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And you're Alessandro.

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Yes.

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So, welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator Podcast and our guest of today
is Paul Seitz.

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uh Thank you for your time.

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to be here with you, Alessandra.

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And as I said before, you're doing many things related to democracy and society and I
wonder how everything started.

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Yes, am a thanks Alexander.

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Really great to be here.

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Um, I feel like I love the title of your show, democracy innovators podcast.

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So I was excited to be on.

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Yeah.

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I am a physician by training actually, and I became a, an, expert in preventive medicine
and public health.

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And then I ended up shifting my career very early on into advocacy, campaigning and
movement building.

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And I worked globally, internationally, mainly in Sub-Saharan Africa and a little bit in
Latin America and Asia on global health mainly.

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And when I became an advocate, I realized that uh I wanted to do advocacy on other topics
beyond global health.

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So I worked on the climate emergency.

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I worked on the sustainable development goals, which is a broad framework for social,
economic and racial justice and uh

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I think when uh Trump got elected in 2016, I knew that we were at the beginning of
something that was going to be dangerous.

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And I think uh I didn't really realize how severe it was going to be until January 6th,
2021, when uh he invoked and sparked an insurrection on the Capitol that was a direct

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attack on our democracy.

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uh So in 2023, a couple years later, I kind of dropped my other projects and my other
advocacy efforts and I became a full throttle democracy activist.

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And uh I had to...

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I've done this before where I shape shift.

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go from working on this topic and I shape shift and I start going onto this topic.

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And so I really dug in deeply into the democracy ecosystem and I tried to understand who
all the actors were, what their agendas were, what was the cutting edge of transformation

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within the US democracy movement.

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And I guess I always started off with the premise that I learned from my global AIDS
advocacy, my global health advocacy is that whatever exists is necessary, but clearly it

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was insufficient because what was going on was crazy, right?

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We had an insurrection and there was no accountability.

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So maybe the democracy, quote unquote democracy that existed was...

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necessary, and all the advocacy that was underway and all the innovation that was underway
was necessary, but there was clearly something missing.

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Clearly it was insufficient.

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I spent the first year working on figuring this out for myself and with colleagues as we
endeavored to sort out a way forward.

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And what we came up with was deliberative democracy, citizens' assemblies.

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And the idea of linking that by bringing participatory democracy to change uh the other
side of the coin was...

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bringing that to update and transform our democracy, the structure and the systems of our
democracy through citizens assemblies to refresh the US Constitution.

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I have been studying the US Constitution for at least 30 years and...

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felt like it was very clear to me that it was a framework that was antiquated.

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It's 250 years old.

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It was set up as a system of oppression and it works really well.

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It's a fantastic, the rules that were created have continued to protect the elites and the
wealthy while oppressing the...

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the people of color and lower economic level people don't have a fair shot.

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Even if the rhetoric about it says that they do, they actually don't.

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And we also know that the democratic system in the United States was set up to...

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uh

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support and promote capitalism.

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And now we see the impact of unbridled global capitalism, both in the United States and
globally, and how that extraction of that extraction uh philosophy of extractive

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capitalism is destroying our opportunities for a livable future.

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So I mean, all these things were linked to the problem with the US democracy.

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So that was the big idea, which

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is to link deliberative democracy and citizens' assemblies to refreshing our U.S.

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Constitution.

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So in the beginning, once I clarified that that was the agenda, I brought that into the
ecosystem and people were like, you're crazy.

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You're being la no way.

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That's not possible.

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You know, so I like started educating people around me about the fact that in Europe, for
example, Ireland and France have used citizens assemblies at, with great success at the

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national level and local level.

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Iceland and uh other countries as well, Germany and Belgium.

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I'm not sure about what's going on in Italy, but I have uh seen other examples of success
in Europe, in Canada, North America, and now it's spreading all over the world.

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So in the United States, we've had very few citizens assemblies, maybe a dozen, and
they've all been really at the local level.

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Last year, no, in 2024, there was a breakthrough where there was the first ever statewide
citizens assembly in the state of New Hampshire.

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So that was like a big development.

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And now a year later, there's about six or 10 states that are now thinking about doing
citizens assemblies.

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So we're seeing a movement in the United States to really bring deliberative participatory
democracy to much larger scale.

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Then the other thing that's going on is that we have a backsliding of democracy.

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We have, in my view, an authoritarian leader and an authoritarian leaning government
running the entire government right now.

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And so they are trying to uh consolidate power very, very quickly.

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And so the pro-democracy movement is in uh a race for our lifetime.

