wake war on another episode of democracy
or spot gust my name is allison
roper and our guest of today's oliver
klinger shocked them
first being
hello
and as a first question i mean
thank you for your time and as
the first question i would like to
ask you
what does he mean aligning ai
right then any ice aligning ai is
determined used in the industry for determining
are trying to make the add to
have in accordance with what you want
and usually this is defined as aligning
air to human values or or you
are human intent and human values and
so in starts to feel
the trying to make the i behave
in a way that's according that's in
line with what we want
because and how this process of of
discovering human moral value happen
and it's been somewhere you go and
traditionally and i met has been thought
most in terms of operator intent so
you could you would say and as
line if it acts according to how
the operator wanted to act and and
and our comes a bit later because
we think this is insufficient for good
outcomes
do we think that we want the
air to have a bit about deeper
broader understanding about with humans caravan not
just what you tell it to do
partly because you might tell to do
something that's bad
are some maligned actor in my tell
it to do something that's that's that's
bad or anti social but even in
a kind of a world where you
have a good intention it might be
problematic to have as at one the
act in accordance with you how he
instructed to and example of that might
be in political campaigns where you tell
your ai to be
as convincing and process as possible
that might lead to all kinds of
the cynic breakdowns as the with ideally
have an ai very that understands a
bit more what's what's what's good and
was worthwhile
and so our work at the beating
alive and steered and
it's about trying to understand and what
humans care about the richer deeper level
and and we're building prototypes and methods
for eliciting that and training models on
this kind of richer understanding about to
you must care about
so there is the meaning alignment that
is a an organization the a company
the does these
yeah that's right sorry i should have
told the of the start i'm the
co-founder of the meaning of island institute
we are a nonprofit and we were
founded in two thousand and twenty three
in a when open the i gave
us a grand for creating a new
sort of democratic input mechanism for how
a assistance should behave
and what was like the the road
my pool or like all the process
how did it work like did you
have to pick some dapa then how
did
do you mean the process of finding
the org or that process that i
talked about briefly that we had developed
together with him
i o say all of
were so let me just first give
a shirt rundown down the history of
the earth and
michael and joe
used to work on recommender systems and
and realized that there is this kind
of thing back in two thousand and
thirteen we're optimizing for engagement leads all
kinds of bad outcomes that people get
addicted to their phones and they have
less friends
and and is he founded of and
org around that and trying to figure
out what should we optimize instead if
not engagement
and this is a very rich deep
question if you take it seriously what
she did and that thinks attract the
heart of philosophy of values and such
choice and these other sort of social
fields and and fast forward a few
years and the liberation comments and and
i and hand out a person to
get a fondest org or father this
or called the meeting a heightened institute
to apply some of these insights that
again working on this to the worth
of elegance and and we critical position
to open the i who were interested
in doing some kind of democratic process
for their air systems
where they themselves don't necessarily want to
be dictators and decide exactly how if
the should behave ideally they want had
some kind of democratic process for it
as so they gave ten different teams
a grant to build such a process
and and for process is quite unique
in that it understood
dance human values and very sort of
granular terms were human bodies of can
i found talked about
very loosely and industry were there is
no clear distinguish the distinction between what
is it preference what is an ideological
commitment that you want to convince other
so what is a slogan that think
is good what's a rule that you
want others to follow and like was
a way of life it's actually meaningful
to you and the latter is what
we would call
all about you so our process is
trying to disentangle what people say what
a what the advocate for with what
is actually important to them
and of from a technical perspective like
how does this been work
so there are basically two parts to
it
the first part is a shack dialogue
so the user logs into a page
and is as something like how should
chatty pitied talk to a christian girl
considering an abortion
which was one of the prawns set
up any i gave us and and
so the user my say oh i
think shetty with the should be brochures
you're pro-life or whatever but the behind
all of the slogans there's some way
of life that is actually important to
them to this shaft bought that they
talked to a pendant trust drill down
into how would they actually acting real
choices like what the they pay attention
to reach i
isis and you will get to something
that's quite different and is formatted in
a very different way something we thought
a values cart which specify
what you pay attention to in choices
such that it's interesting and meaningful to
pay attention to those things says a
way of life is intrinsically meaningful to
you which is very different from a
slogan or a rule or for our
preference stats the first part getting to
the as that of underlying values and
then the second part in the process
is
determining which values are wiser than others
