welcome on another episode of democracy innovators
podcast and our guests of today's gareth
barry
them at i mean we met a
nah can a community and i saw
your project that was really interesting and
do
i i dunno like as a first
question i would like to ask you
like something about your project and maybe
then we we we see something about
your background and the sure
and
well my project at day she ties
into my vagrants are just different into
that for a little bit i i
change as a lawyer lot twenty years
ago or bit more maybe and and
called admitted to the bar as a
barrister and solicitor and calling from auckland
new zealand and and
thin and the proceeding twenties of clever
always remain interested in that just from
a social justice point of view and
have worked a lot in such a
impact in an arts and music and
always set of with a social conscience
of being joined the music and art
expressions like that so lure naturally works
to that as well and i go
in the last twenty years or so
of really kind of reverse engineered the
what i got taught at law go
with the legal system the legal system
which is just one aspect of law
actually when you look broader there's much
bigger
modalities and jurisdictions and legacies histories of
lower sir i became interested in there
and february i i sort of apply
the law now at i didn't practice
and i don't act i just as
and in a man standing on the
land applying the law which is different
to a person who
who are your ex saw appears personally
in the legal system so the different
the different statuses a different jurisdiction and
kind of fascinated by what makes up
those claims in their statuses and lower
and different you're using different jurisdictions how
people in the know you know sort
of have private foundation the private trust
and things and actually upright in different
forms of law so that and she
said may and then the convergence of
that with block chain in with three
technologies and i saw as a natural
fit i used to run and run
label music label and have allison
we put up music physical copies cds
and vinyl around the world different your
six not a huge not not all
the way around the web be different
places europe north america japan a teacher
and and we found this once this
the shift to piracy in the digital
came at me and we'd no longer
hit a business model so
when i found out about digital scarcity
improve the will ownership in the digital
realm i i thought you know that
i haven't fifteen years ago teen years
ago i would have just made that
we were totally sweet because we could
approved ownership and it would have come
at a time when the digital models
hadn't developed so much so now streaming
is entrenched but really if you were
a bank was near a good model
to develop that was just the default
and logic of numbers in a nation
economic factors mean that everybody developed of
but really you could ahead in if
t ownership and provable anish of drake
to the arrest kind of like a
bandcamp model but
on the watch in are so there
are so the convergence of all that
stuff and also was identity same thing
he knew he had these passports and
and are
well have to carry them round neck
our identities as defined for us by
governments and other verify an issue as
a teacher and there make making seeds
of you talking about establishing cellphone and
lawful status because you needed to find
your identity to find how you interact
and what status you do so economically
privately socially whatever you know so on
these different statuses to
to employ so it was really converges
all those things and in you know
working on a project will be calling
it sold at the moment which is
the sovereign or it could be self
actualized identity layer to assist the blockchain
toilet talks about the status of the
holder and provides toasted to in law
and also just the and you know
natural on opening a spaces
for and self actualized identity so people
to determine their own ritualistic way to
to improve the first identity in the
then you have different aspects of law
that you could dependent out of and
use different statuses but you do you
do with paperwork and international law and
and you know you gotta make claims
is the thing
that would understand with identity you have
to make claims because these claims out
the other being put in your name
the best difficult and things that that
and the not generated by you you
don't control them and it's the cause
of a lot of economic troubles for
people because operating as a person the
legal system and the subject to rules
and regulations of global rubbery she huge
if you change of status you
not submit any other you you you
go why jurisdiction so yeah my background
in my am i am project the
really convergence of all that stuff so
identity lore and you know just the
whole the whole blockchain aspect of true
ownership and peer to peer and freedom
technology is is kind of were fascinated
by me i'm probably like you know
we we met and colonel when you
we talked i sorry you had a
lot of ideas and as i was
guys really know you're near and you're
testing things that sets co because you
get excited about it because the technology
is freedom to congee for applied royal
the moments like a casino right but
vertigo is where is where am i
hate it but you know as long
as you're sorry but you he or
not i mean
i really like what you said about
the reverse engineering the legal system like
a to to understand the what has
been the explain something that the wreath
the legal system but then can be
like a totals in different ways and
the
and also for like a ah
i will say good things because the
i mean my impression like and that
the law ah or also if we
see where it came from like i'm
in the first that universities are they
were about law or theology that were
like something that was very useful to
power
to control like of the land the
and pupil
but to for
i i i s also i was
really impressed by and may be there
are more lawyers that are interested in
blockchain because of these the similarity then
maybe other people are no fillers offer
or
and yet and i dunno about that
i think that must to the lawyers
are interested in in the boy in
the point of view because there's a
lot of way to do you notice
that as interesting novel area as far
as peering regulation with the blockchain and
how things were in that you know
that was christians around said dallas and
who pays responsibility and all this idea
of digital one hundred
of a hero transfers into real life
you know the real world when his
may be his aspects of harm or
promise being made or whatever below exchange
the a teacher says a lot of
work to be done to suit all
that out and that's what in a
mets one jurisdiction i not really i'm
not really an expert in that i
haven't could be but i have to
go to another t is training and
just die go in the a full
want to be able to really comment
within your authority on that so i
don't really work in that area but
there's plenty of work for lawyers i'm
not i'm really more of a lure
researcher or you know i i apply
the law of and abroad a seat
so i i would really i'm going
to do i am a lawyer qualified
lawyer button
i don't go around saying it
i totally understand you like i mean
know what we studied the or like
the the greeted with that we have
a obtain it just the name is
dust the olive the slug anything else
will let me learning about is just
to slither of the real truth you
know was just a little slither that
said special interest
just look at the limits the sciences
you know look at the health nutrition
mention of is know the sciences there's
no non physical aspect to it at
all we know you know that a
lot of the explicit generate the matter
and generate the changes in our will
actually non-physical you know the subtle subtle
forces of the universe can't be seen
as
and the non-physical there in different realm
sorry and saying you know it was
written in the east thousand years ago
in the with starting to understand in
a study to apply it but the
universities will possibly never reply that
yeah and it's very interesting i mean
i thinking the the university are like
a some sort of centralized the organization
and the with can be interesting to
see something the centralized and the academia
is dictated and and yet you can
only speak about certain things and yet
peer to peer reviewed
system is is just entrenched
chinch power dynamics like like all the
