Tate Berenbaum about Arweave and how a blockchain-based permanent storage impacts governance
Ep. 08

Tate Berenbaum about Arweave and how a blockchain-based permanent storage impacts governance

Episode description

22-year-old Tate Berenbaum discusses Arweave, a permanent data storage network designed to store data for 200+ years, along with his journey as a young founder in Web3. Learn how decentralized technology can preserve knowledge for future generations and the challenges of building in the crypto space.

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0:00

so welcome on on another episode of

0:02

democracy innovators podcast and our guests of

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today's date better bottom

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as a like update thank you for

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having the alex it's great to be

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here and the i mean your project

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is quite interesting i mean you're quite

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young

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i dunno how old are you know

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is ima i'm twenty two now but

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i think i was i was seventeen

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when i got into our river originally

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yeah

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is wonderful and would you like to

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tell us something about the the projects

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are working on i've seen also community

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lobster our the computer sure so maybe

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just to start with like a a

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story in terms of how i how

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i got into this stuff

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i i've been interested in crypto for

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a little while now since twenty seventeen

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in two thousand and nineteen i i

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stumbled across our we is completely by

1:05

chance and i use the brave browser

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and i don't know you know if

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if many people use that but it

1:11

gives you the ability to see these

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ads in

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change for for crypto and one of

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the ads was talking about permanent data

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storage and and so i ended up

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clicking on it and that led me

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to are we even in twenty nineteen

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at the time i didn't have a

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use case for it but i kind

1:30

of realized like out of all of

1:33

the things you could do with blockchain

1:34

technology store data permanently was a pretty

1:38

interesting one and and so i kind

1:40

of set it aside and and came

1:42

back to it when the pandemic started

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and twenty twenty and i was in

1:46

school at the time but my see

1:47

rule was canceled because the the school

1:50

itself wasn't sure how to my migrate

1:52

to the online learning environment so i

1:55

was basically stuck in my basements my

1:57

basement for six months with nothing to

1:59

do except build stuff and i just

2:02

started building developer tools on our reef

2:05

and i've been in are we even

2:07

in now

2:07

now a oh ever since our revisit

2:10

a permanent data storage network designed to

2:13

enable you to pay a one time

2:14

fee to store a piece of data

2:16

for at least two hundred years and

2:19

and the idea is creating a single

2:21

source of truth where people can upload

2:23

data and rely on it being available

2:25

and for fidelity and over

2:28

that period of time it at minimum

2:31

so our team now at community labs

2:35

that's my company is a software development

2:37

company and venture studio building out and

2:40

bootstrapping different types of use cases in

2:42

applications on top of our reef and

2:45

and you know we we sort of

2:47

see our job is similar to like

2:49

explorers and new territory

2:51

three permanent data storage introduces a bunch

2:53

of new primitives and and enables you

2:56

to do a lot of things that

2:57

you weren't really able to do with

2:59

other blockchain or web to technologies before

3:02

so we're building companies around those use

3:04

cases and helping them to spin out

3:06

operate on their own and and that

3:09

sort of what we do we're sort

3:10

of like a a lot

3:11

miniature version of consensus like consensus on

3:14

ethereum but for the army because system

3:17

and then aoe more recently is a

3:20

decentralized super computer built on top of

3:23

our reef and and it's really exciting

3:26

for us because now we can build

3:27

on top of permit data storage and

3:30

decentralized compete

3:31

in the same stack without having to

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rely on some blockchain for compute and

3:36

our refer for data storage

3:42

it's very interesting the thurman into that

3:44

the third concept the and i wonder

3:47

like a which kind of technology is

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used to achieve is a

3:54

two hundred years of safety yeah as

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a super interesting technology and the way

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it works is essentially will you pay

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a one time fee and the fee

4:09

the size of that fee is in

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proportion to the size of the data

4:13

that your upload

4:14

being at the time and that fee

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goes and into an endowment that is

4:19

then head out to to nodes overtime

4:22

for being able to prove that they're

4:23

storing your data and and the reason

4:27

it works is because if you look

4:30

at like a historical graph of what

4:32

the cost was to store

4:34

a piece of data over the last

4:36

fifty years on average and the costs

4:40

to actually saw a piece of data

4:42

has decreased around thirty percent year over

4:45

a year and and you know the

4:48

idea behind our we've is essentially a

4:51

bet on our rivers a bet that

4:52

the storage for or or the the

4:54

costs

4:55

to actually store data will continue to

4:56

decrease and and a lot of people

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are comfortable making that bad because it