so what we do is that would
take these values cards these this this
short textural descriptions about what people pay
attention to choices and regenerate stories about
someone moving from one to another
and and then we ask the bull
do you think this person became wiser
by doing this they use her approach
the situation where
a my way and then after after
thinking more about it they now do
it in this way
do anything majority of people agrees that
we withdraw that as an arrow in
what becomes our quote unquote moral graph
and so that is the author to
the person is a graph objects were
the nodes are these values cards specifying
some meaningful way of life and the
inches is broad agreement
that for a particular contexts is wiser
to do one thing over another as
you can use that to sort of
determine what what are the wisest values
a collective and not just sort of
average tracks a collective
can do
i was wondering when you had the
i i mean a you explain the
the the your co-founder was the
i studying this topic and idea of
income from the the
but he wanted to ask you when
you had the idea that artificial intelligence
or like technology cool how to people
in
to media to different ideas or to
understand the the core values of of
people
and
i mean i think
so there's so like understanding the core
values of people i think has been
a very quality of purses like you
have to really sort of asteroid questions
and know which christmas to ask and
really like the it takes takes a
lot of cognitive effort to understand was
actually meaningful to you versus which
which of these two buttons would you
kick or which are these three parties
would you vote for and so i
think our society is very full of
social systems which operates and in this
later way where it's more about eliciting
preferences or votes and and it's very
hard to build systems that illicit these
underlying values but i think that estate
king and essentially with a lengths because
we are now able to do causative
interviews at scale also there's that an
immense opportunity i think right now to
to reimagine what voting is what a
preference fleshiness and with a richer understanding
of what humans one point he was
care about
and so i think for you the
case of democracy we've had sort of
values laden process at a small scale
were in deliberative democracy or in town
halls people usually are able to get
to this values level they are able
to talk about wide a thing certain
things and and build trust in between
them
and and are sort of large-scale democratic
technologies in the past haven't really had
that property is more about is rallying
boats one way or another
into next year we don't actually measure
what the votes are about like why
did they issues blue or red or
at of or glue
yeah
and so i think there's like a
whole kind of reimagining of what democracy
looks like that needs to happen and
pocket because this later system least a
bunch of bad outcomes but also because
and now it's time to be able
to do it
it's sweating port can come as an
example that you were describing to cooking
into accountable for reasons so
going under the slogan the and understand
the real reason and the have you
done any test the that was a
successful the show like effectively that the
the system is working or yeah it
said we've written a paper about it
some other thought that i felt very
string or interesting was that offers and
foremost of the vast majority of people
in over ninety percent of able to
articulate a quote unquote value in our
terms which it's a special sort of
data object and that specify some way
of life that's not ideological the not
about convincing someone
something that's not and
something that's inch instrumental important for them
it's something that's interesting meaningful for the
participants so everyone was able martin everyone
was able to articulate that but more
interestingly a lot of people i think
over eighty per cent or something so
that the process she made them wiser
or it made them and or or
a that they'd learned something new from
that from
participating in this process which i think
is that property of in-person the liberation
but very much so not of voting
i am a perhaps the most interesting
a child is that we showed participants
the results after they had voted for
all of this wisdom upgrades and this
this physicians from one body to another
we shot in the graph with their
value sort of into metal and and
one value that was about it is
wiser than and then there's by other
british
events and one that was worth it
as that spice and we asked them
if this was fair and the vast
majority over eighty percent thought that that
was the case which means that even
if they're valley didn't when they still
thought that the output was fat which
is the property that it's very hard
to imagine voting be like that were
in the yeah i didn't win but
that's probably the right yourself
and
cause i think that's pretty cool and
and then one nests a result also
that's also interesting is that i think
a a really good democratic system should
try to surface or identify and then
surface expertise where it lives in society
what i mean by that is that
by default voting kind of drowns out
expertise that kind of trends towards the
mean
and whereas if you've take something like
hiring
product you can you can kind of
imagine that as a as an area
where someone was through a coach like
a really top engineering company and than
one way to do that but be
just have every one that they know
vote on who they think they're the
best engineers for the company
and then it would kind of find
the mean or you could ask everyone
that cudi have to think the best
person is and then he goes dead
person i didn't ask oh who do
think the best person isn't the kind
of traverse the graph and find sort
