1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,280 Alessandro Oppo: Selecting your 2 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,720 Alessandro Oppo: officials by lottery is democratic and selecting them by election 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:08,240 Alessandro Oppo: is oligarchic. 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,600 Alessandro Oppo: The founders of The United States did not want a democracy. 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:12,720 Alessandro Oppo: They were very, 6 00:00:13,645 --> 00:00:19,565 Alessandro Oppo: very open that they feared democracy. I've had a lot of experience with politicians 7 00:00:20,125 --> 00:00:21,725 Alessandro Oppo: where as a politician, 8 00:00:21,885 --> 00:00:23,245 Alessandro Oppo: a bill would come forward 9 00:00:23,645 --> 00:00:26,925 Alessandro Oppo: from the other other other parties. My first 10 00:00:27,270 --> 00:00:30,710 Alessandro Oppo: instinct as a politician, my goal was to find 11 00:00:30,950 --> 00:00:37,477 Alessandro Oppo: what was bad and horrible about it so I could attack them. Let's see what we can where we have common ground 12 00:00:37,477 --> 00:00:44,005 here and how we can we can craft this and add other things to make it so that we all agree on 13 00:00:44,005 --> 00:00:49,345 it. That was of no interest to the politicians. Welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator podcast. 14 00:00:49,425 --> 00:00:53,345 Terry Bouricious: My name is Alessandro Popp, and, our guest of today is Terry Borishos. 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,200 Terry Bouricious: Thank you for your time and for being here. Glad to be here. 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:00:58,880 Terry Bouricious: And, 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,600 Terry Bouricious: I mean, the first question is, would you like to say something about you, your experience? 18 00:01:06,745 --> 00:01:08,985 Alessandro Oppo: My work on democracy reform 19 00:01:08,985 --> 00:01:10,185 Alessandro Oppo: came in a 20 00:01:10,665 --> 00:01:11,465 Alessandro Oppo: nonstandard 21 00:01:11,465 --> 00:01:17,772 Alessandro Oppo: way. I'm not an academic, although I've written a lot of journal articles and and books and so on. But I was 22 00:01:17,772 --> 00:01:18,572 a politician. 23 00:01:18,745 --> 00:01:23,010 Alessandro Oppo: For twenty years. I was a lawmaker in The United States, in Vermont. 24 00:01:23,170 --> 00:01:26,930 Alessandro Oppo: In fact, I was elected along with Bernie Sanders, who some people will know of, 25 00:01:27,730 --> 00:01:29,970 Alessandro Oppo: to city government in 1981, 26 00:01:30,130 --> 00:01:36,235 Alessandro Oppo: served ten years in the city council, then got elected to the state legislature, served another ten years as a legislator. 27 00:01:36,875 --> 00:01:37,995 Alessandro Oppo: And I 28 00:01:38,715 --> 00:01:45,693 Alessandro Oppo: realized that my elected legislative bodies, they were not very representative of the population in a lot of ways. They were sort 29 00:01:45,693 --> 00:01:52,671 of off the mark. And so after I left elected politics, I went to work for an organization called FairVote, the center 30 00:01:52,671 --> 00:01:53,940 for voting and democracy 31 00:01:54,020 --> 00:01:59,940 Alessandro Oppo: that worked on election reform, to do things like get The United States to adopt proportional representation, 32 00:01:59,940 --> 00:02:01,220 Alessandro Oppo: ranked choice voting, 33 00:02:01,380 --> 00:02:02,420 Alessandro Oppo: other kinds of reforms. 34 00:02:03,515 --> 00:02:05,435 Alessandro Oppo: And in that role, 35 00:02:05,755 --> 00:02:07,115 Alessandro Oppo: I did it internationally, 36 00:02:07,115 --> 00:02:10,715 Alessandro Oppo: but mostly in The United States. In that role, I was invited 37 00:02:11,115 --> 00:02:13,515 Alessandro Oppo: to give testimony to the 38 00:02:14,075 --> 00:02:16,635 Alessandro Oppo: British Columbia Citizens Assembly in Canada. 39 00:02:17,370 --> 00:02:24,027 Alessandro Oppo: They had been charged by the legislature to devise a new voting system for the province because they were having just ridiculous 40 00:02:24,027 --> 00:02:24,827 outcomes, 41 00:02:24,970 --> 00:02:28,090 Alessandro Oppo: just wild swings in party control and so on. 42 00:02:28,650 --> 00:02:29,450 Alessandro Oppo: And 43 00:02:29,735 --> 00:02:33,655 Alessandro Oppo: I I obviously recommend they use a a proportional representation system. 44 00:02:33,975 --> 00:02:35,495 Alessandro Oppo: But this 45 00:02:35,495 --> 00:02:37,735 Alessandro Oppo: body, it was selected 46 00:02:37,975 --> 00:02:39,655 Alessandro Oppo: by random lottery. 47 00:02:39,735 --> 00:02:40,855 Alessandro Oppo: No politicians. 48 00:02:40,855 --> 00:02:46,350 Alessandro Oppo: It was one man, one woman from each legislative district, a 160 people in all. And 49 00:02:46,510 --> 00:02:47,310 Alessandro Oppo: they 50 00:02:47,870 --> 00:02:50,270 Alessandro Oppo: a light bulb went off over my head that this 51 00:02:50,750 --> 00:02:54,430 Alessandro Oppo: is what democracy looks like. They they had no hidden agendas. 52 00:02:54,510 --> 00:03:02,975 Alessandro Oppo: They had no campaign donors to satisfy. They weren't trying to smear each other for the next election. They were just learning 53 00:03:03,055 --> 00:03:09,177 Alessandro Oppo: and doing the work. And they became more competent than any elected legislature I know of on the issue they were dealing 54 00:03:09,177 --> 00:03:09,977 with. 55 00:03:09,855 --> 00:03:11,775 Alessandro Oppo: And that was in 2004. 56 00:03:12,335 --> 00:03:19,949 Alessandro Oppo: And so ever since then, the focus of my political reform work has been on what's called sortition, use of random lottery 57 00:03:19,949 --> 00:03:21,680 selection to form democratic bodies. 58 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:27,079 Alessandro Oppo: And so that's how I got here, and I've been working on it for a long time now. And I just recently 59 00:03:27,079 --> 00:03:28,160 have also published a book. 60 00:03:29,825 --> 00:03:32,065 Terry Bouricious: Yeah. Exactly. That was my 61 00:03:32,065 --> 00:03:34,305 Terry Bouricious: question about the book. So 62 00:03:34,945 --> 00:03:36,225 Terry Bouricious: politician without democrat 63 00:03:36,705 --> 00:03:38,785 Terry Bouricious: I mean, democracy without politicians. 64 00:03:38,945 --> 00:03:39,745 Alessandro Oppo: Yes. 65 00:03:40,385 --> 00:03:42,945 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. The the book the book, 66 00:03:43,105 --> 00:03:44,385 Alessandro Oppo: the title is 67 00:03:45,030 --> 00:03:45,910 Alessandro Oppo: Democracy 68 00:03:45,910 --> 00:03:47,270 Alessandro Oppo: Without Politicians: 69 00:03:48,070 --> 00:03:49,590 Alessandro Oppo: Government by the People. 70 00:03:49,830 --> 00:03:52,390 Alessandro Oppo: And the basic theme is that 71 00:03:53,350 --> 00:03:57,830 Alessandro Oppo: elections are inherently problematic and they're not very democratic. They are 72 00:03:58,445 --> 00:03:59,805 Alessandro Oppo: they are oligarchic. 73 00:03:59,805 --> 00:04:01,725 Alessandro Oppo: In fact, Aristotle, 74 00:04:01,965 --> 00:04:03,485 Alessandro Oppo: talking about the Greek 75 00:04:03,485 --> 00:04:06,125 Alessandro Oppo: systems throughout ancient Greece, said that 76 00:04:06,445 --> 00:04:07,725 Alessandro Oppo: selecting your 77 00:04:08,045 --> 00:04:10,045 Alessandro Oppo: officials by lottery 78 00:04:10,045 --> 00:04:11,325 Alessandro Oppo: is democratic, 79 00:04:11,325 --> 00:04:13,085 Alessandro Oppo: and selecting them by election 80 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:14,800 Alessandro Oppo: is oligarchic. 81 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,400 Alessandro Oppo: And that was understood for thousands of years that elections, 82 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:24,720 Alessandro Oppo: because of the principle of distinction and so on, it will naturally select people who are different. 83 00:04:25,775 --> 00:04:28,335 Alessandro Oppo: The idea was Aristocracy, 84 00:04:28,335 --> 00:04:34,788 Alessandro Oppo: they'd be better than, but looking at my raft of politicians, I I wouldn't say they're better than, but they are different 85 00:04:34,788 --> 00:04:38,015 than the population. They're they're an elite. That it's an oligarchy. 86 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,120 Terry Bouricious: Yeah, this is very interesting. I also remember like when 87 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:50,160 Terry Bouricious: a few people have the power, they can be an aristocracy if they are the best of the people or oligarchy. 88 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:51,760 Terry Bouricious: So if they are just few people, 89 00:04:52,325 --> 00:04:56,325 Terry Bouricious: but it's very interesting how the concept changed during time. Yeah. It's amazing 90 00:04:56,885 --> 00:04:57,765 Alessandro Oppo: that for 91 00:04:58,245 --> 00:04:59,525 Alessandro Oppo: thousands of years, 92 00:04:59,845 --> 00:05:03,685 Alessandro Oppo: it was understood that democracy required the use of lottery selection 93 00:05:04,085 --> 00:05:08,810 Alessandro Oppo: as a fair way of getting a diverse group of people who were representative of the of the people 94 00:05:09,210 --> 00:05:12,970 Alessandro Oppo: and that elections were the natural tool of an aristocracy. 95 00:05:13,370 --> 00:05:19,130 Alessandro Oppo: And so when The United States was leaving great the Great Britain empire, 96 00:05:20,330 --> 00:05:21,450 Alessandro Oppo: the founders 97 00:05:22,215 --> 00:05:28,055 Alessandro Oppo: nowadays, people say, well, democracy means elections, but that wasn't what they thought. They thought 98 00:05:28,455 --> 00:05:34,814 Alessandro Oppo: elections were the proper tool for an aristocracy. And the stunning thing a lot of people don't realize is they the founders 99 00:05:34,814 --> 00:05:37,415 of The United States did not want a democracy. 100 00:05:38,090 --> 00:05:39,210 Alessandro Oppo: They were very, 101 00:05:39,450 --> 00:05:40,250 Alessandro Oppo: very 102 00:05:40,250 --> 00:05:42,650 Alessandro Oppo: open that they feared democracy. 103 00:05:42,650 --> 00:05:51,050 Alessandro Oppo: It was a threat to property rights, and they thought that the opulent wealthy landowners and slave owners should run society, 104 00:05:51,535 --> 00:05:59,994 Alessandro Oppo: and that they thought that the proper tool was elections. Now, to be fair, at that time, were limited to other property 105 00:05:59,994 --> 00:06:03,455 owning white men. But but even when they expanded 106 00:06:03,455 --> 00:06:05,215 Alessandro Oppo: the franchise to allow 107 00:06:05,550 --> 00:06:10,990 Alessandro Oppo: women to vote and former slaves and general population to vote, still 108 00:06:11,070 --> 00:06:17,630 Alessandro Oppo: the the people who got elected tended to be pretty much the same. They were the the well connected 109 00:06:20,275 --> 00:06:21,315 Alessandro Oppo: celebrities 110 00:06:21,315 --> 00:06:24,595 Alessandro Oppo: with great wealth or at least, attachment to great wealth. 111 00:06:25,715 --> 00:06:26,515 Terry Bouricious: And, 112 00:06:27,235 --> 00:06:30,355 Terry Bouricious: what what is or what was the reaction, 113 00:06:30,595 --> 00:06:31,395 Terry Bouricious: among, 114 00:06:31,555 --> 00:06:32,515 Terry Bouricious: like, Europe, 115 00:06:33,740 --> 00:06:35,500 Terry Bouricious: former colleague politicians. 116 00:06:35,980 --> 00:06:37,900 Terry Bouricious: So people that are elected. 117 00:06:39,020 --> 00:06:40,860 Alessandro Oppo: It's it's interesting. 118 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:47,340 Alessandro Oppo: When I talk about sortition, the use of lottery selection of everyday random people to 119 00:06:48,105 --> 00:06:52,905 Alessandro Oppo: form bodies that will then listen to expert testimony, have staff 120 00:06:54,105 --> 00:07:01,085 Alessandro Oppo: draft bills. Another body might be a jury that just listens to the pro and con arguments and votes to approve or 121 00:07:01,085 --> 00:07:05,210 reject the new bill, the new law. When I explained to people initially, 122 00:07:06,010 --> 00:07:10,970 Alessandro Oppo: their first reaction in The United States where nobody has heard of sortition. In Europe, there's a lot of places, 123 00:07:11,290 --> 00:07:12,170 Alessandro Oppo: Belgium, 124 00:07:12,170 --> 00:07:16,585 Alessandro Oppo: Germany, Denmark, a lot of places where it's very well known, but in The United States, nobody 125 00:07:17,305 --> 00:07:21,225 Alessandro Oppo: the initial reaction was always people would give a little chuckle, random 126 00:07:21,625 --> 00:07:27,625 Alessandro Oppo: everyday people making policy. What a ridiculous and then I talk about it for two or three more minutes 127 00:07:27,865 --> 00:07:34,935 Alessandro Oppo: and they start nodding their head. And the capper is, I say, it couldn't be any worse than what we have right 128 00:07:34,935 --> 00:07:36,220 now with these politicians. 