institutions everything needs to be decentralized them
in the pair of the masses and
o l thought persist as in our
ability of the come up with novel
ideas and use ai properly wished he
had the him and mess crowdsource in
to me in combination with ai can
run any
system any country you know which needs
to be given the thoughts that to
do it random i think that blockchain
provides a lot of toasted it with
is bigger dallas or whatever it might
be or even the liberal democracy of
the blockchain is to really good that
you know we've reached a point where
we don't need the bloke lot pedicle
political class and we don't need the
institutions that butler knowledge
and it doesn't really go anywhere with
the novel stuff as kept out so
yeah for me
yeah
and about to laker i mean na
your project your experiment with the i
mean the dow connected with ominously like
what are your impressions thoughts what happen
like how did you what we just
dumb for at the stage now of
just finishing away
paper
and then we're going to do
hopefully some sort of a will do
mvp night for some sort of and
semi public launch were using a three
three four different countries in the amnesty
region so ram taiwan thailand australia new
zealand possible one more am i gonna
do a little experiment and crowdsource advocacy
or human rights promotion of through adele
and through the mvp so yet
was that is that you know amnesty
international his i'm working with amnesty have
been doing three years now so am
i really really enjoyed actually i'm in
the reality and million member registered worldwide
database of members you know these people
which he answered the emails and dennison
sonatas members which has seen annie probably
a
i am minority of the extra potential
in our database but anyway so ten
million across seventy different countries and they've
got no coordination mechanism and you know
the point now where mcs of rank
caught historic model you know sort of
grassroots advocacy but really more of 'em
you know and log so to speak
so to move into the digital space
and low
the some of the core principles of
roxanne technology to apply to really enhance
human rights and transparency come in the
governance sure it's crowdsourced ideation and you
know reporting of verified journalism and supporting
grassroots activism straight from blockchain and a
smart contract payments as each other so
it's the sorta
has happened and projects around the world
especially when it comes to paying am
ubi i to say refugees or migrants
or whatever and humanitarian situations for instance
and but hasn't really been done on
the scale that we were thinking of
were resisting it a we're going to
taste premier two or three different chains
be cause the is he a few
quotes satisfied for
the business that for the organization but
you know where we're excited about the
fact that it couldn't it could be
caught of a you know really a
really powerful way to bring human rights
advocacy and instead of mainstream it a
little bit as well you know coordinate
and seen device actions that bring about
and you know anti racism or might
be just as
the aspects of humorous freedom of expression
freedom of movement the sorts of things
we'd such identify what they are and
then we can reward and promote them
and fund them through mechanism luck at
the helena sir
and i look you know a lot
of dell's are looking or ideas looking
for community where a massive community that
desperately needs coordination and you know to
enhance what we do into really delivered
in add value to the to the
ten million people already over a sort
of india you know talking about think
so it's kind of a no brainer
for me it's just a matter of
getting in
you are getting it done but year
yeah i was he like about these
the experimental with the for different countries
like is it more like on and
that your soup projecting like this experiment
desert or like do you already know
like which kind of software can be
used the i dunno
where would we will fund funded from
this first stage of his chain that
we got a partnership was was katana
cause they were dummy there were just
really open and i know that a
lot of such olympic stuff happening the
and through the project catalyst we got
we got funded so i'm partnering with
and rosalyn as and as a as
a friend and colleague paris-based her as
deep in the ecosystem with cut out
one social impact
and you know he runs weep three
impact a sustainable eight or and and
organizations like that so he is my
partner in the project in he said
looking after the ticks i with you
know we talking twice awake and we
have served really hurting in and drilling
down into the taken him you know
that having meetings as a means of
what a with people were gonna meet
in the conference
dubai and a week's time so going
to get your last off by and
so he's looking out of tick side
but things are things of all really
fast and the and i mean in
know a year ago would have been
completely different is you know thanks for
overtake but now of really feel like
em
cross chain interoperability is a cross chain
tokenization the things that have just in
the last little war become a lot
easier ophelia and seems like there's a
lot more functionality amazing things in a
integration in a certain aspects you know
especially when it comes to structure perhaps
of governance structure as will will come
in line sir
them as hard to really know down
the the you have to be the
for a flag on the ground said
we're going to going to do on
the stuff but we're we're pretty close
to 'em to confirm things year and
then it'll it'll just be as that
of certainly no reason is simple
one or two page the ideas to
earn a token and beer and burn
the token so you're going to earn
it were doing advocacy of doing something
or skills enhancement or having a say
or reporting on human rights action in
the community or whatever it might be
we're not sure you are going to
talk to the countries and figure out
what workspace for the supporters and then
you can burn it by voting on
a proposal or something else from not
sure what else sense of some sort
of oliver
lord system serum this that's kind of
what we're going to what we're going
to i am to do province of
timber
okay i'm very interesting knowing which software
and though which solution or and i've
i'm i'm curious because that and as
you said and i was all looking
also on your website i mean you
participate in the many and social impact
project lender was wondering when you
had this connection we the blockchain work
that you thought okay we have to
make a bow and the it can
warrior just briefly touched on the early
of rosacea because i was in music
and and friend of mine couple of
friends one here best he have one
based in the k over peter three
or four days maybe the
twenty twenty it was just when covered
with the whole covered blend in it
was starting and am i always like
you know what are we gonna do
in a and i lost a lot
of work because i i i didn't
get vaccinated of not interested in that
you know i mean people can do
what they want but for me i
might notice that this not want to
do so i lost a la contract
work and i was kind of like
pivoting i was just the right time
and needed somebody to get into and
what we know the penny dropped when
i found you know when i found
out about the idea with music you
could cause at the tanya was a
young artists in south oakland young polynesian
as his only seventeen years old out
and jason derulo who is a like
a num one him you know miracle
pop star took a tour
tiktok little link of him and put
on a song and and winter the
song me to number one that and
then there was this kind of like
that in a semi battle saying well
with it's my song and then he
was up against the of russian hanging
up getting i think a sheer the
meeting points on the record or whatever
cheer the music publishing i think i'm
pretty sure it was sorted out but
i just sort of thought of it
is the same time that was like
whoa that head of in on the
blockchain that future antonio i believe will
be like you put your song on
you put on an address on the
rochon it's a fist on is published
in the in anything that that the
an intelligent algorithms of the internet
someone tries to use their music even
if they do use it the blockchain
will pay you directly your sheer anyway
it'll be like a secondary sell situation
so you'll get you'll get your she