5:02

has for the last fifty years pretty

5:04

pretty much and and also as our

5:08

lives become more digital and more online

5:11

more people are using the internet and

5:13

there are more incentives

5:15

for companies to actually make it cheaper

5:17

to store larger amounts of data and

5:19

so that's sort of very high level

5:21

but that sort of how are reworks

5:23

and and why it's able to do

5:24

that two hundred year guarantee

5:29

okay this is very interesting because i

5:32

do

5:34

you know like a is three m

5:37

is made the with the the primary

5:41

sources that humans and

5:45

like humans do things right things and

5:49

people of our time single cut the

5:51

source of that were written in the

5:53

past

5:54

and the now we are seeing like

5:58

a sort of the

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change like at are a lot of

6:04

sources are digital life

6:08

and the i saw some yes i

6:10

ago

6:11

i thought also in relation to janeiro

6:14

i that the eventually like someone could

6:18

the actually like with some users scraped

6:21

with some

6:23

a agent modify a lot of things

6:26

and the modify them forever like theoretically

6:30

like someone could the i dunno i

6:33

dunno remove like the word that the

6:34

metal from all books from all the

6:39

you may just and then for the

6:41

people of the future that fingal not

6:43

the exist

6:45

of course it is his arm

6:49

it is just an example

6:52

but that's why i think the this

6:54

project is interesting and the

6:59

i wanted to ask you like a

7:00

also there is another and like our

7:05

archive dot org that is a completely

7:08

different project but in some way they

7:12

share some similarity i think

7:16

yeah there

7:18

and so archive dot org is is

7:21

super interesting and i think that's the

7:24

team behind the wayback machine machine isn't

7:26

is that true

7:29

i think yes but i'm not completely

7:31

sure you

7:34

i think so and the the court

7:38

so you're right in that the similarities

7:40

are both are trying to make sure

7:42

that data that is on the internet

7:44

is is around overall very long period

7:47

of time and the core difference however

7:50

is our we've acts as a decentralized

7:52

network where

7:54

your data is stored in you know

7:56

hundreds of places around the world and

7:59

hundreds of people are essentially competing to

8:02

to make sure that is the case

8:04

and whereas with archive dot org and

8:06

the wayback machine you're essentially tray you

8:09

have to place trust on the team

8:11

behind archive dot org

8:13

and to make sure that the data

8:15

isn't loss that also makes i guess

8:19

the the other problem is that archive

8:20

dot org has is carrying a lot

8:22

of the costs to actually store that

8:25

data and maintain it over these years

8:27

and what happens if archive dot org

8:29

runs out of money and and has

8:31

to shut down and the data from

8:34

bubbly you know their the risk would

8:35

be that the data might not be

8:37

archived and or archive dot org could

8:39

could alter or manipulate the data that

8:42

their story and i don't think they're

8:45

doing that to be clear but the

8:47

whole point is that with are we

8:49

have you don't have to worry about

8:50

that you don't have to be concerned

8:52

of someone changing the data

8:54

because if they are they're are not

8:56

able to earn a payment for being

8:58

able to prove that their their story

9:02

yeah thank you exactly i totally agree

9:05

about desert centralization in archive dot target

9:09

and the i also don't think that

9:11

the they are what he finding anything

9:13

but the potentiality are still is there

9:18

and the

9:22

so you're tall as a when you

9:24

had the this idea that you are

9:26

browsing an internet and you saw another

9:28

type

9:30

and the

9:32

and i wouldn't was wondering how you

9:38

how you develop dead yet like leica

9:40

he said that you start developing some

9:42

tools and the like how did it

9:46

happen you met someone that i dunno

9:49

it's fire you the through the your

9:52

prisoner

9:54

so the first the first thing i

9:57

built on our reverse sort of a

9:58

sort of a funny story and

10:02

both of the to first projects that

10:05

i had they they were both influenced

10:07

by people and changing data or taking

10:10

it down and and it was knee

10:12

wanting to make sure that that wasn't

10:15

possible so and one of the first

10:18

projects was called nest dot land and

10:21

and

10:22

the idea behind it was there was

10:25

this new javascript runtime called dina that

10:29

that had shortly before then been released

10:33

and dino is sort of like know

10:35

js if you if you've heard of

10:36

that and and it was created by

10:39

ryan doll who also created note

10:42

and and so ryan had this you

10:44

know pretty big following people really admired

10:47

his work with no jas cause it's

10:48

kind of everywhere now and and dino

10:51

was you know supposed to be like

10:54

the the better version of note of

10:55

to fix all the mistakes that he

10:57

made building know js and i'm a

11:00

nerd and so i kinda got into

11:02

it i became pretty interested in dino

11:05

in the idea behind it and but

11:08

after i got into the the ecosystem

11:10

what i pretty quickly found out was

11:12

that people were sharing code one difference

11:17

between know js and and dino is

11:19

that for know there's this thing called

11:22

a package

11:22

manager where you reach out to a

11:25

package manager and say give me this

11:27

package and the package manager returns it

11:29

and that that dependency that code that

11:32

your now importing into your project is

11:34

essentially downloaded to your local file system

11:37

whereas with dino it's it's much simpler

11:40

if you want to include code uk

11:42

can just paste and a u r

11:44

l you can say import from and

11:46

then this web you earl

11:49

and that was really cool that like

11:51

it saved a lot of time off

11:52

people building in the ecosystem in it

11:54

made it easier for people to actually

11:56

share code around and cause you didn't

11:59

have to you know share this other

12:01

file that would tell you this package

12:04

manager everything had to download before you

12:06

could actually run it you could just

12:07

click run and it will

12:09

just run and dino and one of

12:12

the problems with that however was the

12:15

code that people were sharing that they

12:17

were sharing that code on links that

12:19

would be changed or they would break

12:22

and so what that introduced was the

12:25

ability for your code if you are

12:28

importing a bunch

12:29

each of links from the web your

12:31

code might randomly break because one of

12:33

those links breaks and there's nothing that

12:37

you can really do about that except

12:38

find another week that actually works or

12:41

download the dependency in the same way

12:44

that no dead and it was actually

12:46

a huge problem people were sharing the

12:48

this co

12:49

code on get hub links and so

12:53

you know it wasn't version control which

12:54

means people could update it or change

12:56

it or delete it and it can

12:58

break your code or even worse if

13:01

someone had like a malicious intent they

13:03

could change the code so that it

13:05

injects something into your code maliciously and

13:09

you know

13:09

changes your kobe's masses something up introduces

13:12

a virus and and so we needed

13:14

a place that you could actually go

13:17

to store code that developers could share

13:21

code on that you could rely on

13:23

the data not ever being able to

13:25

change or not ever going down and

13:28

and so for me

13:29

me when i came across dino and

13:31

i found this problem i was looking

13:35

i was thinking about you know are

13:36

we even and how permanent data storage

13:38

as a thing now and this technology

13:40

could solve it so spent a weekend

13:44

hacking with a few friends on discord

13:46

and had some late nights just building

13:48

out a solution that essentially just built

13:52

a website that you could upload your

13:54

code

13:55

through and then it would give you

13:57

a link that you could then used

13:59

import that code into your code base

14:02

and and it would never change your

14:04

go down and and not projects that

14:06

sort of how i started building on

14:08

are we have initially it kind of

14:09

repurposed are we have as a a

14:11

content delivery network for developers in their

14:13

code

14:15

and unintentionally at grew from you know

14:17

like a small we can project like

14:19

a vibrant open source community full of

14:21

developers and engineers that were a hundred

14:24

times smarter than me

14:26

so i was able to to learn

14:28

a lot through that process and also

14:30

meet a lot of the people that

14:31

are actually on our team now building

14:34

out things and community laps