129 00:07:36,220 --> 00:07:39,660 Alessandro Oppo: And they all say, yeah. And they recognize that they 130 00:07:40,220 --> 00:07:47,647 Alessandro Oppo: only think this is proper because it's what they grew up in. It's an insane system for a democracy. It doesn't work 131 00:07:47,647 --> 00:07:50,685 as a democracy. And in fact, it's worth noting 132 00:07:51,005 --> 00:07:51,805 Alessandro Oppo: that 133 00:07:52,685 --> 00:07:55,165 Alessandro Oppo: the system of having an elected chamber, 134 00:07:55,485 --> 00:07:57,085 Alessandro Oppo: it was not designed 135 00:07:57,165 --> 00:07:59,005 Alessandro Oppo: for a democracy. It was designed 136 00:07:59,730 --> 00:08:05,010 Alessandro Oppo: in an, in a monarchy so that the, the elite aristocracy 137 00:08:05,090 --> 00:08:09,650 Alessandro Oppo: could monitor, initially advise the king and then later control 138 00:08:10,370 --> 00:08:13,490 Alessandro Oppo: the king, but it was never intended to be a democratic 139 00:08:13,650 --> 00:08:20,583 Alessandro Oppo: tool. It is not inherently a democratic tool. And so when I try explaining to regular people, they generally said, yeah, that 140 00:08:20,583 --> 00:08:24,995 makes a lot of sense. But when I try and explain it to politicians, 141 00:08:25,955 --> 00:08:29,235 Alessandro Oppo: oh no, no, no, no. Or, or, or lobbyists. 142 00:08:29,235 --> 00:08:33,220 Alessandro Oppo: No, that's, that's a horrible idea. Because the fact is you realize that 143 00:08:33,620 --> 00:08:36,420 Alessandro Oppo: the only everyday normal people 144 00:08:36,900 --> 00:08:39,700 Alessandro Oppo: that politicians ever come in contact with 145 00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:42,420 Alessandro Oppo: around a policy matter 146 00:08:42,580 --> 00:08:48,185 Alessandro Oppo: are either people who know nothing about it. You know, I'll call them idiots, people who know nothing or 147 00:08:48,745 --> 00:08:53,065 Alessandro Oppo: fanatics who are on one side of an issue or another and are just and 148 00:08:53,065 --> 00:08:55,545 Alessandro Oppo: so their experience of everyday people 149 00:08:55,945 --> 00:08:57,065 Alessandro Oppo: is not 150 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:03,720 Alessandro Oppo: people who have gone into a deliberative body, spent weeks learning about the issues, listening to expert testimony, 151 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,080 Alessandro Oppo: and becoming virtual experts themselves on the issue. Politicians have never seen 152 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:16,809 Alessandro Oppo: everyday people like that. So it's not surprising that they reject the idea because they can't imagine the everyday people that they 153 00:09:16,809 --> 00:09:21,235 come in contact with making policy decisions because they're either idiots or fanatics. 154 00:09:23,390 --> 00:09:25,310 Terry Bouricious: And, how do you think that, 155 00:09:26,030 --> 00:09:30,030 Terry Bouricious: this kind of experiments in relation to sortition could be made 156 00:09:30,430 --> 00:09:32,270 Terry Bouricious: and so then introduced 157 00:09:32,270 --> 00:09:33,470 Terry Bouricious: in our world? Well, 158 00:09:33,710 --> 00:09:39,905 Alessandro Oppo: there are a lot of, there have now been over a thousand citizens' assemblies convened around the world, 159 00:09:41,025 --> 00:09:46,065 Alessandro Oppo: and every continent except Antarctica. Maybe they've had one there too. I don't know. But the point is that, 160 00:09:46,865 --> 00:09:50,305 Alessandro Oppo: use of random lottery selection to form deliberative bodies 161 00:09:50,470 --> 00:09:53,110 Alessandro Oppo: that tackle really thorny issues 162 00:09:53,750 --> 00:09:57,670 Alessandro Oppo: is now throughout most of the world becoming a standard, 163 00:09:58,310 --> 00:10:00,870 Alessandro Oppo: tool of of of government. 164 00:10:01,270 --> 00:10:07,335 Alessandro Oppo: But in The United States, it's we're not there yet. There've only been a handful of citizens' assemblies here. But almost all 165 00:10:07,335 --> 00:10:09,265 of these citizens' assemblies have been advisory. 166 00:10:09,505 --> 00:10:12,625 Alessandro Oppo: They come up with a policy, a list of policy recommendations 167 00:10:12,785 --> 00:10:15,105 Alessandro Oppo: that they hand over to the politicians. 168 00:10:15,985 --> 00:10:17,265 Alessandro Oppo: And then the politicians, 169 00:10:17,505 --> 00:10:24,240 Alessandro Oppo: sometimes they just shelve them. Sometimes they cherry pick particular issues that are politically palatable for the party in control. 170 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,960 Alessandro Oppo: But there are very few that have been really decisive. There have been some that have been virtually decisive. 171 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:31,920 Alessandro Oppo: In Ireland, 172 00:10:32,865 --> 00:10:35,265 Alessandro Oppo: the politicians there were 173 00:10:35,425 --> 00:10:40,625 Alessandro Oppo: looking at the issue of same sex marriage and later looking at the issue of abortion. 174 00:10:41,265 --> 00:10:50,515 Alessandro Oppo: And being a Catholic country, the politicians didn't wanna tackle those issues. They were afraid of them. So they agreed to set 175 00:10:50,515 --> 00:10:54,720 up a constitutional convention of randomly selected citizens, everyday people. 176 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,280 Alessandro Oppo: And that body took a lot of testimony, learned a lot, did deliberation, 177 00:10:59,725 --> 00:11:01,405 Alessandro Oppo: and two different two 178 00:11:01,405 --> 00:11:08,802 Alessandro Oppo: different randomly selected constitutional conventions made recommendations. One, to allow for same sex marriage, and a few years later, 179 00:11:08,802 --> 00:11:13,085 to remove the abortion ban that was in the Irish constitution. 180 00:11:14,030 --> 00:11:16,670 Alessandro Oppo: And those went to referendum, 181 00:11:16,670 --> 00:11:19,470 Alessandro Oppo: and they were approved by large, huge majorities 182 00:11:19,470 --> 00:11:21,790 Alessandro Oppo: of the everyday people in the country. 183 00:11:22,110 --> 00:11:22,990 Alessandro Oppo: Politicians 184 00:11:23,150 --> 00:11:24,590 Alessandro Oppo: did still have 185 00:11:24,830 --> 00:11:27,230 Alessandro Oppo: their their finger on it because 186 00:11:27,315 --> 00:11:31,875 Alessandro Oppo: they decided whether the issue would go to the people for vote. But the politicians 187 00:11:32,355 --> 00:11:34,915 Alessandro Oppo: intentionally wanted to keep hands off. 188 00:11:35,155 --> 00:11:40,915 Alessandro Oppo: So it's sort of interesting. And also in places like, oh, in Melbourne, I think it was Australia, 189 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:46,825 Alessandro Oppo: they had they're looking at their capital budget, ten year capital budget, very expensive, and they realized they didn't have enough 190 00:11:46,825 --> 00:11:51,080 money to do all the things that they wanted to do. And the politicians were afraid 191 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:57,285 Alessandro Oppo: to either raise taxes or cut some programs that were some some investments 192 00:11:57,285 --> 00:11:58,805 Alessandro Oppo: that were were popular. 193 00:11:59,045 --> 00:12:04,645 Alessandro Oppo: So they agreed to set up a a citizen assembly, 43 everyday people randomly selected. 194 00:12:04,965 --> 00:12:06,165 Alessandro Oppo: They deliberated, 195 00:12:06,485 --> 00:12:07,925 Alessandro Oppo: and they came to a unanimous 196 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,120 Alessandro Oppo: conclusion, recommendation about what should happen. So there are places 197 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:13,000 Alessandro Oppo: where 198 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:14,120 Alessandro Oppo: decisions 199 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:15,880 Alessandro Oppo: are almost 200 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,240 Alessandro Oppo: actual decisions by the people, but my goal 201 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,320 Alessandro Oppo: is to get there so that the politicians 202 00:12:22,865 --> 00:12:24,465 Alessandro Oppo: are not in the mix at all. 203 00:12:24,945 --> 00:12:26,785 Alessandro Oppo: And I even have a strategy. 204 00:12:27,745 --> 00:12:28,545 Terry Bouricious: The strategy 205 00:12:29,105 --> 00:12:31,345 Alessandro Oppo: is what I call appealing strategy. 206 00:12:32,065 --> 00:12:35,265 Alessandro Oppo: I want to try and get one policy domain at a time 207 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,480 Alessandro Oppo: removed from politicians and given to a jury like process. 208 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:42,080 Alessandro Oppo: And 209 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:48,160 Alessandro Oppo: you we'd probably start with issues where either the politicians have a clear conflict of interest, 210 00:12:48,895 --> 00:12:53,055 Alessandro Oppo: like an ethics panel that oversees the ethics performance of legislators, 211 00:12:53,135 --> 00:12:55,615 Alessandro Oppo: maybe you'd say, yeah, we don't want other politicians 212 00:12:55,935 --> 00:13:03,215 Alessandro Oppo: controlling it. Maybe we should have everyday people decide whether they were ethical. Or issues where politicians this is to get started. 213 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:11,278 Alessandro Oppo: Issues where politicians don't mind giving that over to the people. In my city in Burlington, like, there's some talk about, well, 214 00:13:11,278 --> 00:13:15,400 maybe we could move zoning decisions about changing the land use regulations 215 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,240 Alessandro Oppo: from the city council 216 00:13:17,585 --> 00:13:21,425 Alessandro Oppo: to a jury like process. The planning department would come up with recommendations. 217 00:13:21,665 --> 00:13:29,212 Alessandro Oppo: A jury would be pulled, let's say, 30 randomly selected people. They would listen to pro and con arguments about the proposed 218 00:13:29,212 --> 00:13:31,270 change and then simply vote. So 219 00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:37,430 Alessandro Oppo: my idea is to peel away one policy domain at a time so that we eventually 220 00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:40,150 Alessandro Oppo: get to the point where maybe 221 00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:44,630 Alessandro Oppo: a Congress or parliament still exists, but most of the important decisions 222 00:13:44,875 --> 00:13:48,875 Alessandro Oppo: are being made by everyday people in jury like process. 223 00:13:50,875 --> 00:13:54,075 Terry Bouricious: So this seems a very like a bottom up 224 00:13:55,035 --> 00:13:56,235 Terry Bouricious: style process. 225 00:13:57,035 --> 00:13:57,995 Terry Bouricious: They wonder how to 226 00:13:58,795 --> 00:13:59,835 Alessandro Oppo: It's both. I mean, 227 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,120 Alessandro Oppo: right now, 228 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,360 Alessandro Oppo: there have been a lot of citizens assemblies that have just been spontaneously 229 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,880 Alessandro Oppo: organized by 230 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,840 Alessandro Oppo: civic organizations with no government, 231 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,120 Alessandro Oppo: license at all. They just organize, 232 00:14:15,195 --> 00:14:18,635 Alessandro Oppo: but obviously they have budget constraints. And so sometimes 233 00:14:18,875 --> 00:14:21,435 Alessandro Oppo: in a good jury process, the jurors, 234 00:14:21,755 --> 00:14:26,235 Alessandro Oppo: the members of the citizens assembly, whatever would be paid for their time. There'd be childcare, 235 00:14:26,235 --> 00:14:27,355 Alessandro Oppo: there'd be various benefits. 236 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,980 Alessandro Oppo: When it's self organized, often they don't have the budget to do that. 237 00:14:33,020 --> 00:14:37,660 Alessandro Oppo: Then some have been organized a lot in parts of Europe and Australia 238 00:14:37,660 --> 00:14:38,780 Alessandro Oppo: and in Japan, 239 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:40,780 Alessandro Oppo: where they have been 240 00:14:41,435 --> 00:14:43,595 Alessandro Oppo: called by the government itself. 241 00:14:43,915 --> 00:14:44,715 Alessandro Oppo: They've initiated 242 00:14:45,035 --> 00:14:49,035 Alessandro Oppo: the creation of a citizens' assembly to deal with some thorny issue, 243 00:14:49,595 --> 00:14:52,315 Alessandro Oppo: in which case they have a little bit of a better budget. 