no matter what and in that we
know of the use of that particular
unique creation or music or whatever it
is on the allowed on the anthony
on the new ones in it that's
what i can believe and hope wherever
so evenings proven
the item and if you want to
use it you to sit the credit
copyright sheer system in place and then
it's all done through smart contracts anyone
can use it but they got to
give a tiny residual sheet of the
owner to everyone just getting ripped off
and even a i should be doing
the same thing with think because it's
drawing data points or me everywhere so
it's got the record so what can
i pay provable she is to everybody
even
if it's just the and thousandth of
a saint if it's of is referring
to my page i should be getting
a little kickback from there that would
be the challenge it in a respectful
system i think anything blockchain in the
future of can do that but not
the moment but you know so when
i thought about that for music was
like okay i need to get into
this because i was always into freedom
and freedom technology and
and you know cross-cultural work and in
different of in a different forms governance
and consensus and you know spiritual aspects
and all these sorts of things but
the the money in the technology was
like well they've got us the got
her or lockdown what are going to
do you know her back to trading
goal was like
but when i found out about this
if of money and for you know
for digital scarcity and trading on and
you know through the distributed ledger was
like a that as a huge missing
piece so the northern
yeah yeah it's crazy how many things
can be done the nowadays i think
ah i mean na about smart contracts
that is something i mean
i was a quite new and i
mean i now i has been many
years that we are using them for
x for experiments but still i think
that the the are something not the
we haven't discovered all the possibilities yet
the also because i
as you were saying like last year
it was very different in terms of
we didn't have a eyes so powerful
and also he allows them to program
and the and have like a busy
interoperability software between different chains and the
i associate or all the system that
is growing and and i i wanted
to ask something about you like your
press on the ground may be like
i'm also starting from when you were
a child like where you leave the
a later
this why and
i am but a grow up in
and in a little university town called
deleted and in new zealand of the
south island new zealand and and my
background is by debt my dad has
lebanese and my mum is scosche from
the that from orkney islands scottish to
the very kind of like if you
look at the whitney of a new
zealand of matter the world
new zealand and deleted down the bottom
right corner the names like the south
and the obvious like at the top
left in the top of the uk
of the very top of the royal
the top of scotland is a little
on and like fifty km or whatever
it is hundred two hundred k away
called orkney islands it's a moment my
mum's from the area and before that
sort of
mix of from
norwegian and english as well in the
in the neck so
that's my kind of background i mean
i i b m a carpenter aden
named and can revoke and music and
hospitality and things that they did a
law degree in anthropology degree and then
moved to the big smoke orphaned and
in instead of week to music and
culture up here for for a lot
and in the arming should work for
the british arts council ring the arts
program in use
seven years and so did a lot
of cool stuff and between the you
can use ellen and the arts and
it's yet he's a great times during
that period in also in asia with
to london asia because we are in
the regional in the regional east asia
team so those surveyed country so with
the law and met some really great
great context and friends so have today
in that region serum yeah
i've always worked in the cross between
arts and culture i mean arts culture
and in nanotechnology more and more lately
but and social impacts this is my
favorite my favorite ours really stuff that
sees something whether it's visual music my
favorite artist the ones who rock the
boat and a political and spiritual and
say something different you know it so
because i've always be
drawn to that kind of work to
so you're suddenly also anthropology that the
zoo
but interesting also the the bathroom doing
now is the i would say alpha
is three and of anthropology
do something about global hell to a
nine anthropology class of later interesting
that were so you focus won't and
particular and like health modalities from from
the past or different ropes regions are
you looking at
i mean that one was a class-a
by a professor that he is quite
famous evil quaranta is a medical anthropologist
the and reelect nicholas them
it was very very interesting about the
and yet global health the
from an anthropological perspective in them
the last the fifty years i will
say
or the self to know as demonstrated
slightly the just too much together
i'm not gonna james biological health a
to yeah
there's an year but was very interesting
because it was the in a way
also problem advising the way we do
i
we our relationship with health and the
and i think it was a quite
and put it is quite important to
do it also refer relation ship with
science and and song and and
yeah it's a the myself because it's
like you know so i think that
of us have any now's people understand
that you've gotta come back to your
self you know you as you gotta
you gotta take control because it was
fucking crazy and the people that are
supposed to be rolling the would obviously
psychopaths or it at released in ourselves
let you got to
in know just sort of say enough
is enough for for me anyway the
people have to do that either and
but for the i i can see
you know enough is enough but if
you use against the and look after
myself on my own health and my
own mind and just play information there
and just
no responsibly forge own path because i
don't trust the government tyranny of those
institutions they're all they're all corrupt by
by nature now know by designers a
slight just cause of been around so
long and is so convoluted and so
many special interest knocking his against each
other that the just they have to
be corrupted
yeah are you mean the way that
the i'm thinking about hierarchical system and
how the worker and though i mean
if you are on top voids because
the you some one voted you and
saw you make to make you happy
also it's it's quite the saw yet
they are
have to be corrado wire to work
or
but i mean i think that decentralization
and distributed knowledge skipped though is going
to be it so
yeah absolutely
oh so now they're talking about the
collective intelligence and the i i mean
if in the future probably hierarchical system
where
maybe not all the only weight but
the easiest is their way
to have like a lot of people
that could leave together i dunno this
is what happened historically and
but this in our technology as something
that could helping the the centralized power
and the
and unlike the this thou i mean
i see that their primary goal of
this project include a desire to improve
participant coordination for the tamil a member
of amnesty support base
and these are quite ambitious project that
the i mean it will be awesome
to see something similar and and and
and also question and related to how
did you start like your discovered web
tree i mean the blocked in word
then you add the some thoughts but
then how did you do
like did you contact amnesty you were
the gerade they have a contract going
for and partnerships and think ahead of
a little innovation in the and in
the rosso i just went and talked
to and at that point i asked
you know just sort of citizen i
think there's something really powerful happening in
blockchain and i think that and
with such a broad offer as kind
of their organization around the world that
historically any now nowadays as well and
tins of research and advocacy and
pushing protecting people advocating for people were
prisoners of conscience etc teacher
the emphasis is kind of always the
ship you know so it's a very
broad offer him the rise of slope
yeah surely we could find a way
that we can incentivize in reward people
or a or do something around human
rights protection cause analysis he did am
had said education to to because if
you know the example use of fight
in the room one hundred people see
who could it be hand if you
