Alessandro Oppo: Welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator podcast, and our guest of today is Gianluca Mizoraki.
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Alessandro Oppo: So thank you for your time, Gianluca.
Gianluca Misuraca: Thank you for the invitation, Alessandro. Hello, everyone.
Alessandro Oppo: And,
Alessandro Oppo: mean, you're working on many projects, and before we were
Alessandro Oppo: talking about inspiring
Alessandro Oppo: future,
Alessandro Oppo: would you like to tell us something?
Gianluca Misuraca: Yes. Maybe well, first of all, thanks again for the invitation, and it's a pleasure. And, I mean, maybe I give you
a bit of my background
Gianluca Misuraca: and how I got in fact to to,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, to be to get obsessed about the future or futures in a plural term
Gianluca Misuraca: So first of all, I've been working mainly in several institutions, United Nations, European Commissions,
Gianluca Misuraca: and working
Gianluca Misuraca: always at the intersection about
Gianluca Misuraca: policy, governance,
Gianluca Misuraca: technology.
Gianluca Misuraca: So democracy is clearly very much related to this.
Gianluca Misuraca: And in particular,
Gianluca Misuraca: always looking
Gianluca Misuraca: with a future perspective.
Gianluca Misuraca: I worked at the Institute for Perspective Technological Studies of the European Commission joint to the centre
Gianluca Misuraca: in Seville for
Gianluca Misuraca: more than twelve years.
Gianluca Misuraca: We have been always looking at
Gianluca Misuraca: how technology can impact society
Gianluca Misuraca: and what could be the future of
Gianluca Misuraca: Digital Europe.
Gianluca Misuraca: So we were talking about artificial intelligence
Gianluca Misuraca: many years ago before now became
Gianluca Misuraca: the
Gianluca Misuraca: new normal,
Gianluca Misuraca: and everybody's
Gianluca Misuraca: talking about it.
Gianluca Misuraca: And we can probably discuss about this later, and what are the implications indeed for democracy.
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean before that also they called Politechnique Federardo do Nausanne is where I started looking at
Gianluca Misuraca: scenarios for the future, how to roadmap
Gianluca Misuraca: and to try to understand, anticipate
Gianluca Misuraca: especially the
Gianluca Misuraca: possible negative consequences of certain
Gianluca Misuraca: choices and certain decisions. So how to equip policymakers
Gianluca Misuraca: also with
Gianluca Misuraca: the capacity
Gianluca Misuraca: not to,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say,
Gianluca Misuraca: see the future. Of course, this is impossible, but rather to
Gianluca Misuraca: better understand what
Gianluca Misuraca: should be avoided, for example, or what should be done, what strategies and policy
Gianluca Misuraca: would be better to put in place. That's why when I decided in the middle of COVID in 2020 to leave the
Gianluca Misuraca: European Commission, I actually
Gianluca Misuraca: set up with colleagues
Gianluca Misuraca: these new ventures, Inspiring Futures.
Gianluca Misuraca: Actually, we are based in Switzerland,
Gianluca Misuraca: but we also have Inspiring Futures Europe, actually, that is based in
Gianluca Misuraca: Madrid.
Gianluca Misuraca: But we work globally. I'm just back from The US. I'm going to Argentina next week. So we are working on different
projects. In particular, and maybe this is something we can elaborate a bit more,
Gianluca Misuraca: is exactly
Gianluca Misuraca: what kind of skills
Gianluca Misuraca: in relation to artificial intelligence
Gianluca Misuraca: we should
Gianluca Misuraca: reinforce and strengthen
Gianluca Misuraca: at different levels in our society.
Alessandro Oppo: You're
Alessandro Oppo: saying future or also possible futures, so in the plural way.
Alessandro Oppo: And I was thinking, how do you imagine like the a possible future or also the possible
Alessandro Oppo: plural futures?
Gianluca Misuraca: Well, I mean, we we I mean, we always say, I mean, there's a the the rule number one for a future
is this, you know, the future does we don't know which
Gianluca Misuraca: will be the future, no? Or
Gianluca Misuraca: some would say even the future doesn't really exist, it's how we shape it, how we construct the future.
Gianluca Misuraca: And there are possible alternative futures, and that's why it's always important to look at what
Gianluca Misuraca: could be the
Gianluca Misuraca: different directions, the certain choices of today
Gianluca Misuraca: with
Gianluca Misuraca: shape different futures. So I mean, I
Gianluca Misuraca: started
Gianluca Misuraca: many years ago already to
Gianluca Misuraca: make scenarios, especially about
Gianluca Misuraca: the possible impact of technology on society, I mean, were already
Gianluca Misuraca: as many others, of course we were
Gianluca Misuraca: not the only one seeing
Gianluca Misuraca: clearly
Gianluca Misuraca: the positive
Gianluca Misuraca: and the opportunities that technologies,
Gianluca Misuraca: different ways of technologies
Gianluca Misuraca: have and can have in our society. I mean, this
Gianluca Misuraca: cannot be denied.
Gianluca Misuraca: Technology, especially digital technologies in the last thirty, forty years has completely changed our society. And I would say in
general terms for the better because we
Gianluca Misuraca: can do things that
Gianluca Misuraca: in the past were not possible because of the technology
Gianluca Misuraca: and the kind of pervasiveness
Gianluca Misuraca: that we have, especially in certain parts of the world, not in all, of course. But then we have also the risks,
the
Gianluca Misuraca: possible
Gianluca Misuraca: negative
Gianluca Misuraca: consequences of, let's say, the bad use, the misuse of technologies,
Gianluca Misuraca: or the fact that society
Gianluca Misuraca: has become
Gianluca Misuraca: really
Gianluca Misuraca: somehow now used so much to certain technologies and
Gianluca Misuraca: our
Gianluca Misuraca: behaviours are shaped by those technologies because of course we could not, or we didn't know how to also regulate those technologies
Gianluca Misuraca: or we didn't want to regulate, we couldn't. So if we look at social media, I mean yesterday,
Gianluca Misuraca: this is very timely, yesterday the commission launched President von der Leyen
Gianluca Misuraca: a
Gianluca Misuraca: proposal to
Gianluca Misuraca: make
Gianluca Misuraca: compulsory for
Gianluca Misuraca: minors to
Gianluca Misuraca: show their age for
Gianluca Misuraca: access in social media so that basically they cannot
Gianluca Misuraca: do so. And this is in fact a major problem for the current generation.