244 00:14:52,475 --> 00:14:53,275 Alessandro Oppo: So 245 00:14:53,595 --> 00:14:57,710 Alessandro Oppo: trying to get politicians to do it is an important first step, 246 00:14:58,350 --> 00:15:01,630 Alessandro Oppo: but also having civic organizations just doing it on their own. 247 00:15:02,030 --> 00:15:05,390 Alessandro Oppo: But the key problem is if you have 248 00:15:06,030 --> 00:15:09,630 Alessandro Oppo: a mini public, a citizens' assembly, a sortition body, 249 00:15:10,115 --> 00:15:13,315 Alessandro Oppo: and they do a lot of work and they come up with a plan 250 00:15:13,795 --> 00:15:16,515 Alessandro Oppo: and the politicians say, no, we're not going to do that. 251 00:15:16,995 --> 00:15:19,155 Alessandro Oppo: That's going to, that's going to be more 252 00:15:19,475 --> 00:15:24,966 Alessandro Oppo: harm than good because people say, well, why bother? What's, what's the point if it doesn't have any effect? It has to 253 00:15:24,966 --> 00:15:25,766 have a result 254 00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:32,416 Alessandro Oppo: that people can see. But one of the goals is to have a lot of citizens' assemblies just so that people say, 255 00:15:32,416 --> 00:15:38,550 you talk about it and say, oh yeah, I heard about that. They had one over in Milan recently or whatever. 256 00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:42,135 Alessandro Oppo: Need to have some, even if they're only advisory, 257 00:15:42,215 --> 00:15:46,855 Alessandro Oppo: so as sort of a proof of concept. So people see that everyday people 258 00:15:47,015 --> 00:15:51,175 Alessandro Oppo: can become well informed and make really good quality decisions. 259 00:15:52,070 --> 00:15:54,310 Alessandro Oppo: And here's another point that I often talk about. 260 00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:56,070 Alessandro Oppo: Politicians 261 00:15:57,110 --> 00:16:00,230 Alessandro Oppo: have a vested interest in not seeking 262 00:16:00,710 --> 00:16:02,230 Alessandro Oppo: win win solutions. 263 00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:03,590 Alessandro Oppo: In other words, 264 00:16:04,405 --> 00:16:06,325 Alessandro Oppo: politicians want issues 265 00:16:06,405 --> 00:16:08,405 Alessandro Oppo: that they can use to 266 00:16:08,965 --> 00:16:12,005 Alessandro Oppo: demonize the other party or other parties. 267 00:16:12,245 --> 00:16:19,739 Alessandro Oppo: They they like the conflict. The conflict, they're evil. They're bad. We have to stop them. We need to vote them out 268 00:16:19,739 --> 00:16:20,539 of office. 269 00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:22,660 Alessandro Oppo: Fear and hatred 270 00:16:22,740 --> 00:16:25,700 Alessandro Oppo: are very effective and important campaign 271 00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:26,660 Alessandro Oppo: strategies. 272 00:16:27,140 --> 00:16:33,879 Alessandro Oppo: So if you say, well, here's a here's a proposal that everybody could get behind this. This makes a lot of sense 273 00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:40,005 and everybody supports it. Politicians basically aren't interested in that. That doesn't help them win power in the next election. 274 00:16:40,565 --> 00:16:41,365 Alessandro Oppo: So 275 00:16:41,525 --> 00:16:44,800 Alessandro Oppo: I've had a lot of experience with politicians 276 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,000 Alessandro Oppo: where when I was a politician, 277 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:49,520 Alessandro Oppo: a bill would come forward 278 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,480 Alessandro Oppo: from the other other other parties. 279 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,240 Alessandro Oppo: And my first 280 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,680 Alessandro Oppo: instinct as a politician, my goal was to find 281 00:16:58,225 --> 00:17:02,945 Alessandro Oppo: what was bad and horrible about it so I could attack them. 282 00:17:03,345 --> 00:17:05,665 Alessandro Oppo: That's what politicians want to do. 283 00:17:06,145 --> 00:17:11,964 Alessandro Oppo: It wasn't my natural instinct. It was, let's see what we can where we have common ground here and how we can 284 00:17:11,964 --> 00:17:17,782 we can craft this and add other things to make it so that we all agree on it. That was of no 285 00:17:17,782 --> 00:17:18,840 interest to the politicians. 286 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:21,960 Terry Bouricious: And, yeah, this, 287 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:24,760 Terry Bouricious: this issue about commitment 288 00:17:25,155 --> 00:17:28,195 Terry Bouricious: I mean, in relation to the, let's say, the output 289 00:17:28,755 --> 00:17:32,275 Terry Bouricious: of a citizen assembly and then the the implementation 290 00:17:32,435 --> 00:17:33,795 Terry Bouricious: has been an issue. 291 00:17:34,275 --> 00:17:35,475 Terry Bouricious: And, also, 292 00:17:36,355 --> 00:17:43,160 Terry Bouricious: it's very interesting what you point out, like the sort of conflict of interest that can have a politician because 293 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,280 Terry Bouricious: polarizing people and trying to 294 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,440 Terry Bouricious: to attack 295 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,240 Terry Bouricious: another party is probably 296 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:58,205 Terry Bouricious: more effective in term of the campaign of the party or the politician. Yeah. It's not painful. Yeah. 297 00:17:59,005 --> 00:18:03,245 Terry Bouricious: Now like, so I wonder, how could we change this? 298 00:18:03,325 --> 00:18:04,525 Terry Bouricious: Because it seems to me that, 299 00:18:05,405 --> 00:18:06,685 Terry Bouricious: probably like 300 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,600 Terry Bouricious: a new party or a new class of politician should emerge and 301 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,600 Terry Bouricious: the politician that are interested in sortition 302 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,000 Terry Bouricious: and are interested in implementing new 303 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:19,360 Terry Bouricious: a new methodology. 304 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,825 Alessandro Oppo: So Well, yeah, there's a lot of people 305 00:18:22,825 --> 00:18:25,385 Alessandro Oppo: who brainstorm ways to transition 306 00:18:25,385 --> 00:18:26,185 Alessandro Oppo: and 307 00:18:26,265 --> 00:18:28,585 Alessandro Oppo: I've settled on the peeling strategy 308 00:18:28,905 --> 00:18:32,505 Alessandro Oppo: because I'm concerned that when people get into 309 00:18:32,505 --> 00:18:34,105 Alessandro Oppo: a legislative framework, 310 00:18:35,470 --> 00:18:37,390 Alessandro Oppo: I don't want to say they get infected, 311 00:18:37,390 --> 00:18:40,510 Alessandro Oppo: but there are there are logical 312 00:18:40,510 --> 00:18:44,030 Alessandro Oppo: reasons. Whenever you have an election system in any society, 313 00:18:44,590 --> 00:18:49,935 Alessandro Oppo: there is an impetus to form political parties, to work together with colleagues, 314 00:18:50,255 --> 00:18:52,175 Alessandro Oppo: to to gain power. 315 00:18:52,975 --> 00:18:54,575 Alessandro Oppo: When you're in an a 316 00:18:55,375 --> 00:18:58,255 Alessandro Oppo: some people say, well, we'll have a political party that will just be committed 317 00:18:58,895 --> 00:19:01,055 Alessandro Oppo: to this kind of reform, sortition, 318 00:19:01,450 --> 00:19:04,090 Alessandro Oppo: and we'll get them into office. And then the 319 00:19:04,410 --> 00:19:06,170 Alessandro Oppo: thing is once they're in office, 320 00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:08,810 Alessandro Oppo: they also wanna get reelected. 321 00:19:09,290 --> 00:19:10,090 Alessandro Oppo: And 322 00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:10,970 Alessandro Oppo: also, 323 00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:17,413 Alessandro Oppo: there the other parties will try and, oh, come on. Come over to join our caucus. And because those guys are real 324 00:19:17,413 --> 00:19:20,395 bad. And so there's all these dynamic. And the fact is 325 00:19:21,115 --> 00:19:28,025 Alessandro Oppo: that some people say, well, we'll have citizens' assemblies outside and they'll make rec they'll make a decision. And then the legislator 326 00:19:28,025 --> 00:19:29,595 elected from this special party 327 00:19:29,810 --> 00:19:36,133 Alessandro Oppo: will, will do the work that the, that our citizens assembly has said they should do. This, this is the way they 328 00:19:36,133 --> 00:19:37,570 should vote on this issue. 329 00:19:37,890 --> 00:19:40,850 Alessandro Oppo: But that's not the way legislatures work. 90% 330 00:19:40,850 --> 00:19:46,290 Alessandro Oppo: of the important work is not the roll call votes. It's not the 331 00:19:45,705 --> 00:19:48,425 Alessandro Oppo: floor debate. It's not the votes that are recorded. 332 00:19:48,745 --> 00:19:51,785 Alessandro Oppo: It's the behind the doors secret deals. 333 00:19:52,025 --> 00:19:54,265 Alessandro Oppo: You scratch my back. I'll scratch yours. 334 00:19:54,505 --> 00:19:58,185 Alessandro Oppo: This is this is bill's gonna come forward. I promise I'm not gonna raise, 335 00:19:58,345 --> 00:20:00,880 Alessandro Oppo: an issue about that. It's that negotiating 336 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,160 Alessandro Oppo: that is invisible, 337 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,920 Alessandro Oppo: that voters never see. 338 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:05,440 Alessandro Oppo: And 339 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,240 Alessandro Oppo: having people that are committed to sortition 340 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,320 Alessandro Oppo: in that legislative framework, 341 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,925 Alessandro Oppo: they're not going to be able to do much there. And 342 00:20:14,005 --> 00:20:14,805 Alessandro Oppo: and 343 00:20:14,805 --> 00:20:16,245 Alessandro Oppo: the fact is that 344 00:20:17,045 --> 00:20:18,645 Alessandro Oppo: that within 345 00:20:18,645 --> 00:20:20,245 Alessandro Oppo: the legislative body, 346 00:20:21,205 --> 00:20:24,325 Alessandro Oppo: it's almost impossible for voters to know 347 00:20:24,725 --> 00:20:30,670 Alessandro Oppo: what their elected legislators are actually doing. I mean, it's the the economists use the term rational ignorance. 348 00:20:30,990 --> 00:20:33,790 Alessandro Oppo: If you have an election with millions of people voting, 349 00:20:34,670 --> 00:20:38,350 Alessandro Oppo: and most of what politicians are doing is behind closed doors and secret, 350 00:20:39,935 --> 00:20:44,895 Alessandro Oppo: The idea that the voters would be well informed to know which which way to vote, 351 00:20:45,455 --> 00:20:49,375 Alessandro Oppo: it it's sort of it's it's it's 352 00:20:49,375 --> 00:20:57,760 Alessandro Oppo: a showmanship. It's it's a performance art of politicians. It's not the reality. In fact, I've argued that it's basically impossible 353 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,560 Alessandro Oppo: for voters to use the election tool 354 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,960 Alessandro Oppo: to hold politicians to account. 355 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:10,514 Alessandro Oppo: There's a couple of wonderful stories that that that show this. Back in The United States, it was in early in the 356 00:21:10,514 --> 00:21:11,314 twentieth century, 357 00:21:11,485 --> 00:21:12,925 Alessandro Oppo: president Wilson 358 00:21:13,245 --> 00:21:14,365 Alessandro Oppo: was in office. 359 00:21:14,925 --> 00:21:16,205 Alessandro Oppo: And in New Jersey, 360 00:21:16,365 --> 00:21:20,605 Alessandro Oppo: there was a spate of shark attacks at the coast in the ocean, 361 00:21:20,845 --> 00:21:28,658 Alessandro Oppo: and the people were avoiding going to the tourist industry, which was in the coastal area of New Jersey. And the economy 362 00:21:28,658 --> 00:21:33,630 of Coastal New Jersey crashed because all of the tourist industries were were suffering. 363 00:21:34,285 --> 00:21:39,885 Alessandro Oppo: And so there's some a couple art political scientists, Bartels and Aachen, who looked at the vote totals 364 00:21:40,125 --> 00:21:41,885 Alessandro Oppo: for president Wilson's 365 00:21:41,885 --> 00:21:42,685 Alessandro Oppo: reelection 366 00:21:42,685 --> 00:21:44,605 Alessandro Oppo: campaign in the next election 367 00:21:44,765 --> 00:21:48,845 Alessandro Oppo: and found that in the counties right on the coast where the economy was suffering, 368 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,740 Alessandro Oppo: Wilson's vote total dropped precipitously 369 00:21:52,820 --> 00:21:58,500 Alessandro Oppo: because the notion was we throw the bums out. If things are going bad, we throw the current politicians out. 370 00:21:59,140 --> 00:22:02,020 Alessandro Oppo: In inland, away from the coast, there was no change. 371 00:22:02,340 --> 00:22:05,685 Alessandro Oppo: So nobody said Wilson was responsible 372 00:22:05,685 --> 00:22:07,045 Alessandro Oppo: for shark attacks. 