtake but now of really feel like

em

cross chain interoperability is a cross chain

tokenization the things that have just in

the last little war become a lot

easier ophelia and seems like there's a

lot more functionality amazing things in a

integration in a certain aspects you know

especially when it comes to structure perhaps

of governance structure as will will come

in line sir

them as hard to really know down

the the you have to be the

for a flag on the ground said

we're going to going to do on

the stuff but we're we're pretty close

to 'em to confirm things year and

then it'll it'll just be as that

of certainly no reason is simple

one or two page the ideas to

earn a token and beer and burn

the token so you're going to earn

it were doing advocacy of doing something

or skills enhancement or having a say

or reporting on human rights action in

the community or whatever it might be

we're not sure you are going to

talk to the countries and figure out

what workspace for the supporters and then

you can burn it by voting on

a proposal or something else from not

sure what else sense of some sort

of oliver

lord system serum this that's kind of

what we're going to what we're going

to i am to do province of

timber

okay i'm very interesting knowing which software

and though which solution or and i've

i'm i'm curious because that and as

you said and i was all looking

also on your website i mean you

participate in the many and social impact

project lender was wondering when you

had this connection we the blockchain work

that you thought okay we have to

make a bow and the it can

warrior just briefly touched on the early

of rosacea because i was in music

and and friend of mine couple of

friends one here best he have one

based in the k over peter three

or four days maybe the

twenty twenty it was just when covered

with the whole covered blend in it

was starting and am i always like

you know what are we gonna do

in a and i lost a lot

of work because i i i didn't

get vaccinated of not interested in that

you know i mean people can do

what they want but for me i

might notice that this not want to

do so i lost a la contract

work and i was kind of like

pivoting i was just the right time

and needed somebody to get into and

what we know the penny dropped when

i found you know when i found

out about the idea with music you

could cause at the tanya was a

young artists in south oakland young polynesian

as his only seventeen years old out

and jason derulo who is a like

a num one him you know miracle

pop star took a tour

tiktok little link of him and put

on a song and and winter the

song me to number one that and

then there was this kind of like

that in a semi battle saying well

with it's my song and then he

was up against the of russian hanging

up getting i think a sheer the

meeting points on the record or whatever

cheer the music publishing i think i'm

pretty sure it was sorted out but

i just sort of thought of it

is the same time that was like

whoa that head of in on the

blockchain that future antonio i believe will

be like you put your song on

you put on an address on the

rochon it's a fist on is published

in the in anything that that the

an intelligent algorithms of the internet

someone tries to use their music even

if they do use it the blockchain

will pay you directly your sheer anyway

it'll be like a secondary sell situation

so you'll get you'll get your she

no matter what and in that we

know of the use of that particular

unique creation or music or whatever it

is on the allowed on the anthony

on the new ones in it that's

what i can believe and hope wherever

so evenings proven

the item and if you want to

use it you to sit the credit

copyright sheer system in place and then

it's all done through smart contracts anyone

can use it but they got to

give a tiny residual sheet of the

owner to everyone just getting ripped off

and even a i should be doing

the same thing with think because it's

drawing data points or me everywhere so

it's got the record so what can

i pay provable she is to everybody

even

if it's just the and thousandth of

a saint if it's of is referring

to my page i should be getting

a little kickback from there that would

be the challenge it in a respectful

system i think anything blockchain in the

future of can do that but not

the moment but you know so when

i thought about that for music was

like okay i need to get into

this because i was always into freedom

and freedom technology and

and you know cross-cultural work and in

different of in a different forms governance

and consensus and you know spiritual aspects

and all these sorts of things but

the the money in the technology was

like well they've got us the got

her or lockdown what are going to

do you know her back to trading

goal was like

but when i found out about this

if of money and for you know

for digital scarcity and trading on and

you know through the distributed ledger was

like a that as a huge missing

piece so the northern

yeah yeah it's crazy how many things

can be done the nowadays i think

ah i mean na about smart contracts

that is something i mean

i was a quite new and i

mean i now i has been many

years that we are using them for

x for experiments but still i think

that the the are something not the

we haven't discovered all the possibilities yet

the also because i

as you were saying like last year

it was very different in terms of

we didn't have a eyes so powerful

and also he allows them to program

and the and have like a busy

interoperability software between different chains and the

i associate or all the system that

is growing and and i i wanted

to ask something about you like your

press on the ground may be like

i'm also starting from when you were

a child like where you leave the

a later

this why and

i am but a grow up in

and in a little university town called

deleted and in new zealand of the

south island new zealand and and my

background is by debt my dad has

lebanese and my mum is scosche from

the that from orkney islands scottish to

the very kind of like if you

look at the whitney of a new

zealand of matter the world

new zealand and deleted down the bottom

right corner the names like the south

and the obvious like at the top

left in the top of the uk

of the very top of the royal

the top of scotland is a little

on and like fifty km or whatever

it is hundred two hundred k away

called orkney islands it's a moment my

mum's from the area and before that

sort of

mix of from

norwegian and english as well in the

in the neck so

that's my kind of background i mean

i i b m a carpenter aden

named and can revoke and music and

hospitality and things that they did a

law degree in anthropology degree and then

moved to the big smoke orphaned and

in instead of week to music and