14:38

okay that isn't that is interesting that

14:40

the and like yeah we can project

14:45

i think it was the unexpected and

14:48

to become such a big project for

14:51

sure

14:53

yeah it was not at all

14:55

yeah yeah sometimes the maybe you you

14:59

or someone else can edit the goal

15:00

of creating something big then that doesn't

15:03

happen so

15:05

i think at this as an exemple

15:08

to i mean always be open and

15:13

and try and try a on your

15:16

feelings and and thumping will happen and

15:19

the

15:21

it also made me laugh when you

15:24

say i like working with some friends

15:28

on discord like i can imagine other

15:30

people that you have found its were

15:32

passionate about different topics about the same

15:35

stuff and a and also this is

15:38

my experience like in real life sometimes

15:41

it's quite hard to find someone that

15:43

is interest the day in the these

15:44

things

15:46

while aligned line there are a lot

15:48

of people that yeah actually will not

15:50

sleep

15:52

the tarp ready to stay there and

15:55

could

15:58

yeah and then

16:00

oh sorry no yeah i was wondering

16:02

like yeah your experience the with the

16:06

different to online communities

16:11

because i think it's important i mean

16:12

if you are alone you can be

16:14

sulking but if you're alone the and

16:15

you can find out of people

16:19

then you can be the incredible projects

16:22

yeah do you know that that sort

16:25

of is a winding path for me

16:27

i didn't really have a process or

16:30

a goal to meet people and on

16:34

discord in in fact when i first

16:36

downloaded discord and twenty seventeen or two

16:38

the eighteen i was actually quite skeptical

16:40

and because i thought it was for

16:42

gamers and and i i i was

16:44

a gamer but i didn't necessarily want

16:47

to talk to other gamers about games

16:50

i wanted to build stuff and i

16:53

think that you know over the years

16:56

when i found is that

16:59

that they're they're really to two truths

17:02

that i had to come to terms

17:03

with when i was thinking about discordant

17:05

and getting involved in the communities there

17:08

and the first truth is that a

17:10

lot of people seem to think that

17:12

many of the best engineers live in

17:15

you know big tech companies or or

17:17

fang

17:18

and are in silicon valley in are

17:20

you know hacking on stuff and but

17:23

but really actually if you know where

17:26

to look some of the most talented

17:28

engineers in the world are fourteen year

17:31

olds on discord writing code on rebel

17:34

and with a chromebook

17:37

hum the amount of talent that is

17:39

on discord is actually is unbelievable and

17:44

and it's incredible because these people are

17:47

really talented it's also incredible because they

17:50

are really friendly people and all they

17:52

want to do is build stuff they're

17:53

not profit driven many of them and

17:57

and

17:57

they're just looking for friends to now

18:00

i i was nowhere near the the

18:02

the skill level that a lot of

18:04

these people were that i was working

18:06

with and but the way i i

18:08

earn actually met them and this is

18:11

sort of the second truth i guess

18:12

i came to was on

18:15

you you have to you have to

18:16

come in with something right you can't

18:18

come into a community and expect it

18:20

to give to you are you have

18:22

to provide at something and and maybe

18:24

something will come to you in return

18:26

although you shouldn't come into it expecting

18:28

that so what i would do is

18:30

i would join these communities of people

18:33

that were building discord bots

18:35

the time and i would come in

18:37

i was i was an engineer but

18:39

i i was still pretty new to

18:41

it at that time this was like

18:42

ten years ago

18:44

and and

18:47

less than ten years ago it was

18:49

probably six or seven years ago and

18:51

i was essentially coming in and offering

18:54

to do graphic design because all of

18:56

the engineers were so talented and incredible

18:59

what they did no one wanted to

19:00

like make it look good you know

19:02

they just wanted to make it powerful

19:04

and so i came in and i

19:05

said i'll just do graphics

19:07

for free and so i learned graphic

19:09

design i was using like gimp and

19:11

escape at the time i got affinity

19:14

after that this was like before figma

19:16

really took off and and i was

19:19

i was just making logos for people

19:21

are not sending that that ended up

19:23

being how i met the people that

19:24

i was working with on that project

19:27

by

19:27

but discord is is crazy linkedin is

19:30

not the place if you want to

19:31

find incredible talent

19:34

i i would say discord is yeah

19:39

okay this is super interesting

19:43

i think that a lot of people

19:44

struggled in the i mean people that

19:48

the would like to work on a

19:49

project people that the

19:52

yeah i like funding a new project

19:56

i mean the struggle because the sometimes

19:58

they want to do everything by themself

20:03

well as you said there are a

20:04

lot of talented people that may be

20:06

will like to contribute on some good

20:09

project

20:12

and the and yeah totally agree that

20:15

the like on telegram also like but

20:18

also discourage you can find that very

20:20

talented people and a very interesting projects

20:23

and

20:25

another things that the

20:28

i mean during the previous interviews i

20:31

mean the project where a smaller polite

20:34

a lot of people

20:36

i complained that find the finding fundings

20:41

is quite hard

20:43

sure

20:45

what was your experience like

20:48

yeah i

20:51

so so when you when you described

20:53

that i'm assuming you're referring to like

20:55

the the past to fundraising and getting

20:58

capital to to fund a project that

21:01

you're working on or or am i

21:02

misunderstanding

21:03

yeah yeah yeah like because otherwise you

21:06

will have to develop everything by yourself

21:08

and

21:10

yes and i missed not doable if

21:12

you don't have a community of people

21:14

that once just want to contribute on

21:16

a software

21:18

sure

21:19

yeah i mean you know i think

21:22

this is one of those things that

21:25

it it it shifts and changes with

21:28

time right now

21:30

the markets are are are not the

21:32

most green i guess that's one way

21:34

to put an end because of that

21:36

and that is sort of out a

21:38

trickle down effect of turning off the

21:40

risk tolerance of capital alligators and investors

21:44

and and i think it's harder now

21:46

than it was a couple of years

21:47

ago when i was getting off

21:50

the ground to to race to be

21:51

frank and with that said though i

21:55

think you know my my journey into

21:57

it wasn't exactly intentional either and my

22:02

my stories kind of strange cause i

22:04

i really it looking back on it

22:06

i stumbled into most of the things

22:08

that brought me where i am today

22:09

i i did

22:10

didn't come into it with a goal

22:12

wasn't looking to do and intentionally and

22:15

but but for fundraising and i continued

22:18

building for a few months after launching

22:21

that that developer tool that i was

22:23

talking about earlier and i went on

22:27

to continue building other products in our

22:30

reef because our we've had a need

22:32

and and no one else was was

22:34

building solutions to these problems that we

22:36

were having and because they are a

22:38

ton of opportunities elsewhere and so we

22:40

wanted to just doubled down on our

22:42

even build solutions ourself and one of

22:45

those products that we built was actually

22:48

the first decentralized exchange

22:50

on on a permanent data layer and

22:53

it was called vert and we we

22:55

launched it in i want to say

22:57

june of twenty twenty june or july

23:00

twenty twenty and and

23:03

you know looking back on that the

23:06

process there for actually getting capital was

23:11

essentially building a product that was useful

23:14

to people and the investors actually became

23:19

users because they wanted to exchange things

23:22

and so

23:23

we ended up meeting investors because they

23:25

were using the platform itself because this

23:28

was the first time they actually could

23:29

exchange value in an ecosystem like are

23:32

with

23:34

the other point i guess is i

23:37

at this time i also met the

23:39

the founder of our we his name

23:41

is sam and samp panel saw what

23:44

we were doing he realized that you

23:46

know there were like ten people working

23:48

for fun and on this stuff on

23:50

a full time basis just cause they

23:52

enjoyed it

23:53

ah and he kind of took us

23:55

under his wing and he wanted to

23:57

help us figure out how to make

23:58

it more sustainable so that i would

24:00

be able to continue building and and

24:03

at this point i was in high

24:04

school but but the goal was to