373 00:22:07,365 --> 00:22:12,645 Alessandro Oppo: The point is when things go bad, you vote the incumbents out. And you look at the great depression 374 00:22:12,885 --> 00:22:18,777 Alessandro Oppo: in The United States, they voted out president Hoover and brought in Roosevelt who in The United States was considered a somewhat 375 00:22:18,777 --> 00:22:24,669 pretty much on the left. He wasn't a socialist, but he was left of the other parties. And so so a lot 376 00:22:24,669 --> 00:22:25,740 of Americans said, see, 377 00:22:26,060 --> 00:22:26,860 Alessandro Oppo: accountability 378 00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:27,900 Alessandro Oppo: works. 379 00:22:28,060 --> 00:22:31,900 Alessandro Oppo: But the same great depression in other countries also caused 380 00:22:32,385 --> 00:22:35,905 Alessandro Oppo: incumbent governments to be thrown out. And in Germany, 381 00:22:36,145 --> 00:22:37,345 Alessandro Oppo: the center left 382 00:22:37,425 --> 00:22:42,705 Alessandro Oppo: government was thrown out and eventually Hitler came in. So it's like throwing the incumbents out 383 00:22:43,265 --> 00:22:44,785 Alessandro Oppo: is really 384 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:46,560 Alessandro Oppo: crude sledgehammer 385 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:54,480 Alessandro Oppo: tool that has no idea of what caused the problems, what the other parties will do to fix it. Throwing the bums 386 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,800 out is a stupid way of having accountability. It simply doesn't work. 387 00:23:01,495 --> 00:23:04,055 Terry Bouricious: And in relation to citizen assembly, 388 00:23:04,295 --> 00:23:09,095 Terry Bouricious: I was wondering how do you imagine them like also supported by technology? 389 00:23:09,335 --> 00:23:10,775 Terry Bouricious: Because this is something, 390 00:23:11,335 --> 00:23:12,615 Terry Bouricious: or like, I don't know. 391 00:23:15,230 --> 00:23:16,030 Alessandro Oppo: Well, 392 00:23:16,110 --> 00:23:19,390 Alessandro Oppo: there are a lot of experimentation with using 393 00:23:20,830 --> 00:23:25,870 Alessandro Oppo: I hate to use the word AI because AI means a lot of different things. There's large language models. There's 394 00:23:26,110 --> 00:23:28,350 Alessandro Oppo: things that create videos. There's 395 00:23:29,155 --> 00:23:32,355 Alessandro Oppo: dozens of different kinds of large data 396 00:23:32,675 --> 00:23:36,995 Alessandro Oppo: systems. And some people are using them to do things like 397 00:23:37,715 --> 00:23:40,595 Alessandro Oppo: keep a record of, in a in an assembly 398 00:23:41,070 --> 00:23:46,510 Alessandro Oppo: who has spoken how many minutes, so and so hasn't spoken yet to help the facilitators 399 00:23:46,670 --> 00:23:51,310 Alessandro Oppo: sort of manage the thing. There's other things where they at the end of the day, they use 400 00:23:51,790 --> 00:23:52,590 Alessandro Oppo: an AI 401 00:23:53,485 --> 00:23:59,716 Alessandro Oppo: to draft summaries of each of the speakers and what was said, and the speakers get to review it and say, yeah, 402 00:23:59,716 --> 00:24:03,965 that, that summarizes me fairly or to correct it. But there's things which are just 403 00:24:04,285 --> 00:24:05,485 Alessandro Oppo: clerical tasks, 404 00:24:06,270 --> 00:24:08,190 Alessandro Oppo: which can be made a lot 405 00:24:08,750 --> 00:24:15,470 Alessandro Oppo: more efficient and a lot less effort to do to help citizens' assemblies function as they exist right now. 406 00:24:16,270 --> 00:24:19,150 Alessandro Oppo: But but you don't really need any of those 407 00:24:19,935 --> 00:24:25,615 Alessandro Oppo: to do this. It can be done completely. And in fact, in ancient Greece, in Athens, 408 00:24:26,415 --> 00:24:28,975 Alessandro Oppo: after the reforms of four zero three BC, 409 00:24:29,855 --> 00:24:30,655 Alessandro Oppo: they 410 00:24:31,135 --> 00:24:33,590 Alessandro Oppo: first off, before 04/2003, 411 00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:40,756 Alessandro Oppo: they they what we learned in school is about the assembly, the large mass assembly, and and that was the idea. That 412 00:24:40,756 --> 00:24:42,710 was the the image of democracy. 413 00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:44,150 Alessandro Oppo: And, 414 00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:47,110 Alessandro Oppo: you know, people speakers would get up, demagogues or whoever, 415 00:24:47,695 --> 00:24:52,015 Alessandro Oppo: and they would speak and people would vote. But the 416 00:24:52,415 --> 00:24:53,695 Alessandro Oppo: fact is that 417 00:24:53,935 --> 00:24:55,135 Alessandro Oppo: the agenda 418 00:24:55,215 --> 00:24:59,535 Alessandro Oppo: was controlled by a randomly selected council of 500, the Boule. 419 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:02,200 Alessandro Oppo: Now other city states 420 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:06,200 Alessandro Oppo: also had assemblies like Sparta that were not democracies at all. 421 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,400 Alessandro Oppo: So the assembly was not the defining feature of Athenian democracy because 422 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:12,920 Alessandro Oppo: the aristocracy 423 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:13,720 Alessandro Oppo: controlled 424 00:25:14,685 --> 00:25:19,165 Alessandro Oppo: Sparta also had the assembly, but the agenda was controlled by the aristocracy. 425 00:25:19,325 --> 00:25:26,365 Alessandro Oppo: They would decide what what things they would put in front of the people. And so after the reforms of four zero 426 00:25:26,365 --> 00:25:28,925 three BC, when democracy was reinstated in Athens, 427 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,280 Alessandro Oppo: the assembly gave all lawmaking authority 428 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,320 Alessandro Oppo: away from the mass assembly 429 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,720 Alessandro Oppo: to the nomothetai, 430 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:39,520 Alessandro Oppo: which were 431 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,105 Alessandro Oppo: randomly selected jury of 500 or a thousand everyday, 432 00:25:44,505 --> 00:25:45,865 Alessandro Oppo: Athenian citizens, 433 00:25:46,425 --> 00:25:50,745 Alessandro Oppo: they would listen to pro and con arguments on a proposed new law 434 00:25:50,985 --> 00:25:52,185 Alessandro Oppo: and then vote. 435 00:25:52,505 --> 00:25:55,785 Alessandro Oppo: That was the only way that laws were established 436 00:25:55,980 --> 00:25:58,620 Alessandro Oppo: in the reformed democracy of Athens. 437 00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:00,940 Alessandro Oppo: They didn't need any AI. 438 00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:07,740 Alessandro Oppo: They just had five speakers in favor, five speakers against. They could ask clarifying questions perhaps, 439 00:26:08,060 --> 00:26:10,780 Alessandro Oppo: and then they would vote. So the idea 440 00:26:11,335 --> 00:26:13,975 Alessandro Oppo: of using special technology, 441 00:26:14,135 --> 00:26:17,815 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, we can do that, but it's absolutely not essential. 442 00:26:20,295 --> 00:26:22,215 Terry Bouricious: And something interesting from 443 00:26:22,935 --> 00:26:26,935 Terry Bouricious: ancient Greek history is that also people were compensated 444 00:26:27,390 --> 00:26:29,150 Terry Bouricious: when they were participating 445 00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:30,270 Terry Bouricious: in their political There 446 00:26:31,150 --> 00:26:34,270 Alessandro Oppo: was a point in the early days of the assembly, 447 00:26:34,750 --> 00:26:37,950 Alessandro Oppo: they were not paid. And then they said, you know what? 448 00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:44,777 Alessandro Oppo: At some point they actually had a difficulty getting the quorum that they required. I don't if it was 6,000 people or 449 00:26:44,777 --> 00:26:51,123 whatever. There was some quorum it's very I mean, the democracy lasted for two hundred years, so policies changed. But anyway, they 450 00:26:51,123 --> 00:26:54,585 started paying them for attending and also for serving on other bodies. 451 00:26:55,090 --> 00:26:56,370 Alessandro Oppo: And, 452 00:26:57,090 --> 00:27:03,788 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, it was recognized that this is, this is important work. Making democratic decisions is important work. They wasn't, they weren't 453 00:27:03,788 --> 00:27:10,805 paid handily, but they were paid. Yeah. And in fact, some of the people, the anti Democrats, and there are people who 454 00:27:10,805 --> 00:27:13,675 wrote, historians and so on, who were, who wanted 455 00:27:13,675 --> 00:27:15,515 Alessandro Oppo: an oligarchy of aristocrats. 456 00:27:15,515 --> 00:27:18,155 Alessandro Oppo: That's what they thought was good government, 457 00:27:18,475 --> 00:27:25,952 Alessandro Oppo: who didn't like democracy. They complained that you have all these pensioners, if you will, people, elderly retired people who didn't 458 00:27:25,952 --> 00:27:27,020 have work anymore, 459 00:27:27,180 --> 00:27:33,420 Alessandro Oppo: filling up the, the assembly because they're being paid. You know, it's true. But if you look at the age 460 00:27:33,740 --> 00:27:40,462 Alessandro Oppo: of, of, in The United States of, of the senators and congressmen, you know, the average age is up in the sixties, 461 00:27:40,462 --> 00:27:47,184 seventies, eighties. I don't know. I mean, couple of people just got renominated who are who are past 80 years old. So 462 00:27:47,184 --> 00:27:47,984 the gerontocracy 463 00:27:48,355 --> 00:27:49,635 Alessandro Oppo: is not a cause 464 00:27:50,115 --> 00:27:51,715 Alessandro Oppo: that election is overcome. 465 00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:56,820 Alessandro Oppo: Even though they complained about the anti democrats complained about it in Athens. 466 00:27:57,780 --> 00:27:59,860 Terry Bouricious: Oh, yeah. I I was thinking if, 467 00:28:00,660 --> 00:28:05,300 Terry Bouricious: like, there is a democracy without politicians and so people participate in the political life, 468 00:28:05,915 --> 00:28:09,515 Terry Bouricious: that also mean that they could receive a sort of compensation 469 00:28:09,675 --> 00:28:10,715 Terry Bouricious: because maybe 470 00:28:11,275 --> 00:28:12,075 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. 471 00:28:12,315 --> 00:28:15,195 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. Maybe there there's a lot of ways you could design 472 00:28:15,595 --> 00:28:22,027 Alessandro Oppo: a democratic system without having elections at all. My idea is with appealing strategy, elections would probably persist. But the 473 00:28:22,027 --> 00:28:29,102 idea is I wanna have some policy domains where it's the politicians have no say about it. They have no interest in 474 00:28:29,102 --> 00:28:36,177 it. It's like they don't argue with the citizen assembly because they're making all decisions about, let's say, taxation is being decided 475 00:28:36,177 --> 00:28:37,785 by everyday citizens in assembly 476 00:28:37,945 --> 00:28:39,225 Alessandro Oppo: and politicians. 477 00:28:39,225 --> 00:28:41,385 Alessandro Oppo: What I want to avoid is politicians 478 00:28:41,625 --> 00:28:42,425 Alessandro Oppo: and 479 00:28:42,825 --> 00:28:47,145 Alessandro Oppo: in other words, I'm opposed to what's called a bicameral system where one chamber 480 00:28:47,305 --> 00:28:48,505 Alessandro Oppo: is elected 481 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,840 Alessandro Oppo: like the current ones and one, another chamber is selected by lottery. 482 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,360 Alessandro Oppo: I think that's problematic because the chamber that's elected 483 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,760 Alessandro Oppo: is full of narcissistic 484 00:28:58,760 --> 00:28:59,640 Alessandro Oppo: sociopaths, 485 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,400 Alessandro Oppo: not all of them, but a lot of them are. 486 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,585 Alessandro Oppo: And, and they 487 00:29:03,585 --> 00:29:10,385 Alessandro Oppo: are skilled at public relations. They have power at stake. They have their careers at stake. The random group, 488 00:29:10,625 --> 00:29:15,818 Alessandro Oppo: they're there for a short duration. Maybe it's, maybe it's weeks, maybe it's months, maybe it's a couple of years. It depends 489 00:29:15,818 --> 00:29:21,010 on how the design is set up And then they're gone. So they have no career path there. So the the politicians, 490 00:29:21,010 --> 00:29:22,450 Alessandro Oppo: if the two bodies 491 00:29:22,610 --> 00:29:25,330 Alessandro Oppo: are butting heads on some policy decision, 492 00:29:26,210 --> 00:29:33,015 Alessandro Oppo: the elected politicians know how to use the media. Say, you want a bunch of hairdressers and plumbers making decisions about taxes? 