support him rights like ninety nine percent
put put up the hand right but
of and see to the mortality where
human rights tell me about them described
to me or or or you know
explain what they actually are then you'd
have the opposite lennon here at night
didn't they will put wouldn't raise the
hand because no one really understands what
does have a
applies to your life and how to
use it in for the historical crucial
moments that lead to each human rights
whether it's know apartheid falling of the
disney into the death penalty in big
lots of various countries amos's advocated to
cc four and numbers of countries near
twenty something i think so
they sought the things and people who
are doing these actions they should be
recorded on blockchain him people should be
at a carry round that reputation is
something withers and mc delaware river but
they should this this of the things
of with value in different forms of
value if you can save this attempt
value in the attention economy
or the movement economy surely this value
in the human rights call me that
we can if i knew you'd been
to go that signed the end of
the death penalty and in malaysia you
know but a different perspective on things
you know view of the holder they
ain't so bad enough tastes like well
they can stores so why why are
we not recognizing the things we got
sports stars and celebrities and
never read a lot about human rights
you know so combination all that stuff
i just thought it's gotta be something
here we should look into it
and then it's a started from the
and you know that there are a
lot of work and you know editor
laura explain to people to understand what
it really was about but the technology
it's about what it can achieve rather
than immediate need to know tcp ip
protocols on the internet to use email
to use the we didn't need to
know that stuff's the blockchain at the
moment we do
anita bits and pieces and i was
his huge ecosystems voting systems and modulus
and making them all work together but
we as the consumer where the user
or the individual owning the identity we
don't really need to know about that
stuff we just need a knitted have
a good you extra make sure that
it works in the unstained the upside
of the aca with a if i
own the stuff and i can
do something good and it's recorded that
lead to some sort of value in
the future the numb
oregon support my friend of my neighbor
who's doing something really amazing that can
get support i can like and use
amnesty told to crowdsource ideation or support
or and fundraise for the immodest point
support journalists to are doing verified reports
and can't get any any coverage but
the doing the verified reports from the
ground you so
all these different use cases of i
have evolved as with developed the process
and in the and the project itself
in the research but i just the
thing it's kind of a no brainer
so it was just series of discussions
really a think
presentations in a yeah
i was thinking about them
sort of philosophical question real in relationship
with flow and the
the the i mean and smart contracts
so like he now in our own
western liberal democracies we we have the
division of power that is executive legislative
and the traditional
i dunno power and the but sometimes
i thought like with smart contracts you've
right the law and then the law
is also excellent executed at the same
time
i remained the thing is concede the
code code is lower
it has executed in the in the
on the block blockchain the have it
relates to sundays they have his implications
in real life that we don't really
foresee so is obviously the you know
that said it's a very interesting area
of research and questioning and real real
real world application it's coming you know
so we can find out these issues
and if to have to sort them
out there were you thinking
yeah i mean i i was pinky
and as you say like in the
future we will see i i mean
in the future we will see new
technologies but also i see that
i then i think about the something
that can be also sauce in a
way the this topic this topic laker
i dunno electronic locks and for homes
so i had or not are you
the lend me some someone a year
and there we've writing the smart contract
that every month i had to give
you back a that amount of money
and they fade dont i dunno my
electronic lock doesn't open any more with
my key but he thought albany while
the list of coming it's more like
you can't won't be able to get
on the airplane and you won't be
at a
you carry out of the city and
you might get a refund feel that
you might be a lot of stuff
like he has the chinese social credit
thing apparently the inner he was in
a second hannah and how much over
here in it so situation happen some
he this of stay this why of
insane saying for me this is one
lone voice in chose plenty others but
i keep saying which we need we
need a own hardly aina and one
neighbor because if they can take the
an entity in stop i in the
any blockchain apple whatever angel you know
then what what are we gonna do
then
we thought that through what are we
going to do so we we need
to be aware that stuff's coming down
the pipeline is it that's definitely the
the logical an issue of what's happening
as as as getting to that point
in oh so and yeah we need
to do something about of sure
yeah absolutely and also sometimes i dunno
like and
there is designed the about social credit
score relationship with them
the technology and also this kind of
gimme vacation system that rewards people left
a participate in something
and if and they believed that if
it can be was in away some
very nice topic if it's made in
a centralized way so i don't i
imagined like a king a president that
gives like in a hierarchical wait
but this is also what happened with
capitalism so i will say that we
already live in such a credit score
system
exactly quitter yet as now called it
the same same thing more everything about
what
the the living is a free man
or woman actually is if we design
means that all the systems that we
design our for the benefit of the
natural environment for people's health for exploring
consciousness for elevating the human spirit to
all these things that we could put
all the resources towards their then
that will bear the humidity being free
my opinion but with almost got the
opposite you know everything's
and health next a second
where it makes you poor and all
the sensor
yeah because the may be corporation that
is this things we are working on
knifing because at the end the every
project that wants to have such an
impact it means that people up to
cooperate together and or i think this
is the most difficult thing in the
story people instead of cooperating the start
killing each other
or thirteen before the killing each other
they compete with each other and then
at the certain point the start killing
each other and as a little about
resources and money i mean other than
i mean of have often thought would
be the will be like we just
took away money and we just pretended
yes of a winning by macrophages pertain
to hand over the money and then
they pretend to play the supplier i
mean some
laser things wouldn't be there difficult will
just have to learn to cooperate and
the people that didn't cooperate with just
idiots or maybe money was free and
we have this abundance like muslims the
enormous seems to think we have abundance
favorite bodies slept that we live in
a finite resource planets of with a
guy who wants one hundred tv's or
hundred cause he wasn't going to corporate
with union so i think
the resume mature
the solutions to these systems kind of
converged you know i think that will
get to the point where people have
to step up and be mature and
responsible when coast steward you know environments
in relationships and communities in the numb
and started hidden on a massive scale
nothing the majority of the was during
the spot says that reflected in the
mainstream system
on on the mainstream narrative sir
i have great hopes of humanity but
we didn't need to get this big
rock the way of first the centralize
rock of filth you know we need
to get it out of the way
in it
the void that development parallel system yeah
yeah i'm very negative in short term
and very positive in long-term morgana same
the crazy
by the oberoi doesn't make any sense
though so you know you gotta think
was got a sort itself out sooner
or later about him in who knows