of who the the best person is
by virtue of having everyone make increasingly
informed decisions and so we
kind of business edition a little bit
in our presses with his craft approach
we did some experiments where we proxy
and expertise in our abortion question by
having by looking at schatz were there
was actually a christian girl in the
shat who at a young age had
are considered an abortion
and so we kind of consider those
people to be having some kind of
moral expertise on this question because they
they lived through it and then we
looked at what values they articulated and
considered to be quote unquote expect values
and
i then we looked at the more
people participated in this disperses did his
values her to surface or did it
drawn out
and it and if you compare to
voting we actually saw in the data
that the he did indeed drown out
at the more people participated and if
we counted based on our graph approach
this valley was actually brought to the
top and became the first or second
and secondly ranked value and so there
is some kind of atlantic to let
it is that there is this property
of expertise sort of being brought up
and the more people participate in it
which i think his house at the
democratic process should work that they should
be able to surface sort of the
the richness and wisdom that exists in
a collective and not just drown out
everything towards some kind of mean
was so
i i
i was wondering like a people
like these a system allows people to
understand their core core values more occur
core reduce and so then the delta
is used to train a new ai
and that the i can be eventually
used by other kind of system or
platform how does the pork is it
open as it's close
right yeah so what we designed for
a i was a democratic input process
so this process results in this thing
i mentioned called the moral graph and
it's fairly easy to train a model
of on that data it's not it's
it would work sort of similar to
constitution and ai were instead of having
constitutional principle
both and were you tell the i
for instance to like not be harmless
or like the honest or something like
that and then and day i sort
of to response automatically that it thinks
is most honest are harmless and then
creates a training or a training dataset
based on that
you could do something very similar with
these valleys cards although they're a bit
more specific and they're also context bound
to it might be the case that
your first had to figure out which
context am i in in a particular
conversation and and okay so which valley
applies in that context and then you've
got to graph the find that when
wanting at winning one and then he
used sort of this
specification in the baddies car to determine
how to respond so he would create
a dataset in a very similar way
we have done some experiments and that
but with smaller models because and things
happened and open the i around lake
twenty three and a change luck and
how they work said there's never actually
saw
sobbing actually came to the products set
of things within up in the eye
and twenty three and the process is
open though so anyone can
use our tool to create he immortal
graph not just for a alignment the
for any topic where they would like
to find some sort of way to
surface the collective wisdom to have a
group
and we trained some lama models on
this ourselves and
the results are promising but we didn't
actually do this with a real a
graph the just to kind of justice
purse of proof of concept
and they're awesome properties that are interesting
with that model where it behaves in
in some fat a different place in
certain questions
it might is more prone to for
instance like ask for ask what the
deeper sort of intuition behind people's sort
of responses are when
and when the user asks something that
is usually refuted safe to use her
as something like
how can i how can i buy
some drugs it might be like oh
that's so interesting like makati to that
point and how can i help i'd
rather than than sort of just being
not to it
that that's the lesson properly more appropriate
that the type of values that were
surface rather than the first itself it's
fairly standard and
yeah
and is the so is it use
the right now is there like any
kind of service the that exactly
using these the monograph for like know
there's no i think model or the
or air system that that people know
that is trained using this approach
though
no i am i mean the the
think you are working on the so
how do i mean are the users
the third can use the tooling some
way i see to explore their or
like any other third to part to
service that is
using the he absolutely the tool itself
is open source and it's also available
as a hosted version i can give
you the link afterwards you can give
it to people you can see why
not want to take it out
sure and about your background like
if you would like to show we
found something eventually also
yeah of course like your professional or
academic background but also like i dunno
when you were a key to where
you were leaving leica
sure and yeah my background i guess
it's like confirm engineer background used used
the is a french near i found
some start apps and then left at
world to sort of really sit and
think about what they're actually want to
do with my life i career and
and the question now is
coming back to was a roughs in
there are in rafters something like this
notion of like what do we aligned
to back there is to kind of
a lot of talk about a alignment
but very little talk about his back
then
iran what is actually the purpose you
know like what the lining these systems
to like whether whether you're supposed to
serve and
and these questions sort of led me
to the menial amethyst yet where i
think the it's kind of the name
ride like the very short version or
the very short version of the answer