493 00:29:33,175 --> 00:29:37,735 Alessandro Oppo: We are the spokesman for the people. We've been selected by the people. Politicians 494 00:29:38,135 --> 00:29:45,287 Alessandro Oppo: know how to play the game, and they'll they'll destroy the sortition body. So I want to not have them butting heads. 495 00:29:45,287 --> 00:29:52,440 I want the elected politicians to deal with their issues and the citizens to deal with their issues. That's in the transition 496 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:53,740 phase. And then eventually 497 00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:55,900 Alessandro Oppo: the elected body gets smaller, 498 00:29:55,980 --> 00:30:04,813 Alessandro Oppo: fewer and fewer issues until they become irrelevant and the sortition bodies, everything. My vision is that even if the elections still 499 00:30:04,813 --> 00:30:05,613 exist, 500 00:30:05,855 --> 00:30:08,095 Alessandro Oppo: it's sort of like the monarchies 501 00:30:08,095 --> 00:30:14,235 Alessandro Oppo: of Europe that, you know, they exist, but they don't have any power. I want maybe politicians still exist, but I don't 502 00:30:14,235 --> 00:30:15,910 want them to have any power. 503 00:30:16,390 --> 00:30:23,210 Alessandro Oppo: And I have a whole scheme, which I've written paper about, and I talk about it in my book about multi body 504 00:30:23,210 --> 00:30:24,010 sortition, because 505 00:30:24,390 --> 00:30:32,285 Alessandro Oppo: quite frankly, it doesn't work to have a single chamber of randomly selected people doing the entire legislative process. 506 00:30:32,605 --> 00:30:35,165 Alessandro Oppo: In fact, it doesn't work in the elected chambers either. 507 00:30:35,885 --> 00:30:40,285 Alessandro Oppo: But that's just what we have because that was what was passed down from the advisory 508 00:30:40,285 --> 00:30:41,565 Alessandro Oppo: bodies to the king. 509 00:30:42,285 --> 00:30:44,925 Alessandro Oppo: But what you really need is 510 00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:51,940 Alessandro Oppo: an agenda body that just says, these are the issues that we need to deal with. Because right now, agendas 511 00:30:52,180 --> 00:30:53,620 Alessandro Oppo: set by politicians, 512 00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:55,860 Alessandro Oppo: they put a lot of things on there that 513 00:30:56,260 --> 00:31:00,260 Alessandro Oppo: that are good for the next campaign, issues where they can attack the other party. 514 00:31:01,025 --> 00:31:04,865 Alessandro Oppo: There might be other issues that are really important that just get ignored. Like, 515 00:31:05,105 --> 00:31:09,345 Alessandro Oppo: climate change was understood to be a very important issue for about 516 00:31:09,345 --> 00:31:13,345 Alessandro Oppo: forty years. Forty, fifty years, it has been understood 517 00:31:13,345 --> 00:31:19,027 Alessandro Oppo: that we really need to deal with this. But politicians just continued to kick the can down the road and ignore it 518 00:31:19,027 --> 00:31:24,709 until it started to become a crisis. And The United States, they're still pretty much ignoring it. In some parts of Europe, 519 00:31:24,709 --> 00:31:27,550 they're actually dealing with it now. But the point is that 520 00:31:28,165 --> 00:31:30,805 Alessandro Oppo: because the politicians were setting the agenda, 521 00:31:31,285 --> 00:31:36,885 Alessandro Oppo: they were choosing agenda items in a in a foolish way, a way that was not good for society. 522 00:31:37,125 --> 00:31:40,965 Alessandro Oppo: So I think we need a randomist like a body that all they're doing is listening to a bunch of experts 523 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,800 Alessandro Oppo: and deciding these are the issues we need to deal with. 524 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:50,562 Alessandro Oppo: And then you'd have a maybe you'd say you put out a general call to the entire society saying, anybody have policy 525 00:31:50,562 --> 00:31:54,120 ideas? You form a group of 10 of you can come together, 526 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:56,600 Alessandro Oppo: work up a a draft bill. 527 00:31:57,295 --> 00:32:00,175 Alessandro Oppo: There might be dozens or a 100 of these 528 00:32:00,655 --> 00:32:02,095 Alessandro Oppo: bodies that are just anybody 529 00:32:02,735 --> 00:32:08,088 Alessandro Oppo: in society who wants to be involved. They can help craft a bill and they submit it. And then there would be 530 00:32:08,088 --> 00:32:13,442 a randomly selected review panel that would look at all this raw material and say, this this one's nonsense. This one's stupid. 531 00:32:13,442 --> 00:32:18,795 Oh, this is pretty good. Oh, this one's pretty good. Maybe we could meld these two together. We'd send it back to 532 00:32:18,795 --> 00:32:24,148 them and say, can you guys work together and work out a combined version? Cause we like both of these bills. And 533 00:32:24,148 --> 00:32:29,015 then you come up with a final bill. The review panel would would craft a final bill on the topic. 534 00:32:29,415 --> 00:32:31,815 Alessandro Oppo: And then my idea is the problem is 535 00:32:32,135 --> 00:32:34,055 Alessandro Oppo: once you've crafted something, 536 00:32:34,695 --> 00:32:35,575 Alessandro Oppo: you become 537 00:32:35,940 --> 00:32:37,060 Alessandro Oppo: incompetent 538 00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:44,502 Alessandro Oppo: to judge your own handiwork. There's a a pride of authorship. There's there's there's a there's a group think that can set 539 00:32:44,502 --> 00:32:48,900 in, or a particular member who's really articulate and leads the body astray. 540 00:32:49,255 --> 00:32:54,775 Alessandro Oppo: So I don't want the body that crafts that final bill to then say this is approved. 541 00:32:54,935 --> 00:33:01,760 Alessandro Oppo: I want a jury, a separate jury, randomly selected people, very large, statistically representative of the population. I want them to 542 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:07,610 come together and listen to the pro and con arguments just like the nomothetai did in ancient Athens. 543 00:33:07,770 --> 00:33:09,690 Alessandro Oppo: Listen to the pro and con arguments, 544 00:33:09,690 --> 00:33:11,210 Alessandro Oppo: ask clarifying questions, 545 00:33:11,290 --> 00:33:18,483 Alessandro Oppo: and then vote to adopt or reject the law. So it is a relatively involved process. The point is having a single 546 00:33:18,483 --> 00:33:19,283 chamber, 547 00:33:19,345 --> 00:33:21,025 Alessandro Oppo: whether it's randomly selected 548 00:33:21,185 --> 00:33:22,225 Alessandro Oppo: or elected, 549 00:33:22,545 --> 00:33:24,865 Alessandro Oppo: is a bad design for democracy. 550 00:33:27,505 --> 00:33:30,305 Terry Bouricious: And in relation to, I mean, your vision, 551 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:36,300 Terry Bouricious: how do you imagine democracy? How it could be, let's say, 552 00:33:36,620 --> 00:33:37,420 Terry Bouricious: if 553 00:33:38,940 --> 00:33:40,700 Terry Bouricious: sortition is adopted, 554 00:33:42,940 --> 00:33:45,145 Terry Bouricious: yeah, how it could work? Like, 555 00:33:45,625 --> 00:33:48,505 Terry Bouricious: like, democracy could have no 556 00:33:48,825 --> 00:33:49,785 Terry Bouricious: one elected? 557 00:33:51,225 --> 00:33:52,585 Alessandro Oppo: Well, I 558 00:33:53,625 --> 00:33:59,185 Alessandro Oppo: I refer to this as I used to call this my two hundred year project because it's it's not gonna happen immediately. 559 00:33:59,185 --> 00:34:04,240 But there have been so much progress in citizens assemblies around the world. Now it's my twenty year project. But, 560 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:11,500 Alessandro Oppo: so so I can talk about the the end point, the the my vision of how because you need sort of a 561 00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:17,320 north star saying, this is the direction we wanna go. So so that's what I'm doing there is I'm saying this is 562 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,965 the the the kind of system that I would like. 563 00:34:20,365 --> 00:34:25,523 Alessandro Oppo: There might be one of the things that I didn't mention in my my grand design with all these different bodies, one 564 00:34:25,523 --> 00:34:27,165 of the bodies we would also want 565 00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:34,600 Alessandro Oppo: is a randomly selected group, maybe of people who had previously served on some other citizens' assembly, some other body 566 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,480 Alessandro Oppo: as a rules committee, which would be constantly looking at the performance of all these bodies 567 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,000 Alessandro Oppo: and making recommended 568 00:34:41,215 --> 00:34:42,335 Alessandro Oppo: improvements, 569 00:34:42,335 --> 00:34:48,446 Alessandro Oppo: changes to the rules. Like we, the term of office is too long. People are becoming like, they're getting like politicians because 570 00:34:48,446 --> 00:34:52,335 they're serving too long. We need to shorter terms or, or we need to 571 00:34:52,895 --> 00:34:58,250 Alessandro Oppo: use AI this way or get rid of AI or whatever. So a rules body, which would be constantly 572 00:34:58,250 --> 00:35:01,290 Alessandro Oppo: perfecting and changing the design. I'm just proposing 573 00:35:01,370 --> 00:35:02,810 Alessandro Oppo: an initial design 574 00:35:03,050 --> 00:35:04,970 Alessandro Oppo: that I think makes sense. 575 00:35:05,290 --> 00:35:08,410 Alessandro Oppo: But one of the key things that in my design 576 00:35:08,755 --> 00:35:12,275 Alessandro Oppo: is a rules body that will constantly be evaluating 577 00:35:12,275 --> 00:35:18,195 Alessandro Oppo: things and making improvements. Also, would learn oversight body randomly selected that would evaluate 578 00:35:18,195 --> 00:35:21,715 Alessandro Oppo: the performance of the staff for this body because there's always the danger 579 00:35:22,210 --> 00:35:24,610 Alessandro Oppo: of capture by the bureaucracy. 580 00:35:24,850 --> 00:35:31,945 Alessandro Oppo: You have random people come in, the bureaucracy is there permanently. They could, they could steer things. So you need an oversight 581 00:35:31,945 --> 00:35:35,815 body that is randomly selected and they can fire members, the facilitators, 582 00:35:35,975 --> 00:35:42,754 Alessandro Oppo: the staff, if they get too many complaints that they're behaving in a way that's manipulative, etcetera, etcetera. So there's a lot 583 00:35:42,754 --> 00:35:44,295 more to the design, but, 584 00:35:45,735 --> 00:35:46,855 Alessandro Oppo: Oh, I got 585 00:35:47,655 --> 00:35:49,655 Alessandro Oppo: off track there. Your question was about, 586 00:35:50,180 --> 00:35:56,634 Alessandro Oppo: can you rephrase the question? I because I I I I went off on a side path there. No. No. No. It 587 00:35:56,634 --> 00:35:57,434 was a 588 00:35:57,860 --> 00:36:00,740 Terry Bouricious: was a little like a how do you see, like, 589 00:36:01,940 --> 00:36:04,500 Terry Bouricious: democracy in the future? Let's say if 590 00:36:04,660 --> 00:36:07,585 Alessandro Oppo: sortition is used. There's a thing I'm really 591 00:36:08,865 --> 00:36:09,985 Alessandro Oppo: sorry. 592 00:36:10,625 --> 00:36:16,065 Terry Bouricious: No, you go ahead. Okay. No, I was also wanted to ask you about a possible timeline, 593 00:36:16,065 --> 00:36:18,145 Terry Bouricious: but you replied with the 200. 594 00:36:19,105 --> 00:36:24,280 Alessandro Oppo: One important thing that when I wrote my paper on multi body sortition 595 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,400 Alessandro Oppo: lessons from the 596 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,240 Alessandro Oppo: Athenian 597 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,200 Alessandro Oppo: democracy for the modern day and in my book, 598 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:37,306 Alessandro Oppo: it's mostly focused on the lawmaking side. And then people go, well, what about a president? What about a prime minister? What 599 00:36:37,306 --> 00:36:38,155 about a governor? 600 00:36:39,195 --> 00:36:45,355 Alessandro Oppo: You wouldn't select them by random lottery. Yes. You would not select a single individual 601 00:36:45,515 --> 00:36:47,995 Alessandro Oppo: by a lottery selection. Although you actually 602 00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:54,655 Alessandro Oppo: could, if you had a narrow pool of people who are all great and you could pick one of them randomly from 603 00:36:54,655 --> 00:36:58,310 that pool. That that's a possible scenario, but it's not what I'm advocating. 604 00:36:58,470 --> 00:36:59,270 Alessandro Oppo: But the 605 00:36:59,590 --> 00:37:04,775 Alessandro Oppo: executive in my notion is the executive needs to be removed 606 00:37:04,775 --> 00:37:05,575 Alessandro Oppo: from 607 00:37:05,895 --> 00:37:07,335 Alessandro Oppo: policy making rule. 608 00:37:07,575 --> 00:37:10,295 Alessandro Oppo: The executive needs to be an administrator. 