24:06

not have to go to college so

24:09

he was like look you should you

24:11

should meet a couple of people that

24:12

i know you should have

24:13

a conversation with them

24:15

and and you know i kinda got

24:17

on the phone and i i treated

24:19

it like shark tank i thought that

24:20

all of these investor meetings where where

24:23

where like shark tank warrior you know

24:25

using your manners saying yes ma'am no

24:27

ma'am yes sir no sir i'm from

24:29

the south so like you know these

24:31

things are more common and and you

24:34

you were treated

24:35

like shark tank and you give a

24:36

pitch and then the sharks would be

24:38

sharks and they tried you know get

24:40

your numbers down and and what i

24:44

found was actually the the exact opposite

24:46

and i got on the phone and

24:49

with some of these people and there

24:51

were like do not one of them

24:52

in particular was don't don't ever don't

24:54

call me so

24:55

sir you know man that's weird like

24:58

we this is a deal like this

24:59

a partnership between two people you're giving

25:02

us something we're not just doing you

25:03

a favorite here you're giving us tokens

25:05

you're giving us equity and and so

25:09

i i learned that these things are

25:11

not like shark tank pretty quickly and

25:14

but i really did just

25:15

kind of stumble into it and once

25:17

we got our first investor to commit

25:19

and to say that they were interested

25:21

then you know it branch from there

25:23

that he introduced me to to to

25:25

people that became very close advisers to

25:27

the company and that then also invested

25:31

in than those people introduced me to

25:32

to people and had just started with

25:34

one that started with with

25:36

sam and and kind of branched out

25:38

from there so i would say for

25:40

people that are looking to to raise

25:43

you know

25:45

number one it's important to excuse me

25:48

to be able to ship quickly if

25:50

you're able to build quickly are able

25:52

to learn quickly figure out a product

25:54

that works you know we already had

25:55

a product we weren't going to people

25:57

in pitching them on the idea of

25:59

a product we had something that was

26:00

already live that worked

26:03

that helped us i think looking back

26:05

on it the other thing that helped

26:07

us was just being honest about the

26:09

situation we weren't sure you know we

26:11

didn't know what the plan was to

26:13

scale that to a billion dollars and

26:17

we were just taking each day as

26:18

it came building what customers had asked

26:20

for and trying to do it quickly

26:22

and it turns out you know

26:23

no investors at the pre sea level

26:25

they they don't necessarily want to see

26:27

this master plan that they want to

26:29

see honesty and transparency and they want

26:31

to see people that are doing thanks

26:33

for the right reasons

26:34

and and you know i'm very thankful

26:37

to the people that that took a

26:39

chance on us in the early days

26:41

and but i think that for me

26:43

the process was you know what was

26:45

different because i i really wasn't doing

26:48

it intentionally it was sort of accidental

26:51

and i'm trying to think if there

26:53

any other

26:55

points that i would make in relation

26:57

to helping of

27:02

yeah i really like these a how

27:05

everything opinion as seems spontaneous way and

27:10

then

27:12

some funders

27:14

are also worried that their with the

27:18

the venture capitalists i mean they will

27:20

deleuze the control of their project so

27:24

sometimes it's also like something that the

27:28

can stop them

27:31

yeah

27:33

i mean i think and that definitely

27:37

not definitely can happen if you if

27:38

you sell too much and the the

27:41

game i guess is figuring out how

27:44

much you need to sell and to

27:47

be able to sustain yourself in to

27:48

get to that next milestone into accomplish

27:51

the goal and

27:53

if you can't sell if you can't

27:56

get by without selling too much then

27:58

yeah i mean you don't want to

28:00

lose control that's for sure so i

28:02

think that's a fair concern

28:07

and thank you for your experience and

28:09

the

28:11

i didn't really ask anything about you

28:14

and they would like to

28:17

i mean you you told has as

28:19

and like you got the idea but

28:23

like if you'll like to say something

28:25

more about you like you said the

28:28

i'm an arab emirates an of the

28:31

but the

28:33

yeah like what you like what are

28:36

your of this where did you grow

28:38

up for like sure

28:41

i i don't have great answers to

28:44

to the hobbies question i think you

28:46

know my my obvious my my job

28:50

i really i really enjoy what i

28:52

do and so i spend a lot

28:54

of time doing it as a as

28:55

a result i i grew up in

28:58

in virginia in the u s and

29:00

the the

29:01

the south of virginia was a near

29:04

the closest city was was called rono

29:07

and it was yeah pretty small town

29:11

very small town environment i don't know

29:13

if anyone's ever seen the show friday

29:15

night lights on netflix but the way

29:18

that show is portrayed in

29:21

texas was a very similar lifestyle to

29:24

to how i kind of grew up

29:26

in in virginia at the time and

29:29

there were a ton of people that

29:30

were interested in what i was interested

29:33

in growing up and so that was

29:35

another reason why i went to discord

29:36

and tried to meet people that air

29:38

because you know it my school wasn't

29:41

really

29:41

the when i was getting into it

29:43

at least they they weren't teaching how

29:45

to code or they weren't teaching you

29:46

how to build stuff and they were

29:49

teaching us a lot of other things

29:51

that were useful in retrospect but but

29:53

coating wasn't one of them and so

29:56

i think you know for me

29:58

coding was like writing code was a

30:00

hobby

30:01

and i was fortunate to find a

30:04

way to turn it into a job

30:05

for myself by starting things and by

30:07

building stuff and but i don't know

30:11

i mean i think in terms of

30:13

other hobbies i i recently started trying

30:16

to get good at tennis and i

30:18

really enjoy playing tennis but tennis is

30:20

hard because

30:22

the courts are very crowded there are

30:25

a lot of people that that liked

30:26

her to play tennis pickleball and and

30:30

it takes to you you need to

30:31

people and i have a weird schedule

30:34

so i can't just text someone at

30:36

ten p m at night and say

30:37

hey do you want to go play

30:38

tennis right now when i finish my

30:39

work and so that's been

30:42

challenge i also enjoy skiing but that's

30:45

again there are some constraints there i

30:47

live in texas now and there aren't

30:50

exactly mountains nearby to ski it's a

30:52

bit warm here yeah

31:00

sorry i looked to the table to

31:02

omit the

31:05

i was thinking that the i mean

31:06

you you have a some experiencing the

31:09

web tree and the how will do

31:15

like is there like any kind of

31:18

problem that you then defined in the

31:20

web tree space generic problem like i

31:24

dunno fragmentation

31:28

whatever like her

31:32

yeah i mean so i would say

31:34

they're sort of and

31:36

there's maybe two two buckets of of

31:39

one could say problems and other could

31:41

say opportunities and one of the one

31:44

of the buckets is like opportunities that

31:46

exist within web three to to build

31:48

new thanks to build new products on

31:50

top of the technology i spend most

31:53

of my time thinking about that in

31:54

the context of of our read

31:56

a oh and but the other the

31:58

other i guess bucket of of problems

32:01

slash opportunities as you know the the

32:04

structure and that the nature and the

32:07

the way that people actually go about

32:09

doing work in the first place in

32:11

this industry and you know i think

32:14

that

32:16

tokens are a really incredible invention and

32:20

the idea of making it easy to

32:22

to create these these reward vehicles that

32:24

can be used to incentivize other people

32:27

to do things with minimal management is

32:30

is brilliant it makes a lot of

32:31

sense in it's it's proving itself out

32:33

with bitcoin at the beginning and

32:37

but the other slippery slope that you

32:39

run into his people conflating the equity

32:42

of accompany with the business model of

32:46

accompany and then applying that idea to

32:49

a token itself and the problem there

32:52

when when you don't have a separation

32:54

of those two things that not all

32:56

the time

32:56

time but the risk is people turn

32:59

the business model into selling the token

33:02

the business model becomes convincing other people

33:04

to buy the thing and in some

33:07

cases that might make sense with things

33:09

like nf teas or mean coins and

33:12

i don't own meme coins personally but

33:14

i guess i can see the appeal