culture up here for for a lot

and in the arming should work for

the british arts council ring the arts

program in use

seven years and so did a lot

of cool stuff and between the you

can use ellen and the arts and

it's yet he's a great times during

that period in also in asia with

to london asia because we are in

the regional in the regional east asia

team so those surveyed country so with

the law and met some really great

great context and friends so have today

in that region serum yeah

i've always worked in the cross between

arts and culture i mean arts culture

and in nanotechnology more and more lately

but and social impacts this is my

favorite my favorite ours really stuff that

sees something whether it's visual music my

favorite artist the ones who rock the

boat and a political and spiritual and

say something different you know it so

because i've always be

drawn to that kind of work to

so you're suddenly also anthropology that the

zoo

but interesting also the the bathroom doing

now is the i would say alpha

is three and of anthropology

do something about global hell to a

nine anthropology class of later interesting

that were so you focus won't and

particular and like health modalities from from

the past or different ropes regions are

you looking at

i mean that one was a class-a

by a professor that he is quite

famous evil quaranta is a medical anthropologist

the and reelect nicholas them

it was very very interesting about the

and yet global health the

from an anthropological perspective in them

the last the fifty years i will

say

or the self to know as demonstrated

slightly the just too much together

i'm not gonna james biological health a

to yeah

there's an year but was very interesting

because it was the in a way

also problem advising the way we do

i

we our relationship with health and the

and i think it was a quite

and put it is quite important to

do it also refer relation ship with

science and and song and and

yeah it's a the myself because it's

like you know so i think that

of us have any now's people understand

that you've gotta come back to your

self you know you as you gotta

you gotta take control because it was

fucking crazy and the people that are

supposed to be rolling the would obviously

psychopaths or it at released in ourselves

let you got to

in know just sort of say enough

is enough for for me anyway the

people have to do that either and

but for the i i can see

you know enough is enough but if

you use against the and look after

myself on my own health and my

own mind and just play information there

and just

no responsibly forge own path because i

don't trust the government tyranny of those

institutions they're all they're all corrupt by

by nature now know by designers a

slight just cause of been around so

long and is so convoluted and so

many special interest knocking his against each

other that the just they have to

be corrupted

yeah are you mean the way that

the i'm thinking about hierarchical system and

how the worker and though i mean

if you are on top voids because

the you some one voted you and

saw you make to make you happy

also it's it's quite the saw yet

they are

have to be corrado wire to work

or

but i mean i think that decentralization

and distributed knowledge skipped though is going

to be it so

yeah absolutely

oh so now they're talking about the

collective intelligence and the i i mean

if in the future probably hierarchical system

where

maybe not all the only weight but

the easiest is their way

to have like a lot of people

that could leave together i dunno this

is what happened historically and

but this in our technology as something

that could helping the the centralized power

and the

and unlike the this thou i mean

i see that their primary goal of

this project include a desire to improve

participant coordination for the tamil a member

of amnesty support base

and these are quite ambitious project that

the i mean it will be awesome

to see something similar and and and

and also question and related to how

did you start like your discovered web

tree i mean the blocked in word

then you add the some thoughts but

then how did you do

like did you contact amnesty you were

the gerade they have a contract going

for and partnerships and think ahead of

a little innovation in the and in

the rosso i just went and talked

to and at that point i asked

you know just sort of citizen i

think there's something really powerful happening in

blockchain and i think that and

with such a broad offer as kind

of their organization around the world that

historically any now nowadays as well and

tins of research and advocacy and

pushing protecting people advocating for people were

prisoners of conscience etc teacher

the emphasis is kind of always the

ship you know so it's a very

broad offer him the rise of slope

yeah surely we could find a way

that we can incentivize in reward people

or a or do something around human

rights protection cause analysis he did am

had said education to to because if

you know the example use of fight

in the room one hundred people see

who could it be hand if you

support him rights like ninety nine percent

put put up the hand right but

of and see to the mortality where

human rights tell me about them described

to me or or or you know

explain what they actually are then you'd

have the opposite lennon here at night

didn't they will put wouldn't raise the

hand because no one really understands what

does have a

applies to your life and how to

use it in for the historical crucial

moments that lead to each human rights

whether it's know apartheid falling of the

disney into the death penalty in big

lots of various countries amos's advocated to

cc four and numbers of countries near

twenty something i think so

they sought the things and people who

are doing these actions they should be

recorded on blockchain him people should be

at a carry round that reputation is

something withers and mc delaware river but

they should this this of the things

of with value in different forms of

value if you can save this attempt

value in the attention economy

or the movement economy surely this value

in the human rights call me that

we can if i knew you'd been

to go that signed the end of

the death penalty and in malaysia you

know but a different perspective on things

you know view of the holder they

ain't so bad enough tastes like well

they can stores so why why are

we not recognizing the things we got

sports stars and celebrities and

never read a lot about human rights

you know so combination all that stuff

i just thought it's gotta be something

here we should look into it

and then it's a started from the

and you know that there are a

lot of work and you know editor

laura explain to people to understand what