609 00:37:10,775 --> 00:37:12,135 Alessandro Oppo: They faithfully 610 00:37:12,135 --> 00:37:17,335 Alessandro Oppo: execute the law that the legislative branch, the democratic branch has enacted. 611 00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:24,430 Alessandro Oppo: The problem we have is that we inherited our system. It's basically passed down of the king 612 00:37:24,510 --> 00:37:30,312 Alessandro Oppo: and the parliament in Britain and so on. And there's the executive who has a lot of authority and how much authority 613 00:37:30,312 --> 00:37:31,630 the two have. But the 614 00:37:32,030 --> 00:37:36,345 Alessandro Oppo: model has always been, whether it's the prime minister or president, 615 00:37:36,585 --> 00:37:39,625 Alessandro Oppo: it's sort of like, it's, it's like a 616 00:37:39,785 --> 00:37:41,065 Alessandro Oppo: slightly reduced 617 00:37:41,065 --> 00:37:41,865 Alessandro Oppo: king 618 00:37:42,105 --> 00:37:43,305 Alessandro Oppo: or queen. 619 00:37:43,705 --> 00:37:48,750 Alessandro Oppo: And that is a really bad design because you can, I mean, I, I don't wanna get 620 00:37:49,390 --> 00:37:56,794 Alessandro Oppo: partisan here, but you can see what happens when a member of parliament who's elected prime minister or a king or a 621 00:37:56,794 --> 00:37:59,150 president, excuse me, in The United States 622 00:37:59,310 --> 00:38:00,190 Alessandro Oppo: decides 623 00:38:00,190 --> 00:38:01,550 Alessandro Oppo: that they want to exercise 624 00:38:01,955 --> 00:38:03,475 Alessandro Oppo: king like power, 625 00:38:04,195 --> 00:38:09,315 Alessandro Oppo: having an executive who also is engaged in policy generation 626 00:38:09,555 --> 00:38:10,355 Alessandro Oppo: and 627 00:38:10,435 --> 00:38:12,755 Alessandro Oppo: issuing edicts and resolutions 628 00:38:12,915 --> 00:38:14,595 Alessandro Oppo: and directing things 629 00:38:14,780 --> 00:38:16,300 Alessandro Oppo: is incredibly 630 00:38:16,300 --> 00:38:17,820 Alessandro Oppo: dangerous to democracy? 631 00:38:18,140 --> 00:38:19,420 Alessandro Oppo: So my idea, 632 00:38:19,740 --> 00:38:22,860 Alessandro Oppo: you know, in my ideal democracy with sortition, 633 00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:26,460 Alessandro Oppo: a multi body system for enacting laws 634 00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:31,975 Alessandro Oppo: is you would probably have a randomly selected body. It's a hiring committee. 635 00:38:32,215 --> 00:38:33,335 Alessandro Oppo: They would recruit 636 00:38:33,335 --> 00:38:34,375 Alessandro Oppo: an executive. 637 00:38:34,615 --> 00:38:41,444 Alessandro Oppo: It would ideally be somebody who was not seeking the office. Because if you're seeking power, that's almost a sure sign that 638 00:38:41,444 --> 00:38:42,375 you're a narcissistic 639 00:38:42,375 --> 00:38:47,040 Alessandro Oppo: psychopath and you should not be in that position. Now I don't want to 640 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:54,480 Alessandro Oppo: imply that all politicians are psychopaths and narcissists. There are some wonderful politicians, people who are honorable, great, 641 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:55,760 Alessandro Oppo: fantastic 642 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:56,880 Alessandro Oppo: human beings. 643 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,655 Alessandro Oppo: But as a group, politicians are far more likely 644 00:39:01,655 --> 00:39:05,175 Alessandro Oppo: to be narcissists and psychopaths than the general public. 645 00:39:05,415 --> 00:39:06,215 Alessandro Oppo: So 646 00:39:06,295 --> 00:39:13,882 Alessandro Oppo: my idea is that this randomly selected body, they would recruit, they would seek out people and they'd find people who were 647 00:39:13,882 --> 00:39:19,400 willing to do it, but had not maybe even considered it. President of a university, somebody 648 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,160 Alessandro Oppo: who runs a business, somebody who's the head of a union, whatever. 649 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:24,840 Alessandro Oppo: They would seek out people 650 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:31,795 Alessandro Oppo: who would be good in the job and would understand that their job was to be an administrator, 651 00:39:31,795 --> 00:39:33,475 Alessandro Oppo: not a policy generator. 652 00:39:34,115 --> 00:39:39,463 Alessandro Oppo: And the idea that once they hire the person, so there would be no mass election for this person. They would simply 653 00:39:39,463 --> 00:39:40,435 be a hiring committee. 654 00:39:40,675 --> 00:39:41,475 Alessandro Oppo: And then every, 655 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,360 Alessandro Oppo: every six months, every year, whatever duration 656 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,600 Alessandro Oppo: the rules committee thinks makes sense, 657 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:53,669 Alessandro Oppo: there would be a review panel that would be pulled together, a jury, like randomly selected people that would review the performance 658 00:39:53,669 --> 00:39:54,600 of the executive, 659 00:39:54,600 --> 00:40:00,385 Alessandro Oppo: listen to pro and con arguments about their performance, hear complaints from the staff, from the bureaucracy, 660 00:40:00,385 --> 00:40:07,376 Alessandro Oppo: from lay people, people in the public saying, I saw them do this and they did this and they manipulated the the 661 00:40:07,376 --> 00:40:12,460 assembly this way, and they could then fire the executive, opening the seat for a replacement. 662 00:40:12,860 --> 00:40:13,820 Alessandro Oppo: But there again, 663 00:40:14,540 --> 00:40:20,422 Alessandro Oppo: you don't want the body that fires them to also be the body that replaces them. You'd want a new body, a 664 00:40:20,422 --> 00:40:24,165 recruitment body to go out and find a replacement because you don't want people, 665 00:40:24,405 --> 00:40:29,986 Alessandro Oppo: who ran with sex have an incentive to be honest, Hey, no, if we get rid of this guy, we can pick 666 00:40:29,986 --> 00:40:34,805 the person we want. And then that person would be beholden to us and we're gonna, you know, whatever. 667 00:40:35,285 --> 00:40:41,400 Alessandro Oppo: You want to have a separation of powers. That's one of the things that is in The US constitution 668 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,520 Alessandro Oppo: that is important. Separation of powers. 669 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,040 Alessandro Oppo: It's not working in The United States because political parties 670 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:54,974 Alessandro Oppo: have merged so that when the Congress and the president and the Supreme Court are controlled by the same party in The 671 00:40:54,974 --> 00:40:59,335 United States, there is no separation of powers. They all become one unified effort. 672 00:40:59,735 --> 00:41:04,615 Alessandro Oppo: And other countries often that's true too, particularly in parliamentary systems where the executive 673 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:12,000 Alessandro Oppo: is in the same party that controls the legislative branch. They that's a unified thing. And that quite frankly 674 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:13,120 Alessandro Oppo: is 675 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,680 Alessandro Oppo: a very dangerous design. It can easily lead to authoritarianism 676 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,680 Alessandro Oppo: and even eventually to totalitarianism. 677 00:41:19,785 --> 00:41:22,985 Alessandro Oppo: And we've seen that in several European countries that have come 678 00:41:23,465 --> 00:41:27,865 Alessandro Oppo: dangerously close and are some of them are still on the precipice of becoming fully, 679 00:41:28,025 --> 00:41:29,625 Alessandro Oppo: you know, authoritarian. 680 00:41:30,585 --> 00:41:35,340 Terry Bouricious: Mhmm. Yeah. Separation of power is super important. And I was thinking that, 681 00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:42,300 Terry Bouricious: usually we do not consider also informational power and economic power that can interfere The a 682 00:41:44,060 --> 00:41:45,580 Alessandro Oppo: whole issue of economics, 683 00:41:45,580 --> 00:41:49,475 Alessandro Oppo: you know, in my book now I individually, 684 00:41:49,475 --> 00:41:51,635 Alessandro Oppo: I will confess that my 685 00:41:51,635 --> 00:41:52,515 Alessandro Oppo: politics 686 00:41:52,515 --> 00:41:58,195 Alessandro Oppo: are very much on the left, farther left than almost any politicians in The United States. 687 00:41:58,595 --> 00:41:59,795 Alessandro Oppo: But in my book, 688 00:42:00,355 --> 00:42:07,370 Alessandro Oppo: I studiously avoided any left, right. And so therefore I also avoided a lot of talk about 689 00:42:07,690 --> 00:42:13,370 Alessandro Oppo: the other angle of oligarchy, which is the billionaires and the super wealthy. So I focused on 690 00:42:13,530 --> 00:42:15,450 Alessandro Oppo: the structure of the government 691 00:42:15,530 --> 00:42:16,330 Alessandro Oppo: because 692 00:42:16,885 --> 00:42:20,245 Alessandro Oppo: my feeling is that to get sortition democracy, 693 00:42:20,565 --> 00:42:25,525 Alessandro Oppo: we need to have people of all political stripes working together, recognizing that politicians 694 00:42:25,525 --> 00:42:28,005 Alessandro Oppo: are the problem of whatever political stripe. 695 00:42:28,245 --> 00:42:29,765 Alessandro Oppo: And 696 00:42:29,060 --> 00:42:31,540 Alessandro Oppo: I have talked to right wing 697 00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:33,220 Alessandro Oppo: libertarian groups. 698 00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:37,220 Alessandro Oppo: And when I start talking about the problem of politics 699 00:42:37,220 --> 00:42:38,340 Alessandro Oppo: and politicians, 700 00:42:39,060 --> 00:42:40,500 Alessandro Oppo: even though I'm on the left, 701 00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:43,940 Alessandro Oppo: these right wingers are nodding their head. Agree. Yeah. 702 00:42:44,425 --> 00:42:47,785 Alessandro Oppo: And and and the idea is here's the funny thing is 703 00:42:48,185 --> 00:42:51,145 Alessandro Oppo: those of us who are deeply involved in policy matters, 704 00:42:51,785 --> 00:42:52,745 Alessandro Oppo: economics, 705 00:42:52,905 --> 00:42:54,345 Alessandro Oppo: social issues, whatever, 706 00:42:54,985 --> 00:42:59,100 Alessandro Oppo: we tend to believe that we since we figured out our position 707 00:42:59,340 --> 00:43:05,340 Alessandro Oppo: based on information around us, we tend to believe that if we could get a room full of everyday 708 00:43:05,340 --> 00:43:08,300 Alessandro Oppo: ordinary people and just explain 709 00:43:08,300 --> 00:43:11,180 Alessandro Oppo: all the things that we have come to understand, 710 00:43:11,260 --> 00:43:13,340 Alessandro Oppo: explain to them, they'd agree with us. 711 00:43:13,845 --> 00:43:19,525 Alessandro Oppo: Ordinary people, they'd agree with us if we could just explain it to them. And that is a very powerful reason 712 00:43:19,765 --> 00:43:20,565 Alessandro Oppo: why 713 00:43:20,565 --> 00:43:28,674 Alessandro Oppo: I think people on both the left and the right can be persuaded to push for sortition reform because they see the 714 00:43:28,674 --> 00:43:29,780 politicians are problematic 715 00:43:29,940 --> 00:43:32,500 Alessandro Oppo: and they have a belief or at least a hope 716 00:43:32,740 --> 00:43:35,860 Alessandro Oppo: that ordinary people would agree with them. Now eventually, 717 00:43:35,940 --> 00:43:41,620 Alessandro Oppo: once we get sortition democracy, we'll find out where the population actually goes, what a democracy 718 00:43:41,625 --> 00:43:43,865 Alessandro Oppo: would actually decide. Quite frankly, 719 00:43:44,585 --> 00:43:45,465 Alessandro Oppo: different societies, 720 00:43:45,465 --> 00:43:52,185 Alessandro Oppo: the same structure of democracy will make different decisions based on the culture, the thought 721 00:43:52,585 --> 00:43:59,776 Alessandro Oppo: leaders in community, etcetera. They're not gonna be a monolith where all democracies are gonna do the same policies. They're gonna 722 00:43:59,776 --> 00:44:03,200 do different things based on the society they're in. But 723 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,000 Alessandro Oppo: I think that it is very true that 724 00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:07,600 Alessandro Oppo: the the the 725 00:44:07,945 --> 00:44:08,745 Alessandro Oppo: political, 726 00:44:08,745 --> 00:44:09,945 Alessandro Oppo: the economic 727 00:44:10,025 --> 00:44:10,985 Alessandro Oppo: aspect, 728 00:44:12,505 --> 00:44:16,025 Alessandro Oppo: I don't wanna belittle it because quite frankly, 729 00:44:16,665 --> 00:44:19,545 Alessandro Oppo: it in many ways may may be more 730 00:44:19,545 --> 00:44:20,425 Alessandro Oppo: crucial 731 00:44:20,905 --> 00:44:22,505 Alessandro Oppo: than the governmental structure. 