33:15

of at for some

33:17

whereas for for others then you have

33:19

dislike you know that this risky territory

33:22

where people are marketing themselves as building

33:25

really meaningful technology and but the technology

33:30

isn't actually the product the proud the

33:32

product is the token people just want

33:34

you to to by the token and

33:35

say you're buying it because of the

33:36

techno

33:37

biology even though the technology may not

33:39

even exist or it may not work

33:41

and there are a lot of projects

33:42

that have made it of are remarkably

33:45

far in this industry and that are

33:49

that are sort of exercising that are

33:51

practicing it and it's hard it's hard

33:54

for me to see as someone who

33:55

cares about technology and

33:57

and likes to build stuff and and

34:00

likes to see a token as as

34:01

sort of a tool to build mechanisms

34:04

and it's hard to see the industry

34:06

be so captivated by people that are

34:10

not always being honest about what the

34:12

token represents and and i think that

34:15

there's risk to that that that you

34:17

know

34:17

people have have unfortunately had to deal

34:20

with the consequences of in the past

34:22

i don't think that those risks necessarily

34:25

make this entire industry invalid or it

34:29

doesn't make it worth it to come

34:30

into the space and build stuff and

34:33

but you know with i guess with

34:35

like the with great power comes great

34:37

reason

34:37

sensibility and we're seeing that play out

34:40

for sure

34:43

yeah i've seen also i think i

34:47

understand what he referred to like that

34:50

many projects are like yeah they just

34:53

want to sell the tokens and a

34:55

described the project and the per product

34:57

is so big but nothing has made

34:59

the and the the threat to raise

35:01

money and

35:02

yes sometimes they seems like a little

35:05

be like skin

35:07

yeah

35:09

some of them

35:12

and i i was when elect their

35:13

the future of the web tree i

35:15

mean them

35:17

ahem there is there this idea about

35:19

the building a decentralized things

35:24

the decentralized application and so on

35:28

and i wonder like a how do

35:29

you see it like and

35:34

i dunno like quoted her is your

35:37

idea

35:38

yeah it's a big question and

35:44

you know i i think that

35:49

there there are few a few possible

35:52

scenarios that that we see play out

35:54

over the next ten to twenty years

35:56

and i think one of them at

35:58

the the chance of it happening is

35:59

is pretty pretty significant now

36:03

crypto and and web three as as

36:06

payment rails for the next version of

36:07

the web i think is sort of

36:09

a narrative that that makes a lot

36:11

of sense and it's funny it's taken

36:14

stable coins close to ten years to

36:17

to become cool

36:18

but there's some truth behind the idea

36:21

of making stable coin payments sort of

36:24

a reality and and and ubiquitous across

36:28

the world because it's just so much

36:29

more efficient than the existing systems that

36:32

exist and so you know i i

36:36

think like crypto as

36:38

as rails for the next version of

36:41

finance makes sense i do think that

36:44

will happen over the next ten years

36:46

i think it's already in motion and

36:48

and it's sort of too big to

36:50

to be killed at this point and

36:53

what's more interesting go for for me

36:55

at least is beyond finance what are

36:58

the

36:59

areas in crypto that that will take

37:01

off and will remain and that that

37:05

aren't necessarily directly related to to finance

37:09

and i think our we've has an

37:11

interesting position in that and because you

37:14

know one one way to think about

37:16

how to how to predict the future

37:18

is and to

37:19

trying to to figure out what will

37:20

change about the world and ten years

37:23

and but a lot of people discount

37:25

the idea and this is sort of

37:26

amazon strategy they forget to think about

37:29

what won't change and there are some

37:32

of the things that we exhibit or

37:35

or or there are several things in

37:36

the world that we value that i

37:38

really think will not

37:39

not change over the next ten years

37:40

regardless of everything else that does

37:45

one of those things is valuing a

37:48

source of truth for data as the

37:50

world becomes more online and becomes more

37:53

digital globalization continues to evolve in the

37:57

digital landscape

37:59

the importance of having a source of

38:02

truth will not change in time i

38:04

think that'll always be a need regardless

38:06

of how much ai is doing things

38:08

for humans regardless of what humans are

38:10

doing in general we need a source

38:12

of truth and so

38:16

excuse me from the second

38:20

her sorry i think that you know

38:22

i think that are we've makes a

38:25

lot of sense as that source of

38:26

truth and and the next version of

38:29

the web will also need that type

38:33

of technology to exist both as and

38:36

accountability mechanism but also philosophically

38:39

in this kind of tying it back

38:40

to history and you know giving ourselves

38:43

the ability to to inform decisions for

38:46

people generations down the line so that

38:49

they can potentially avoid the same mistakes

38:51

that we made and in our generation

38:55

and and books books or or one

38:58

source for

38:59

that but books can be can be

39:01

burned you know we saw this with

39:03

with germany people were manipulated by hitler

39:06

and do to you know his ability

39:09

to to basically a race knowledge and

39:11

prevent people from understanding the consequences of

39:14

what he was doing and and army

39:16

makes it possible to avoid that so

39:19

i

39:19

i think in ten to fifteen years

39:22

and crypto will be the way to

39:26

transmit value and i think our we've

39:29

specifically will be the way for knowledge

39:32

to be shared any knowledge that has

39:34

any amount of value and and and

39:37

value in persisting will be

39:39

the way that that should remain in

39:42

and should be share

39:46

i think he also about and

39:50

i mean web tree of of course

39:53

money

39:55

and finance can be done us in

39:59

a the centralized way with the web

40:01

tree and i think he was about

40:03

governance that is something very important that

40:08

in there web three space that is

40:10

also quite political as a space i

40:13

mean except for the scams and

40:15

the project that are not really projects

40:18

but aren't that good product the good

40:20

products of the not alike

40:23

and they creating i will say they

40:25

can sort of new kind of infrastructure

40:29

do

40:31

and for many things like some a

40:34

technological infrastructure but also in some way

40:38

or political

40:41

yeah and the

40:44

like a relation they i mean i

40:47

think you have explorer built as i

40:49

said the explored the web tree alike

40:51

in relation to governance

40:54

what are your thoughts like if you

40:56

have seen him some dollars in some

40:59

organization yeah

41:03

yeah i mean i think so so

41:06

governance is one of the ones that

41:07

i think is a bit harder for

41:08

me to to think about what the

41:12

future of it could be ten years

41:13

from now and

41:17

you know i i think

41:21

so so one of the things that

41:22

really captivated me when i was getting

41:24

into crypto in twenty seventeen was was

41:26

the idea of being able to create

41:28

supposedly perfect governance structures powered by imperfect

41:31

people

41:33

and and you know there there's something

41:37

to that right the idea behind crypto

41:39

it it makes a lot of sense

41:40

in theory dow make sense as well

41:42

because it creates a structure to incentivize

41:45

people to do things

41:48

in practice i think it has some

41:50

bugs that we still have to work

41:51

out i don't know how many dallas

41:53

have actually been successful at you know

41:56

surviving without any form of centralized governance

42:01

and and the core reason for that

42:02

seems to be tragedy of the comments

42:04

where people on paper

42:07

her have this universal incentive to contribute

42:10

value to the dow and everyone else

42:13

benefits from doing so but in practice

42:16

no one contribute to the doubt because

42:19

everyone assumes that everyone else's contributing to

42:21

the doubt

42:23

and so nothing happens without someone standing

42:26

up and actually coordinating people and holding

42:28

them accountable and getting them to do

42:30

things and i think that that is

42:33

one of the big that sort of

42:35

the achilles heel from from the dallas

42:37

that i've witnessed that's like the the

42:39

thing that prevents them from actually working

42:41

in sustaining themselves with to

42:43

time and this also comes from my

42:45

own experience trying to launch a doubt

42:47

we tried to decentralized virgo in the