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to see what will unfold here in the United States.

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We're really at a very exciting and dangerous time.

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And I was thinking what is uh democracy for you and also how do you imagine um let's say
uh democracy if citizen assembly are its...

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are widely used in all countries.

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So how this can uh change, let's say, the political system, because as you said, it is a
system that is quite old.

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It works.

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It has some problems.

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But it can also be in some way updated.

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Yes, so I mean the true dream would be that we would be able to amend the US Constitution.

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The goal that we have is to amend the US Constitution with a fourth branch of government,
a permanent citizens assembly.

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And this has happened in the city of Paris right now.

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They have a permanent citizens assembly and in eastern Belgium they have a permanent
citizens assembly.

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So you have uh chambers or branches of government we say

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that are elected like a Congress or a legislature.

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And then you have a citizens assembly, which is a group of people that are rotating, if
you will, they're selected randomly by sortition or by lottery.

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And they participate as policymakers for a period of time around whatever topic the
assembly is focused on.

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The Citizens' Assembly is a way of involving uh the public to get people's, uh harness the
wisdom of the population about what challenges they're actually facing.

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Because the role of government is to serve the collective wellbeing or the collective
flourishing of the people.

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So who's better to do that?

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uh the people are, the people have intelligence, they have lived experience, they have
ideas.

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And uh the politicians, they go into politics and they make a career of it, and then they
end up wanting to stay in power for a long time or forever.

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And uh they get attached to the power of it.

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and they are usually very wealthy, elite people anyway, so they're not necessarily in
touch with the real experience of the majority of people.

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So Citizens' Assembly helps reshuffle that.

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The other thing, and I want to make sure that we touch this, uh I'm extremely excited
about the opportunity that we have to harness the digital and...

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AI revolutions that are happening at the same time and harness those capabilities to bring
participatory deliberative democracy to scale for the whole system, for the whole

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population.

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As you know, there are methodologies like deliberative polling that was pioneered by
experts James Fishkin and Alice Su at uh Stanford University.

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There's other platforms like frankly, which is an online deliberation platform that was
pioneered out of Harvard University and Professor Lawrence Lessig.

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So uh there those are two of many there's a there's polis there's there's There's a
massive number.

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There's an explosion right now of technology platforms that are being developed to uh

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transform our democracy.

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There's uh mobile voting, which we don't have in the United States, but that technology
exists.

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There's uh digital democracy platforms being established to uh involve the public in
overseeing and holding elected politicians accountable.

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So the innovations that are going on,

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are massive and hard to track.

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But I do understand the general ecosystem, not all the details, but people now are seeing
that we need what they call a tech stack.

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There's a stack of technologies that you need to bring together when you're doing a
citizens assembly or when you're doing deliberative democracy.

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You have to complement it with ah these online participatory platforms.

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That's the deliberation aspect of technology.

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Then there's the other aspect of technology was the AI enhanced deliberative technology.

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That is changing everything right now because uh there's ways in which AI can be listening
and capturing uh conversations and capturing dialogue and then synthesizing that.

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ah that can be brought together in information that we can digest and then interpret.

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And that is just like opening up a whole world of possibility.

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And I mean now we have the technology but in some way maybe there is not maybe the
culture, the knowledge about these kind of tools.

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I mean I'm thinking about politicians sometimes they don't know maybe policy, they don't
know the SDM, they don't know the other kind of the different softwares and

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So I wonder how to bring this change, because in some way we can, let's say, educate
politicians about these kind of tools.

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uh And at the same time, probably there will be also young people that maybe know the
tools will become politicians.

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And so maybe they will propose to use these kind of tools.

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Or also the...

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There were some kind of experiment where some people decided to open a party or like to
run as a mayor in a town and also using some tools to extend their participation.

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So I wonder like in your vision how do you see it on a practical level?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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um At a practical level, right now there is a national movement of uh folks working on
citizens assembly.

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And a lot of the work is going on at the local level, at the city level or at the small
county level, the lowest level, if you will, of government.

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And uh what is happening is that uh a city council or

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is deciding that they have a difficult, challenging issue and they want to, they're stuck,
the politicians are stuck and they can't really sort it out.

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So there have been great examples uh in Colorado and California and Oregon where citizens
assemblies have been brought together and uh

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citizens are selected randomly, they go through a learning process, then they deliberate
and then they make recommendations.

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They come to a consensus on recommendations.

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And then the key thing is for those recommendations to be applied and to be followed up
on.

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And so uh that is happening now in cities across the United States, not everywhere.