732 00:44:23,310 --> 00:44:26,670 Alessandro Oppo: But my book is about the governmental structure, 733 00:44:26,910 --> 00:44:33,522 Alessandro Oppo: but I don't want to act like, oh, that's just economic sense. No. No. I agree. The the power of great wealth 734 00:44:33,522 --> 00:44:38,030 and it comes right into the elections too. I mean, not all countries have as 735 00:44:38,705 --> 00:44:41,105 Alessandro Oppo: corrupt a system of election refinance 736 00:44:41,665 --> 00:44:47,265 Alessandro Oppo: as The United States. But in The United States, it's just monumental where one individual 737 00:44:47,425 --> 00:44:50,785 Alessandro Oppo: can spend $230,000,000 738 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,080 Alessandro Oppo: to help get Trump. I was at 250, whatever, million dollars to help get Trump elected. 739 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,680 Alessandro Oppo: That is just insane 740 00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,760 Alessandro Oppo: that that kind of wealth first off, 741 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:07,834 Alessandro Oppo: that they can do it in the electoral system. You wanna make sure that in the jury system, a sortition system, it's 742 00:45:07,834 --> 00:45:14,530 more like a court jury where there's no campaign donations. There's no, there's no, outside influence. There's corruption. There's 743 00:45:14,530 --> 00:45:15,330 there's bribery 744 00:45:15,235 --> 00:45:19,395 Alessandro Oppo: laws, etcetera, etcetera. But the fact that the money can influence elections, 745 00:45:20,010 --> 00:45:24,330 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, it it does. It simply does. In every society, people with great will 746 00:45:24,570 --> 00:45:25,370 Alessandro Oppo: shape 747 00:45:25,370 --> 00:45:29,610 Alessandro Oppo: the the the debate, if not the exact election outcome. 748 00:45:30,490 --> 00:45:31,290 Alessandro Oppo: So 749 00:45:32,345 --> 00:45:35,785 Alessandro Oppo: but my notion is that with a true democracy, 750 00:45:35,785 --> 00:45:36,905 Alessandro Oppo: a sortition, 751 00:45:37,225 --> 00:45:38,825 Alessandro Oppo: that they might everyday 752 00:45:39,225 --> 00:45:40,025 Alessandro Oppo: people, 753 00:45:40,025 --> 00:45:43,705 Alessandro Oppo: according to polls right now in The United States, say that they think 754 00:45:43,945 --> 00:45:47,465 Alessandro Oppo: that this level of wealth and income inequality is unacceptable. 755 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,240 Alessandro Oppo: They think maybe rich people should have 756 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,400 Alessandro Oppo: maybe 10 times more wealth than ordinary people, 757 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,080 Alessandro Oppo: but not millions of times more wealth. 758 00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:04,477 Alessandro Oppo: So I think my idea, again, I sense that we all tend to think that every day people would agree with us. 759 00:46:04,477 --> 00:46:07,595 I think every day people would agree with my economic analysis 760 00:46:07,675 --> 00:46:10,155 Alessandro Oppo: of the problem of wealth inequality. 761 00:46:10,235 --> 00:46:16,075 Alessandro Oppo: But maybe I'm wrong, but it's I believe in democracy and what they say, 762 00:46:16,395 --> 00:46:20,150 Alessandro Oppo: what the people believe and agree to democratically 763 00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:22,950 Alessandro Oppo: through a sortation process, I I would accept. 764 00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:27,030 Terry Bouricious: It's it's very interesting what you say that that, 765 00:46:27,830 --> 00:46:30,950 Terry Bouricious: I mean, you can be leftist or, I mean, right wing, 766 00:46:31,525 --> 00:46:34,005 Terry Bouricious: and, they both agree about, 767 00:46:36,005 --> 00:46:37,765 Terry Bouricious: politicians being the problem. 768 00:46:38,485 --> 00:46:41,845 Terry Bouricious: And so I wonder if this could be a sort of alliances 769 00:46:42,165 --> 00:46:42,965 Terry Bouricious: between, 770 00:46:44,165 --> 00:46:46,405 Terry Bouricious: who is a left and who is a right wing. 771 00:46:47,130 --> 00:46:50,970 Alessandro Oppo: It's not a it's not a coincidence that I titled my book as I did, 772 00:46:51,690 --> 00:46:52,490 Alessandro Oppo: Democracy 773 00:46:52,490 --> 00:46:58,090 Alessandro Oppo: Without Politicians. I I could have said without elections, but then people go, what? It doesn't make any sense. 774 00:46:58,410 --> 00:47:04,053 Alessandro Oppo: Democracy requires elections. They it just the title doesn't make any sense to them. I mean, it makes sense to me because 775 00:47:04,053 --> 00:47:05,335 I think elections are undemocratic. 776 00:47:05,335 --> 00:47:09,735 Alessandro Oppo: But but by by making my foil, if you will, my enemy 777 00:47:10,055 --> 00:47:10,855 Alessandro Oppo: politicians 778 00:47:10,935 --> 00:47:18,853 Alessandro Oppo: and and as I say, I'm a recovering politician myself. I was a politician for twenty years. I I helped organize political 779 00:47:18,853 --> 00:47:26,770 parties. I I was involved with founding three different political parties in my time. So I was fully committed to the the 780 00:47:26,770 --> 00:47:27,850 political party structure. 781 00:47:28,565 --> 00:47:31,285 Alessandro Oppo: And it was an experience in British Columbia, 782 00:47:31,365 --> 00:47:34,325 Alessandro Oppo: a citizens assembly and everyday people 783 00:47:34,485 --> 00:47:38,005 Alessandro Oppo: that made me realize that last, you know, thirty years of my political 784 00:47:38,085 --> 00:47:38,885 Alessandro Oppo: effort 785 00:47:39,125 --> 00:47:40,405 Alessandro Oppo: was a mistake. 786 00:47:41,210 --> 00:47:45,770 Alessandro Oppo: That, building a political party was not the path to democracy, 787 00:47:45,930 --> 00:47:48,970 Alessandro Oppo: just a path to future battles with other parties. 788 00:47:50,170 --> 00:47:51,850 Alessandro Oppo: So yeah, it's, 789 00:47:52,490 --> 00:47:53,290 Alessandro Oppo: politicians 790 00:47:55,235 --> 00:47:56,995 Alessandro Oppo: can be a 791 00:47:58,355 --> 00:48:02,275 Alessandro Oppo: focus of, I believe ultimately a left right, 792 00:48:03,715 --> 00:48:08,230 Alessandro Oppo: unity. I mean, I think there are, there are, there are plenty of people in The United States. A lot of my 793 00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:09,030 book, 794 00:48:08,970 --> 00:48:15,601 Alessandro Oppo: I use examples from The United States. Although 90% of it is is relevant to people in any country, any place that 795 00:48:15,601 --> 00:48:21,930 has an election system, you don't have to although I use a lot of examples from US elections, are particularly horrible, 796 00:48:22,250 --> 00:48:25,615 Alessandro Oppo: but still most of the book is relevant to anybody. But the 797 00:48:25,775 --> 00:48:27,055 Alessandro Oppo: fact is that 798 00:48:28,095 --> 00:48:29,615 Alessandro Oppo: the people 799 00:48:29,615 --> 00:48:31,695 Alessandro Oppo: who voted for Trump, 800 00:48:32,575 --> 00:48:33,695 Alessandro Oppo: people on the right, 801 00:48:34,095 --> 00:48:41,260 Alessandro Oppo: a lot of them did it simply because they were disgusted at the status quo of politics. 802 00:48:41,420 --> 00:48:45,580 Alessandro Oppo: And there are some people, big name people who were like one of the biggest podcasters 803 00:48:45,580 --> 00:48:47,580 Alessandro Oppo: in the world, Joe Rogan. 804 00:48:47,740 --> 00:48:50,060 Alessandro Oppo: He was a big Bernie Sanders supporter. 805 00:48:50,485 --> 00:48:55,685 Alessandro Oppo: And when Bernie Sanders was was knocked out of the race by Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton, 806 00:48:55,765 --> 00:49:02,970 Alessandro Oppo: she's an elite, corrupt, horrible person. He went for Trump to shake things up. So the point is there are big name 807 00:49:02,970 --> 00:49:06,245 people who are neither left nor right. They're just anti 808 00:49:06,860 --> 00:49:07,660 Alessandro Oppo: corrupt 809 00:49:07,660 --> 00:49:09,260 Alessandro Oppo: politics as usual. 810 00:49:11,740 --> 00:49:12,540 Terry Bouricious: And 811 00:49:13,420 --> 00:49:16,620 Terry Bouricious: have you received any feedback from send from Sandy 812 00:49:18,780 --> 00:49:19,900 Terry Bouricious: from Bernie Sanders? 813 00:49:20,965 --> 00:49:22,005 Alessandro Oppo: Bernie 814 00:49:23,045 --> 00:49:24,485 Alessandro Oppo: Sanders did 815 00:49:24,885 --> 00:49:26,485 Alessandro Oppo: blurb my book. In other words, 816 00:49:27,365 --> 00:49:30,405 Alessandro Oppo: on my website, I have a quote from Bernie Sanders 817 00:49:30,565 --> 00:49:31,845 Alessandro Oppo: saying 818 00:49:32,005 --> 00:49:32,805 Alessandro Oppo: something like, 819 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:34,840 Alessandro Oppo: the book is 820 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:36,120 Alessandro Oppo: this is a well 821 00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,040 Alessandro Oppo: researched book on potential future of democracy. 822 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,680 Alessandro Oppo: Basically, saying that it's without him actually saying, 823 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:51,144 Alessandro Oppo: and I endorse its thesis. In other words, he's just saying, this is a this is an important good book about a 824 00:49:51,144 --> 00:49:52,275 potential future for democracy. 825 00:49:53,395 --> 00:49:58,595 Alessandro Oppo: But the truth is, I know Bernie. I I I've I've known him from 826 00:49:59,475 --> 00:50:05,995 Alessandro Oppo: long before. I in fact, I first I used to live with Bernie on I stayed on his couch for two months 827 00:50:05,995 --> 00:50:12,515 back in the nineteen seventies while I looked for an apartment because we were friends in, in a third party, minor, tiny 828 00:50:12,515 --> 00:50:16,960 little political party. So I've known Bernie for, for a long time and we're friends. 829 00:50:17,815 --> 00:50:25,575 Alessandro Oppo: But the fact is everything in his life has shown him that one politician 830 00:50:25,575 --> 00:50:26,375 Alessandro Oppo: can 831 00:50:26,695 --> 00:50:28,615 Alessandro Oppo: have a major influence. So 832 00:50:29,610 --> 00:50:31,770 Alessandro Oppo: although in his campaign 833 00:50:31,850 --> 00:50:36,730 Alessandro Oppo: for president a few years ago, he did say, it's not me, it's us. 834 00:50:37,850 --> 00:50:43,050 Alessandro Oppo: Still, I'm I'm not sure if he would fully endorse the idea 835 00:50:43,450 --> 00:50:47,905 Alessandro Oppo: of getting rid of elections and politicians because he's so 836 00:50:48,065 --> 00:50:51,265 Alessandro Oppo: deeply immersed in that. I I I've actually 837 00:50:51,425 --> 00:50:54,305 Alessandro Oppo: avoided asking him point blank. 838 00:50:54,465 --> 00:51:01,005 Alessandro Oppo: He likes my book. He he he blurbed my book. He thinks that it's an important book, and I'll just leave it 839 00:51:01,005 --> 00:51:01,805 at that. 840 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:05,040 Terry Bouricious: And a 841 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,400 Terry Bouricious: quite famous professor, Helene Landemore, 842 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:09,280 Terry Bouricious: also 843 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,120 Terry Bouricious: she wrote a book that has a similar title to yours. Yes. 844 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:14,720 Alessandro Oppo: Helene's book is 845 00:51:16,425 --> 00:51:18,185 Alessandro Oppo: Politics Without Politicians. 846 00:51:18,185 --> 00:51:20,105 Alessandro Oppo: I like mine better, Democracy. 847 00:51:20,105 --> 00:51:26,303 Alessandro Oppo: But yes, in fact, she and I have had email exchanges for years and years. I've read her book, several of her 848 00:51:26,303 --> 00:51:27,103 books. 849 00:51:28,190 --> 00:51:30,030 Alessandro Oppo: In fact, I just saw her 850 00:51:30,350 --> 00:51:36,590 Alessandro Oppo: a few days ago. I went down to Connecticut to be an observer at a citizen's assembly that she organized, 851 00:51:36,670 --> 00:51:37,870 Alessandro Oppo: a statewide 852 00:51:38,670 --> 00:51:44,303 Alessandro Oppo: citizen's assembly looking at an election reform issue, property tax reform issue that she organized. And so I asked her, can I 853 00:51:44,303 --> 00:51:49,936 come be an observer? And so I didn't have a lot of time to chat with her because she was really busy, 854 00:51:49,936 --> 00:51:53,265 but we touched base and we compared notes a little bit. So yes, 855 00:51:54,305 --> 00:51:56,785 Alessandro Oppo: she and I have a very 856 00:51:57,105 --> 00:51:57,905 Alessandro Oppo: similar 857 00:51:58,350 --> 00:51:59,390 Alessandro Oppo: analysis. 858 00:52:00,110 --> 00:52:00,910 Alessandro Oppo: My, 859 00:52:01,230 --> 00:52:02,030 Alessandro Oppo: my 860 00:52:02,590 --> 00:52:07,710 Alessandro Oppo: recipe for a final solution is a little bit different than hers. She she's 861 00:52:07,710 --> 00:52:14,645 Alessandro Oppo: avoided saying, and this is what we need to have. She's basically said, and this is why what we have right now 862 00:52:14,645 --> 00:52:15,445 doesn't work. 863 00:52:15,595 --> 00:52:17,515 Alessandro Oppo: And we need to use sortition. 