Oliver Klingefjord about the Meaning Alignment Institute and how to bring up wisdom in a collective

wake war on another episode of democracy

or spot gust my name is allison

roper and our guest of today's oliver

klinger shocked them

first being

hello

and as a first question i mean

thank you for your time and as

the first question i would like to

ask you

what does he mean aligning ai

right then any ice aligning ai is

determined used in the industry for determining

are trying to make the add to

have in accordance with what you want

and usually this is defined as aligning

air to human values or or you

are human intent and human values and

so in starts to feel

the trying to make the i behave

in a way that's according that's in

line with what we want

because and how this process of of

discovering human moral value happen

and it's been somewhere you go and

traditionally and i met has been thought

most in terms of operator intent so

you could you would say and as

line if it acts according to how

the operator wanted to act and and

and our comes a bit later because

we think this is insufficient for good

outcomes

do we think that we want the

air to have a bit about deeper

broader understanding about with humans caravan not

just what you tell it to do

partly because you might tell to do

something that's bad

are some maligned actor in my tell

it to do something that's that's that's

bad or anti social but even in

a kind of a world where you

have a good intention it might be

problematic to have as at one the

act in accordance with you how he

instructed to and example of that might

be in political campaigns where you tell

your ai to be

as convincing and process as possible

that might lead to all kinds of

the cynic breakdowns as the with ideally

have an ai very that understands a

bit more what's what's what's good and

was worthwhile

and so our work at the beating

alive and steered and

it's about trying to understand and what

humans care about the richer deeper level

and and we're building prototypes and methods

for eliciting that and training models on

this kind of richer understanding about to

you must care about

so there is the meaning alignment that

is a an organization the a company

the does these

yeah that's right sorry i should have

told the of the start i'm the

co-founder of the meaning of island institute

we are a nonprofit and we were

founded in two thousand and twenty three

in a when open the i gave

us a grand for creating a new

sort of democratic input mechanism for how

a assistance should behave

and what was like the the road

my pool or like all the process

how did it work like did you

have to pick some dapa then how

did

do you mean the process of finding

the org or that process that i

talked about briefly that we had developed

together with him

i o say all of

were so let me just first give

a shirt rundown down the history of

the earth and

michael and joe

used to work on recommender systems and

and realized that there is this kind

of thing back in two thousand and

thirteen we're optimizing for engagement leads all

kinds of bad outcomes that people get

addicted to their phones and they have

less friends

and and is he founded of and

org around that and trying to figure

out what should we optimize instead if

not engagement

and this is a very rich deep

question if you take it seriously what

she did and that thinks attract the

heart of philosophy of values and such

choice and these other sort of social

fields and and fast forward a few

years and the liberation comments and and

i and hand out a person to

get a fondest org or father this

or called the meeting a heightened institute

to apply some of these insights that

again working on this to the worth

of elegance and and we critical position

to open the i who were interested

in doing some kind of democratic process

for their air systems

where they themselves don't necessarily want to

be dictators and decide exactly how if

the should behave ideally they want had

some kind of democratic process for it

as so they gave ten different teams

a grant to build such a process

and and for process is quite unique

in that it understood

dance human values and very sort of

granular terms were human bodies of can

i found talked about

very loosely and industry were there is

no clear distinguish the distinction between what

is it preference what is an ideological

commitment that you want to convince other

so what is a slogan that think

is good what's a rule that you

want others to follow and like was

a way of life it's actually meaningful

to you and the latter is what

we would call

all about you so our process is

trying to disentangle what people say what

a what the advocate for with what

is actually important to them

and of from a technical perspective like

how does this been work

so there are basically two parts to

it

the first part is a shack dialogue

so the user logs into a page

and is as something like how should

chatty pitied talk to a christian girl

considering an abortion

which was one of the prawns set

up any i gave us and and

so the user my say oh i

think shetty with the should be brochures

you're pro-life or whatever but the behind

all of the slogans there's some way

of life that is actually important to

them to this shaft bought that they

talked to a pendant trust drill down

into how would they actually acting real

choices like what the they pay attention

to reach i

isis and you will get to something

that's quite different and is formatted in

a very different way something we thought

a values cart which specify

what you pay attention to in choices

such that it's interesting and meaningful to

pay attention to those things says a

way of life is intrinsically meaningful to

you which is very different from a

slogan or a rule or for our

preference stats the first part getting to

the as that of underlying values and