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It's still very new.

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uh It's still not commonplace.

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But what my main response to your question is that we have to create pathways for people
to actually experience deliberative democracy and to see that it can work and to feel it

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and to live it.

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That's the only way.

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I think that we can get this to be taken up.

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Now we have an example where uh in the court system, in the judicial system of the United
States, we have jury duty where people are randomly selected from the public and it's a

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civic responsibility to sit on a jury.

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So that is something that people have experienced and they understand that.

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And so what we're saying is it's like

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duty for policy making and for law making and for refining our Constitution.

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The other thing that I think is really critical right now is that we're creating uh online
opportunities so that people can experience deliberation through technology.

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So right now, uh one of my favorite things going on right now is that there's a national
campaign that's just got launched last month called the People's Bill of Rights 250.

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And they are using, frankly, the online technology platform

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and they're launching 10 national deliberations on macro issues about the Constitution.

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So they're looking at, they're calling it a People's Bill of Rights, so they want to
create momentum and a movement for people to advocate for constitutional amendments.

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And so that is what is happening now in the United States.

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We're starting to see real innovation to bring this widely to the public.

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And we need to figure out how to get the media and the politicians educated and to start
covering this as a strong and viable pathway to uh heal and transform our democracy, which

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clearly is not working.

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And I believe we have to build a uh political movement.

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uh We call it a cross-partisan.

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We have to bring together Democrats, Republicans, and independents uh to uh embrace
citizens' assemblies and deliver to democracy.

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And I think we can do it.

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I know that we can do it.

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I think it's happening, actually.

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Now, I don't know how fast it will happen, but...

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uh

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The crisis of our democracy right now is accelerating very fast the uptake of a solution
like this, because people are looking for something.

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And this is the best thing out there.

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Quickly, I want to respond to your earlier question.

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You said, how do I define democracy?

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And I really go back to Abraham Lincoln.

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who very succinctly described democracy as a government of, by, and for the people.

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That's it.

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And that is a simple definition of what we're aspiring towards, a government of, by, and
for the people.

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Right now we have a democratic republic that is driven by the election system only.

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And it is a...

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system that is controlled by the dark money, the money from wealthy billionaires and
wealthy corporations that are driving and controlling the political system.

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We want to disrupt that, interrupt that, and bring uh a participatory, deliberative,
egalitarian democracy.

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And ultimately it's going to be, I believe we need to really reconstruct our constitution.

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and uh refresh it, I say, or rewrite it however you want to say it, amend it uh
significantly in order to uh achieve the goal that I just described.

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I mean I totally agree about the fact that it doesn't matter what our political opinion
about facts is.

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uh I mean we should all sit down at the table because the change is so big.

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um The change that can be done using technology is so big that I think that changes all
the political paradigms that we are used to.

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you can be left, right, whatever, we should all sit down at the table and discuss how to
create something better.

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But I was thinking also about something that I see as a sort of problem, because I'm also
very excited by citizen assemblies.

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In this precise moment, sometimes there is not the commitment.

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So let's say maybe a citizen assembly is organized by institutions, but not always the
output of the citizen assembly is uh something that the politician decide to follow.

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And I think that this is related to the attachment of power you were referring before.

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uh

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Yeah, no, I think you're right.

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That is the key.

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I do agree with you.

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If we go through all the time and effort and spend all the money to establish a citizens
assembly, then what you said is the key, which is how do you get the recommendations of a

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citizens assembly to be taken up and to hold the politicians accountable for it?

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And that is the central imperative, central priority of making sure that happens.

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It happens in two main ways.

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One is depending on who is uh funding and setting up the assembly, making sure that the
participants demand and set up the rules of the game so that their recommendations are

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taken up officially by the government that may be sponsoring.

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uh

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such as an assembly.

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There are also ways in which

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Right now, we're also looking at another track, is like accountability.

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So that if citizens themselves assert the right to assemble and they are successful in
being able to convene citizens assemblies and generate recommendations or proposals, for

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example, for constitutional amendments, we don't have a way to make the government take
them up, except through a political movement.

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And so that is what I think is what I'm focused on right now, which is building a
cross-partisan, a super majority political movement that agrees that the system of our

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democracy is broken and that it needs to be updated and modernized for the future.

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And uh that that movement can uh come to exist.

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hopefully quickly, relatively quickly, because we don't have a lot of time right here in
the United States.

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What we're seeing is that we have an authoritarian uh government right now, and an
authoritarian and anti-democratic.