Gianluca Misuraca: But definitely this is something that was already anticipated,
Gianluca Misuraca: I would say already twenty years ago,
Gianluca Misuraca: our
Gianluca Misuraca: social media could be a weapon also for democracy, and we see that every day.
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, I was in Washington last week, and if we see what's happening nowadays and
Gianluca Misuraca: the attempt to,
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, not the attempt, actually, the disinformation
Gianluca Misuraca: that is growing because of these technologies,
Gianluca Misuraca: it's not saying, I mean, we cannot just say, Oh, we didn't know, we have not seen this coming. Actually it was
there, and there are a lot of studies that were anticipating this, but probably actually
Gianluca Misuraca: the policymakers
Gianluca Misuraca: were not able or didn't want to really listen to that.
Gianluca Misuraca: Of course evidence is not so black
Gianluca Misuraca: and white. Of course there are many nuances,
Gianluca Misuraca: clearly there are
Gianluca Misuraca: some risks and some very dangerous, big, big dangers that some technologies are bringing.
Gianluca Misuraca: AI, artificial intelligence,
Gianluca Misuraca: is clearly probably
Gianluca Misuraca: the most prominent
Gianluca Misuraca: and
Gianluca Misuraca: also,
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, powerful
Gianluca Misuraca: set of technologies that we have today that could
Gianluca Misuraca: make, of course,
Gianluca Misuraca: a very
Gianluca Misuraca: good positive contribution to society, but also could create a lot of challenges. So that's why we have to look at the
future,
Gianluca Misuraca: I wouldn't say in a pessimistic way, but with
Gianluca Misuraca: careful
Gianluca Misuraca: attention to the fact that if we lose the control and it seems we are somehow or sometime losing it, we could,
Gianluca Misuraca: have bad,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, consequences.
Alessandro Oppo: And
Alessandro Oppo: so,
Alessandro Oppo: I mean, we can shape the future.
Alessandro Oppo: And I wonder, like, for you, like to shape a future that also you like to see
Alessandro Oppo: And also regarding like not losing the control also in relation to technology, what do you think should be important to do?
Gianluca Misuraca: Look, when when actually one of my last
Gianluca Misuraca: work when I was still in the European Commission was exactly in, in the period 2018,
Gianluca Misuraca: 2020.
Gianluca Misuraca: So we published this scenario for building and shaping a digital Euro 2040.
Gianluca Misuraca: And these were very timely because of course we were
Gianluca Misuraca: our work was to provide some evidence, some input, some contribution to the policy
Gianluca Misuraca: decision taken in Brussels and
Gianluca Misuraca: in the European
Gianluca Misuraca: capitals because this is a joint work, of course, of the Commission and the European Council and
Gianluca Misuraca: the Parliament. Clearly the Fund, for the first time in 2020,
Gianluca Misuraca: was launched a dedicated programme
Gianluca Misuraca: on digital from the Digital Euro programme, and a lot of emphasis
Gianluca Misuraca: was given to digital
Gianluca Misuraca: technologies with the digital
Gianluca Misuraca: digital decade policy programme, so the
Gianluca Misuraca: claim or the vision and the ambition of the European Union to become
Gianluca Misuraca: a leader or at least to start
Gianluca Misuraca: racing with the other regions in the world in different areas, including on artificial intelligence,
Gianluca Misuraca: was,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, something also very
Gianluca Misuraca: timely and and
Gianluca Misuraca: and interesting and and concrete because we were not just, you know, studying the future, let's say, but actually providing very concrete
Gianluca Misuraca: input to what could be done
Gianluca Misuraca: already at that time and should be done in order that by 2040,
Gianluca Misuraca: our horizon was
Gianluca Misuraca: 2040,
Gianluca Misuraca: so in twenty years we could actually really make sure that we don't go into those negative scenarios that we have also
depicted just to show what could be the
Gianluca Misuraca: danger of not intervening,
Gianluca Misuraca: for example.
Gianluca Misuraca: And on the other side trying to
Gianluca Misuraca: develop
Gianluca Misuraca: an ideal scenario where we can hope, of course, that,
Gianluca Misuraca: for instance, the maker and the shapers of technology come together in an open and trusted innovation ecosystem, right? Something where
we have open governance, democratic
Gianluca Misuraca: systems are not threatened by technology, and there is more social cohesion. So of course to do that we have to address
Gianluca Misuraca: those main,
Gianluca Misuraca: what we call it in
Gianluca Misuraca: foresight terms, dimensions of impact. So what could actually make this positive
Gianluca Misuraca: scenario happen or actually
Gianluca Misuraca: not become
Gianluca Misuraca: reality
Gianluca Misuraca: and bring us in
Gianluca Misuraca: a negative or
Gianluca Misuraca: a bad scenario,
Gianluca Misuraca: a dark scenario, let's say. And clearly we look already at the time at
Gianluca Misuraca: the landscape of digital transformation.
Gianluca Misuraca: So it's something that it's
Gianluca Misuraca: not only the regulation,
Gianluca Misuraca: of course, but clearly building on the regulatory framework that
Gianluca Misuraca: it's
Gianluca Misuraca: indeed what, for instance, the European Union has
Gianluca Misuraca: been building
Gianluca Misuraca: now for decades, not only the AI Act, everybody knows
Gianluca Misuraca: about the AI Act more or less, but there is
Gianluca Misuraca: a digital governance framework that has been built since many years
Gianluca Misuraca: that has a combination of rules and also incentives,
Gianluca Misuraca: because of course it also requires
Gianluca Misuraca: the need to
Gianluca Misuraca: ensure that we have an ecosystem
Gianluca Misuraca: that allows then those
Gianluca Misuraca: rules to be enforced and make sure that we have
Gianluca Misuraca: a playing level field for all European players
Gianluca Misuraca: and avoid that some
Gianluca Misuraca: players that are clearly not European are actually taking advantage
Gianluca Misuraca: of our
Gianluca Misuraca: economy, our market.
Gianluca Misuraca: And the other element that is very much linked to that is the data sovereignty
Gianluca Misuraca: issue. Basically,
Gianluca Misuraca: we have been discussing
Gianluca Misuraca: about, you know, making
Gianluca Misuraca: ourselves, everybody
Gianluca Misuraca: owner of their own data. The GDPR is all about that. Basically, it's making sure that we can control
Gianluca Misuraca: our
Gianluca Misuraca: data.