it really was about but the technology

it's about what it can achieve rather

than immediate need to know tcp ip

protocols on the internet to use email

to use the we didn't need to

know that stuff's the blockchain at the

moment we do

anita bits and pieces and i was

his huge ecosystems voting systems and modulus

and making them all work together but

we as the consumer where the user

or the individual owning the identity we

don't really need to know about that

stuff we just need a knitted have

a good you extra make sure that

it works in the unstained the upside

of the aca with a if i

own the stuff and i can

do something good and it's recorded that

lead to some sort of value in

the future the numb

oregon support my friend of my neighbor

who's doing something really amazing that can

get support i can like and use

amnesty told to crowdsource ideation or support

or and fundraise for the immodest point

support journalists to are doing verified reports

and can't get any any coverage but

the doing the verified reports from the

ground you so

all these different use cases of i

have evolved as with developed the process

and in the and the project itself

in the research but i just the

thing it's kind of a no brainer

so it was just series of discussions

really a think

presentations in a yeah

i was thinking about them

sort of philosophical question real in relationship

with flow and the

the the i mean and smart contracts

so like he now in our own

western liberal democracies we we have the

division of power that is executive legislative

and the traditional

i dunno power and the but sometimes

i thought like with smart contracts you've

right the law and then the law

is also excellent executed at the same

time

i remained the thing is concede the

code code is lower

it has executed in the in the

on the block blockchain the have it

relates to sundays they have his implications

in real life that we don't really

foresee so is obviously the you know

that said it's a very interesting area

of research and questioning and real real

real world application it's coming you know

so we can find out these issues

and if to have to sort them

out there were you thinking

yeah i mean i i was pinky

and as you say like in the

future we will see i i mean

in the future we will see new

technologies but also i see that

i then i think about the something

that can be also sauce in a

way the this topic this topic laker

i dunno electronic locks and for homes

so i had or not are you

the lend me some someone a year

and there we've writing the smart contract

that every month i had to give

you back a that amount of money

and they fade dont i dunno my

electronic lock doesn't open any more with

my key but he thought albany while

the list of coming it's more like

you can't won't be able to get

on the airplane and you won't be

at a

you carry out of the city and

you might get a refund feel that

you might be a lot of stuff

like he has the chinese social credit

thing apparently the inner he was in

a second hannah and how much over

here in it so situation happen some

he this of stay this why of

insane saying for me this is one

lone voice in chose plenty others but

i keep saying which we need we

need a own hardly aina and one

neighbor because if they can take the

an entity in stop i in the

any blockchain apple whatever angel you know

then what what are we gonna do

then

we thought that through what are we

going to do so we we need

to be aware that stuff's coming down

the pipeline is it that's definitely the

the logical an issue of what's happening

as as as getting to that point

in oh so and yeah we need

to do something about of sure

yeah absolutely and also sometimes i dunno

like and

there is designed the about social credit

score relationship with them

the technology and also this kind of

gimme vacation system that rewards people left

a participate in something

and if and they believed that if

it can be was in away some

very nice topic if it's made in

a centralized way so i don't i

imagined like a king a president that

gives like in a hierarchical wait

but this is also what happened with

capitalism so i will say that we

already live in such a credit score

system

exactly quitter yet as now called it

the same same thing more everything about

what

the the living is a free man

or woman actually is if we design

means that all the systems that we

design our for the benefit of the

natural environment for people's health for exploring

consciousness for elevating the human spirit to

all these things that we could put

all the resources towards their then

that will bear the humidity being free

my opinion but with almost got the

opposite you know everything's

and health next a second

where it makes you poor and all

the sensor

yeah because the may be corporation that

is this things we are working on

knifing because at the end the every

project that wants to have such an

impact it means that people up to

cooperate together and or i think this

is the most difficult thing in the

story people instead of cooperating the start

killing each other

or thirteen before the killing each other

they compete with each other and then

at the certain point the start killing

each other and as a little about

resources and money i mean other than

i mean of have often thought would

be the will be like we just

took away money and we just pretended

yes of a winning by macrophages pertain

to hand over the money and then

they pretend to play the supplier i

mean some

laser things wouldn't be there difficult will

just have to learn to cooperate and

the people that didn't cooperate with just

idiots or maybe money was free and

we have this abundance like muslims the

enormous seems to think we have abundance

favorite bodies slept that we live in

a finite resource planets of with a

guy who wants one hundred tv's or

hundred cause he wasn't going to corporate

with union so i think

the resume mature

the solutions to these systems kind of

converged you know i think that will

get to the point where people have

to step up and be mature and

responsible when coast steward you know environments

in relationships and communities in the numb

and started hidden on a massive scale

nothing the majority of the was during

the spot says that reflected in the

mainstream system

on on the mainstream narrative sir

i have great hopes of humanity but

we didn't need to get this big

rock the way of first the centralize

rock of filth you know we need

to get it out of the way

in it

the void that development parallel system yeah

yeah i'm very negative in short term

and very positive in long-term morgana same

the crazy

by the oberoi doesn't make any sense

though so you know you gotta think

was got a sort itself out sooner

or later about him in who knows