202
00:23:30,103 --> 00:23:32,804
They're literally, they don't believe in democracy.

203
00:23:32,945 --> 00:23:34,145
And they are...

204
00:23:34,145 --> 00:23:35,481
uh

205
00:23:35,481 --> 00:23:47,770
They're in the midst of trying to take over capturing the election, meaning that it will,
it'll be like an elected authoritarian approach where they'll have like uh an election,

206
00:23:47,770 --> 00:23:51,783
but no one will have faith or trust in the outcome of it.

207
00:23:51,783 --> 00:23:55,405
And they'll get their people, you know, in control.

208
00:23:55,545 --> 00:24:01,509
And then they could rewrite the rules and entrenched their authoritarian rule for decades.

209
00:24:01,690 --> 00:24:02,570
So.

210
00:24:02,744 --> 00:24:07,417
You know, it's been hard here in the United States because no one ever thought it would be
possible here.

211
00:24:07,459 --> 00:24:13,284
Everyone was living in this like bubble of, or this dream, the American dream.

212
00:24:13,284 --> 00:24:15,046
Like how could this happen here?

213
00:24:15,046 --> 00:24:17,027
But now it's actually happening.

214
00:24:17,348 --> 00:24:27,677
And uh it's taken a bit of time for people to get their heads around the fact that this
crisis is actually happening here, right here and right now.

215
00:24:27,852 --> 00:24:33,623
It's been going on for a decade um and now it's coming ahead over the next year or two.

216
00:24:33,623 --> 00:24:38,201
it'll be exciting and interesting times for sure.

217
00:24:39,624 --> 00:24:45,738
Yeah, usually interesting times are not the ones, are not the best times, but...

218
00:24:45,738 --> 00:24:46,530
the best time.

219
00:24:46,530 --> 00:24:48,866
mean, it's, you know, it's a tough time.

220
00:24:48,866 --> 00:24:49,228
Yeah.

221
00:24:49,228 --> 00:24:49,959
Yeah.

222
00:24:49,959 --> 00:25:03,474
I wonder, why do you think, you know, in democratic society where there are liberal
democracy systems, every now and then people decide to democratically elect someone that

223
00:25:03,474 --> 00:25:05,096
is not pro-democracy?

224
00:25:05,096 --> 00:25:09,020
It's a sort of contradiction we see often.

225
00:25:12,034 --> 00:25:18,482
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a flaw of the concept of what you said, you called it electoral
democracy.

226
00:25:18,482 --> 00:25:28,114
um It's the idea that uh that is actually representing the true views of the public.

227
00:25:28,214 --> 00:25:31,177
In the United States, for example,

228
00:25:31,247 --> 00:25:44,827
We, many of our elections, you only have maybe 40, 50, if it's a really great election,
you only get to like 60 % of eligible voters who are actually even participating.

229
00:25:45,047 --> 00:25:58,547
So you have a large, vast number of people, 40%, 50 % of people who should be voting or
could be voting, and they don't even participate, they're checked out.

230
00:25:58,615 --> 00:26:07,022
So then what happens is you get a, then the, of the people that are voting, they're split
as partisans, you know?

231
00:26:07,022 --> 00:26:13,508
So you have a small group of partisans ah that are driving the political system.

232
00:26:13,508 --> 00:26:21,694
You have a small swing voter ah group in the middle that can swing it left or right.

233
00:26:22,095 --> 00:26:25,338
And I think what I'm hope, what I believe is that,

234
00:26:25,644 --> 00:26:28,715
Right now in the United States, there's only two choices.

235
00:26:28,715 --> 00:26:32,136
There's the Republican Party and the Democratic Party.

236
00:26:32,397 --> 00:26:34,828
And I know myself, I'm an independent.

237
00:26:34,828 --> 00:26:37,019
I'm a registered independent.

238
00:26:37,019 --> 00:26:41,140
I always have been, and I always will be, independent.

239
00:26:41,820 --> 00:26:49,304
And now the data is showing that the majority of eligible voters in the United States are
independent.

240
00:26:49,304 --> 00:26:52,925
They're fed up with the two parties and they're not participating.

241
00:26:52,925 --> 00:26:55,846
uh

242
00:26:56,066 --> 00:26:58,487
That's an opportunity, I see.

243
00:26:58,547 --> 00:27:09,430
Because uh then if the parties lose their control of the political system, then we can
come forward with a cross-partisan.

244
00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:10,898
We want to work with them.

245
00:27:10,898 --> 00:27:12,771
We want to bring independence forward.