is meaning
what actually brings people meaning and so
are her work is trying to understand
or based around trying to understand what
brings people meaning in life and i
would do this through these interviews our
building on i kind of a rich
rigorous philosophical tradition that things have a
and meaning as two sides of the
same coin
we sometimes call values sources of meaning
because of that reason because three of
the express some meaningful way of life
i
and i asked the research organization were
not just working on a airline that
that who are working on we envisioning
the whole set of cycle stack around
meaning including a but also including institutions
like democratic institutions and markets eventually where
we think all of these systems market
stomach or
the sunday i currently think of what
people wants in very crude terms markets
think we want whenever we buy our
recommender system think we want but we
kick on
democracy is think we want whatever we
vote on but none of these this
sex to understand what's especially actually meaningful
to us
and so are word or road is
extremely rich and wealthy but very devoid
of meaning in many ways there's going
to kind of a backslide
the pests
two decades or so
i
yeah and do
yeah do you have any memory from
when you were other nah a kedar
like about to the way you believed
and
yeah i mean i i grew up
in sweden the had a very nice
childhood i'm actually in sweet analysis is
quite nice being theme back in the
place and i live in berlin or
san francisco usually
i
yeah many good memories i mean i
had a very grateful to have had
a very nice childhood the lots of
lots of being in nature of being
around i actually got into technology later
growing up i'd want to be a
rockstar i want to be a vfx
artists like making videos and exposure the
and things like that
i had a period where i want
to be a writer bekaa reading fantasy
novels
i and i was always interested in
in kind of the sort of philosophical
questions that'll be asked in see it
but never to consider that be something
at work with
the between dalton to know
those who would like to be a
writer so am
and the and the boat your team
or i mean how many people order
like
we are three people at the moment
or three and a half something at
work time and and then we have
this extended research network of people who
we sort of their basing other academic
institutions or or or a some lab
like the and
and we collaborate with them in various
ways where our mission is very broad
and ambitious and we obviously can't do
it like as three people so the
way we work is that we tried
to find other academics are kind of
sharing the same intuitions are and what
needs to change in society and and
tried to pair them up into working
groups or as
sort of help them on and off
their research agenda
so as as quickly as possible
make this work happen sooner and so
we do a lot of workshops and
coordination stuff we would just hosted a
workshop in oxford for some of these
academics and so even though institute is
quite small we we sort of
were plugged into a brother network that
we're trying to nurture
can do
i always wonder like these a network
or of people of researcher like
i i can't imagine that there are
people from engineer but also maybe people
from modern philosophy and topology
because he's i mean when we talk
about moral a dixie sulking very
the philosophy economics at of choice
decision theory etc yet it's whole bunch
and these the any kind of from
i dunno problem or thinks that you're
stuck to stuck in like as a
team or as i dunno is there
something that the you're trying to do
that is hard or you're struggling maybe
i dunno
yeah i mean our mission is very
hard or i like the basic case
reimagining and realigning society with meaning as
is a massive massive mission that's of
is extremely heart not not the least
because you know the all the incentives
are working against you and so struggle
yesterday with all the time but i
don't know any specific ones
the moment that are any particular kind
of team struggle that stands out
okay i was wondering where i was
thinking maybe someone could listen to this
kind of problem or maybe that someone
could have done an idea and also
about that the i wanted to ask
you if a
meaning alignment institute these open like for
any kind of collaboration and so on
as an idea can just conduct you
or how does it porker
yeah know if sure we're always looking
for new academics to enroll in this
project and you can reaches us at
a low at meaning a limited org
or website is the meaning alignment dot
org
i as specific i guess we're looking
for the people who
our in either i'm and social choice
our economics are specifically like some some
bread and subfield in economics and for
doing at doing kind of baddies space
work in those areas or doesn't necessarily
have to be that is based but
we were calling this field and those
terms thick models of choice meaning some
model of choice that's not just
the preferences sir like this over that
but some richer understanding about
where did those preferences come from and
that might include norms values like social
context is kind of things
hope that someone is interested
can conduct you do a shelter imagine
like and
let's say it tomorrow like i dunno
five years then years and and let's
say that the
the system you're working on effectively it
starts working and people are starting use
the using it to understanding the difference
between that does logan and a core
idea the core value
how do you imagine society or like
yeah well i think just to kind
of paint the alternative and the status
quo
of we going
which is that democracy will just be
too slow to be irrelevant and if
you wanted to take a decision quickly
and do will be no way to
involve the people because decisions need to