Gianluca Misuraca: And
Gianluca Misuraca: this is not necessarily the case. Actually, the current scenario, if you want, status quo, normally you have also a scenario that
is, okay, what if nothing changed? Right? Where are we standing now? Basically it's
Gianluca Misuraca: a scenario that we call it of apartheid and closed innovation.
Gianluca Misuraca: Basically, first of all, all the systems that we have now, most, I mean all of them, despite
Gianluca Misuraca: their claim to be open, in reality they are very much closed. I mean, the Apple, the Googles, I mean, they are
not necessarily interoperable.
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, there has been some advances exactly because of the request by
Gianluca Misuraca: governments and in particular the European Commission, but in reality
Gianluca Misuraca: they
Gianluca Misuraca: tend to, let's say, create their own
Gianluca Misuraca: garden.
Gianluca Misuraca: On the other side,
Gianluca Misuraca: there is also the that we as users
Gianluca Misuraca: are not
Gianluca Misuraca: capable, are not equipped with the
Gianluca Misuraca: tools and the instruments to actually question
Gianluca Misuraca: this status quo. And what we do, in fact, at the end of the day, we tick the boxes of the GDPR.
Gianluca Misuraca: We hope that nothing too bad will happen.
Gianluca Misuraca: So this is exactly where
Gianluca Misuraca: we talk about digital sovereignty. We have to make sure that
Gianluca Misuraca: everybody in principle, in an easy way then, can regain
Gianluca Misuraca: the ownership and the sovereignty of those data. So
Gianluca Misuraca: digital governance
Gianluca Misuraca: and
Gianluca Misuraca: data governance become actually the two key issues that need to be addressed. And if we make it right,
Gianluca Misuraca: we are trying to do, but of course there have been many things happening since
Gianluca Misuraca: we
Gianluca Misuraca: designed this scenario in 2020 until now, then we could have maybe that ideal positive
Gianluca Misuraca: scenario
Gianluca Misuraca: for the future generations.
Alessandro Oppo: And I think this is also related to what you were saying about which
Alessandro Oppo: kind of skill
Alessandro Oppo: should we develop in society also in relation to technology? I mean, AI is the
Alessandro Oppo: main technology. Yes.
Gianluca Misuraca: Is the buzzword
Gianluca Misuraca: or the keyword. I mean, I would say, yes, and indeed this brings me to
Gianluca Misuraca: the projects that I'm actually leading now.
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, once I left the Commission, in fact one of my first proposals was to have
Gianluca Misuraca: a dedicated master on AI for government, AI, artificial intelligence support public services
Gianluca Misuraca: that we designed
Gianluca Misuraca: with colleagues
Gianluca Misuraca: in collaboration between the Universidad Polytech in Madrid and Polytechnico di Milano. I work with both of them. And we had also
other partners from Germany, Estonia.
Gianluca Misuraca: And this master that
Gianluca Misuraca: started in 2021
Gianluca Misuraca: and now is entering its sixth edition
Gianluca Misuraca: is
Gianluca Misuraca: a combination by design
Gianluca Misuraca: of
Gianluca Misuraca: data scientists,
Gianluca Misuraca: AI experts and specialists with design thinkers.
Gianluca Misuraca: So for instance, Politico Milano, I'm associated with the department of
Gianluca Misuraca: design. And the idea there is that we actually,
Gianluca Misuraca: when we want to use,
Gianluca Misuraca: adopt AI
Gianluca Misuraca: in public services, we really need to think carefully
Gianluca Misuraca: the design of the service, the policy,
Gianluca Misuraca: the processes, and
Gianluca Misuraca: even ask ourselves basic questions. Do we really need to use the latest technology, AI? Maybe is there something else that
Gianluca Misuraca: we need to do before maybe investing on certain technology just because it is cool.
Gianluca Misuraca: Clearly generative AI that was then
Gianluca Misuraca: exploded
Gianluca Misuraca: in 2022
Gianluca Misuraca: a bit unexpectedly,
Gianluca Misuraca: although it has been there for a while,
Gianluca Misuraca: it even
Gianluca Misuraca: changed the
Gianluca Misuraca: game and even including,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, further
Gianluca Misuraca: emphasized the importance of this approach. So in design
Gianluca Misuraca: terms,
Gianluca Misuraca: we talk about reframing.
Gianluca Misuraca: We need to reframe the public sector innovation
Gianluca Misuraca: systems because they need to actually embrace the complexity that
Gianluca Misuraca: a digital transformation and especially AI enabled services
Gianluca Misuraca: are bringing to
Gianluca Misuraca: the government, the public sector, but in general to society at large. So master was very successful.
Gianluca Misuraca: Mean, we have been awarded the Digital Skills Award, European Digital Skills Award in 2023,
Gianluca Misuraca: have been
Gianluca Misuraca: also mentioned as a best practice in several UN, OECD and other
Gianluca Misuraca: international organizations,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, reports.
Gianluca Misuraca: But apart from that, it was
Gianluca Misuraca: because at the end of the day we train,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, in average 40
Gianluca Misuraca: people per year, 40% per year. That it's good. We have very good
Gianluca Misuraca: participants.
Gianluca Misuraca: We don't call them
Gianluca Misuraca: students because they are all very
Gianluca Misuraca: experienced
Gianluca Misuraca: professionals
Gianluca Misuraca: and they then end up, maybe many of them ended up working, I don't know, in the AI
Gianluca Misuraca: office or the European Commission or the OECD AI Policy Observatory,
Gianluca Misuraca: just you mentioned UNESCO,
Gianluca Misuraca: or of course in
Gianluca Misuraca: national governments
Gianluca Misuraca: from really, I mean, course from many European countries, but also from, I don't know, from Bhutan, Philippines up to Chile, Argentina,
Gianluca Misuraca: Brazil, so we really cover and Africa as well. So we cover most of the
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, many countries in the world, think about almost 60 different countries in the last five editions,
Gianluca Misuraca: and we are now almost about 200
Gianluca Misuraca: a network of over
Gianluca Misuraca: 200,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, alumni that has been established.
Gianluca Misuraca: And so this was also
Gianluca Misuraca: the inspiration for me for launching a new project. We made a proposal
Gianluca Misuraca: under the Digital Euro programme, and I mean, I call it AI for GOV X, AI for GOV Accelerate,
Gianluca Misuraca: and this is a much larger project. We have over 40 partners and
Gianluca Misuraca: equally 40 associate partners from all over the world, also not only Europe, but we cover all Europe, but we also have
Australia,
Gianluca Misuraca: Korea,
Gianluca Misuraca: many other countries. So what what we are doing here, we are launching right
Gianluca Misuraca: now a new master in a different format.