246
00:27:12,771 --> 00:27:20,574
We want to work with Democrats, and we want to work with principled Republicans,
pro-democracy Republicans.

247
00:27:20,574 --> 00:27:22,274
And there are a lot of them.

248
00:27:22,392 --> 00:27:32,049
There are a lot of traditional Republicans that believe in the rule of law and believe in
the system of government that allows the people's voice to be heard.

249
00:27:32,349 --> 00:27:44,348
The other thing we have to do is get money out of politics because the money, the
billionaire class and the way the Supreme Court has operated has allowed the money uh to

250
00:27:44,348 --> 00:27:46,980
control the whole political system.

251
00:27:46,980 --> 00:27:49,922
Obviously that is not working and...

252
00:27:50,137 --> 00:27:59,512
The good news is that about 90 % of Americans agree that money in politics has ruined the
system and the system is broken.

253
00:27:59,593 --> 00:28:02,894
So we have a consensus on that.

254
00:28:02,995 --> 00:28:15,422
Now the question is how do we build a political movement that's cross-partisan that can
actually advance this agenda that we're talking about, renewing American democracy.

255
00:28:15,702 --> 00:28:26,127
fixing the transforming the election system, transforming the structure of government to
make sure that the people's voice is never marginalized.

256
00:28:26,187 --> 00:28:29,489
It's central to how we operate our government.

257
00:28:29,489 --> 00:28:31,310
And I think that's possible.

258
00:28:33,463 --> 00:28:38,368
The question how to build the political movement, it's a good question.

259
00:28:38,368 --> 00:28:40,654
um

260
00:28:40,654 --> 00:28:48,454
Well, you'll see on March 28th, you know, a very, largest political movement protest in US
history.

261
00:28:49,014 --> 00:28:54,514
You'll see over 3000 events happening in the United States.

262
00:28:54,514 --> 00:28:59,174
And I know there'll be events globally on that day as well.

263
00:28:59,414 --> 00:29:08,994
In solidarity with this, that the United States cannot become a fascist authoritarian.

264
00:29:09,674 --> 00:29:15,257
ruler, um country, or we can't continue to let that happen.

265
00:29:15,537 --> 00:29:18,299
And the movement here is getting very strong.

266
00:29:18,299 --> 00:29:20,259
I've never seen anything like it.

267
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:32,426
I'm 63, so I'm m But in my lifetime, I guess the civil rights movement was something like
this, but that was really driven by a certain subpopulation.

268
00:29:32,685 --> 00:29:43,363
This movement is cross-partisan, it's across the political spectrum, it's across the
racial spectrum, and it's starting to become across the economic spectrum.

269
00:29:43,363 --> 00:29:55,051
Because even business owners and business leaders are recognizing that this government and
this, uh the threat of an authoritarian dictatorship in the United States is real.

270
00:29:55,312 --> 00:29:59,234
And it's not what the majority of people want.

271
00:30:00,367 --> 00:30:11,458
So you'll also see activists and action happening going into May Day, May 1st, which is
the Global Workers' Day.

272
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:21,650
And I think that we're going to see really powerful uh resistance uh and non-cooperation
emerging.

273
00:30:23,011 --> 00:30:37,220
We saw that in Minneapolis, Minnesota just last month, where the local population pushed
back against the ICE, the police force that was kidnapping people off the street and

274
00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:39,862
killing citizens, you know, at gunpoint.

275
00:30:39,862 --> 00:30:44,264
uh People are not going to put up with that, I hope.

276
00:30:47,002 --> 00:31:04,594
We saw that the local people in Minneapolis organized the national movement came in to
support the local leaders that were leading that and it had an effect of pushing back the

277
00:31:04,594 --> 00:31:05,815
authoritarian project.

278
00:31:05,815 --> 00:31:10,699
uh It wasn't perfect, but it was really powerful, you know.

279
00:31:10,699 --> 00:31:15,582
And I got really scared because I've been talking to experts and they've been saying,

280
00:31:15,918 --> 00:31:23,158
that our country could end up becoming, there could be a civil conflict.

281
00:31:23,158 --> 00:31:29,198
We could go from political violence, which has been really dramatically increasing.

282
00:31:30,358 --> 00:31:41,358
There were 150 political violent attacks in 2025, in the first half of 2025, and that was
more than double of the year before.

283
00:31:41,398 --> 00:31:44,858
I don't have the full data for all of 2025 yet.

284
00:31:45,475 --> 00:31:53,918
But uh we're seeing a big uptick in political violence and some experts say that it could
be a tipping point.