42:49

development of vertigo and and we tried

42:51

to launch a down realize the exact

42:53

same thing in the process of of

42:56

doing so i think there is a

42:58

lot of promise behind the idea in

43:01

the theory of a doubt if we

43:02

can perfect

43:03

the model and figure out how we

43:05

can actually avoid the pitfall of tragedy

43:08

of the commons in the process of

43:10

creating a down while simultaneously avoiding centralization

43:14

and but it's not perfect it's not

43:17

perfect yet and i think that there

43:19

are many doubts that market themselves as

43:21

decentralized that i i

43:23

i really don't know if they actually

43:25

are a you if you can go

43:27

into it and look look at what's

43:29

actually happening and how things are actually

43:31

being organized and one of the products

43:35

that were building inside of community labs

43:37

is actually aimed at creating a a

43:39

solution a potential solution to this problem

43:42

because ironic

43:43

the the one of them more decentralized

43:46

things and is is bitcoin itself it's

43:48

the first saw to she doesn't exist

43:50

any more it's sort of headless in

43:52

that sense and but one of the

43:54

problems that exists along with that as

43:56

the the concept of okay well how

43:58

is bitcoins code base actually governed if

44:01

you look at get hub there is

44:02

a specific number of

44:04

maintainers that are at their own discretion

44:06

allowed to make changes to get hubs

44:09

code base or the code-based that people

44:11

recognize is like the official bitcoin code

44:13

base and and that's crazy to think

44:16

about you know bitcoins been around for

44:18

all these years satoshi doesn't exist any

44:20

more and yet there's like five people

44:22

that are deciding whether or not that

44:24

coins kobe should change and it's crazy

44:27

you know that's like the most decentralized

44:29

thing that exists right now

44:32

but that seems to be a problem

44:34

some one of the solution that will

44:35

and building is essentially creating a model

44:39

where you can store your code on

44:40

our we've and create incentives for people

44:43

to fork those code basis if they

44:44

believe changes should be made and then

44:47

creating essentially like a fork resolution system

44:50

and that and

44:51

neighbours us to algorithmically figure out which

44:54

version of the code base should be

44:56

considered the main version defined by what

45:00

everyone else is using at the time

45:03

a pet this is so interesting because

45:05

of yeah i also have seen this

45:08

kind of sorts of centralization in the

45:12

they called the and the in in

45:14

the people that can decide the if

45:16

they called the can change or not

45:18

the end of thinking that the

45:22

the desert possibility of forking and eventually

45:27

how did you say like a to

45:29

to merger but like you know like

45:32

resolving the forks figuring out there should

45:35

be resolving the fork i am thinking

45:38

about the some a civic participation software

45:41

or like

45:43

and softer that are created the to

45:47

mediate between the different position so like

45:50

a conflict resolution basically an ai agents

45:55

that has they're all of a mediator

45:59

and as he these two finger associated

46:01

like i dunno i for

46:02

orca your code the

46:05

because i have a different idea from

46:06

you and then that if we want

46:08

to again to merged decode the i

46:10

mean i think we also have to

46:11

talk and to understand like different though

46:15

possible positions and the and i'm quite

46:19

were excited of

46:23

by all this possibility and that's crazy

46:27

year i guess like the the the

46:31

thesis

46:32

oh i'm sorry what were you saying

46:34

none not go go please the the

46:36

thesis of of that products specifically as

46:38

that maybe maybe the best governance is

46:41

creating a function for anyone to do

46:44

anything and and creating rules for the

46:48

best version to win rather than enabling

46:51

a council

46:52

our committee to sit down and decide

46:54

what the best version is setting the

46:56

rules of the game out and letting

46:58

people play it to figure out what

47:00

you know what version is is the

47:02

winner

47:04

i don't know if i would say

47:05

maybe the best governance is no governance

47:07

in this case but but that is

47:09

sort of the idea to solve the

47:10

problem maybe the problem with the dow

47:12

is to focus on empowering individuals to

47:15

act on their own volition rather than

47:18

empowering the group to act together and

47:22

but yes sorry i i interrupt

47:24

did what were you saying

47:25

no not am

47:28

i was deciding something but then the

47:31

i i mean i was talking about

47:34

ai agents and as so that the

47:36

you are working on some similar like

47:40

a the decentralized agents right to

47:43

yeah so one of the products that

47:46

were working on this is more in

47:48

like the the r and d phase

47:50

right now is an aoe as a

47:53

supercomputer it gives us the ability to

47:55

do some things that are pretty different

47:57

from other ecosystems and crypto a one

48:01

of the features is called cron and

48:03

it essentially

48:04

enables we they're they're like smart contracts

48:06

but we call them processes on aoe

48:09

that enables processes to wake up and

48:11

go to sleep without any human interaction

48:14

and and i think that's super interesting

48:17

for one the other the other core

48:19

mechanic that were playing with inside of

48:21

a oh that's pretty unique is the

48:24

i

48:24

idea of and trusted execution environments these

48:28

and that essentially creates an environment where

48:32

you could store private data or be

48:34

running private computation that aren't accessible to

48:37

the world while still being able to

48:38

prove that they're happening and and and

48:41

validate that they're correct

48:43

i sort of similar to like the

48:45

idea behind zero knowledge proofs and but

48:49

the interesting thing is when you combine

48:51

those two primitives you can essentially create

48:54

these cross chain agents that have the

48:56

ability to operate from inside of a

48:59

oh and but can make transactions on

49:03

other blogs

49:03

chains and and act on other blockchains

49:06

because these processes are the smart contracts

49:09

are actually holding keys to to make

49:11

transactions themselves independently controlled by am so

49:16

we're really excited about that because i

49:18

think there are a lot of interesting

49:20

use cases that that opens up for

49:21

defy for building bro

49:23

ridges exchanges cross chain infrastructure and you

49:28

know increasing compose ability between a oh

49:30

and and the rest of the ecosystems

49:33

and and also i guess kind of

49:35

positioning a is a coprocessor you could

49:37

see a world where if people are

49:39

trying to build really intelligent and trading

49:42

algorithms an ether

49:43

graham it would actually make more sense

49:46

to to put the logic in something

49:48

like a oh and have it execute

49:50

on ethereum if that's what you care

49:52

about and and the reason for that

49:55

is because computation is so much cheaper

49:57

on a on a o then theory

49:58

you can actually run large language models

50:00

inside of a oh as well i

50:03

just crave

50:04

easy like that would be very expensive

50:05

to run on ethereum if you could

50:07

build it or really any other ecosystem

50:09

and you know we've been doing it

50:11

for the last six months inside of

50:12

a oh so you know a was

50:15

a coprocessor i think is an interesting

50:17

narrative and we believe the long game

50:20

is for aoe to to be you

50:22

know everything and you don't really know

50:24

i think like ethereum to be honest

50:26

and but for now i think positioning

50:29

it as or is very interesting for

50:31

the crusher in egypt suitcase yeah of

50:34

the serve her like them may be

50:36

stupid question like i was wondering like

50:39

and and the i agent that is

50:42

decentralized does it mean lake

50:45

and that it cannot be stopped the

50:50

like in away if it is like

50:51

as as mark contract if the savior

50:54

and of locked-in yeah it's a good

50:56

question there are definitely some i guess

51:00

like a i safety implications that the

51:02

after be considered and

51:05

so so i guess technically you know

51:07

there there is a threat there and

51:10

but you could convince nodes on the

51:12

network to not run a process if

51:14

it were malicious for one and you

51:17

could essentially convince them to blacklist that

51:20

and not run the compute and contribute

51:21

to it and for to these things

51:24

they

51:25

they they they still costs money there's

51:27

still a cost that is incurred and

51:30

if your funding this agent and the

51:31

computation behind it but you run out

51:33

of money to be able to continue