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, AI for GOV has been crafted in a way that you have to be there
Gianluca Misuraca: virtually. I mean, it's online, but you have to participate real time. So we have classes twice per week. And then there
are a couple of in person events in Madrid and in Milan
Gianluca Misuraca: where people also network because this is very important.
Gianluca Misuraca: And what we have there is a lot of project based learning, experiential learning. So you'd actually work with tools,
Gianluca Misuraca: with data,
Gianluca Misuraca: and you make your own
Gianluca Misuraca: projects
Gianluca Misuraca: and with
Gianluca Misuraca: tutorship by by some experts.
Gianluca Misuraca: And there is also a final thesis that is very much linked to your specific work. This is a invaluable
Gianluca Misuraca: experience we have seen that give
Gianluca Misuraca: is a unique
Gianluca Misuraca: added value of this program. Now, of course, as
Gianluca Misuraca: I say, this is limited to a number of participants that can actually dedicate the time and the resources for that. But
now we have launched I mean, if we want to scale it up, we are making this,
Gianluca Misuraca: on a larger scale with the
Gianluca Misuraca: idea to train 3,000 people in the next three years,
Gianluca Misuraca: both through a new master, a master I call it magics,
Gianluca Misuraca: master in AI, governance innovation and digital transformation.
Gianluca Misuraca: And here we have several specializations,
Gianluca Misuraca: and you can actually
Gianluca Misuraca: make your master
Gianluca Misuraca: almost a la carte, in the sense you can choose certain modules, certain courses,
Gianluca Misuraca: many of them are asynchronous,
Gianluca Misuraca: so not
Gianluca Misuraca: real time or not in person, but there are also opportunities
Gianluca Misuraca: to do
Gianluca Misuraca: summer school, specific courses,
Gianluca Misuraca: and in different languages, not all in English. English remained prominent,
Gianluca Misuraca: of course, but in many cases we have also offers in Italian,
Gianluca Misuraca: in German, in French, in Spanish and so forth. And this is growing as we have the Masters and then we have
a catalogue of, at the moment, we are already getting to about 100 courses, different formats,
Gianluca Misuraca: different universities,
Gianluca Misuraca: different also not
Gianluca Misuraca: necessarily academic institutions,
Gianluca Misuraca: also
Gianluca Misuraca: more practical oriented,
Gianluca Misuraca: for instance, boot camps,
Gianluca Misuraca: and you can choose those.
Gianluca Misuraca: And the good news is that out of the budget of the project, we have quite a large
Gianluca Misuraca: amount of resources for scholarships.
Gianluca Misuraca: So people can actually apply to a program that
Gianluca Misuraca: are already
Gianluca Misuraca: very accessible.
Gianluca Misuraca: And in addition to that, they can get
Gianluca Misuraca: 50%
Gianluca Misuraca: basically of reimbursement
Gianluca Misuraca: through this process of
Gianluca Misuraca: selection. So something I will invite everybody to join because it's
Gianluca Misuraca: really
Gianluca Misuraca: again, the approach is that it's not just listening to someone
Gianluca Misuraca: or studying, but it's really doing things,
Gianluca Misuraca: learning by doing. And you can immediately apply
Gianluca Misuraca: to your own work
Gianluca Misuraca: because that's what we have seen with the participants.
Gianluca Misuraca: We had entire teams coming from
Gianluca Misuraca: certain organizations,
Gianluca Misuraca: and then they were going back to
Gianluca Misuraca: work
Gianluca Misuraca: with
Gianluca Misuraca: some skills that they applied directly.
Gianluca Misuraca: And in
Gianluca Misuraca: addition to that, I mean, this is not yet, let's say, public in the sense that we will start the May 1,
but I have also been
Gianluca Misuraca: appointed the coordinator of the European
Gianluca Misuraca: Union AI Skills Academy. We just won we won this, and this I will be coordinating
Gianluca Misuraca: this was also a call from the European Union, from the European Commission under the Digital Euro program.
Gianluca Misuraca: And
Gianluca Misuraca: we'll be working directly
Gianluca Misuraca: through
Gianluca Misuraca: with
Gianluca Misuraca: the AI office also because they have a lot of interest.
Gianluca Misuraca: As you know, there is an important element
Gianluca Misuraca: of AI literacy also in the AI Act, for example, that need to be addressed.
Gianluca Misuraca: And this I will do directly as a coordinator with my own company, Inspiring Futures Europe. So it's an additional,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say,
Gianluca Misuraca: honor, but also
Gianluca Misuraca: responsibility.
Alessandro Oppo: Yeah.
Alessandro Oppo: A lot of things. I
Alessandro Oppo: was, thinking about the transition to digital.
Alessandro Oppo: I mean,
Alessandro Oppo: the digital transition also regarding the public administration
Alessandro Oppo: and and also
Alessandro Oppo: relation to governance.
Alessandro Oppo: And,
Alessandro Oppo: I mean, I know that this is already happening,
Alessandro Oppo: sometimes in a
Alessandro Oppo: informal way, sometimes in a more structured way.
Alessandro Oppo: And I wonder, like, if you have a sort of possible timeline
Alessandro Oppo: that,
Alessandro Oppo: I know that is not,
Alessandro Oppo: that cannot be very precise, but.
Gianluca Misuraca: Well,
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, no, let me because this brings me to another I mean,
Gianluca Misuraca: definitely my last scenario
Gianluca Misuraca: that last year I presented
Gianluca Misuraca: we made a foresight exercise
Gianluca Misuraca: for the
Gianluca Misuraca: for the commission on Govtech.
Gianluca Misuraca: And of course they
Gianluca Misuraca: wanted to have something
Gianluca Misuraca: this is happening, right?
Gianluca Misuraca: You see a transition, as you mentioned, is something, you have a state and then you have another state, right? So you
move from one state and transitioning to another state.
Gianluca Misuraca: Now, when it comes
Gianluca Misuraca: to, to digital transformation,
Gianluca Misuraca: digital government, this is not actually
Gianluca Misuraca: so, at least it's not, so easy. I mean,
Gianluca Misuraca: I've been looking at this phenomenon since
Gianluca Misuraca: even before it was called e government in the nineties, informatization
Gianluca Misuraca: in the public sector, in public administration.