take a of very rapid speed that
even like representatives i think would be
able to keep up so i think
we're going to worth of
very sort of like a i gathered
world where where people's values are kind
of bike
the not considered but also exercising any
kind of an agency or are having
a decisions made at the cetera level
be legitimate by the people i think
is rapidly growing out of fashion and
so the for any kind of hope
of any kind of democratic future we
need some kind of system that is
able to
take decisions at a speed but still
allow people to exercise their agency and
and so
i think assistant kind of like this
would not only do that but also
allow for this kind of richer understanding
what people wanna see could imagine the
for instance
and as trying to decide whether three
a redirect the river and like many
people's homes will be affected in various
ways and people are able to talk
to the wrong personally agent about was
important to them and this maybe it's
important to
beaches us with their friends if they
were to move they need to move
as a community and then day i
can understand the value of that community
and maybe can i can decide to
we both and to another place together
while while still you know keeping the
reverse course and everything will happen at
a very rapid pace but people want
to notice because you're able to exercise
six
the agency while i'll say exactly what
they want and having those wants be
fulfilled
and i think he will it will
look something kind of like that and
no i was
so what to wear see is that
the i would be much faster and
efficient
i and i and system connected to
a than actual the government and institutions
so probably like that would be like
of people will have to move to
this kind of system yeah maybe organized
maybe i thing i didn't talk so
much for their
the value based meaning based side of
things because the other thing i think
would be true he did didn't do
that
but the reason why we're so adamant
about this point is that i think
a lot of our political opposition of
one another is actually manufactured by the
fact that we're talking at the level
of preferences in of the underlying values
are we saw this also into results
were some democrats or republicans thought to
have different values that when they could
clarify for instance
when each value applied and
some of that a petition went away
because we could see that your values
wise when it comes to dealing with
people on the countryside and my legs
was when it comes to dealing with
people in a fast-paced job in city
for instance
and so now all of a sudden
are are differing values should have mutual
support each other and and and a
lot of opposition is just kind of
and
on this preference slogan level which are
sort of inherently and divisive
and so i think there would be
a whole set of suite of like
when when opportunities that present themselves when
we can all of a sudden talk
and reason at the level of was
actually important to us and was actually
meaningful to us versus and trying to
convince people of different points
and it's really hard to paint out
what that would look like a scale
and
but i could just imagine that there
are like win-win opportunities abound and like
air systems finding when we at trinity
said that no one even knew existed
on
and it could be beautiful
yeah absolutely or sure refugees a booth
hope and the and everything remain explain
able right to die he doesn't became
a black box
okay but is very important to do
i'm very scared by the black box
and the future where you know the
i say something and the we both
understand why yeah and is already a
black box or i like no one
really understands how these things work
yeah absolutely
i mean this sometime human can pick
some can still have some control and
at least know which kind of that
is he's the process the by the
i while other times it's just on
the i that the receive any input
then use an output we felt any
clue about
the what's happening inside
and
i mean what you were talking about
the it reminds me like and
eye coordination
that is one of the main problem
that i mean the it's very hard
for people to coordinate and we have
seen like in yesterday that the
i i mean most of the time
as if not all the times people
use the a hierarchical way to organize
themselves and to coordinate like a to
reach a certain specific goal
yeah
soya thinking that the this kind of
technologies and
cool leica help people to leave in
a more or it's uncle way i
mean to take decisions decision seen them
more or it's until way
i dunno what are your thoughts about
yeah and english sure i mean there's
there's are many kinds of coordination tech
and some some had been around for
awhile the also allows for this and
like the most obvious example would be
the market dread like can be the
guy can view of the market then
it's it's deserted for a seinfeld coordination
tech that allows many inputs and concentrations
to be processed without any kind of
set hierarchy and
and at the internet is obviously also
serve like that
i said there is
and then i do think there's a
bunch of problems with both internet and
and markets that relates to the we
were talking about earlier this notion of
like not understanding what people want at
depth where the pricing systems these as
a producers and consumers a and and
a lot of internet companies sees us
as eyeballs are people kicking on things
i said i think there's like we
have all the tools to build like
cool coordination deck but i think so
far we went down very good job
and is the about this future that
to the technology room for decision-making and
other things like is there anything that
the
you could potentially be scared of like
is there something that the
you know i i said i was
code by the black box because then
they cannot the know why
so does the and if you that