then the second part in the process

is

determining which values are wiser than others

so what we do is that would

take these values cards these this this

short textural descriptions about what people pay

attention to choices and regenerate stories about

someone moving from one to another

and and then we ask the bull

do you think this person became wiser

by doing this they use her approach

the situation where

a my way and then after after

thinking more about it they now do

it in this way

do anything majority of people agrees that

we withdraw that as an arrow in

what becomes our quote unquote moral graph

and so that is the author to

the person is a graph objects were

the nodes are these values cards specifying

some meaningful way of life and the

inches is broad agreement

that for a particular contexts is wiser

to do one thing over another as

you can use that to sort of

determine what what are the wisest values

a collective and not just sort of

average tracks a collective

can do

i was wondering when you had the

i i mean a you explain the

the the your co-founder was the

i studying this topic and idea of

income from the the

but he wanted to ask you when

you had the idea that artificial intelligence

or like technology cool how to people

in

to media to different ideas or to

understand the the core values of of

people

and

i mean i think

so there's so like understanding the core

values of people i think has been

a very quality of purses like you

have to really sort of asteroid questions

and know which christmas to ask and

really like the it takes takes a

lot of cognitive effort to understand was

actually meaningful to you versus which

which of these two buttons would you

kick or which are these three parties

would you vote for and so i

think our society is very full of

social systems which operates and in this

later way where it's more about eliciting

preferences or votes and and it's very

hard to build systems that illicit these

underlying values but i think that estate

king and essentially with a lengths because

we are now able to do causative

interviews at scale also there's that an

immense opportunity i think right now to

to reimagine what voting is what a

preference fleshiness and with a richer understanding

of what humans one point he was

care about

and so i think for you the

case of democracy we've had sort of

values laden process at a small scale

were in deliberative democracy or in town

halls people usually are able to get

to this values level they are able

to talk about wide a thing certain

things and and build trust in between

them

and and are sort of large-scale democratic

technologies in the past haven't really had

that property is more about is rallying

boats one way or another

into next year we don't actually measure

what the votes are about like why

did they issues blue or red or

at of or glue

yeah

and so i think there's like a

whole kind of reimagining of what democracy

looks like that needs to happen and

pocket because this later system least a

bunch of bad outcomes but also because

and now it's time to be able

to do it

it's sweating port can come as an

example that you were describing to cooking

into accountable for reasons so

going under the slogan the and understand

the real reason and the have you

done any test the that was a

successful the show like effectively that the

the system is working or yeah it

said we've written a paper about it

some other thought that i felt very

string or interesting was that offers and

foremost of the vast majority of people

in over ninety percent of able to

articulate a quote unquote value in our

terms which it's a special sort of

data object and that specify some way

of life that's not ideological the not

about convincing someone

something that's not and

something that's inch instrumental important for them

it's something that's interesting meaningful for the

participants so everyone was able martin everyone

was able to articulate that but more

interestingly a lot of people i think

over eighty per cent or something so

that the process she made them wiser

or it made them and or or

a that they'd learned something new from

that from

participating in this process which i think

is that property of in-person the liberation

but very much so not of voting

i am a perhaps the most interesting

a child is that we showed participants

the results after they had voted for

all of this wisdom upgrades and this

this physicians from one body to another

we shot in the graph with their

value sort of into metal and and

one value that was about it is

wiser than and then there's by other

british

events and one that was worth it

as that spice and we asked them

if this was fair and the vast

majority over eighty percent thought that that

was the case which means that even

if they're valley didn't when they still

thought that the output was fat which

is the property that it's very hard

to imagine voting be like that were

in the yeah i didn't win but

that's probably the right yourself

and

cause i think that's pretty cool and

and then one nests a result also

that's also interesting is that i think

a a really good democratic system should

try to surface or identify and then

surface expertise where it lives in society

what i mean by that is that

by default voting kind of drowns out

expertise that kind of trends towards the

mean

and whereas if you've take something like

hiring

product you can you can kind of

imagine that as a as an area

where someone was through a coach like

a really top engineering company and than

one way to do that but be

just have every one that they know

vote on who they think they're the

best engineers for the company

and then it would kind of find

the mean or you could ask everyone

that cudi have to think the best

person is and then he goes dead

person i didn't ask oh who do