Gianluca Misuraca: And of course, again, as I said before, a lot has been done, especially in some countries. I mean, if we look
at Europe, I mean, we have a lot of digital services.
Gianluca Misuraca: We cannot
Gianluca Misuraca: say that nothing happened. But it is true that we, at the time, twenty years ago, we were hoping for this to
be quite more radical
Gianluca Misuraca: and quick.
Gianluca Misuraca: So there's still a lot to be done.
Gianluca Misuraca: And also because there's been some,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, I don't know, mistake or
Gianluca Misuraca: something that does not really
Gianluca Misuraca: been done is the, the, the change that we wanted to, to, I mean, that, that should be done with these technologies
sometimes is, makes also
Gianluca Misuraca: a bit of fear. No? There is some fear of change. There is a resistance to change. There is the part dependency
of the organisations that, I mean, that it's very difficult to change the cultural mindset and the rules,
Gianluca Misuraca: the skills, in fact, and then, of course,
Gianluca Misuraca: the incentives
Gianluca Misuraca: for people to really
Gianluca Misuraca: make this transformation.
Gianluca Misuraca: Now in the last
Gianluca Misuraca: this work we've done on the GovTech, so I choose to look at the horizon 2050
Gianluca Misuraca: because
Gianluca Misuraca: I think we have to go a bit farther in the
Gianluca Misuraca: of course, then we came
Gianluca Misuraca: back. We do what we call the backcasting.
Gianluca Misuraca: Right? Backcasting
Gianluca Misuraca: means we look at the long term scenario,
Gianluca Misuraca: then we come back to to
Gianluca Misuraca: what we have to do today to in order that this scenario will actually
Gianluca Misuraca: be possibly
Gianluca Misuraca: achieved.
Gianluca Misuraca: Although of course we all know that the future will be a combination of different scenarios. But in this case,
Gianluca Misuraca: apart from the various,
Gianluca Misuraca: the name we gave to the various scenarios
Gianluca Misuraca: of the
Gianluca Misuraca: non
Gianluca Misuraca: positive ones, a chameleon
Gianluca Misuraca: gov tech or
Gianluca Misuraca: the fact that we could be
Gianluca Misuraca: also ending up in mon GovTech.
Gianluca Misuraca: That's what there was,
Gianluca Misuraca: collaborative
Gianluca Misuraca: work we have done. We co designed these scenarios with experts and
Gianluca Misuraca: practitioners and different stakeholders, and of course I ensured
Gianluca Misuraca: that
Gianluca Misuraca: also younger people participated
Gianluca Misuraca: and contributed because sometimes we have the experts and we are all
Gianluca Misuraca: getting to a certain age.
Gianluca Misuraca: And one of these younger
Gianluca Misuraca: experts,
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean participants,
Gianluca Misuraca: told me, But
Gianluca Misuraca: why is 2050?
Gianluca Misuraca: So maybe and the roadmap that we had then
Gianluca Misuraca: co developed,
Gianluca Misuraca: say maybe there are things that we could already do before and why?
Gianluca Misuraca: So I mean, there was a bit of an interesting discussion. But then at the end of the day, if we look
at certain
Gianluca Misuraca: prerequisite,
Gianluca Misuraca: I would even say, for this transition, this transformation to happen, we are not yet necessarily there. For example, one of the
key
Gianluca Misuraca: dimension of impact in this case,
Gianluca Misuraca: we choose interoperability.
Gianluca Misuraca: And it's okay, interoperability
Gianluca Misuraca: is very easy. Right?
Gianluca Misuraca: But in reality,
Gianluca Misuraca: if we look at the case of Europe, we don't have yet such interoperability
Gianluca Misuraca: so
Gianluca Misuraca: well done in the public sector,
Gianluca Misuraca: well, maybe not even in the private sector.
Gianluca Misuraca: Basically
Gianluca Misuraca: we had to make a regulation, a proposal of regulation in Europe
Gianluca Misuraca: that entered into force
Gianluca Misuraca: last year, and now
Gianluca Misuraca: it takes some time hopefully to get to full speed. So we have to take this, but we have to make sure
that
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, have been talking about interoperability
Gianluca Misuraca: for
Gianluca Misuraca: forty years maybe,
Gianluca Misuraca: and now it's really time to make this happen. And this is not a technical issue. Technical is pretty simple.
Gianluca Misuraca: It's more a
Gianluca Misuraca: political one, a political decision,
Gianluca Misuraca: is a legal
Gianluca Misuraca: and also semantic,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say,
Gianluca Misuraca: aspects that need to be addressed. So we basically have to make sure that we speak the same language.
Gianluca Misuraca: And when I say when there are some exchanges of information,
Gianluca Misuraca: we recognize immediately, the system recognizes immediately,
Gianluca Misuraca: and they can be put then at disposal of different organization,
Gianluca Misuraca: etcetera.
Gianluca Misuraca: And the other element where we are still,
Gianluca Misuraca: despite we have been talking about this for many years, lacking behind
Gianluca Misuraca: is the public procurement.
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, innovation in public procurement,
Gianluca Misuraca: has been there, and there are mechanisms for doing it, but it's not much, used. I mean, we still
Gianluca Misuraca: buy technology like we are buying, I don't know, bread
Gianluca Misuraca: in the grocery
Gianluca Misuraca: or by kilograms,
Gianluca Misuraca: or we buy technologies
Gianluca Misuraca: like they are chairs and tables.
Gianluca Misuraca: Actually the
Gianluca Misuraca: old digital technology,
Gianluca Misuraca: but especially artificial intelligence,
Gianluca Misuraca: are dynamic.
Gianluca Misuraca: So we really need to make sure that when we procure something, first of all, we understand
Gianluca Misuraca: what we need,
Gianluca Misuraca: and that's why it's important, so important to have the skills and the capacity, the competencies to understand
Gianluca Misuraca: this. And on the other side,
Gianluca Misuraca: we have to also ensure that there is a
Gianluca Misuraca: continuing process of maintenance
Gianluca Misuraca: and accompanying this. So
Gianluca Misuraca: institutions
Gianluca Misuraca: and
Gianluca Misuraca: technologies
Gianluca Misuraca: are actually
Gianluca Misuraca: co evolving,
Gianluca Misuraca: and so we have to make sure that we have the correct governance systems to make this happen.