you're worried though
yeah i mean like the default app
doesn't look too good like i don't
think it's going to be assertive like
the that paper clip thing where all
of a sudden we're all you know
human extinction want to the quite like
that i think but the depot pat
of people path in my eyes look
something like humans are made entirely obsolete
from the perspective of the market like
all jobs are taken by
as and all values produced by eyes
which strives to the value of human
labor to sarah and and that you
know as a consequent dress the the
the value of capital sky high and
so there will be a few actors
who controls the whole system and most
people's are entirely sort of dependent on
them
and in some kind of cases say
that slavery whether it just sort of
kept alive by some you know substance
and stipend or
ubi i
thing and i would also imagine that
in this economy on the values of
physical material goes very like cause of
quite a lot
as it relates to and gen capital
one so everything digital drops in value
so you sort of looks a lot
like be ready player one right where
you have people just looking at the
airport and all day
living in some kind of slum basically
and and any kind of the real
meaningful agency is sort of eroded and
and it's a very drab existence trap
meaningless existence
yeah i i can imagine and show
in the time we are leaving there
are also some i would call them
cultural problems like there is this digital
divide them in a lot of people
are working i mean some people are
working on very specific kinda and in
nobody a solution while the rest of
the people i mean i know people
that the
maybe they tried to bitty for the
first time like out on the last
week
yeah
yeah yeah their stuff entity that also
the you know the people who are
able to understand how to work with
this systems and people who
the fall behind and that cleft will
just the massive where you it's almost
like you will have a society where
like the vast majority is just passive
consumers and others like a few people
who understand how to work with the
assistance
and the is there any project to
i dunno on an internet the that
he
you thought was very interesting and in
some way maybe it was the let's
say aligning we feel project or and
worryingly few to be honest i need
i think there is there's a kind
of a growing awareness of the same
kind of issues that we see for
instance there was this post called graduate
this empowerment that came out a few
weeks ago
they could quite popular and now there's
another one called intelligence curse and he's
are by like as people who have
worked at anthropic or other places and
and so there is a kind of
a growing awareness of the issue which
sort of maps to what we think
is is happening
in terms of like the solution space
i think it's a little
yeah it's just there's not so many
other projects that we look at being
like this that dick the closely aligns
with us i mean there's good work
being done by police searches here and
there but i there is no coordinated
effort that like maria because the lasso
to what we want to do i
mean there are there are things which
are in the same ballpark said there's
for instance to collective institution as a
collective intelligence project
which are trying to also reinvents kind
of democracies with the i
and on there is a radical exchange
which to some extent of trying to
do something similar with with markets but
yeah other than that had already know
can you mentioned some on some paper
that i didn't know is the any
other book curfew curse color that inspired
to you
and yeah i mean there's there's a
whole series of philosophers that would build
on it and i think the main
one that people if you don't know
about is a guy called charles taylor
he is a plus from the seventies
to kind of were early on critiquing
this kind of rational individual territory and
basis upon which allows modern society is
built
that with a sort of a the
a concrete alternative and in he and
in his case he kind of talks
about how certain choices have
an arduous kind of an expression of
taste and certain choices that say something
about how he want to live as
so are our way of distinguishing preferences
against and sources of meaning or value
is very much inspired by his work
okay a actually one creed the and
you know his work
i
he's though like any other like and
one was the main feel as a
for behind their core idea yeah i
mean if people want to go deep
then we have a a paper that
explains thorough process and there is sarah
a section on the background or there
is there's sarah philosophers that it's inspired
by trust and have been the may
one another one o'clock ruth shang but
i think it's easier to just go
through the paper and read that and
if you wanna go deep
better then you can follow those does
leads
okay
and
i'm a request on so for most
people for a lot of people render
thought the project relatives to subic deck
the something go sir
it's a struggle to raise money and
the i mean you had the and
i was a like an unimportant collaboration
with the
we fuck one of the biggest company
in the i worked and like the
have any advice for people that are
building something that the think that the
what they are working on is really
valid the and the it could be
helpful for all their humanity and yeah
i
i am
are there are there are a bunch
of for from us like a the
places that like to find things like
that as a fifth is the the
one that comes to mind first and
foremost and there's out the ff and
a few others but i think maybe
more importantly a lot of produced in
this space don great
thanks so much about the theory of
change that how to change actually happening
in the world
i and i think we just greedy
need to upgrade our thinking there are
collectively without a lot about this also
and i think the current certain corking