864 00:52:17,595 --> 00:52:20,315 Alessandro Oppo: So, so I don't know if she 865 00:52:20,635 --> 00:52:22,315 Alessandro Oppo: embraces my full 866 00:52:22,875 --> 00:52:25,995 Alessandro Oppo: thesis about how we would reform the system, 867 00:52:26,315 --> 00:52:27,115 Alessandro Oppo: but 868 00:52:27,220 --> 00:52:31,700 Alessandro Oppo: she did do a lot of good work to help try and get my book published. So, so I, 869 00:52:32,500 --> 00:52:39,380 Alessandro Oppo: but, yeah, she's great. I, I, I, I, I'm just really impressed with her, both her writing and her organizing. 870 00:52:41,915 --> 00:52:43,275 Terry Bouricious: I was wondering if 871 00:52:45,515 --> 00:52:48,555 Terry Bouricious: maybe I didn't ask you something that you wanted to talk about. 872 00:52:50,075 --> 00:52:50,875 Alessandro Oppo: Gosh. 873 00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:55,750 Alessandro Oppo: Well, 874 00:52:56,310 --> 00:52:58,710 Alessandro Oppo: I just I'll just do a little bit more about 875 00:52:59,430 --> 00:53:02,070 Alessandro Oppo: couple of things. One one one little piece of history 876 00:53:02,470 --> 00:53:03,270 Alessandro Oppo: is 877 00:53:04,550 --> 00:53:06,710 Alessandro Oppo: people talk about today 878 00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:07,590 Alessandro Oppo: about 879 00:53:07,915 --> 00:53:08,955 Alessandro Oppo: democracy, 880 00:53:09,035 --> 00:53:12,795 Alessandro Oppo: and they mean elections. In fact, I think even in the UN 881 00:53:13,835 --> 00:53:15,195 Alessandro Oppo: charter, the the 882 00:53:15,675 --> 00:53:19,595 Alessandro Oppo: declaration of human rights, it talks about the right to elections and so on. 883 00:53:20,075 --> 00:53:21,195 Alessandro Oppo: And it's 884 00:53:21,195 --> 00:53:22,235 Alessandro Oppo: so ingrained. 885 00:53:23,020 --> 00:53:23,820 Alessandro Oppo: And 886 00:53:24,220 --> 00:53:25,660 Alessandro Oppo: so people assume 887 00:53:26,220 --> 00:53:32,620 Alessandro Oppo: that the founders of The United States were supporters of democracy, which they were not. They ardently opposed it. 888 00:53:33,020 --> 00:53:36,940 Alessandro Oppo: And also in France, the French Revolution, they say, oh, it's a democratic, 889 00:53:37,435 --> 00:53:41,435 Alessandro Oppo: the rising of democracy. No. They did not want a democracy. 890 00:53:41,835 --> 00:53:42,955 Alessandro Oppo: The French 891 00:53:43,275 --> 00:53:44,555 Alessandro Oppo: revolutionaries 892 00:53:45,035 --> 00:53:47,595 Alessandro Oppo: also wanted an aristocracy. 893 00:53:48,315 --> 00:53:54,330 Alessandro Oppo: They even had a two tier election system. Only certain people they, they, in fact, they talked about, 894 00:53:54,650 --> 00:53:58,490 Alessandro Oppo: was it active citizenship and the passive citizenship? 895 00:53:58,970 --> 00:54:01,450 Alessandro Oppo: If people didn't own property, 896 00:54:01,610 --> 00:54:08,135 Alessandro Oppo: then they shouldn't really be voting. And they had a system where they would have an assembly, a mass 897 00:54:08,695 --> 00:54:09,815 Alessandro Oppo: community meeting, 898 00:54:11,095 --> 00:54:16,375 Alessandro Oppo: and only certain people were allowed to be in that meeting. And they would elect people 899 00:54:17,290 --> 00:54:19,210 Alessandro Oppo: who were not going to the legislature. 900 00:54:20,250 --> 00:54:27,979 Alessandro Oppo: They were electing people who would then go to a regional meeting of other people who had been elected by these local 901 00:54:27,979 --> 00:54:28,779 municipal 902 00:54:28,410 --> 00:54:29,530 Alessandro Oppo: subgroup meetings 903 00:54:29,855 --> 00:54:36,255 Alessandro Oppo: and that group group, which would have filtered out the rabble and would be the lawyers, 904 00:54:36,335 --> 00:54:38,175 Alessandro Oppo: the merchants, the 905 00:54:38,975 --> 00:54:40,255 Alessandro Oppo: articulate people, 906 00:54:40,655 --> 00:54:47,058 Alessandro Oppo: they would elect from their small group people to go to the legislatures. They had a two tier election system to filter 907 00:54:47,058 --> 00:54:47,858 out any 908 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:53,960 Alessandro Oppo: working class people. Now there were a handful of people who were ardently pro working class, 909 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,280 Alessandro Oppo: but the French 910 00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,040 Alessandro Oppo: system was 911 00:54:58,835 --> 00:55:00,195 Alessandro Oppo: carefully constructed 912 00:55:00,595 --> 00:55:02,915 Alessandro Oppo: to prevent any risk of democracy. 913 00:55:03,395 --> 00:55:09,066 Alessandro Oppo: And people don't know that either. They don't know about the Americans. They don't know about the French. They assume that these 914 00:55:09,066 --> 00:55:10,355 no, they, these were aristocratic 915 00:55:10,355 --> 00:55:11,395 Alessandro Oppo: revolutions 916 00:55:11,795 --> 00:55:12,675 Alessandro Oppo: against 917 00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,760 Alessandro Oppo: the monarchy. And even in The United States, it wasn't really even against the monarchy. 918 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,080 Alessandro Oppo: They used King George in The United States as their foil, as their enemy. 919 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,200 Alessandro Oppo: But just ten years earlier, the continental Congress 920 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,680 Alessandro Oppo: had sent a letter to King George 921 00:55:28,115 --> 00:55:36,182 Alessandro Oppo: asking him to exert more authority over parliament because the taxes that they were objecting to were being passed by the parliament 922 00:55:36,182 --> 00:55:36,982 in London. 923 00:55:37,315 --> 00:55:43,235 Alessandro Oppo: And they wanted they thought they said, King George, you're being misled by your advisers. You need to stand up to parliament. 924 00:55:44,090 --> 00:55:51,285 Alessandro Oppo: And then when that didn't work and King George dismissed the letter, they said, okay. Well, we'll use King George as the 925 00:55:51,285 --> 00:55:55,210 enemy because a king is a better enemy than an elected parliament. 926 00:55:55,530 --> 00:56:00,395 Alessandro Oppo: And so in The United States, they started using King George, but he was symbolic. 927 00:56:00,635 --> 00:56:02,955 Alessandro Oppo: Basically they wanted to have a system almost 928 00:56:02,955 --> 00:56:05,755 Alessandro Oppo: the exact same system that Britain had, 929 00:56:06,315 --> 00:56:11,835 Alessandro Oppo: but transplanted The United States where they, the local ruling elites, aristocracy 930 00:56:11,835 --> 00:56:15,010 Alessandro Oppo: would be in charge instead of the aristocrats 931 00:56:15,010 --> 00:56:17,730 Alessandro Oppo: back in England. They wanted the British system. 932 00:56:17,970 --> 00:56:19,970 Alessandro Oppo: They wanted a king. In fact, they 933 00:56:20,690 --> 00:56:25,437 Alessandro Oppo: said, all right, we'll have an elected king. And they said, well, we shouldn't call him a king because we were attacking 934 00:56:25,437 --> 00:56:27,810 King George and so on. So we'll call him a president. 935 00:56:29,245 --> 00:56:31,405 Alessandro Oppo: But they still wanted an executive, 936 00:56:31,965 --> 00:56:39,411 Alessandro Oppo: who could veto things and who could make appointments and so on. So they used the model of the aristocracy of Britain 937 00:56:39,411 --> 00:56:40,765 to make the aristocracy, 938 00:56:40,765 --> 00:56:47,130 Alessandro Oppo: the oligarchy of The United States. And it did change over time. Expanding the voting rights did 939 00:56:47,850 --> 00:56:53,210 Alessandro Oppo: democratize it to some extent. But if you look at the people who get elected, yeah, there are some 940 00:56:53,610 --> 00:56:59,535 Alessandro Oppo: token working class people. There's, you can probably count on one hand how many genuinely working class 941 00:56:59,695 --> 00:57:03,455 Alessandro Oppo: members of Congress there are. And even in, in, in 942 00:57:04,335 --> 00:57:05,375 Alessandro Oppo: countries like 943 00:57:05,775 --> 00:57:06,895 Alessandro Oppo: Italy or 944 00:57:07,215 --> 00:57:08,655 Alessandro Oppo: Denmark or Sweden, 945 00:57:08,975 --> 00:57:12,655 Alessandro Oppo: there are a handful of working class people, but mostly 946 00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:14,150 Alessandro Oppo: they're professionals 947 00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:17,030 Alessandro Oppo: or business owners or wealthy. 948 00:57:17,430 --> 00:57:18,710 Alessandro Oppo: I 949 00:57:18,710 --> 00:57:20,070 Alessandro Oppo: don't want to dismiss 950 00:57:20,150 --> 00:57:22,550 Alessandro Oppo: the fact that there are working class allies 951 00:57:22,950 --> 00:57:28,495 Alessandro Oppo: on some of the, in some of the political parties, but the body as a whole is an aristocratic 952 00:57:28,495 --> 00:57:29,295 Alessandro Oppo: body. 953 00:57:29,855 --> 00:57:35,215 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know if that's exactly what I wanted to say, but that's something that occurred to me. 954 00:57:37,135 --> 00:57:43,860 Alessandro Oppo: Have this false notion that we have a democracy, and The United States say we need to defend the democracy from Trump. 955 00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:44,900 Alessandro Oppo: And I say, 956 00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:48,180 Alessandro Oppo: that's not gonna work because we don't have a democracy. 957 00:57:48,420 --> 00:57:56,188 Alessandro Oppo: Going back to the old way of a way it was before Trump was elected, we'll just invite another Trump because it's 958 00:57:56,188 --> 00:58:00,425 not democratic and people can see that. They think it the establishment 959 00:58:00,425 --> 00:58:01,225 Alessandro Oppo: bureaucracy 960 00:58:01,225 --> 00:58:02,025 Alessandro Oppo: of 961 00:58:02,025 --> 00:58:02,985 Alessandro Oppo: politicians 962 00:58:02,985 --> 00:58:05,945 Alessandro Oppo: is so corrupt that it needs to be overthrown. 963 00:58:06,870 --> 00:58:09,750 Alessandro Oppo: And so I tend to agree. I overthrown 964 00:58:09,830 --> 00:58:13,750 Alessandro Oppo: nonviolent. Have to be very clear. I'd never advocate any violence. 965 00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:18,950 Terry Bouricious: Yeah. It seems like we need a new design of democracy. 966 00:58:19,775 --> 00:58:22,095 Terry Bouricious: Yeah. And, and do you have, 967 00:58:22,575 --> 00:58:28,895 Terry Bouricious: let's say a final message for all the people that are working? Well, yes. A good thing is my book 968 00:58:29,855 --> 00:58:31,295 Alessandro Oppo: is because 969 00:58:31,375 --> 00:58:32,495 Alessandro Oppo: there's a 970 00:58:33,215 --> 00:58:34,015 Alessandro Oppo: person 971 00:58:34,170 --> 00:58:40,330 Alessandro Oppo: in The United States who thought my book was so important in terms of challenging the problems of climate change, 972 00:58:40,490 --> 00:58:41,290 Alessandro Oppo: AI, 973 00:58:42,010 --> 00:58:44,250 Alessandro Oppo: income and wealth inequality. 974 00:58:44,250 --> 00:58:50,297 Alessandro Oppo: He thinks my book is incredibly important. So he has paid a large fee to Routledge, which is this large, the one 975 00:58:50,297 --> 00:58:53,595 of the largest academic presses in the world that published my book. 976 00:58:54,075 --> 00:59:01,691 Alessandro Oppo: But they priced the paper book and the hardcover sort of like a textbook. It's very expensive. So he paid a large 977 00:59:01,691 --> 00:59:07,230 fee to Routledge to make the ebook version, whether it's Kindle or EPUB or a PDF 978 00:59:07,470 --> 00:59:09,150 Alessandro Oppo: version of the book free. 979 00:59:09,390 --> 00:59:10,910 Alessandro Oppo: So people can go to, 980 00:59:11,390 --> 00:59:16,750 Alessandro Oppo: you can go to Amazon and download the book for free, or you can go to my website, terribaricius.com. 981 00:59:17,545 --> 00:59:23,394 Alessandro Oppo: There's other ways you can access it too, and just download the book for free. I think it's a very important book 982 00:59:23,394 --> 00:59:26,585 and our goal is not for me to make money from royalties, 983 00:59:26,585 --> 00:59:28,905 Alessandro Oppo: but to get it as widely read as possible. 984 00:59:29,545 --> 00:59:35,150 Alessandro Oppo: So I encourage everybody to go to, to, you can also get it at Routledge, I believe. 985 00:59:35,550 --> 00:59:38,750 Alessandro Oppo: To their open access books section or 986 00:59:39,070 --> 00:59:42,830 Alessandro Oppo: Amazon or something like that. Go to terribaricious.com 987 00:59:42,990 --> 00:59:45,550 Alessandro Oppo: and you'll see a link there to download the book for free. 988 00:59:46,940 --> 00:59:48,860 Terry Bouricious: Thank you a lot, Terry. 989 00:59:49,180 --> 00:59:51,500 Alessandro Oppo: All right. It was very good to talk with you. 990 00:59:52,380 --> 00:59:54,780 Alessandro Oppo: Have good day. Thank you. All right. Bye bye. Bye bye.