Alessandro Oppo: I was wondering what could be like the role of a citizen
Alessandro Oppo: that maybe
Gianluca Misuraca: Well, I mean,
Gianluca Misuraca: this has been for
Gianluca Misuraca: some time a bit
Gianluca Misuraca: maybe exaggerated
Gianluca Misuraca: in the sense, okay, we need to have the citizen participation,
Gianluca Misuraca: you know, the first movement of e democracy participation
Gianluca Misuraca: because everybody wants to participate.
Gianluca Misuraca: Well, maybe it's not so
Gianluca Misuraca: needed because
Gianluca Misuraca: at the end of the day who wants to participate?
Gianluca Misuraca: It's probably a limited
Gianluca Misuraca: part of society
Gianluca Misuraca: or, I mean, participate actively, of course, because then you always have some way of participating.
Gianluca Misuraca: But most importantly, the citizens,
Gianluca Misuraca: users in general, they want to be served in a way that they don't even
Gianluca Misuraca: notice or they don't need I mean, they can do anything.
Gianluca Misuraca: So I mean, the thing the service comes to you is even better. And the technologies today would allow that. I mean,
AI can personalise,
Gianluca Misuraca: customise
Gianluca Misuraca: the solutions for each of us. Of course, these are also some risks that we have to to to to to manage
and mitigate.
Gianluca Misuraca: But in
Gianluca Misuraca: general, we
Gianluca Misuraca: could
Gianluca Misuraca: actually listen from the citizens without actually asking them what they really want or need.
Gianluca Misuraca: And
Gianluca Misuraca: but on the other side, the current
Gianluca Misuraca: systems of stakeholders'
Gianluca Misuraca: consultations or
Gianluca Misuraca: participation
Gianluca Misuraca: are very are very, let's say,
Gianluca Misuraca: limited.
Gianluca Misuraca: So we definitely can do more. And again, technologies can allow for these,
Gianluca Misuraca: for these,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, increased participation,
Gianluca Misuraca: strengthening the the
Gianluca Misuraca: democratic
Gianluca Misuraca: participation.
Gianluca Misuraca: So we have a
Gianluca Misuraca: project
Gianluca Misuraca: called Orbis that was exactly trying with the Polytech in Milano leading it, that was
Gianluca Misuraca: trying to build
Gianluca Misuraca: experiment with different party platforms
Gianluca Misuraca: exactly that could
Gianluca Misuraca: increase
Gianluca Misuraca: the deliberation
Gianluca Misuraca: process of of the democratic systems. There's been quite interesting results.
Gianluca Misuraca: One of them in particular is using
Gianluca Misuraca: POLIS, for example. POLIS is
Gianluca Misuraca: a platform, open source, by the way, that
Gianluca Misuraca: has
Gianluca Misuraca: been used in several countries.
Gianluca Misuraca: It was started, I think, in Taiwan,
Gianluca Misuraca: and to to really ensure the citizens'
Gianluca Misuraca: participation,
Gianluca Misuraca: user,
Gianluca Misuraca: discussion.
Gianluca Misuraca: And this is now being adapted for different format in, in the experiment. So there are some
Gianluca Misuraca: opportunities
Gianluca Misuraca: there,
Gianluca Misuraca: but still probably we need more.
Gianluca Misuraca: There are also other
Gianluca Misuraca: initiatives.
Gianluca Misuraca: I'm, for example, involved in one at European level,
Gianluca Misuraca: humans, for example. They are launching some citizens'
Gianluca Misuraca: initiatives
Gianluca Misuraca: that could allow for participation
Gianluca Misuraca: of citizens
Gianluca Misuraca: in a different format using what is already available, because there are forms of participation
Gianluca Misuraca: like referendum
Gianluca Misuraca: or citizen initiative
Gianluca Misuraca: can be done. And technology can help in that case or could help actually increase the
Gianluca Misuraca: possibility, for instance, to
Gianluca Misuraca: gain
Gianluca Misuraca: support
Gianluca Misuraca: or
Gianluca Misuraca: to sign petitions,
Gianluca Misuraca: for example. So this is something where,
Gianluca Misuraca: I guess, we should do much more,
Gianluca Misuraca: and and probably that that would be something that parliaments in particular
Gianluca Misuraca: could do.
Alessandro Oppo: We had a small technical issue because part of the recording was lost, and that's why we are dressed in a different
way.
Alessandro Oppo: And, also,
Alessandro Oppo: in relation to this
Alessandro Oppo: technical problem, I I was thinking
Alessandro Oppo: when
Alessandro Oppo: our society will rely more even more on
Alessandro Oppo: technology
Alessandro Oppo: in relation to, I don't know, the public administration
Alessandro Oppo: or or our political system,
Alessandro Oppo: What could be
Alessandro Oppo: the problem when,
Alessandro Oppo: I mean, the technology doesn't work because most of the time it works?
Alessandro Oppo: And
Alessandro Oppo: also what could be some
Alessandro Oppo: maybe good practices to avoid this kind of problem?
Gianluca Misuraca: Well, thanks, Alessandro, for the question.
Gianluca Misuraca: Indeed, due
Gianluca Misuraca: to this
Gianluca Misuraca: technical issue,
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, basically,
Gianluca Misuraca: this conversation
Gianluca Misuraca: is split into two.
Gianluca Misuraca: Last time, about three months ago, were addressing
Gianluca Misuraca: some of these topics and I mean three months ago, maybe
Gianluca Misuraca: a little time, but actually in this field
Gianluca Misuraca: it's a long period because a lot of things happened in the last few months and clearly we see how
Gianluca Misuraca: every day, I mean today I was in an event
Gianluca Misuraca: and someone mentioned that there are like 15 events per day on artificial intelligence
Gianluca Misuraca: and
Gianluca Misuraca: the topic is discussed
Gianluca Misuraca: in
Gianluca Misuraca: all
Gianluca Misuraca: environments.