51:35

funding it and no one will run

51:38

the computation because they won't have the

51:39

incentive to so i think there are

51:41

definitely some more that's a rabbit hole

51:44

we could we could go down there

51:45

that cause i i don't want to

51:47

we don't want to create like the

51:49

ultron of this world and like habit

51:52

live on a o ah but but

51:55

it is an interesting an interesting angle

51:57

for sure

52:00

and the about the projects you're working

52:03

on is there anything game i all

52:06

any problem that you are struggling with

52:09

i dunno i've read something you

52:13

that you cannot find a solution may

52:15

be you cannot even find the right

52:16

person that can find the solution

52:19

new

52:22

you know we're we're really fortunate to

52:25

have a great team in a great

52:28

group of people that that love more

52:30

than anything finding solutions to theoretically unsolvable

52:34

problems

52:36

and so i think that i don't

52:39

see many problems as as unsolvable may

52:42

be one of the one of the

52:44

more interesting ones that's perhaps philosophical as

52:47

opposed to technical is

52:51

the question of does the best technology

52:53

always win

52:56

that's been something that we've considered and

52:58

back and forth a lot over the

53:00

last few months as we've discovered what

53:03

aoe can actually do it's is becoming

53:05

increasingly evident that aoe is objectively the

53:09

best technology it is the most efficient

53:13

and it enables you to do things

53:14

that no one else can

53:16

compete with and but if you look

53:19

back in history does the best technology

53:21

always win and that's a that's an

53:24

interesting one and in it sort of

53:26

comes the reason i think about it

53:27

is because i you know a oh

53:30

as as a technology has as many

53:31

strengths but one of the things that

53:33

we're still trying to do is figure

53:35

out how to talk

53:36

about it

53:37

because it is so different than everything

53:38

else we haven't quite figured out the

53:40

way to pitch it to the world

53:42

and away this you know that the

53:43

world really understands the the implications and

53:45

the value of it and and so

53:48

we have to ask ourselves you know

53:51

does the best technology always win and

53:54

and personally i i regardless

53:57

of of the answer i'd be curious

53:59

to hear yours

54:00

i think that we should plan for

54:02

the best technology not winning so that

54:04

we can make it when

54:07

even if it weren't the best but

54:10

it is an interesting philosophical debate that

54:12

we've gone back and forth on quite

54:14

a bit recently yeah what do you

54:16

think

54:17

yeah good question

54:20

ah actually

54:24

actually the know i mean if we

54:26

save best acknowledge it means that the

54:28

actually there is one the acknowledges that

54:31

is better than the other and

54:34

les cap

54:36

i am making us stupid example i

54:40

like i think this and decentralized such

54:42

a networks or so the one that

54:45

are not running on web three like

54:47

and a on the and other kind

54:49

of such a network in a way

54:50

they

54:52

they will be better and that centralized

54:55

such a network but i see very

54:59

associated with a cultural problem so i

55:02

mean must of the people don't know

55:04

the existence of decentralize as such a

55:06

network and the

55:11

and also when they discovered them if

55:13

they register then there alone because all

55:16

their friend our own

55:18

probably mythos platforms or or eggs

55:23

and the

55:27

and i think must have the time

55:28

these a culture of problem that that

55:32

as you said that you you don't

55:34

know how to describe your platform like

55:38

two people

55:40

and the

55:43

i think this is the may be

55:45

something death in the next years with

55:50

and i mean read now still there

55:53

is some digital divide between the pupil

55:57

that the knows a lot that that

55:58

to do not sleep always stays there

56:00

coding and the and people that that

56:04

i also have friends that told me

56:06

like oh yeah i never tried such

56:08

a pity or

56:10

or or another llm

56:14

and the in a way i think

56:17

that is also find that we leave

56:19

in i mean you don't have to

56:21

use the i like must have the

56:24

i mean from the beginning of the

56:25

were until now no one ever used

56:27

they argued before

56:29

the

56:32

but yet wearing a situation in a

56:34

and in a time where if you

56:37

done know some technology that there is

56:42

this thing like they say if you

56:46

if you're not interested in politics the

56:49

politics will be interested in you and

56:51

i think the same about technology

56:54

and i think i dunno maybe ten

56:57

years we will see like and new

57:00

generation like also now people are according

57:05

like i mean

57:07

inside schools

57:09

i see some difference relation to different

57:12

countries so like and not europe there

57:17

i think the

57:20

technological smarter

57:25

and the

57:28

yeah the best technology always win

57:35

i ever say but this is something

57:36

said the eminent not native relations ship

57:39

with may be with their what we

57:41

are talking about but they will say

57:43

that must have the time in history

57:45

the most deadly technology when and this

57:48

is something said hm

57:53

so like a

57:55

and i'll a lot of time we

57:57

developed technology thinking that the okay now

58:00

we will be free from we don't

58:03

have to work anymore in the in

58:05

the field of

58:08

but then what happened is that the

58:10

humans were always working some time also

58:14

e na

58:16

more non human way like instead of

58:19

working the field the and

58:24

at in in an open space they

58:25

started working in a

58:29

in in in a company

58:34

but what he wanted to say yeah

58:37

i forgot sauce

58:39

that's okay no worries at all it's

58:42

a it's a tough one i think

58:43

you can sort of point two cases

58:45

where sometimes the best technology did when

58:48

and and and and other times it

58:49

didn't and i guess that's why the

58:51

question is is so difficult sort of

58:53

you know why is that why is

58:55

that discrepancy apparent throughout time

58:59

and to your point

59:01

i think that power is certainly a

59:05

driver for things to win what what

59:07

empowers people and another driver i think

59:11

his experience what what provides people the

59:14

best experience and something i i was

59:17

having this debate recently with with an

59:20

old friend and

59:22

he brought up the case of of

59:23

qwerty as a keyboard layout it didn't

59:26

win it it it didn't win because

59:30

it was the most efficient it actually

59:32

wasn't compared to the existing way out

59:34

that was before that i can't remember

59:36

how to pronounce it but it started

59:37

with a d and i think it

59:38

was like the the warwick or something

59:40

and or do brac but qwerty one

59:44

because it prevented typewriters from their keys

59:48

jamming it was better at preventing keys

59:51

from jamming then it was at being

59:55

efficient and the pain of that increased

1:00:00

key jamie

1:00:00

ing was greater than the pain of

1:00:03

being may be slightly faster at typing

1:00:05

what you trying to think of in

1:00:07

general and so because of that forty

1:00:09

one on the typewriter and and now

1:00:11

it's one on keyboards everywhere even though

1:00:14

the the key jamming problem doesn't exist

1:00:16

any more i think that goes to

1:00:19

say like the best experience or

1:00:21

the the the that solution that offers

1:00:23

the least amount of friction probably has

1:00:25

the greatest shot at winning and but

1:00:28

maybe the thing that takes it home

1:00:29

as the network effect after you know

1:00:31

everyone uses qwerty no one has a

1:00:33

reason to move away from it because

1:00:35

now the friction of moving away from

1:00:36

it would be so significant

1:00:40

you know so who knows

1:00:44

yeah absolutely when people see an advantage

1:00:47

for them they they want to use

1:00:49

the platform i mean the want to

1:00:51

use the product to i mean that

1:00:53

solution only things i would say

1:00:58

is that santa sometimes i mean a

1:01:01

in our society

1:01:04

the our suffice the is quite complex

1:01:07

so as an example i it can

1:01:10

be that the solution that is actually

1:01:12

effective for me because i dunno i

1:01:15

everytime i go to war i mean

1:01:17

to my office usually take when our

1:01:20

if i use a certain solution i

1:01:22

take care to and twenty minutes less

1:01:24

yes

1:01:25

the it it could be

1:01:30

that the solution is not really a

1:01:31

area solution because it can be like

1:01:33

the resolution can be like taken off

1:01:35

his nearest my house or like change

1:01:37

my house like the places my house

1:01:40

yeah

1:01:42

so does it says something that came