how long the i will have you
know into the exists go when we
were taught war and like history was
called you know history that it was
war but site does being was my
whole life saw history it's just a
skinning was a worse so
you know we were taught that of
have something to heaven in the past
the world wars which are a european
was i went will was a european
wars but you know this sort of
war endless war idea is and then
it never went away
yeah yeah well i was thinking before
that the it's a sort of cultural
problem i mean we are used to
compete with each other i mean the
way we are educated like also starting
from school i mean now we are
educated to just think about the our
grades and not about the
also the situation in the glass and
i think there are some hm
i mean and awaits that are related
but there are some
ah kind of experiment what was the
related to technology i think about the
forty to school or where they evaluate
people not just the on their and
on what they did the but about
all the team and and the think
that these the help people understanding that
is not just about us but we
are altogether as in term of resources
and the
tournament yet this year
the lots of books about tail organizations
and
hala chrissy and thinks that the nice
at ideas of horizontal ownership and shared
resources a teacher so i think that
'em yet i i do feel it's
or happening i think it's a it's
happening in the right way that just
as gonna be really take a long
time and be
unevenly distributed you know that the a
features or inhibit is not not evenly
distributed yet just the culture you know
the focus of people doing amazing stuff
for sure
and when you talk about time how
much when the think it it's going
to happen at nights it's it will
be just speculation because we don't know
what have what what what is going
to heaven
nah like and i i mean now
we are tokyo's also about the and
the possibility to have some a decentralized
organization of for amnesty but also maybe
before other and
entities so i am thinking about these
are possible decentralized ward where everyone has
and the through the that the
collaboration is better than competition and the
i dunno if we will see this
word but the in a way i
think that the that any one is
necessary and i think that's probably honoring
the authority of those of the future
that we want to say there's gotta
be that those people who just there's
lots of people you get who get
the kicks out of capitalism the dirt
the well when they quite heavy not
to hear about other people in has
lots of people do the who get
the kicks out of capitalism do really
well and do amazing things for people
you know arena in some ways i
think pretty probably the majority you know
most people i think already got so
other thing that's going to be like
a complete split the these are just
different tools we can use but we
need to my opinion minute yet to
a secular
humor communities and families and and cultures
and groups of people have ownership of
their resources and decision making power about
about money creation of many use and
in responsible stewardship of the resources each
or so and that will happen and
chameleon and and degrees in different places
i don't think there's going to be
a date and it's already happening in
some places and so time was
as
kind of you know i mean it's
also about when you decide that you're
ready to do it a new and
body and the in the time has
now kind of thing and so you
know a up nothing is happening
and that the so maybe the time
is now like to start now all
we know old time is now that
than other point obviously everything's is already
happened and we are living in a
eternal present moment so you know when
you think about everything's going to be
a ride in the in the visions
that we can foresee of the future
already here and happening in this there
are thing cause there are though
thoughts and they have form and content
and and energy so they are already
building right now you know the features
already here we just visited the future
and the present moment and as already
being built by consensus so and in
a time wise
a museum may i let the aisle
at the 'em as the thing of
the buddhist cohen or something about the
you're saying that you know the butter
came across to
to believer's and in nfl it is
fatal in the first once you get
a master when am i going to
be enlightened any and he was like
on you know maybe in a two
or three light last times you're doing
great two or three less as is
like an hour that long that long
and ran away sobbing the elements he
was master must have minimal that'd be
a lightness of the for we took
two or three three four last time
that he went all i got
isn't so close in infamy was enlightened
on the spot in i saw
you know i think what is diamond
what is what are these things he
really means no rush i just want
in of the woods bit it for
my kids and we we went we
went to school and we got taught
things in and was almost of was
was just a a a slither of
truth you know the true through a
lanes of materialism and empiricism and eurocentrism
and over intellectualism
she right the our for my children
to understand the world's coaches and spiritual
traditions to understand different forms of mathematics
and who medics and these sorts of
things to the real knowledge of the
east understand the in to be up
to used a our toes to earn
digital passive income and to do it
responsibly and and deemed the donate schooling
one of the i mean that they're
at school the moment but i'm also
saying to them a this is just
one thing we can learn these things
and in our teacher some other things
as well when they're not going to
go through fifteen years of schooling though
only you know we'll be doing other
things to
sosa to explore the plurality of knowledge
turn different cultures semi many things in
there was a whole thing around the
covert thing was like we had that
the western w a you know injection
model and that was a and slight
well even in this country this two
hundred coaches living units one of the
your considered one of them as per
capita and
diverse cities in the will you know
the top five and said we had
begun to hundred coach stephen none of
them are allowed to say in know
five thousand year old chinese coaches not
to tell us anything about healing for
for a violent suppose that viral infection
so that all that stuff was like
could i a past that minutes just
benefits one central control system at the
expense of everybody
else materially health wise spiritually mindspace wise
you know the mental damage said we're
gonna get past that stuff
yeah i totally agree about the a
exploring different cultures because sometime we just
think that our is that the best
one but that's because that we have
ridden books that our culture is the
best one i mean is is then
also lead to to colonization and i
policeman other
kind of things and then before you
mentioned the word consensus that is are
a very interesting word
and though i do not do you
have any thought about it
time
the a a different different different on
different ways of of being in different
cultural ceilings different times obviously i mean
consensus eleven new zealand this is a
by cultural we even indigenous modi people
will tongue of the fino of the
people of the land so consensus-building and
the communities on the mri which is
the meeting meeting houses for the and
in a communal disk
russians comedian community decision making and and
celebrations as a teacher you know so
the consensus-building takes days in it's very
well measured in it brings and spiritual
aspects and in all sorts of things
and then on the other side of
the wisdom in the the packer saw
it with a white side and the
museum consensus is very quirkiness could have
been done in your nine fifteen means
nine fifteen in it's very linear and
this though concepts of what michael pacific
time are many in the pacific coaches
new zealand say time you know what
time of are going to make you
a little the flight will mate when
the time is right and if i'm
missed the spoke of mr that trying
to midst of not supposed to be
there that time sir he got to
show patience so consensus-building is very difficult
i think and and burning it in
a digital space it as that enough
you can hard-coded
and to i dunno if you could
have had all of it and to
smart contract designer or protocol designer think
that the needs to be some sort