Gianluca Misuraca: Of course in the public administration it is particularly relevant because
Gianluca Misuraca: this small
Gianluca Misuraca: glitch we had
Gianluca Misuraca: shouldn't happen in
Gianluca Misuraca: the public sector because we should be somehow in control and make sure that we use the technology
Gianluca Misuraca: to support and
Gianluca Misuraca: eventually augment our capacities as civil servants, as policymakers,
Gianluca Misuraca: as workers in general, and not just be instead
Gianluca Misuraca: managed
Gianluca Misuraca: by the technology. This is a big issue that the
Gianluca Misuraca: new
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, generation of artificial intelligence
Gianluca Misuraca: now we are moving, you know, the agentic AI that in the last really
Gianluca Misuraca: few months was the
Gianluca Misuraca: keyword now
Gianluca Misuraca: is fading away and there is the physical AI
Gianluca Misuraca: topic and somehow this multi agent
Gianluca Misuraca: orchestration
Gianluca Misuraca: is what is taking place in many
Gianluca Misuraca: areas. And of course there are huge opportunities,
Gianluca Misuraca: this is clear, but there are also some
Gianluca Misuraca: possible
Gianluca Misuraca: threats
Gianluca Misuraca: and that's why indeed we need to reinforce our capacities as managers,
Gianluca Misuraca: as
Gianluca Misuraca: policymakers,
Gianluca Misuraca: as leaders to
Gianluca Misuraca: ensure that we have
Gianluca Misuraca: a governance system that allows us to take the decisions
Gianluca Misuraca: supported
Gianluca Misuraca: by these AI systems but also making sure that we are, as I said before, in control. That's why so when we
talked three months ago I was
Gianluca Misuraca: announcing that we
Gianluca Misuraca: just
Gianluca Misuraca: were about to start a
Gianluca Misuraca: new initiative that I had the pleasure to
Gianluca Misuraca: lead the AI Skills Academy,
Gianluca Misuraca: the project I call AISHA,
Gianluca Misuraca: because then we are building the hub where we are addressing, we are gathering together all those actors that are
Gianluca Misuraca: these important
Gianluca Misuraca: issues in how we build capacity,
Gianluca Misuraca: skills for the future generation.
Gianluca Misuraca: And this is a very
Gianluca Misuraca: important topic that the European Commission
Gianluca Misuraca: and all Member States are putting
Gianluca Misuraca: a lot of emphasis on because
Gianluca Misuraca: of course without the skills
Gianluca Misuraca: for the future we will not be able to
Gianluca Misuraca: manage and govern these
Gianluca Misuraca: new phenomenon.
Gianluca Misuraca: And also we need to ensure that we are competitive in all sectors,
Gianluca Misuraca: so
Gianluca Misuraca: making sure that once
Gianluca Misuraca: we embrace this technology
Gianluca Misuraca: we are actually
Gianluca Misuraca: capable of making the best of it. So this applies to all the sectors from agri food to manufacturing,
Gianluca Misuraca: transport,
Gianluca Misuraca: etc. But it's particularly important for the public
Gianluca Misuraca: sector because there we have multiple
Gianluca Misuraca: roles,
Gianluca Misuraca: not only to make the rules
Gianluca Misuraca: but also to use these technologies.
Gianluca Misuraca: Public sector is,
Gianluca Misuraca: in most countries,
Gianluca Misuraca: one of the biggest
Gianluca Misuraca: procurers of
Gianluca Misuraca: technology and artificial intelligence. And so we have to make sure also that
Gianluca Misuraca: we build a sovereign system.
Gianluca Misuraca: We are not just
Gianluca Misuraca: relying on,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, systems that can control
Gianluca Misuraca: our data and also we are not then
Gianluca Misuraca: independent
Gianluca Misuraca: from certain actors that in most cases unfortunately are not European. So also how the data are used, how we make sure
that also
Gianluca Misuraca: open source system, for instance,
Gianluca Misuraca: can be
Gianluca Misuraca: leveraged.
Alessandro Oppo: Yeah, last time I asked you,
Alessandro Oppo: what do you think about political parties that use
Alessandro Oppo: a platform to connect citizens
Alessandro Oppo: to
Alessandro Oppo: to the people that are elected?
Alessandro Oppo: So I was thinking about the Five Star Movement
Alessandro Oppo: example.
Alessandro Oppo: And if you think that this is
Alessandro Oppo: will happen again.
Gianluca Misuraca: Well, let me I mean, this is timely because exactly this morning in this event I met
Gianluca Misuraca: a former member of the government during
Gianluca Misuraca: one of the governments where the Five Star Movement in Italy was in charge
Gianluca Misuraca: and also a journalist.
Gianluca Misuraca: And we were talking about the fact that probably in the future,
Gianluca Misuraca: you know,
Gianluca Misuraca: some politician,
Gianluca Misuraca: some party may emerge that is actually against AI, right? And maybe they
Gianluca Misuraca: could, let's say, leverage this fear that could happen
Gianluca Misuraca: to get
Gianluca Misuraca: a lot of votes
Gianluca Misuraca: because it's true that artificial intelligence
Gianluca Misuraca: can
Gianluca Misuraca: and is disrupting our society for the good and for the bad, but also is going to have a huge impact on
the work.
Gianluca Misuraca: And I'll be back on this. But I mean, I don't know if I mentioned last time, but in, I mean, almost
twenty years ago, more than, yeah, twenty years ago when I was
Gianluca Misuraca: studying what
Gianluca Misuraca: we called at the time social computing, Web 2.0,
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, basically the emergence of social media,
Gianluca Misuraca: We were doing I was at the time working
Gianluca Misuraca: in academia, called Politecnico delle Lausanne, but then I joined the European Commission, the Joint Research Centre Institute for
Gianluca Misuraca: Prospective
Gianluca Misuraca: Technological Studies. So we were looking at the future of technology, future impacts of technology. And we did a
Gianluca Misuraca: comprehensive study on the impact of
Gianluca Misuraca: social
Gianluca Misuraca: media technology,
Gianluca Misuraca: social networks
Gianluca Misuraca: on society. I was looking in particular
Gianluca Misuraca: at the use of social media, I don't know, by Obama. I remember Obama was one of the first
Gianluca Misuraca: making a campaign using
Gianluca Misuraca: Facebook and other social media. And then of course the phenomenon of the Five Star Movement in Italy was just emerging.
Gianluca Misuraca: And of course the Russo platform
Gianluca Misuraca: that has been also studied and looked in
Gianluca Misuraca: a critical way by many was potentially
Gianluca Misuraca: a very good instrument at the time because it could have, if genuinely,
Gianluca Misuraca: the possibility to reach
Gianluca Misuraca: out to different groups in society. And to a certain extent he did at the very beginning in order to make sure
that anyone
Gianluca Misuraca: could contribute.