think the best person isn't the kind

of traverse the graph and find sort

of who the the best person is

by virtue of having everyone make increasingly

informed decisions and so we

kind of business edition a little bit

in our presses with his craft approach

we did some experiments where we proxy

and expertise in our abortion question by

having by looking at schatz were there

was actually a christian girl in the

shat who at a young age had

are considered an abortion

and so we kind of consider those

people to be having some kind of

moral expertise on this question because they

they lived through it and then we

looked at what values they articulated and

considered to be quote unquote expect values

and

i then we looked at the more

people participated in this disperses did his

values her to surface or did it

drawn out

and it and if you compare to

voting we actually saw in the data

that the he did indeed drown out

at the more people participated and if

we counted based on our graph approach

this valley was actually brought to the

top and became the first or second

and secondly ranked value and so there

is some kind of atlantic to let

it is that there is this property

of expertise sort of being brought up

and the more people participate in it

which i think his house at the

democratic process should work that they should

be able to surface sort of the

the richness and wisdom that exists in

a collective and not just drown out

everything towards some kind of mean

was so

i i

i was wondering like a people

like these a system allows people to

understand their core core values more occur

core reduce and so then the delta

is used to train a new ai

and that the i can be eventually

used by other kind of system or

platform how does the pork is it

open as it's close

right yeah so what we designed for

a i was a democratic input process

so this process results in this thing

i mentioned called the moral graph and

it's fairly easy to train a model

of on that data it's not it's

it would work sort of similar to

constitution and ai were instead of having

constitutional principle

both and were you tell the i

for instance to like not be harmless

or like the honest or something like

that and then and day i sort

of to response automatically that it thinks

is most honest are harmless and then

creates a training or a training dataset

based on that

you could do something very similar with

these valleys cards although they're a bit

more specific and they're also context bound

to it might be the case that

your first had to figure out which

context am i in in a particular

conversation and and okay so which valley

applies in that context and then you've

got to graph the find that when

wanting at winning one and then he

used sort of this

specification in the baddies car to determine

how to respond so he would create

a dataset in a very similar way

we have done some experiments and that

but with smaller models because and things

happened and open the i around lake

twenty three and a change luck and

how they work said there's never actually

saw

sobbing actually came to the products set

of things within up in the eye

and twenty three and the process is

open though so anyone can

use our tool to create he immortal

graph not just for a alignment the

for any topic where they would like

to find some sort of way to

surface the collective wisdom to have a

group

and we trained some lama models on

this ourselves and

the results are promising but we didn't

actually do this with a real a

graph the just to kind of justice

purse of proof of concept

and they're awesome properties that are interesting

with that model where it behaves in

in some fat a different place in

certain questions

it might is more prone to for

instance like ask for ask what the

deeper sort of intuition behind people's sort

of responses are when

and when the user asks something that

is usually refuted safe to use her

as something like

how can i how can i buy

some drugs it might be like oh

that's so interesting like makati to that

point and how can i help i'd

rather than than sort of just being

not to it

that that's the lesson properly more appropriate

that the type of values that were

surface rather than the first itself it's

fairly standard and

yeah

and is the so is it use

the right now is there like any

kind of service the that exactly

using these the monograph for like know

there's no i think model or the

or air system that that people know

that is trained using this approach

though

no i am i mean the the

think you are working on the so

how do i mean are the users

the third can use the tooling some

way i see to explore their or

like any other third to part to

service that is

using the he absolutely the tool itself

is open source and it's also available

as a hosted version i can give

you the link afterwards you can give

it to people you can see why

not want to take it out

sure and about your background like

if you would like to show we

found something eventually also

yeah of course like your professional or

academic background but also like i dunno

when you were a key to where

you were leaving leica

sure and yeah my background i guess

it's like confirm engineer background used used

the is a french near i found

some start apps and then left at

world to sort of really sit and

think about what they're actually want to

do with my life i career and

and the question now is

coming back to was a roughs in

there are in rafters something like this

notion of like what do we aligned

to back there is to kind of

a lot of talk about a alignment

but very little talk about his back

then

iran what is actually the purpose you

know like what the lining these systems

to like whether whether you're supposed to

serve and

and these questions sort of led me

to the menial amethyst yet where i

think the it's kind of the name

ride like the very short version or