285
00:31:54,019 --> 00:32:09,125
And in Minnesota, what we witnessed was the state military forces like the state national
guard, the state police forces were pitted against the federal forces, the ICE agents and

286
00:32:09,125 --> 00:32:13,567
the border control people that were there from the federal government.

287
00:32:13,567 --> 00:32:15,508
And you could even feel

288
00:32:15,508 --> 00:32:21,892
the possibility of military on military conflict internally within the United States.

289
00:32:21,993 --> 00:32:27,927
That is like shocking and unexpected by most people.

290
00:32:27,927 --> 00:32:34,502
No one thought that could happen here, but it can and we have to prevent it from
expanding.

291
00:32:34,743 --> 00:32:37,264
The authoritarian people, they want that.

292
00:32:37,264 --> 00:32:43,029
They want to expand uh uncertainty, unpredictability.

293
00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:44,790
They want to raise fear.

294
00:32:45,203 --> 00:32:50,134
And that is how they gain control of the minds of the population.

295
00:32:50,209 --> 00:32:54,827
Yeah, is something that historically has always worked.

296
00:32:55,266 --> 00:32:56,817
Yeah, yeah.

297
00:32:56,817 --> 00:32:58,678
don't, you know, I, you're right.

298
00:32:58,678 --> 00:33:05,633
And they're really good at deploying it and using it, manipulating the mind.

299
00:33:05,653 --> 00:33:12,218
Of course, social media and the media ecosystem, which you were, you know, we're talking
about technology.

300
00:33:12,218 --> 00:33:23,796
uh We, we call it information chaos and uh no one believes the truth anymore or no one
knows what the truth is anymore.

301
00:33:23,938 --> 00:33:31,022
The AI enhanced social media has created confusion and lack of trust.

302
00:33:31,022 --> 00:33:35,721
So these are some of the downsides of technology that have to be addressed.

303
00:33:36,814 --> 00:33:41,888
Yeah, then also historically like information was always something that...

304
00:33:41,888 --> 00:33:47,732
uh I mean, also in some way related to power.

305
00:33:48,954 --> 00:33:54,418
So I think that also before, let's say, AI, was...

306
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:05,587
You know, also we were saying money and politics and also information sometimes is at the
service.

307
00:34:06,069 --> 00:34:08,203
money or politics.

308
00:34:08,662 --> 00:34:09,513
Yeah, exactly.

309
00:34:09,513 --> 00:34:11,594
Yeah, I mean, very, very true.

310
00:34:11,594 --> 00:34:12,204
Yeah.

311
00:34:12,204 --> 00:34:17,227
Well, the money is used to control the media and the communication systems.

312
00:34:17,568 --> 00:34:19,409
So that's, that's right.

313
00:34:19,409 --> 00:34:20,950
I mean, and

314
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:35,050
You know, the authoritarians have been very aggressive this year, this past year, since
Trump came back into office to really disrupt the media and take control of it um through

315
00:34:35,050 --> 00:34:40,944
corporate takeovers and through bullying tactics and pressure tactics.

316
00:34:40,944 --> 00:34:48,770
So the idea of the free press and the right of free speech that is connected to

317
00:34:49,058 --> 00:34:57,187
the freedom of the press is definitely being attacked and challenged by this government.

318
00:34:57,187 --> 00:35:00,530
So in a way that's never happened before.

319
00:35:01,399 --> 00:35:16,184
I mean, also we were talking about power, I mean, can be institutional power, then we were
talking about economic power, then also informational power, and when all this kind of

320
00:35:16,184 --> 00:35:26,007
power are, I mean, when a person has all those powers together, then of course it's a
concentration of power that...

321
00:35:28,461 --> 00:35:31,378
can lead to something not good.

322
00:35:34,146 --> 00:35:41,041
Still I see, like, this is something that I cannot really understand how...

323
00:35:41,642 --> 00:35:54,242
but in some ways similar to the question that I made before, like, why uh people every now
and then want uh a person, you know, the strong man that can take care of everything, and

324
00:35:54,242 --> 00:36:03,259
this happened in the past, and usually that person was using fear, uh because it works.

325
00:36:04,811 --> 00:36:21,103
And so, yeah, I was thinking about, again, how to build a political movement that is maybe
aiming for not being partisan.

326
00:36:21,724 --> 00:36:31,691
So going over the differences that sometimes, as you said, it doesn't matter in which
party you are.

327
00:36:32,253 --> 00:36:35,586
it can be that you are pro uh dialogue.

328
00:36:38,293 --> 00:36:44,062
So yeah, mean, those are still open questions.