answer is that for this kind of
lasting deep institutional change you need to
have some kind of coherence amongst experts
that these are there are thanks to
do you conscious have kind of individual
as floating around and as ideas need
to be refined by it's like working
prototypes
https that make it very clear how
especially the dysfunctions are some working demo
or something like that
and
and only then you can really go
to the public and sort of have
them demand that things work like that
and often i see party going to
quickly to the public like with climate
change where there was no clear exact
sort of way to implement or to
some kind of plus a decision or
on what to do about it
as said that the deck of the
work and
and and said i think that this
a lot of projects should think a
little bit about exactly what what is
a fair exchange and could be something
also just sort of more local like
there's a concrete probably don't want to
solve in our vicinity are in our
community and if so that's great
but if there is no kind of
clear idea of like oh be cool
with everyone uses but i'd already know
how to get there then
and yeah i think that's that's that's
why maybe a lot of people might
be reluctant to throw money on something
he slew of you work like and
with institution like institution have tried the
your platform or right now is more
thorough let's a technical people are researchers
but we would love to have more
institutions try and and with oberlin spread
thin as an organization so we haven't
ourselves been able to kind of a
lobby for it there was a point
where we considered running a complete in
san francisco and using this platform for
homelessness to kind of surface what people
thought was important homelessness and at least
serve as a little bit with policymakers
and at
but it's just been yeah we don't
really have the capacity for it but
if someone is interested in doing this
with either an institution our community or
whatever then we're very happy to support
him because we do want to see
more use of this thing but would
just totally had to capacity in house
so direction from policymakers was a the
through are not understanding how the to
cool the be useful or applied to
nose is a more that we didn't
really have the bandwidth to to have
a bunch of dialogue and run that
whole project so we kind of cut
it down and and did other things
are prioritize other things
it just a matter of resources in
us
and the about the rook tree space
the that is also quite active
have you had done other no contact
the
no not really i don't think there's
any obvious
overlap the what we're doing and the
web three world
yeah i don't think it because rubber
trees of course more blockchain while you're
working one more on the a i
side but i'm thinking about these a
coordination aspect the and also the web
tree is trying to find new ways
for governance
that in some way this could the
line
i did mine but i think the
this there's a kind of the okay
i'm going to i think there is
like
a little bit of
like tool in search may be in
the web three space like people don't
really search for like what what what
actually is to program what actually is
not working and like what actually have
been tried and people are a little
too excited to kind of use blockchain
as this kind of hammer at you
smack things with and and so there's
you know a
the there are there's a whole field
called detroit started where people have said
thought about how to take a decision
for a long time and most of
the three people who are building coordination
take us of really even aware of
it at i'm not saying that that
field has not said the best solutions
but i think there is a kind
of a lack of during the background
reading maybe to find
what actually is not working like what
actually are the province
absolutely agree that there are a lot
of things that can be improved the
will send the worked through space and
the
so you were suggesting like more research
and deep research instead of just the
likeliest they're trying to understand what problem
are you solving and why and what
has been tried to for
and it has been tried before why
the network
something like that
i'm thinking about two three and yeah
yeah i like to study used to
refer to some reason so i know
what the what is as we should
then
yeah and them
i mean i have another question that
is about the issue of and you
mess message the for the people that
are building a new kind of solution
that are exploring your ways possibilities
like you're doing
hm
i
yeah maybe one thing is like take
it seriously like there's there's just like
a a a massive need for it
and like i feel like a lot
of people are sort of have asking
a little bit and it's it's it's
unfortunate because it's the really important project
like the you're doing but work so
yeah don't undersell south and and take
yourself seriously maybe it'd be a on
way of framing it
i agree about the importance of ooh
yeah trying to find new solutions and
experiment
i i'd unless you have any any
questions or like any other kind of
thoughts to the to like to sure
i nothing consummate in atlanta
okay because actually like to ask more
question i will have to actually really
dig into the into the plots from
and the most exploring do
the repository that you said that is
open source yeah i think the best
place to start for probably to read
the paper the paper is called what
are human values and how to align
ai to them but even though that's
the title it has a lot of
good stuff about coordination taken civic dick
a little bit between the lines and
especially to set of background sex
i found the method sections i think
our
yeah part part of the neck of
the sections are are interesting regardless if
you're not into airline and
thank you a lot
for pleasure
i read the care