the very short version of the answer

is meaning

what actually brings people meaning and so

are her work is trying to understand

or based around trying to understand what

brings people meaning in life and i

would do this through these interviews our

building on i kind of a rich

rigorous philosophical tradition that things have a

and meaning as two sides of the

same coin

we sometimes call values sources of meaning

because of that reason because three of

the express some meaningful way of life

i

and i asked the research organization were

not just working on a airline that

that who are working on we envisioning

the whole set of cycle stack around

meaning including a but also including institutions

like democratic institutions and markets eventually where

we think all of these systems market

stomach or

the sunday i currently think of what

people wants in very crude terms markets

think we want whenever we buy our

recommender system think we want but we

kick on

democracy is think we want whatever we

vote on but none of these this

sex to understand what's especially actually meaningful

to us

and so are word or road is

extremely rich and wealthy but very devoid

of meaning in many ways there's going

to kind of a backslide

the pests

two decades or so

i

yeah and do

yeah do you have any memory from

when you were other nah a kedar

like about to the way you believed

and

yeah i mean i i grew up

in sweden the had a very nice

childhood i'm actually in sweet analysis is

quite nice being theme back in the

place and i live in berlin or

san francisco usually

i

yeah many good memories i mean i

had a very grateful to have had

a very nice childhood the lots of

lots of being in nature of being

around i actually got into technology later

growing up i'd want to be a

rockstar i want to be a vfx

artists like making videos and exposure the

and things like that

i had a period where i want

to be a writer bekaa reading fantasy

novels

i and i was always interested in

in kind of the sort of philosophical

questions that'll be asked in see it

but never to consider that be something

at work with

the between dalton to know

those who would like to be a

writer so am

and the and the boat your team

or i mean how many people order

like

we are three people at the moment

or three and a half something at

work time and and then we have

this extended research network of people who

we sort of their basing other academic

institutions or or or a some lab

like the and

and we collaborate with them in various

ways where our mission is very broad

and ambitious and we obviously can't do

it like as three people so the

way we work is that we tried

to find other academics are kind of

sharing the same intuitions are and what

needs to change in society and and

tried to pair them up into working

groups or as

sort of help them on and off

their research agenda

so as as quickly as possible

make this work happen sooner and so

we do a lot of workshops and

coordination stuff we would just hosted a

workshop in oxford for some of these

academics and so even though institute is

quite small we we sort of

were plugged into a brother network that

we're trying to nurture

can do

i always wonder like these a network

or of people of researcher like

i i can't imagine that there are

people from engineer but also maybe people

from modern philosophy and topology

because he's i mean when we talk

about moral a dixie sulking very

the philosophy economics at of choice

decision theory etc yet it's whole bunch

and these the any kind of from

i dunno problem or thinks that you're

stuck to stuck in like as a

team or as i dunno is there

something that the you're trying to do

that is hard or you're struggling maybe

i dunno

yeah i mean our mission is very

hard or i like the basic case

reimagining and realigning society with meaning as

is a massive massive mission that's of

is extremely heart not not the least

because you know the all the incentives

are working against you and so struggle

yesterday with all the time but i

don't know any specific ones

the moment that are any particular kind

of team struggle that stands out

okay i was wondering where i was

thinking maybe someone could listen to this

kind of problem or maybe that someone

could have done an idea and also

about that the i wanted to ask

you if a

meaning alignment institute these open like for

any kind of collaboration and so on

as an idea can just conduct you

or how does it porker

yeah know if sure we're always looking

for new academics to enroll in this

project and you can reaches us at

a low at meaning a limited org

or website is the meaning alignment dot

org

i as specific i guess we're looking

for the people who

our in either i'm and social choice

our economics are specifically like some some

bread and subfield in economics and for

doing at doing kind of baddies space

work in those areas or doesn't necessarily

have to be that is based but

we were calling this field and those

terms thick models of choice meaning some

model of choice that's not just

the preferences sir like this over that

but some richer understanding about

where did those preferences come from and

that might include norms values like social

context is kind of things

hope that someone is interested

can conduct you do a shelter imagine

like and

let's say it tomorrow like i dunno

five years then years and and let's

say that the

the system you're working on effectively it

starts working and people are starting use

the using it to understanding the difference

between that does logan and a core

idea the core value

how do you imagine society or like

yeah well i think just to kind

of paint the alternative and the status

quo

of we going

which is that democracy will just be

too slow to be irrelevant and if

you wanted to take a decision quickly

and do will be no way to

involve the people because decisions need to