329
00:36:44,062 --> 00:36:45,022
Yeah, what's your question?

330
00:36:45,022 --> 00:36:45,982
Sorry, go ahead.

331
00:36:45,982 --> 00:36:47,541
What's the question you have?

332
00:36:47,541 --> 00:36:49,074
No, no, no, it was just...

333
00:36:49,074 --> 00:36:58,874
uh Those are some open questions to me uh that I still haven't been able to give an
answer.

334
00:36:59,136 --> 00:36:59,859
Mm.

335
00:37:01,101 --> 00:37:02,153
Just a...

336
00:37:02,497 --> 00:37:03,879
Also, I mean...

337
00:37:04,685 --> 00:37:05,785
No, no, please.

338
00:37:07,182 --> 00:37:08,742
No, I want to hear what you have to say.

339
00:37:08,742 --> 00:37:09,542
Go ahead.

340
00:37:10,051 --> 00:37:20,271
No, I was asking you a question regarding the podcast because maybe some of with some of
your guests you had some discussion related to this

341
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,662
yeah, yeah, Yeah, so again, you're right.

342
00:37:26,662 --> 00:37:31,063
I agree with you that they use fear and very successfully.

343
00:37:31,063 --> 00:37:39,376
So when people are feeling economic uncertainty or they're feeling unpredictability,
they're looking for a solution.

344
00:37:39,376 --> 00:37:45,378
And so a fear-based powerful leader looks like they're gonna come in and solve the
problem.

345
00:37:45,699 --> 00:37:52,382
The challenge as I described is that the political system allows for a minority of people.

346
00:37:52,382 --> 00:37:55,783
It's almost what I call a monarcharian rule.

347
00:37:55,803 --> 00:38:07,888
The way that our political system in the United States is working right now, a minority of
people could uh kind of jigger the system and then can get elected through it.

348
00:38:07,888 --> 00:38:10,149
That's what happened with Donald Trump.

349
00:38:11,110 --> 00:38:12,010
So.

350
00:38:12,204 --> 00:38:13,174
Both times.

351
00:38:13,174 --> 00:38:16,616
The first time he didn't even have the majority of votes.

352
00:38:16,776 --> 00:38:19,657
The second time he did get the majority of votes.

353
00:38:20,217 --> 00:38:34,793
But the way that the political system is structured, the large states where the bulk of
the population lives did not have a fair impact on determining the outcome of the

354
00:38:34,793 --> 00:38:35,684
election.

355
00:38:35,684 --> 00:38:41,946
So the system is broken in that it's set up by design.

356
00:38:41,998 --> 00:38:47,558
from the original founders 250 years ago for there to be a minoritarian rule.

357
00:38:47,558 --> 00:38:50,358
And that's what we think needs to be healed.

358
00:38:50,458 --> 00:39:05,198
We need to shift the way the system works to allow for the majority positions to lead the
policy making and law making and the way the constitution operates.

359
00:39:05,578 --> 00:39:06,308
on the one hand.

360
00:39:06,308 --> 00:39:16,743
On the other hand, we have to make sure that minority perspectives are not ignored, that
they are also considered and that they're also addressed by the majority.

361
00:39:16,843 --> 00:39:22,406
And that's what um the Citizens' Assemblies in Deliberative Democracy does.

362
00:39:22,606 --> 00:39:28,629
And I don't know if you've heard of Helene Landemore, who is a French political scientist.

363
00:39:28,629 --> 00:39:30,990
She just published this book called

364
00:39:30,990 --> 00:39:35,994
uh Politics Without Politicians, The Case for Citizen Rule.

365
00:39:36,155 --> 00:39:43,480
And she talks about how through citizens assemblies, you can actually reestablish trust.

366
00:39:43,561 --> 00:39:47,264
And you can, it's based on love actually between people.

367
00:39:47,264 --> 00:39:53,669
um And for me, it's about revealing the truth of our interdependence.

368
00:39:53,997 --> 00:40:00,191
Like uh we are actually not independent of each other, you and me even, or me and any
other person.

369
00:40:00,191 --> 00:40:02,252
We're all interdependent.

370
00:40:02,513 --> 00:40:08,577
And then uh we experience interdependence as love and trust.

371
00:40:10,018 --> 00:40:15,461
And uh the power of citizens assemblies is that it can...

372
00:40:15,990 --> 00:40:20,844
restore love and trust collectively at scale for the population.

373
00:40:20,844 --> 00:40:26,479
And so that is why I'm so committed to bringing forward deliberative democracy.