of fluid reach to in do you
know like it was like geospatial fluid
fluid as he needs to be like
a cultural fluidity so he can if
collective consensus-building not just individual with
then seen checks very individualistic this consensus-building
the i decide this and a decide
their we decide one rotation
then you've got the other forms of
consensus building that are older and then
new a reflections of that which unlike
like quadratic you know conviction voting for
these sorts of things on block chain
which sort of trying to honor the
fit that we're all different we all
have shifting ideas about consensus and making
decisions so it's a it's a tricky
topic a and induction and and
you take the sure
absolutely and if in colorado for i
have a lot of thoughts of a
in relation to consensus the something that
the
yeah
because a yeah i mean i think
to earth
consensus i mean they should do not
have consensus in a way you have
violence in sight of their group because
it could be there
i mean dictatorship of the majority and
them and also i think you out
that consensus can be reached laker
yeah
but i and i i associate concepts
of with power lay power in a
sense that the in the oriental power
like i dunno like today we had
we had the consensus about having this
chuck
and we are indifferent spaces
i
but they will say also in the
same time i mean that
different time zones
but maybe it could be like a
specifically about this kind of topic same
time of our lives
ah that's why we have this consensus
may be five years ago you didn't
have these the passion or maybe i
didn't have these the had totally
when the a consensus of the meeting
of minds and things
it's a i mean a powerful moments
you know in life and then now
new digital connection lie for me through
kernel of had some good connections with
people and good discussions and you know
concede to the bad idea that even
kind of comes i think to will
be met in that program can't even
sort of comes to it with like
a m unwritten concede says
about what we a hit you know
he to do no one's doing exploitative
or extractive kind of models that i
just want to read poetry by the
of trying to pump coins or anything
like that no one's doing it to
the steps of have already got a
consensus about what we understand people kind
of about you know in the is
that funny at the details but i'll
love to learn more about in one
of the
prejudice on your minor around can see
just gonna you you to through through
a few things that you are working
on the what's the what's the conceived
his modeling tool that you will kind
of doing
as the one
a water was work jana you renew
here
ah i dunno if it was a
consensus the
if it was to reach consensus may
be it was awesome civic participation a
platform that i have written the white
paper and have also developed a small
prototype and the but eventually can show
it the
coffee than the others in will then
i think that i'm also for there
was going to make before is that
consensus i liked the idea of rough
consensus like the idea that will never
going reach a pivot consensus when as
not going to be unanimous is always
going to be different viewpoints but as
long as we reach a point we're
and the legitimate sir
state your concerns of everybody are answered
even if i say okay come a
hippie to pocket now and the next
version where to revisit it but thank
you thank you for us unpicking what
my concern is about we were heated
as long as we can do their
need to give everybody an open floor
the me to learn to be a
rough consensus and move forward for the
benefit of the alignment
of the whole project or the mission
or attack as human rights in other
words we're going to get lost in
the awaits if we try and argue
every aspect of human rights so i
liked the idea of rough consensus i
think it's a tiffany a kind of
workable option is to respect all parties
input though you and said someone's got
a real grievance he can't step over
there even if as any one
person at one hundred you know you
have to it she deal with it
otherwise your break the rules of the
respect of the consensus building
yeah i think he also maybe about
their and
like if i'm part of a group
of of our community and i disagree
of course i can now also accept
the fact that the other people thinking
a certain way so asset that decision
otherwise i can also decide like to
go away but that sounds some time
it is hard that because may be
it's not
so easy to find another group but
the if that the process is made
easier by technology so i dunno i
don't want the the blue collar but
the prefer the yellow one i can
find another community in easily way that
the want to use their yeah
hello color and then i am
but of course community also have to
been some sort of the they have
to be connected the and i thinking
about all designed for interconnected the war
the
yeah
where everyone in know ways free to
explore liked to not been a community
where he doesn't feel good about it
is and the same time you can
form or another one or he can
join another one and then eventually that
can be mediation some sort of immediate
mediators between different positions
it's not really clear to me
now and and i think also for
most of the people is something new
but relieved
i was at some his aspect that
we need to to the impact it
about the actual day-to-day actions they were
talking about as a lot of us
very small things that revolver and recently
insignificant amounts of money that i just
painful when annoying and and if we
can remove a lot of that stuff
between personal interactions and interactions were between
us and institutions such as
or or an automated through a always
you get a lot of stuff done
there may be here but more space
to
in an elevator sell thinking hiring in
and try and reach consensus by leading
some of that stuff go and concentrating
on one and things that are going
to be more beneficial be if consensus
about i mean love stuff that happens
with consensus-building and governance and things zum
just kind of nipper picky and people
sort of
sticky onto their ideas and thinking the
a vision of this the way that
things should be governed
is the best one end somehow gonna
you know be like a it a
face it they can construct in the
future and it's going to how's everybody
and i just don't have this can
be the case i think things that
don't have to be really fluid and
people going to have to let things
go and go to use technology to
get rid of some of the crap
in our lives you know some of
the things we we end up having
to do bureaucratically
the or whatever it doesn't it's not
good for us to be constantly
the calibrating mirrors the hypocrisy
the grow a lot of things that
doesn't really have a sense in our
society i mean the we drew them
because we think her
we live in our society we do
not with of things we just do
them better healthier
eva it's bad for your health as
well do not even if we know
things are wrong and we don't question
the more trying to the incremental little
thing to change or whatever then it's
going to kill you in the in
this my bit of here
it's my personal experience in her or
the got a deal with it hate
on and realized that the even our
range of what we think as living
how healthy and happy life a thing
as to severely restricted and bounded within
you know within
ill with and limits that there is
an of the true potential i mean
i think we can be living and
to galactic lives of the blessing co-creation
and it's you know and at the
moment we're not really getting too close
to that so
your you mean like the attitude of
from thinking that having a long life
is better than having a
having your own life or maybe having
a lot of luxury things and living
living like having unlimited material wealth
some they would say he make them
happier i mean it would make me
happy to have unlimited material wealth but
in the challenges how to use and
and had an and sure that you
don't get lost in materialism because at
the new davis not going to be
for your evidence of you know these
ideas about happiness and what we really
want for the word individually extent thing
we have a perception of what we're
capable of you as
humans and the we are iron our
evolution of devolution or whatever it is
whatever path we're on on the cycle
so yeah i'm not restricted in my
thinking in that respect
yeah some some years ago i was
questioning about their the meaning of life
and i wasn't able to give our