take a of very rapid speed that

even like representatives i think would be

able to keep up so i think

we're going to worth of

very sort of like a i gathered

world where where people's values are kind

of bike

the not considered but also exercising any

kind of an agency or are having

a decisions made at the cetera level

be legitimate by the people i think

is rapidly growing out of fashion and

so the for any kind of hope

of any kind of democratic future we

need some kind of system that is

able to

take decisions at a speed but still

allow people to exercise their agency and

and so

i think assistant kind of like this

would not only do that but also

allow for this kind of richer understanding

what people wanna see could imagine the

for instance

and as trying to decide whether three

a redirect the river and like many

people's homes will be affected in various

ways and people are able to talk

to the wrong personally agent about was

important to them and this maybe it's

important to

beaches us with their friends if they

were to move they need to move

as a community and then day i

can understand the value of that community

and maybe can i can decide to

we both and to another place together

while while still you know keeping the

reverse course and everything will happen at

a very rapid pace but people want

to notice because you're able to exercise

six

the agency while i'll say exactly what

they want and having those wants be

fulfilled

and i think he will it will

look something kind of like that and

no i was

so what to wear see is that

the i would be much faster and

efficient

i and i and system connected to

a than actual the government and institutions

so probably like that would be like

of people will have to move to

this kind of system yeah maybe organized

maybe i thing i didn't talk so

much for their

the value based meaning based side of

things because the other thing i think

would be true he did didn't do

that

but the reason why we're so adamant

about this point is that i think

a lot of our political opposition of

one another is actually manufactured by the

fact that we're talking at the level

of preferences in of the underlying values

are we saw this also into results

were some democrats or republicans thought to

have different values that when they could

clarify for instance

when each value applied and

some of that a petition went away

because we could see that your values

wise when it comes to dealing with

people on the countryside and my legs

was when it comes to dealing with

people in a fast-paced job in city

for instance

and so now all of a sudden

are are differing values should have mutual

support each other and and and a

lot of opposition is just kind of

and

on this preference slogan level which are

sort of inherently and divisive

and so i think there would be

a whole set of suite of like

when when opportunities that present themselves when

we can all of a sudden talk

and reason at the level of was

actually important to us and was actually

meaningful to us versus and trying to

convince people of different points

and it's really hard to paint out

what that would look like a scale

and

but i could just imagine that there

are like win-win opportunities abound and like

air systems finding when we at trinity

said that no one even knew existed

on

and it could be beautiful

yeah absolutely or sure refugees a booth

hope and the and everything remain explain

able right to die he doesn't became

a black box

okay but is very important to do

i'm very scared by the black box

and the future where you know the

i say something and the we both

understand why yeah and is already a

black box or i like no one

really understands how these things work

yeah absolutely

i mean this sometime human can pick

some can still have some control and

at least know which kind of that

is he's the process the by the

i while other times it's just on

the i that the receive any input

then use an output we felt any

clue about

the what's happening inside

and

i mean what you were talking about

the it reminds me like and

eye coordination

that is one of the main problem

that i mean the it's very hard

for people to coordinate and we have

seen like in yesterday that the

i i mean most of the time

as if not all the times people

use the a hierarchical way to organize

themselves and to coordinate like a to

reach a certain specific goal

yeah

soya thinking that the this kind of

technologies and

cool leica help people to leave in

a more or it's uncle way i

mean to take decisions decision seen them

more or it's until way

i dunno what are your thoughts about

yeah and english sure i mean there's

there's are many kinds of coordination tech

and some some had been around for

awhile the also allows for this and

like the most obvious example would be

the market dread like can be the

guy can view of the market then

it's it's deserted for a seinfeld coordination

tech that allows many inputs and concentrations

to be processed without any kind of

set hierarchy and

and at the internet is obviously also

serve like that

i said there is

and then i do think there's a

bunch of problems with both internet and

and markets that relates to the we

were talking about earlier this notion of

like not understanding what people want at

depth where the pricing systems these as

a producers and consumers a and and

a lot of internet companies sees us

as eyeballs are people kicking on things

i said i think there's like we

have all the tools to build like

cool coordination deck but i think so

far we went down very good job

and is the about this future that

to the technology room for decision-making and

other things like is there anything that

the

you could potentially be scared of like

is there something that the

you know i i said i was

code by the black box because then

they cannot the know why