how long the i will have you

know into the exists go when we

were taught war and like history was

called you know history that it was

war but site does being was my

whole life saw history it's just a

skinning was a worse so

you know we were taught that of

have something to heaven in the past

the world wars which are a european

was i went will was a european

wars but you know this sort of

war endless war idea is and then

it never went away

yeah yeah well i was thinking before

that the it's a sort of cultural

problem i mean we are used to

compete with each other i mean the

way we are educated like also starting

from school i mean now we are

educated to just think about the our

grades and not about the

also the situation in the glass and

i think there are some hm

i mean and awaits that are related

but there are some

ah kind of experiment what was the

related to technology i think about the

forty to school or where they evaluate

people not just the on their and

on what they did the but about

all the team and and the think

that these the help people understanding that

is not just about us but we

are altogether as in term of resources

and the

tournament yet this year

the lots of books about tail organizations

and

hala chrissy and thinks that the nice

at ideas of horizontal ownership and shared

resources a teacher so i think that

'em yet i i do feel it's

or happening i think it's a it's

happening in the right way that just

as gonna be really take a long

time and be

unevenly distributed you know that the a

features or inhibit is not not evenly

distributed yet just the culture you know

the focus of people doing amazing stuff

for sure

and when you talk about time how

much when the think it it's going

to happen at nights it's it will

be just speculation because we don't know

what have what what what is going

to heaven

nah like and i i mean now

we are tokyo's also about the and

the possibility to have some a decentralized

organization of for amnesty but also maybe

before other and

entities so i am thinking about these

are possible decentralized ward where everyone has

and the through the that the

collaboration is better than competition and the

i dunno if we will see this

word but the in a way i

think that the that any one is

necessary and i think that's probably honoring

the authority of those of the future

that we want to say there's gotta

be that those people who just there's

lots of people you get who get

the kicks out of capitalism the dirt

the well when they quite heavy not

to hear about other people in has

lots of people do the who get

the kicks out of capitalism do really

well and do amazing things for people

you know arena in some ways i

think pretty probably the majority you know

most people i think already got so

other thing that's going to be like

a complete split the these are just

different tools we can use but we

need to my opinion minute yet to

a secular

humor communities and families and and cultures

and groups of people have ownership of

their resources and decision making power about

about money creation of many use and

in responsible stewardship of the resources each

or so and that will happen and

chameleon and and degrees in different places

i don't think there's going to be

a date and it's already happening in

some places and so time was

as

kind of you know i mean it's

also about when you decide that you're

ready to do it a new and

body and the in the time has

now kind of thing and so you

know a up nothing is happening

and that the so maybe the time

is now like to start now all

we know old time is now that

than other point obviously everything's is already

happened and we are living in a

eternal present moment so you know when

you think about everything's going to be

a ride in the in the visions

that we can foresee of the future

already here and happening in this there

are thing cause there are though

thoughts and they have form and content

and and energy so they are already

building right now you know the features

already here we just visited the future

and the present moment and as already

being built by consensus so and in

a time wise

a museum may i let the aisle

at the 'em as the thing of

the buddhist cohen or something about the

you're saying that you know the butter

came across to

to believer's and in nfl it is

fatal in the first once you get

a master when am i going to

be enlightened any and he was like

on you know maybe in a two

or three light last times you're doing

great two or three less as is

like an hour that long that long

and ran away sobbing the elements he

was master must have minimal that'd be

a lightness of the for we took

two or three three four last time

that he went all i got

isn't so close in infamy was enlightened

on the spot in i saw

you know i think what is diamond

what is what are these things he

really means no rush i just want

in of the woods bit it for

my kids and we we went we

went to school and we got taught

things in and was almost of was

was just a a a slither of

truth you know the true through a

lanes of materialism and empiricism and eurocentrism

and over intellectualism

she right the our for my children

to understand the world's coaches and spiritual

traditions to understand different forms of mathematics

and who medics and these sorts of

things to the real knowledge of the

east understand the in to be up

to used a our toes to earn

digital passive income and to do it

responsibly and and deemed the donate schooling

one of the i mean that they're

at school the moment but i'm also

saying to them a this is just

one thing we can learn these things

and in our teacher some other things

as well when they're not going to

go through fifteen years of schooling though

only you know we'll be doing other

things to

sosa to explore the plurality of knowledge

turn different cultures semi many things in

there was a whole thing around the

covert thing was like we had that

the western w a you know injection

model and that was a and slight

well even in this country this two

hundred coaches living units one of the

your considered one of them as per

capita and

diverse cities in the will you know

the top five and said we had

begun to hundred coach stephen none of

them are allowed to say in know

five thousand year old chinese coaches not

to tell us anything about healing for

for a violent suppose that viral infection

so that all that stuff was like

could i a past that minutes just

benefits one central control system at the

expense of everybody

else materially health wise spiritually mindspace wise

you know the mental damage said we're

gonna get past that stuff

yeah i totally agree about the a

exploring different cultures because sometime we just

think that our is that the best