Gianluca Misuraca: Then maybe an
Gianluca Misuraca: opportunity to discuss in an event where there was one on the, I mean, son of Casaleggio
Gianluca Misuraca: discussing also this topic
Gianluca Misuraca: that
Gianluca Misuraca: maybe at a certain point the
Gianluca Misuraca: human,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say,
Gianluca Misuraca: maybe I don't know how to say, but
Gianluca Misuraca: the fact that humans then manipulated
Gianluca Misuraca: these platforms and made this maybe become not such a good instrument.
Gianluca Misuraca: But this doesn't mean that technology cannot be, if
Gianluca Misuraca: well
Gianluca Misuraca: structured,
Gianluca Misuraca: a good support for increasing citizen participation
Gianluca Misuraca: and democratic
Gianluca Misuraca: participation
Gianluca Misuraca: to support a deliberative democracy.
Gianluca Misuraca: I mean, as we know today is not the perfect instrument, this has been said by much more important people than me.
I think Churchill say that is the less
Gianluca Misuraca: worst of the
Gianluca Misuraca: systems that we have, but it's still the one that could be improved and indeed there has been an attempt and researchers
Gianluca Misuraca: are also part of a project led by
Gianluca Misuraca: Politecchiuti Milan on the use of
Gianluca Misuraca: AI systems to improve the
Gianluca Misuraca: deliberation
Gianluca Misuraca: part of the democratic participation.
Gianluca Misuraca: Clearly, we could use technologies to increase our evidence and make sure that we use data
Gianluca Misuraca: in a certain
Gianluca Misuraca: way.
Gianluca Misuraca: Clearly also social media could be used to gather feedback, perception, sentiments
Gianluca Misuraca: from citizens.
Gianluca Misuraca: Are they used? I wouldn't say that we have
Gianluca Misuraca: advanced much from probably what we hoped it could have been done maybe
Gianluca Misuraca: twenty years ago.
Gianluca Misuraca: On the other side, unfortunately,
Gianluca Misuraca: has been a lot of misuse of technologies
Gianluca Misuraca: actually for increasing disinformation,
Gianluca Misuraca: for
Gianluca Misuraca: making polarisation
Gianluca Misuraca: actually
Gianluca Misuraca: by design somehow,
Gianluca Misuraca: because we see now that many platforms are using,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say, systems to increase the
Gianluca Misuraca: negative and the opposite
Gianluca Misuraca: discussion.
Gianluca Misuraca: And this of course is creating tensions,
Gianluca Misuraca: is making our society even more fragmented
Gianluca Misuraca: in the virtual world but then also in
Gianluca Misuraca: the real world. So clearly this is where also
Gianluca Misuraca: the European Union in particular, but in general at the global level there is
Gianluca Misuraca: an attempt to regulate
Gianluca Misuraca: also on this and now there are discussions,
Gianluca Misuraca: for instance, under the Digital Service Act or the Digital Market Act in the European Union, but also some countries are proposing,
for instance, to limit the use of certain
Gianluca Misuraca: social media etc.
Gianluca Misuraca: Artificial intelligence is of course and generative AI in particular playing a big role there and because it can be really used
as a weapon. And unfortunately it is used especially during political
Gianluca Misuraca: campaigns.
Gianluca Misuraca: That's why it's welcome,
Gianluca Misuraca: for instance, in Italy there has been an agreement, okay, it's not a big issue by political parties
Gianluca Misuraca: not to use certain features
Gianluca Misuraca: like
Gianluca Misuraca: the deep fake
Gianluca Misuraca: during
Gianluca Misuraca: the electoral campaigns.
Gianluca Misuraca: And clearly this is an area that
Gianluca Misuraca: will require also more experimentation
Gianluca Misuraca: because I think the behaviours of citizens
Gianluca Misuraca: is very much affected by
Gianluca Misuraca: certain technologies.
Gianluca Misuraca: So
Gianluca Misuraca: on one side we need to probably limit
Gianluca Misuraca: certain uses, but on the other side we should experiment and see what actually could be a good way of using these
technologies.
Alessandro Oppo: And
Alessandro Oppo: for the last question is, do you have any message for
Alessandro Oppo: all the people
Alessandro Oppo: that are working, I don't know, in digital transformation,
Alessandro Oppo: political tech
Alessandro Oppo: in general?
Gianluca Misuraca: Well, I mean, of course, I'm biased, but
Gianluca Misuraca: clearly the most important thing is
Gianluca Misuraca: that to reinforce our
Gianluca Misuraca: capacities,
Gianluca Misuraca: our skills, because we are
Gianluca Misuraca: in a situation where we are at risk and when I say we, all of us, of course the younger
Gianluca Misuraca: generation more
Gianluca Misuraca: because of course they are those that will
Gianluca Misuraca: also use this technology more, are born
Gianluca Misuraca: with these technologies and they will be the leader
Gianluca Misuraca: of tomorrow.
Gianluca Misuraca: So we
Gianluca Misuraca: are at risk of a cognitive,
Gianluca Misuraca: let's say,
Gianluca Misuraca: degeneration.
Gianluca Misuraca: So these technologies are potentially
Gianluca Misuraca: producing and there are now studies coming up that have
Gianluca Misuraca: some negative effect on our cognitive capacity. So that's one area where we have to be
Gianluca Misuraca: careful in how we
Gianluca Misuraca: use these technologies. That's why we have to
Gianluca Misuraca: make sure that we are also ready for embracing the complexity
Gianluca Misuraca: that this technology has. And this is not only at the individual level because of course we can be super
Gianluca Misuraca: expert
Gianluca Misuraca: but it's more at the organisational level and broadly speaking at the social level that we need to make sure that we
have
Gianluca Misuraca: the capacities,
Gianluca Misuraca: the competencies and the skills for managing this
Gianluca Misuraca: phenomenon. We are really in an unexplored
Gianluca Misuraca: territory
Gianluca Misuraca: so it's all new and we know some of the known unknowns, but we don't know much of the unknown unknowns that
are those that could be the most
Gianluca Misuraca: dangerous,
Gianluca Misuraca: but also those
Gianluca Misuraca: that could create a more
Gianluca Misuraca: interesting and inspiring
Gianluca Misuraca: futures for us all and for the next generations.
Alessandro Oppo: Thank you a lot Gianluca and hopefully this time the recording will
Alessandro Oppo: be saved.
Gianluca Misuraca: So and thanks a lot and I'm happy to maybe have another conversation
Gianluca Misuraca: in another three months, but
Gianluca Misuraca: hopefully they help it.
Alessandro Oppo: Absolutely, thank you again.