a reply to myself so i am
i thought okay i love i think
about the excluding song song things so
i was being like a is it
a good car
our like a beautiful car the meaning
of my life as i was not
is it a good the beautiful home
not as i was doing go all
the sphinx to discover what was there
the meaning of life and clear don't
have a i dunno what what is
your life is just keep asking that
question i keep wondering i mean i
don't think anyone can see that the
thing yeah me a life as to
give life to life he notes that
the lot to be life to bayonet
the be alive
then you're halfway there in my opinion
that that it's many things we we
can even o'gara rather than
when it this year
so it's it's always a question or
never a reply never announcer of the
visit
the things i think mr the beauty
of it know we'd already get an
answer because in this form we're not
capable or appreciate of understanding what that
answer contain hung it just goes on
for ever
yeah an also sometimes this can be
dangerous
ethics yeah the answer the question
here
and the i mean going back to
the to the dow like a how
do you
you made you need like ah
are also like what are some mom
goals that you expect the from is
the
i are also something you're struggling with
i dunno maybe the sophie you're not
a willing to him
i mean really
for me the biggest challenges know implementation
and and just continuing to have people
see the vision and get people on
board
and do the takes day and just
the different elements answer that
the next challenge the think is actually
can finish it takes stick to taste
and leave it malleable enough that somehow
we can predict the future to always
be able to adapt and of over
there is going to be really hot
because once easier for cemented dow a
structure in the ground you can't you
don't really want to change too much
about it
usb copying pasting information or launching on
other chains or hard forking i don't
think by them
so let's yeah that's that's a big
challenge of like expert in that so
i have to take advice and known
as i go along and mean you
are trying them here and so there's
definitely a challenge and as to what
we want to achieve me we just
want to show what is profit possible
i was coordination the nerve of ideas
and people who are who are aligned
around of the purpose of promoting human
rights and how we can somehow
and submit incentivize divisor of and reward
that so people understand this is a
model that can use to benefit societies
communities or hypothetical situations or whatever it
may be it is that she'd look
at what we want to achieve in
supervisor
director source no big institutions no big
funding programs and us aid situations in
all this stuff just decide what we
want to record and we are possible
how it can be recorded and tokenize
on the blockchain in the name reward
or a source that the impact in
a
in them so that the challenges the
things that are my mind reminded what
we want to get achieved in theory
a human rights so you know to
give it a shot
the because up for other kind of
projects like ca
people were saying that the i mean
money or are an issue because maybe
they were not able to find the
money for the development of of some
platform
but we all can make a case
pretty good sarah we've managed to get
funding so far so am i think
combination between thinking through and written really
understanding the use case in what you
know what will got to offer and
in the fitness go to organization or
amnesty that's really willing to have the
conversation and understand upsides and c c
a vision and
you know i just think it's a
bit a no brainer actually so the
of going into
that those apply for a lot of
funding but we've been successful with project
catalyst and at a at this point
so and and i think once you
get sort of people who understand this
is worth doing because also sets a
precedent for ngos and in will white
organizations that they should look at an
aspect of us you know because it
have to translate transit and
transform your whole organization until the dow
or whatever and run everything throw it
just be there will be chaos fishy
further amnesty's is too much the or
so but for supported coordination is for
cause based of theme-based situations or initiatives
are campaigning advocacy and it's it's a
no brainer as a to miss as
far as i'm aware just the took
outside
hello help keep incentive and people valuing
the input and getting what they perceive
out of the out of the project
oh the dow that's the tricky thing
so you know that a require some
adaptability and
in swift being swift and our fate
for sure
yeah
and the and in the dow an
hour i like are the more people
that are working on it like a
how how is going like that i
not am you are saying that you
were writing they're not the white paper
but limb though it may be of
the
but of this made the this to
to of us at the moment her
are doing some them half time on
his point five each and
and rez groundbreaking with and his he's
got a network of people is he's
talking to him we talking you know
to the mall and so which are
networking with a lot and i'm doing
the same with an amnesty stakeholder community
withers had you know mc taken the
uk or my regional colleagues so 'em
with is continuing to talk and traitor
and to this reasonable
involve talking it through time with my
director here in new zealand she's she's
i'm ready onto him and wants to
know more and in understands and compose
tough question the thanks so it's just
about him and conversations with people once
people get it and kit that blockchain
is more than just bitcoin or a
cryptic
currency or whatever else is other use
cases for and they and similar technologies
the afford the in you can have
conversations because the penny drops of them
after a while and they really think
of a can use it for their
the it means i can can use
it for anything mls to my day
the not then the visiting him he's
in his eighties and sit 'em
near this house you could tokenizer than
the future new mechanism not quite the
now at one hundred people go owner
only ever get solved then they get
the hundred cheer automatically is no debating
anything it or i could just you
could one one hundredth cheer other it
will give you be limited rights obviously
to be in here but and you
could have some rights of of you
know every couple of days a year
for the time she or whatever and
the
you can just show you one hundred
cheer and it's very simple redoing the
book changes know in you need articles
to zoom in the price etc or
whatever it my baby as far as
the sheer in the ownership railroad ownership
of assets of things and he just
the page of news like wow so
that means you know the ear that
means of a for everything else you
know so finchley don't need to own
a full house
house or you can't afford it then
for a young people that should be
thinking about the solutions i think
and the
so you're you're merely to people that
power are coordinating derm work you on
the project right and the i was
when the lake is there any
i dunno was a sort of choice
like to just be two people are
like you're also finding other people to
collaborate with because may be at an
awesome one listen to the to this
episode then
we have tried to talk to anybody
who want oozed interested in
as and you know what saw the
help for wants me to help them
a little better or whatever i'm i'm
happy to talk because some iowa's find
this yeah when i started out in
the we have three and blockchain was
it's quite lonely because a lot of
people doing stuff and also suffers from
the cut of i mean american centric
of
model we're even you know your got
influence and so you get more influence
in its kind of like well as
a few other things to say so
i just gravitate to the ones who
want to talk and it can never
interesting discussions and and
enter the in the day that's what
it's about for me i mean oh
i have i've got enough work and
things to do on other as vixen
my own projects and blockchain inches me
so i am i'm putting effort into
her and i'm enjoying talking to people
women
find that with thread is and to
piss tiffany the best ecosystem i've ever
been out of and things people think
fast and they act fast as well
you know and i like that because
then i go back into the lazy
with on
like things take forever to get done
yeah this bizarre
here is that the thing about using
ai to infrastructure and you know understanding