one but that's because that we have

ridden books that our culture is the

best one i mean is is then

also lead to to colonization and i

policeman other

kind of things and then before you

mentioned the word consensus that is are

a very interesting word

and though i do not do you

have any thought about it

time

the a a different different different on

different ways of of being in different

cultural ceilings different times obviously i mean

consensus eleven new zealand this is a

by cultural we even indigenous modi people

will tongue of the fino of the

people of the land so consensus-building and

the communities on the mri which is

the meeting meeting houses for the and

in a communal disk

russians comedian community decision making and and

celebrations as a teacher you know so

the consensus-building takes days in it's very

well measured in it brings and spiritual

aspects and in all sorts of things

and then on the other side of

the wisdom in the the packer saw

it with a white side and the

museum consensus is very quirkiness could have

been done in your nine fifteen means

nine fifteen in it's very linear and

this though concepts of what michael pacific

time are many in the pacific coaches

new zealand say time you know what

time of are going to make you

a little the flight will mate when

the time is right and if i'm

missed the spoke of mr that trying

to midst of not supposed to be

there that time sir he got to

show patience so consensus-building is very difficult

i think and and burning it in

a digital space it as that enough

you can hard-coded

and to i dunno if you could

have had all of it and to

smart contract designer or protocol designer think

that the needs to be some sort

of fluid reach to in do you

know like it was like geospatial fluid

fluid as he needs to be like

a cultural fluidity so he can if

collective consensus-building not just individual with

then seen checks very individualistic this consensus-building

the i decide this and a decide

their we decide one rotation

then you've got the other forms of

consensus building that are older and then

new a reflections of that which unlike

like quadratic you know conviction voting for

these sorts of things on block chain

which sort of trying to honor the

fit that we're all different we all

have shifting ideas about consensus and making

decisions so it's a it's a tricky

topic a and induction and and

you take the sure

absolutely and if in colorado for i

have a lot of thoughts of a

in relation to consensus the something that

the

yeah

because a yeah i mean i think

to earth

consensus i mean they should do not

have consensus in a way you have

violence in sight of their group because

it could be there

i mean dictatorship of the majority and

them and also i think you out

that consensus can be reached laker

yeah

but i and i i associate concepts

of with power lay power in a

sense that the in the oriental power

like i dunno like today we had

we had the consensus about having this

chuck

and we are indifferent spaces

i

but they will say also in the

same time i mean that

different time zones

but maybe it could be like a

specifically about this kind of topic same

time of our lives

ah that's why we have this consensus

may be five years ago you didn't

have these the passion or maybe i

didn't have these the had totally

when the a consensus of the meeting

of minds and things

it's a i mean a powerful moments

you know in life and then now

new digital connection lie for me through

kernel of had some good connections with

people and good discussions and you know

concede to the bad idea that even

kind of comes i think to will

be met in that program can't even

sort of comes to it with like

a m unwritten concede says

about what we a hit you know

he to do no one's doing exploitative

or extractive kind of models that i

just want to read poetry by the

of trying to pump coins or anything

like that no one's doing it to

the steps of have already got a

consensus about what we understand people kind

of about you know in the is

that funny at the details but i'll

love to learn more about in one

of the

prejudice on your minor around can see

just gonna you you to through through

a few things that you are working

on the what's the what's the conceived

his modeling tool that you will kind

of doing

as the one

a water was work jana you renew

here

ah i dunno if it was a

consensus the

if it was to reach consensus may

be it was awesome civic participation a

platform that i have written the white

paper and have also developed a small

prototype and the but eventually can show

it the

coffee than the others in will then

i think that i'm also for there

was going to make before is that

consensus i liked the idea of rough

consensus like the idea that will never

going reach a pivot consensus when as

not going to be unanimous is always

going to be different viewpoints but as

long as we reach a point we're

and the legitimate sir

state your concerns of everybody are answered

even if i say okay come a

hippie to pocket now and the next

version where to revisit it but thank

you thank you for us unpicking what

my concern is about we were heated

as long as we can do their

need to give everybody an open floor

the me to learn to be a

rough consensus and move forward for the

benefit of the alignment

of the whole project or the mission

or attack as human rights in other

words we're going to get lost in

the awaits if we try and argue

every aspect of human rights so i

liked the idea of rough consensus i

think it's a tiffany a kind of

workable option is to respect all parties

input though you and said someone's got

a real grievance he can't step over

there even if as any one

person at one hundred you know you

have to it she deal with it

otherwise your break the rules of the

respect of the consensus building

yeah i think he also maybe about

their and

like if i'm part of a group

of of our community and i disagree

of course i can now also accept

the fact that the other people thinking

a certain way so asset that decision

otherwise i can also decide like to

go away but that sounds some time

it is hard that because may be

it's not

so easy to find another group but

the if that the process is made

easier by technology so i dunno i

don't want the the blue collar but

the prefer the yellow one i can

find another community in easily way that

the want to use their yeah

hello color and then i am

but of course community also have to

been some sort of the they have

to be connected the and i thinking

about all designed for interconnected the war

the

yeah

where everyone in know ways free to

explore liked to not been a community

where he doesn't feel good about it

is and the same time you can

form or another one or he can

join another one and then eventually that