1:01:44

into my mind right now as interesting

1:01:48

for sure

1:01:50

yeah we live in a very complex

1:01:51

society and the and about the network

1:01:55

effect is actually something that i love

1:01:59

because the many times the and also

1:02:02

your experience like a

1:02:05

of the spontaneous process that the

1:02:09

that your experience that with the project

1:02:12

you're working on

1:02:14

and the

1:02:19

i wonder like out

1:02:21

going back to people that the would

1:02:23

like to start something that have a

1:02:25

project or may be that would like

1:02:29

to contribute in some way because we

1:02:32

said like that the people can just

1:02:34

go on the skirt and find a

1:02:37

community or maybe and telegram or also

1:02:41

raided the

1:02:41

i think or yeah or eventually linkedin

1:02:46

i

1:02:48

but the as you said the if

1:02:50

you go

1:02:53

issue approach her community it's better if

1:02:56

you have something to give before having

1:02:59

before asking something

1:03:01

and the

1:03:04

i think these a for that is

1:03:07

quite the

1:03:09

understandable

1:03:10

sometimes is not easy

1:03:14

for most of the people and be

1:03:17

because it can be hard to approach

1:03:19

her community it's can be hard to

1:03:21

like a lot of people think okay

1:03:23

i've this the also my the i

1:03:25

want to take it i don't want

1:03:26

to share it because of the white

1:03:28

people gonna are going to steal it

1:03:31

i

1:03:35

and this is something i

1:03:39

yeah really fascinated by the national catholic

1:03:41

but by you by the fact that

1:03:43

that the i dunno we're chatting now

1:03:46

and may be some someone else will

1:03:47

hear what we are seeing it may

1:03:49

be getting spot maybe he would contact

1:03:51

as i dunno i asking say sulking

1:03:57

and the for

1:03:58

sure anything this is part of like

1:04:01

and

1:04:02

i

1:04:04

knowing that we do not know

1:04:07

i

1:04:10

that is a

1:04:13

i mean you are saying something and

1:04:19

your question about technology if the best

1:04:22

technology when was a philosophical question and

1:04:25

i also think that the

1:04:28

i mean philosophy

1:04:31

sometimes if it is seen

1:04:34

as the something that should the just

1:04:37

be

1:04:38

and books you know something boring that

1:04:41

to study but they think it relief

1:04:44

affect a lot what we are doing

1:04:46

or seen reality like in the real

1:04:47

world and then

1:04:51

yeah i could talk forever about the

1:04:53

thoracic so interrupting replaced

1:04:57

no no i yeah i mean i

1:04:59

think and may the last thing that

1:05:01

i'll say on it as

1:05:03

i i have another good friend who

1:05:07

kind of he he's not as much

1:05:08

of an engineer's i am he's he's

1:05:10

more of a youtuber actually and i

1:05:13

was talking to him a couple of

1:05:14

years ago and he was explaining to

1:05:17

me you know i found i i

1:05:21

kind of found other people that were

1:05:23

like minded by going into discord and

1:05:25

by you know offering to

1:05:27

do things he found people by publishing

1:05:30

youtube videos and the the videos that

1:05:33

resonated with people similar to what you're

1:05:36

describing with with those who might resonate

1:05:38

with this podcast and the that there's

1:05:41

a term that he kind of created

1:05:43

for that i think about a lot

1:05:44

the term is called energetic echolocation

1:05:48

and and the idea is essentially if

1:05:51

you're putting things out there it could

1:05:54

be anything it could be a video

1:05:55

it could be continent could be product

1:05:57

could be you know code and or

1:06:00

a logo you're you're essentially putting something

1:06:04

out there and that will automatically attract

1:06:07

or or attract the types of people

1:06:09

that would resonate with it

1:06:12

and it's really cool you know like

1:06:13

people don't see the world that way

1:06:15

it seems no one really thinks about

1:06:17

a world in terms of i can

1:06:18

find anyone i want as long as

1:06:21

i know what to put out into

1:06:22

the world and and i think youtube

1:06:26

as a good example of this because

1:06:27

anyone can build a following on youtube

1:06:29

if they're just knowing what to put

1:06:31

out

1:06:32

out and and in most cases they're

1:06:34

just putting out things that they like

1:06:35

themselves and naturally people like them also

1:06:40

like that content and kind of gravitate

1:06:42

towards them i think about it a

1:06:44

lot energetic echolocation and because for us

1:06:48

building accompany building products the whole game

1:06:51

is

1:06:52

creating a business around solving problems for

1:06:55

other people and but how does one

1:06:58

go about finding the people that you're

1:06:59

solving a problem for and and and

1:07:02

is his name's max max his ideas

1:07:06

stop trying to start putting stuff out

1:07:08

and and for the people that do

1:07:10

resonate with it start their start small

1:07:12

start having conversations with people grass roots

1:07:16

build it up organically and and overtime

1:07:19

if you actually are solving a problem

1:07:22

that you know energetic echolocation enables you

1:07:25

to find other people that that

1:07:26

resonate with that

1:07:30

yeah it's it's also

1:07:33

in a were related to have it

1:07:36

there are different kind of concept related

1:07:38

to fowler

1:07:41

and the one of them is like

1:07:44

people that have the same intention so

1:07:47

that would like to create the same

1:07:48

thing

1:07:50

and the and yet

1:07:53

at as you said a few produce

1:07:54

something if you purchase a content then

1:07:57

you also truck that the people and

1:07:58

you create the center of power and

1:08:01

you can actually change reality

1:08:04

i i i saw that the like

1:08:08

issue some more time otherwise i ii

1:08:12

more minutes i have a few more

1:08:14

minutes i will have to jump soon

1:08:15

unfortunately i have but maybe one more

1:08:18

question or or one more topic if

1:08:19

you want to chat

1:08:21

eyes

1:08:23

the don't worry don't worry it's a

1:08:25

it was very interesting just the if

1:08:27

you have a message a for the

1:08:28

people for the community like

1:08:33

buffing the web tree both in their

1:08:35

in their civic tech space that are

1:08:38

working on these a mediation agents i

1:08:41

that to organize the

1:08:46

yeah i mean so i i've i've

1:08:49

been a founder now for for five

1:08:51

years and and it's been a it's

1:08:54

been an interesting journey i wouldn't trade

1:08:56

it for anything i'm very grateful but

1:08:59

if i had to if i had

1:09:02

to describe what i think was

1:09:04

most important for me across the five

1:09:07

years of of that journey so far

1:09:09

i would say coming into what i'm

1:09:12

doing or or or surrounding myself with

1:09:16

people and or immersing myself in work

1:09:19

for the right reasons probably matter more

1:09:21

than anything else

1:09:23

and the the reason is because if

1:09:26

you're not doing it for the right

1:09:27

reasons when things get hard you will

1:09:30

lose the reason to keep doing it

1:09:33

and and for me i i i

1:09:36

really love are we have i care

1:09:37

a lot about permanent data storage and

1:09:39

i know that it's a very boring

1:09:41

thing to think about and but i

1:09:43

it's really powerful you know it's like

1:09:46

this stuff could really impact meaningfully the

1:09:49

the lives of our generations beyond us

1:09:52

and and i i find it hard

1:09:54

every time i wake up regardless of

1:09:56

how hard things are day to day

1:09:58

i still can't think of anything that

1:10:00

i think we'd be better used to

1:10:01

spend my time trying to build our

1:10:03

on top of than than our reef

1:10:06

because of that that impact or that

1:10:08

potential for impact i guess

1:10:11

i think for people that are looking

1:10:13

to get started if if you're if

1:10:15

you're building things you know putting things

1:10:18

out into the world i think that's

1:10:20

the best shot at getting funding that's

1:10:22

the best shot at finding people that

1:10:23

are like you not being afraid to

1:10:25

socialize your ideas for fear of somewhat

1:10:28

stealing them if you're afraid of someone's

1:10:30

stealing them than may

1:10:31

the you should just build it or

1:10:33

you should figure out how to build

1:10:34

it and

1:10:37

i guess a few years ago it

1:10:38

was more important to learn how to

1:10:39

code then it is now but now

1:10:41

you really don't have an excuse if

1:10:42

you have a few spare minutes at

1:10:44

the end of every day log into

1:10:46

cursor and and have a i build

1:10:48

it for you you know

1:10:52

yeah i agree it's incredible what i

1:10:54

can do now and then cure lot

1:10:56

to

1:10:57

was very interesting thank you yeah this

1:11:00

is a great conversation i really appreciated

1:11:02

alex thanks a lot can select the