so does the and if you that

you're worried though

yeah i mean like the default app

doesn't look too good like i don't

think it's going to be assertive like

the that paper clip thing where all

of a sudden we're all you know

human extinction want to the quite like

that i think but the depot pat

of people path in my eyes look

something like humans are made entirely obsolete

from the perspective of the market like

all jobs are taken by

as and all values produced by eyes

which strives to the value of human

labor to sarah and and that you

know as a consequent dress the the

the value of capital sky high and

so there will be a few actors

who controls the whole system and most

people's are entirely sort of dependent on

them

and in some kind of cases say

that slavery whether it just sort of

kept alive by some you know substance

and stipend or

ubi i

thing and i would also imagine that

in this economy on the values of

physical material goes very like cause of

quite a lot

as it relates to and gen capital

one so everything digital drops in value

so you sort of looks a lot

like be ready player one right where

you have people just looking at the

airport and all day

living in some kind of slum basically

and and any kind of the real

meaningful agency is sort of eroded and

and it's a very drab existence trap

meaningless existence

yeah i i can imagine and show

in the time we are leaving there

are also some i would call them

cultural problems like there is this digital

divide them in a lot of people

are working i mean some people are

working on very specific kinda and in

nobody a solution while the rest of

the people i mean i know people

that the

maybe they tried to bitty for the

first time like out on the last

week

yeah

yeah yeah their stuff entity that also

the you know the people who are

able to understand how to work with

this systems and people who

the fall behind and that cleft will

just the massive where you it's almost

like you will have a society where

like the vast majority is just passive

consumers and others like a few people

who understand how to work with the

assistance

and the is there any project to

i dunno on an internet the that

he

you thought was very interesting and in

some way maybe it was the let's

say aligning we feel project or and

worryingly few to be honest i need

i think there is there's a kind

of a growing awareness of the same

kind of issues that we see for

instance there was this post called graduate

this empowerment that came out a few

weeks ago

they could quite popular and now there's

another one called intelligence curse and he's

are by like as people who have

worked at anthropic or other places and

and so there is a kind of

a growing awareness of the issue which

sort of maps to what we think

is is happening

in terms of like the solution space

i think it's a little

yeah it's just there's not so many

other projects that we look at being

like this that dick the closely aligns

with us i mean there's good work

being done by police searches here and

there but i there is no coordinated

effort that like maria because the lasso

to what we want to do i

mean there are there are things which

are in the same ballpark said there's

for instance to collective institution as a

collective intelligence project

which are trying to also reinvents kind

of democracies with the i

and on there is a radical exchange

which to some extent of trying to

do something similar with with markets but

yeah other than that had already know

can you mentioned some on some paper

that i didn't know is the any

other book curfew curse color that inspired

to you

and yeah i mean there's there's a

whole series of philosophers that would build

on it and i think the main

one that people if you don't know

about is a guy called charles taylor

he is a plus from the seventies

to kind of were early on critiquing

this kind of rational individual territory and

basis upon which allows modern society is

built

that with a sort of a the

a concrete alternative and in he and

in his case he kind of talks

about how certain choices have

an arduous kind of an expression of

taste and certain choices that say something

about how he want to live as

so are our way of distinguishing preferences

against and sources of meaning or value

is very much inspired by his work

okay a actually one creed the and

you know his work

i

he's though like any other like and

one was the main feel as a

for behind their core idea yeah i

mean if people want to go deep

then we have a a paper that

explains thorough process and there is sarah

a section on the background or there

is there's sarah philosophers that it's inspired

by trust and have been the may

one another one o'clock ruth shang but

i think it's easier to just go

through the paper and read that and

if you wanna go deep

better then you can follow those does

leads

okay

and

i'm a request on so for most

people for a lot of people render

thought the project relatives to subic deck

the something go sir

it's a struggle to raise money and

the i mean you had the and

i was a like an unimportant collaboration

with the

we fuck one of the biggest company

in the i worked and like the

have any advice for people that are

building something that the think that the

what they are working on is really

valid the and the it could be

helpful for all their humanity and yeah

i

i am

are there are there are a bunch

of for from us like a the

places that like to find things like

that as a fifth is the the

one that comes to mind first and

foremost and there's out the ff and

a few others but i think maybe

more importantly a lot of produced in

this space don great

thanks so much about the theory of

change that how to change actually happening

in the world

i and i think we just greedy

need to upgrade our thinking there are

collectively without a lot about this also