can be mediation some sort of immediate

mediators between different positions

it's not really clear to me

now and and i think also for

most of the people is something new

but relieved

i was at some his aspect that

we need to to the impact it

about the actual day-to-day actions they were

talking about as a lot of us

very small things that revolver and recently

insignificant amounts of money that i just

painful when annoying and and if we

can remove a lot of that stuff

between personal interactions and interactions were between

us and institutions such as

or or an automated through a always

you get a lot of stuff done

there may be here but more space

to

in an elevator sell thinking hiring in

and try and reach consensus by leading

some of that stuff go and concentrating

on one and things that are going

to be more beneficial be if consensus

about i mean love stuff that happens

with consensus-building and governance and things zum

just kind of nipper picky and people

sort of

sticky onto their ideas and thinking the

a vision of this the way that

things should be governed

is the best one end somehow gonna

you know be like a it a

face it they can construct in the

future and it's going to how's everybody

and i just don't have this can

be the case i think things that

don't have to be really fluid and

people going to have to let things

go and go to use technology to

get rid of some of the crap

in our lives you know some of

the things we we end up having

to do bureaucratically

the or whatever it doesn't it's not

good for us to be constantly

the calibrating mirrors the hypocrisy

the grow a lot of things that

doesn't really have a sense in our

society i mean the we drew them

because we think her

we live in our society we do

not with of things we just do

them better healthier

eva it's bad for your health as

well do not even if we know

things are wrong and we don't question

the more trying to the incremental little

thing to change or whatever then it's

going to kill you in the in

this my bit of here

it's my personal experience in her or

the got a deal with it hate

on and realized that the even our

range of what we think as living

how healthy and happy life a thing

as to severely restricted and bounded within

you know within

ill with and limits that there is

an of the true potential i mean

i think we can be living and

to galactic lives of the blessing co-creation

and it's you know and at the

moment we're not really getting too close

to that so

your you mean like the attitude of

from thinking that having a long life

is better than having a

having your own life or maybe having

a lot of luxury things and living

living like having unlimited material wealth

some they would say he make them

happier i mean it would make me

happy to have unlimited material wealth but

in the challenges how to use and

and had an and sure that you

don't get lost in materialism because at

the new davis not going to be

for your evidence of you know these

ideas about happiness and what we really

want for the word individually extent thing

we have a perception of what we're

capable of you as

humans and the we are iron our

evolution of devolution or whatever it is

whatever path we're on on the cycle

so yeah i'm not restricted in my

thinking in that respect

yeah some some years ago i was

questioning about their the meaning of life

and i wasn't able to give our

a reply to myself so i am

i thought okay i love i think

about the excluding song song things so

i was being like a is it

a good car

our like a beautiful car the meaning

of my life as i was not

is it a good the beautiful home

not as i was doing go all

the sphinx to discover what was there

the meaning of life and clear don't

have a i dunno what what is

your life is just keep asking that

question i keep wondering i mean i

don't think anyone can see that the

thing yeah me a life as to

give life to life he notes that

the lot to be life to bayonet

the be alive

then you're halfway there in my opinion

that that it's many things we we

can even o'gara rather than

when it this year

so it's it's always a question or

never a reply never announcer of the

visit

the things i think mr the beauty

of it know we'd already get an

answer because in this form we're not

capable or appreciate of understanding what that

answer contain hung it just goes on

for ever

yeah an also sometimes this can be

dangerous

ethics yeah the answer the question

here

and the i mean going back to

the to the dow like a how

do you

you made you need like ah

are also like what are some mom

goals that you expect the from is

the

i are also something you're struggling with

i dunno maybe the sophie you're not

a willing to him

i mean really

for me the biggest challenges know implementation

and and just continuing to have people

see the vision and get people on

board

and do the takes day and just

the different elements answer that

the next challenge the think is actually

can finish it takes stick to taste

and leave it malleable enough that somehow

we can predict the future to always

be able to adapt and of over

there is going to be really hot

because once easier for cemented dow a

structure in the ground you can't you

don't really want to change too much

about it

usb copying pasting information or launching on

other chains or hard forking i don't

think by them

so let's yeah that's that's a big

challenge of like expert in that so

i have to take advice and known

as i go along and mean you

are trying them here and so there's

definitely a challenge and as to what

we want to achieve me we just

want to show what is profit possible

i was coordination the nerve of ideas

and people who are who are aligned

around of the purpose of promoting human

rights and how we can somehow

and submit incentivize divisor of and reward

that so people understand this is a

model that can use to benefit societies

communities or hypothetical situations or whatever it

may be it is that she'd look

at what we want to achieve in

supervisor

director source no big institutions no big

funding programs and us aid situations in

all this stuff just decide what we

want to record and we are possible

how it can be recorded and tokenize

on the blockchain in the name reward

or a source that the impact in

a

in them so that the challenges the

things that are my mind reminded what

we want to get achieved in theory

a human rights so you know to

give it a shot

the because up for other kind of

projects like ca

people were saying that the i mean

money or are an issue because maybe

they were not able to find the

money for the development of of some

platform

but we all can make a case

pretty good sarah we've managed to get

funding so far so am i think

combination between thinking through and written really