how to use them to correctly respectfully
content wise and things and i look
at people her i work in aina
and other organizations and i come and
twenty with him and i'm trying to
get things are pregnant is think
you got to upskill man you gotta
get with the times things that can
move fast in earnest it's good because
we can keep the momentum going so
many projects and ideas get kilby the
spirit gets killed because the bureaucracy just
crashes and
anguish and the here any longer
yeah people on the internet the the
their found his way
to corporate or something care about open
source and yeah yeah and it's great
also that human conversation and i mean
a as you said that a lot
of people do staffer
do but there may be the most
important things is a to talk especially
also now because i'm thinking i mean
my dream is that people can have
a i dunno this kind of conversation
and then the may be
there are transcript that the end that
they can analyze like and i collect
the way so we can not have
all the different opinion all the different
views and so maybe we can also
coordinate like out we fall lot of
people am
he now reads until way yeah yeah
there was one of your ideas about
the about the minutes tap into other
people's fades a in the thought processes
and having open sourcing your tabs on
your computer kind of faint you're going
workflow and things that there is a
is like a shared and and analyzing
then you get real time feedback from
the emission you know is apple vitalik
you
looking at series a whip we pages
and the you get real time feedback
from algorithm same way she metallic is
looking at these ones which seemed to
be the next step forward and the
evolution of these ideas and it means
you don't wait you're not wasting time
you richly if the able to
in a crowd source and in
disseminated can information it's good for everybody
right so was it with the idea
that you are talking about
i mean i was surfing he like
and
our about the having saved all their
good ideas that people can ever in
some sort of from conversation ah like
i dunno i
in a i mean in traditional system
people water
and while love with the system that
we have now or the term being
developed to i think that people can
just talk about a certain problem either
we can talk about the an issue
social political issue and then old saw
the people do the theme and then
it could be that we dont have
have to vote because we already knows
all our ah different point of views
and so like i i dunno
i can mediate between a
different people or eventually can also say
okay alex and garrett are thinking the
same way so we discuss or may
be other know alex and forty are
not and garrett are not thinking the
same way so we have to discuss
about that and the all discount the
of things that
also called reduce reducer polarization because i
i think like and
ah
personally i have seen a lot of
polarization in the past years but the
for for every kind of do i
dunno a conflict the
i could be your cleaner greener russia
could be gaza israel the could be
the situation about to coffee the i
mean the sometime people are not really
able to discuss understand all the other
person's point of view and them
and
yeah if i'm thinking about the
democracy the future
i will like or saw to see
a place i mean award where people
are
how do you say laker i mean
they want to listen to the other
people like they want to understand their
point of view
yeah i'm sorry it's
it was quite confused further
it's a rare thing is a big
asking yeah skinny it's getting late so
hilarious gave you need another coffee i
probably need to heat of soon to
but yeah i mean audit i think
that are to does is going to
be one solution that fits over is
going to be toes that people used
to be able to connect with others
and she knowledge and fund
what other people thinking much mine are
much more rapid way so they looking
for solutions they can find it and
alex in bologna and has also thinking
about the same consensus-building thing in this
about he's working on eyes is open-source
to what he them with could
and
we can do that by asking a
article was certain things but we don't
really have that live
sort of fade potential am i mean
one a howard work i really thought
about it properly but
the sharing of ideas and boating collected
consensus and thirteen iterating and voting for
it it's kind of like an id
that is almost thumb
it's like an exponential idea really a
exponential idea even know what i mean
the knowledge that you could get out
of they could be exponential when you
get a hold of the human consensus
of minds working together went through really
kicks into gear who knows who he
going
yeah absolutely like and
i think that there is a lot
of richness in having different ideas and
the if we find i mean if
we are ready to accept other people
point of view at and also if
we use some instruments that that passes
in doing that then
we could actually see like a different
kind of future and the kind of
word
but who knows
i think i couldn't agree more things
i think it's already happening and it's
gonna happen whether becomes ubiquitous probably doubt
it but does it really matter probably
not
i think we can we just need
to take the control
the communities and joined together with like
minds in the just use the teach
orange he should make it happen then
just leave the the legacy system in
dust wrestling
and the i dunno the of them
are sort of kind of method for
the people that are building new tools
or or that term working for dessert
in the web three space
on your solutions as an awesome
no i mean stephens of my head
but you just think a main road
say really is that
like even things up for question you
know the structures the other being brought
up in the bounds of the education
that will have been given and ideas
about our history and our potential is
a desert human species other then we
really have been able to touch on
it very much so i think
a huge missing piece in this in
the coordination in the in the and
freedom of expression and freedom of transaction
nature of rop chain is a huge
step forward ends i just the couch
people with just to think about it
the core fundamentals of it and what
it really means and how you can
perhaps slowly think about may be applying
it to your business
so he alive for just even a
don't exist even do it on blockchain-powered
that idea that things that can be
transparent and we can build consensus and
i could distribute ownership and distribute the
network across notes of is no central
intermediary of failure point and things can
be done peer to peer
it ask yourself what why would they
be anything in the would that could
be allowed to chump that amusing that
were trump is robert trump that idea
mean you you show me a claim
in the universe as he is i
can't do a transaction with a medium
minds with alex financial value-based or otherwise
show me something that
trump's that claim is nothing in the
world of law or spiritual made us
for me that trump's that claim on
frida transact as long as a dinner
hamas consensual was anyone in the world
and as though governmental or any and
to marry they can get in the
way of the and dumb if i
think they can i say prove it
because you can't you know and and
technology caught in a lawyer and spirit
you can't do that
be going to make the claim yeah
you gotta stephen to their shoes and
lit it resonated make the client you
know and law for me of it
has making that claim obvious and steady
expressing it and then the world of
commerce and and law and the numb
boating and the visiting a feature that
we we can just freely do what
we need to do to to transact
can beat of the world and live
happy lives and through what we want
to do you though this new wealth
is my mr
thank you both and give her for
reaching out initially and all the cool
stuff you're doing and colonel it's really
it's firing i mean he has rattled
off a few projects like a each
one is so degas his life hurrying
you and you find the to have
to to the south carolina a long
year through and started thank you very
kia rethinking look
oprah longer here what's your message the
the of anything else to say otherwise
the close the recording number of done
could not come to auckland new zealand
category in the bush and the native
bush beautiful of given later on and
the dark and got my kids are
asleep says that's good
since our nose of please thank you