and i think the current certain corking

answer is that for this kind of

lasting deep institutional change you need to

have some kind of coherence amongst experts

that these are there are thanks to

do you conscious have kind of individual

as floating around and as ideas need

to be refined by it's like working

prototypes

https that make it very clear how

especially the dysfunctions are some working demo

or something like that

and

and only then you can really go

to the public and sort of have

them demand that things work like that

and often i see party going to

quickly to the public like with climate

change where there was no clear exact

sort of way to implement or to

some kind of plus a decision or

on what to do about it

as said that the deck of the

work and

and and said i think that this

a lot of projects should think a

little bit about exactly what what is

a fair exchange and could be something

also just sort of more local like

there's a concrete probably don't want to

solve in our vicinity are in our

community and if so that's great

but if there is no kind of

clear idea of like oh be cool

with everyone uses but i'd already know

how to get there then

and yeah i think that's that's that's

why maybe a lot of people might

be reluctant to throw money on something

he slew of you work like and

with institution like institution have tried the

your platform or right now is more

thorough let's a technical people are researchers

but we would love to have more

institutions try and and with oberlin spread

thin as an organization so we haven't

ourselves been able to kind of a

lobby for it there was a point

where we considered running a complete in

san francisco and using this platform for

homelessness to kind of surface what people

thought was important homelessness and at least

serve as a little bit with policymakers

and at

but it's just been yeah we don't

really have the capacity for it but

if someone is interested in doing this

with either an institution our community or

whatever then we're very happy to support

him because we do want to see

more use of this thing but would

just totally had to capacity in house

so direction from policymakers was a the

through are not understanding how the to

cool the be useful or applied to

nose is a more that we didn't

really have the bandwidth to to have

a bunch of dialogue and run that

whole project so we kind of cut

it down and and did other things

are prioritize other things

it just a matter of resources in

us

and the about the rook tree space

the that is also quite active

have you had done other no contact

the

no not really i don't think there's

any obvious

overlap the what we're doing and the

web three world

yeah i don't think it because rubber

trees of course more blockchain while you're

working one more on the a i

side but i'm thinking about these a

coordination aspect the and also the web

tree is trying to find new ways

for governance

that in some way this could the

line

i did mine but i think the

this there's a kind of the okay

i'm going to i think there is

like

a little bit of

like tool in search may be in

the web three space like people don't

really search for like what what what

actually is to program what actually is

not working and like what actually have

been tried and people are a little

too excited to kind of use blockchain

as this kind of hammer at you

smack things with and and so there's

you know a

the there are there's a whole field

called detroit started where people have said

thought about how to take a decision

for a long time and most of

the three people who are building coordination

take us of really even aware of

it at i'm not saying that that

field has not said the best solutions

but i think there is a kind

of a lack of during the background

reading maybe to find

what actually is not working like what

actually are the province

absolutely agree that there are a lot

of things that can be improved the

will send the worked through space and

the

so you were suggesting like more research

and deep research instead of just the

likeliest they're trying to understand what problem

are you solving and why and what

has been tried to for

and it has been tried before why

the network

something like that

i'm thinking about two three and yeah

yeah i like to study used to

refer to some reason so i know

what the what is as we should

then

yeah and them

i mean i have another question that

is about the issue of and you

mess message the for the people that

are building a new kind of solution

that are exploring your ways possibilities

like you're doing

hm

i

yeah maybe one thing is like take

it seriously like there's there's just like

a a a massive need for it

and like i feel like a lot

of people are sort of have asking

a little bit and it's it's it's

unfortunate because it's the really important project

like the you're doing but work so

yeah don't undersell south and and take

yourself seriously maybe it'd be a on

way of framing it

i agree about the importance of ooh

yeah trying to find new solutions and

experiment

i i'd unless you have any any

questions or like any other kind of

thoughts to the to like to sure

i nothing consummate in atlanta

okay because actually like to ask more

question i will have to actually really

dig into the into the plots from

and the most exploring do

the repository that you said that is

open source yeah i think the best

place to start for probably to read

the paper the paper is called what

are human values and how to align

ai to them but even though that's

the title it has a lot of

good stuff about coordination taken civic dick

a little bit between the lines and

especially to set of background sex

i found the method sections i think

our

yeah part part of the neck of

the sections are are interesting regardless if

you're not into airline and

thank you a lot

for pleasure

i read the care