understanding the use case in what you

know what will got to offer and

in the fitness go to organization or

amnesty that's really willing to have the

conversation and understand upsides and c c

a vision and

you know i just think it's a

bit a no brainer actually so the

of going into

that those apply for a lot of

funding but we've been successful with project

catalyst and at a at this point

so and and i think once you

get sort of people who understand this

is worth doing because also sets a

precedent for ngos and in will white

organizations that they should look at an

aspect of us you know because it

have to translate transit and

transform your whole organization until the dow

or whatever and run everything throw it

just be there will be chaos fishy

further amnesty's is too much the or

so but for supported coordination is for

cause based of theme-based situations or initiatives

are campaigning advocacy and it's it's a

no brainer as a to miss as

far as i'm aware just the took

outside

hello help keep incentive and people valuing

the input and getting what they perceive

out of the out of the project

oh the dow that's the tricky thing

so you know that a require some

adaptability and

in swift being swift and our fate

for sure

yeah

and the and in the dow an

hour i like are the more people

that are working on it like a

how how is going like that i

not am you are saying that you

were writing they're not the white paper

but limb though it may be of

the

but of this made the this to

to of us at the moment her

are doing some them half time on

his point five each and

and rez groundbreaking with and his he's

got a network of people is he's

talking to him we talking you know

to the mall and so which are

networking with a lot and i'm doing

the same with an amnesty stakeholder community

withers had you know mc taken the

uk or my regional colleagues so 'em

with is continuing to talk and traitor

and to this reasonable

involve talking it through time with my

director here in new zealand she's she's

i'm ready onto him and wants to

know more and in understands and compose

tough question the thanks so it's just

about him and conversations with people once

people get it and kit that blockchain

is more than just bitcoin or a

cryptic

currency or whatever else is other use

cases for and they and similar technologies

the afford the in you can have

conversations because the penny drops of them

after a while and they really think

of a can use it for their

the it means i can can use

it for anything mls to my day

the not then the visiting him he's

in his eighties and sit 'em

near this house you could tokenizer than

the future new mechanism not quite the

now at one hundred people go owner

only ever get solved then they get

the hundred cheer automatically is no debating

anything it or i could just you

could one one hundredth cheer other it

will give you be limited rights obviously

to be in here but and you

could have some rights of of you

know every couple of days a year

for the time she or whatever and

the

you can just show you one hundred

cheer and it's very simple redoing the

book changes know in you need articles

to zoom in the price etc or

whatever it my baby as far as

the sheer in the ownership railroad ownership

of assets of things and he just

the page of news like wow so

that means you know the ear that

means of a for everything else you

know so finchley don't need to own

a full house

house or you can't afford it then

for a young people that should be

thinking about the solutions i think

and the

so you're you're merely to people that

power are coordinating derm work you on

the project right and the i was

when the lake is there any

i dunno was a sort of choice

like to just be two people are

like you're also finding other people to

collaborate with because may be at an

awesome one listen to the to this

episode then

we have tried to talk to anybody

who want oozed interested in

as and you know what saw the

help for wants me to help them

a little better or whatever i'm i'm

happy to talk because some iowa's find

this yeah when i started out in

the we have three and blockchain was

it's quite lonely because a lot of

people doing stuff and also suffers from

the cut of i mean american centric

of

model we're even you know your got

influence and so you get more influence

in its kind of like well as

a few other things to say so

i just gravitate to the ones who

want to talk and it can never

interesting discussions and and

enter the in the day that's what

it's about for me i mean oh

i have i've got enough work and

things to do on other as vixen

my own projects and blockchain inches me

so i am i'm putting effort into

her and i'm enjoying talking to people

women

find that with thread is and to

piss tiffany the best ecosystem i've ever

been out of and things people think

fast and they act fast as well

you know and i like that because

then i go back into the lazy

with on

like things take forever to get done

yeah this bizarre

here is that the thing about using

ai to infrastructure and you know understanding

how to use them to correctly respectfully

content wise and things and i look

at people her i work in aina

and other organizations and i come and

twenty with him and i'm trying to

get things are pregnant is think

you got to upskill man you gotta

get with the times things that can

move fast in earnest it's good because

we can keep the momentum going so

many projects and ideas get kilby the

spirit gets killed because the bureaucracy just

crashes and

anguish and the here any longer

yeah people on the internet the the

their found his way

to corporate or something care about open

source and yeah yeah and it's great

also that human conversation and i mean

a as you said that a lot

of people do staffer

do but there may be the most

important things is a to talk especially

also now because i'm thinking i mean

my dream is that people can have

a i dunno this kind of conversation

and then the may be

there are transcript that the end that

they can analyze like and i collect

the way so we can not have

all the different opinion all the different

views and so maybe we can also

coordinate like out we fall lot of

people am

he now reads until way yeah yeah

there was one of your ideas about

the about the minutes tap into other

people's fades a in the thought processes

and having open sourcing your tabs on

your computer kind of faint you're going

workflow and things that there is a

is like a shared and and analyzing

then you get real time feedback from

the emission you know is apple vitalik

you

looking at series a whip we pages

and the you get real time feedback

from algorithm same way she metallic is

looking at these ones which seemed to

be the next step forward and the

evolution of these ideas and it means

you don't wait you're not wasting time

you richly if the able to

in a crowd source and in

disseminated can information it's good for everybody

right so was it with the idea

that you are talking about

i mean i was surfing he like

and

our about the having saved all their

good ideas that people can ever in

some sort of from conversation ah like

i dunno i

in a i mean in traditional system

people water

and while love with the system that

we have now or the term being

developed to i think that people can

just talk about a certain problem either

we can talk about the an issue

social political issue and then old saw

the people do the theme and then

it could be that we dont have

have to vote because we already knows

all our ah different point of views

and so like i i dunno

i can mediate between a

different people or eventually can also say

okay alex and garrett are thinking the

same way so we discuss or may

be other know alex and forty are

not and garrett are not thinking the

same way so we have to discuss

about that and the all discount the

of things that

also called reduce reducer polarization because i

i think like and

ah

personally i have seen a lot of

polarization in the past years but the

for for every kind of do i

dunno a conflict the

i could be your cleaner greener russia

could be gaza israel the could be

the situation about to coffee the i

mean the sometime people are not really

able to discuss understand all the other

person's point of view and them

and

yeah if i'm thinking about the

democracy the future

i will like or saw to see

a place i mean award where people

are

how do you say laker i mean

they want to listen to the other

people like they want to understand their

point of view

yeah i'm sorry it's

it was quite confused further

it's a rare thing is a big

asking yeah skinny it's getting late so

hilarious gave you need another coffee i

probably need to heat of soon to

but yeah i mean audit i think

that are to does is going to

be one solution that fits over is

going to be toes that people used

to be able to connect with others

and she knowledge and fund

what other people thinking much mine are

much more rapid way so they looking

for solutions they can find it and

alex in bologna and has also thinking

about the same consensus-building thing in this

about he's working on eyes is open-source

to what he them with could

and

we can do that by asking a

article was certain things but we don't

really have that live

sort of fade potential am i mean

one a howard work i really thought

about it properly but

the sharing of ideas and boating collected

consensus and thirteen iterating and voting for

it it's kind of like an id

that is almost thumb

it's like an exponential idea really a

exponential idea even know what i mean

the knowledge that you could get out

of they could be exponential when you

get a hold of the human consensus

of minds working together went through really

kicks into gear who knows who he

going

yeah absolutely like and

i think that there is a lot

of richness in having different ideas and

the if we find i mean if

we are ready to accept other people

point of view at and also if

we use some instruments that that passes

in doing that then

we could actually see like a different

kind of future and the kind of

word

but who knows

i think i couldn't agree more things

i think it's already happening and it's

gonna happen whether becomes ubiquitous probably doubt

it but does it really matter probably

not

i think we can we just need

to take the control

the communities and joined together with like

minds in the just use the teach

orange he should make it happen then

just leave the the legacy system in

dust wrestling

and the i dunno the of them

are sort of kind of method for

the people that are building new tools

or or that term working for dessert

in the web three space

on your solutions as an awesome

no i mean stephens of my head

but you just think a main road

say really is that

like even things up for question you

know the structures the other being brought

up in the bounds of the education

that will have been given and ideas

about our history and our potential is

a desert human species other then we

really have been able to touch on

it very much so i think

a huge missing piece in this in

the coordination in the in the and

freedom of expression and freedom of transaction

nature of rop chain is a huge

step forward ends i just the couch

people with just to think about it

the core fundamentals of it and what

it really means and how you can

perhaps slowly think about may be applying

it to your business

so he alive for just even a

don't exist even do it on blockchain-powered

that idea that things that can be

transparent and we can build consensus and

i could distribute ownership and distribute the

network across notes of is no central

intermediary of failure point and things can

be done peer to peer

it ask yourself what why would they

be anything in the would that could

be allowed to chump that amusing that

were trump is robert trump that idea

mean you you show me a claim

in the universe as he is i

can't do a transaction with a medium

minds with alex financial value-based or otherwise

show me something that

trump's that claim is nothing in the

world of law or spiritual made us

for me that trump's that claim on

frida transact as long as a dinner

hamas consensual was anyone in the world

and as though governmental or any and

to marry they can get in the

way of the and dumb if i

think they can i say prove it

because you can't you know and and

technology caught in a lawyer and spirit

you can't do that

be going to make the claim yeah

you gotta stephen to their shoes and

lit it resonated make the client you

know and law for me of it

has making that claim obvious and steady

expressing it and then the world of

commerce and and law and the numb

boating and the visiting a feature that

we we can just freely do what

we need to do to to transact

can beat of the world and live

happy lives and through what we want

to do you though this new wealth

is my mr

thank you both and give her for

reaching out initially and all the cool

stuff you're doing and colonel it's really

it's firing i mean he has rattled

off a few projects like a each

one is so degas his life hurrying

you and you find the to have

to to the south carolina a long

year through and started thank you very

kia rethinking look

oprah longer here what's your message the

the of anything else to say otherwise

the close the recording number of done

could not come to auckland new zealand

category in the bush and the native

bush beautiful of given later on and

the dark and got my kids are

asleep says that's good

since our nose of please thank you