374
00:40:26,479 --> 00:40:34,525
I think it's the only way for us to heal these broken systems that are, as you said,
designed based on fear.

375
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:41,635
So the political movement that is building now, I'm just one person.

376
00:40:41,635 --> 00:40:50,081
It's a vast movement of movements of organizations and networks that are aligning and
converging right now.

377
00:40:50,081 --> 00:40:55,385
ah And it's coming forward as no kings on March 28th and...

378
00:40:55,385 --> 00:40:57,428
uh

379
00:40:57,428 --> 00:41:02,270
May Day will be a non-cooperation effort and other things are happening.

380
00:41:02,270 --> 00:41:05,771
So the people are rising in the United States.

381
00:41:05,771 --> 00:41:11,304
People that believe in government being a government of, by and for the people.

382
00:41:11,464 --> 00:41:23,829
A government that wants to recognize our interdependence and wants to be a force for peace
in the world rather than what we're seeing now.

383
00:41:24,049 --> 00:41:26,290
A force of violence and

384
00:41:27,306 --> 00:41:31,434
It's this is not the American people are not behind this.

385
00:41:31,576 --> 00:41:34,081
We're just trapped in a broken system.

386
00:41:35,970 --> 00:41:37,741
Yeah, I here we...

387
00:41:37,942 --> 00:41:39,443
I have the interview here.

388
00:41:39,443 --> 00:41:42,645
We published the interview a couple of weeks ago.

389
00:41:42,746 --> 00:41:44,086
And...

390
00:41:45,147 --> 00:41:47,329
And as a...

391
00:41:47,329 --> 00:42:00,959
I mean, the last question is if you have a message for the people that are working on uh
civic tech or like a deliberative democracy that are searching for new solutions.

392
00:42:01,408 --> 00:42:03,999
Yeah, I mean, I think that the work is critical.

393
00:42:03,999 --> 00:42:13,225
um I think that Europe, for the most part, is leading the way right now in bringing
forward this kind of deliberative democracy.

394
00:42:13,638 --> 00:42:22,570
I mean, for example, the EU uh has a EU wide referendum, a mechanism that exists within
the EU charter.

395
00:42:22,998 --> 00:42:25,859
In the United States, we don't have a national referendum.

396
00:42:25,859 --> 00:42:31,241
There's no way for the people to implement a referendum at the national level here.

397
00:42:31,602 --> 00:42:37,504
And only 22 states have some mechanism for that, uh for a statewide referendum.

398
00:42:37,704 --> 00:42:40,785
So uh Europe has led the way in that.

399
00:42:40,785 --> 00:42:52,570
uh Europe's uh countries and cities are leading the way in bringing citizens' assemblies
to scale in many countries around the European continent.

400
00:42:53,403 --> 00:42:58,952
I think the United States, I think the technology assisted...

401
00:42:58,952 --> 00:43:00,614
um

402
00:43:00,972 --> 00:43:12,849
component of it is really happening and uh we're about to start seeing it applied here
domestically in new and large scale ways.

403
00:43:13,069 --> 00:43:17,332
So I think that my message is really like, let's do it, it's time.

404
00:43:17,332 --> 00:43:18,642
We gotta bring it forward now.

405
00:43:18,642 --> 00:43:21,414
Let's find a way to work together.

406
00:43:21,894 --> 00:43:24,276
Find a way to converge your efforts.

407
00:43:24,276 --> 00:43:27,778
Find a way of like bringing people together.

408
00:43:28,148 --> 00:43:42,084
not only individual people, but institutions and organizations, they have to converge and
work together to go to scale um and to bring it to all 50 states and then to bring it to

409
00:43:42,084 --> 00:43:43,195
the nation.

410
00:43:43,336 --> 00:43:47,400
That's what we see is happening now and we want to accelerate that.

411
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:48,921
And so it's like,

412
00:43:49,345 --> 00:43:57,580
It's a shift because people are used to setting up their own, I don't know about in Italy,
but in the United States, there's like this rugged individualism culture.

413
00:43:57,580 --> 00:44:00,923
So everyone goes up and sets up their own little thing.

414
00:44:00,923 --> 00:44:12,050
And then you end up having like uh a lot of parallel siloed small scale efforts that are
all beautiful and all really interesting and innovative.

415
00:44:12,428 --> 00:44:20,622
However, they're not having the impact because it's like a thousand flowers are blooming
and it's a beautiful thing, honestly.

416
00:44:20,622 --> 00:44:22,623
There's beauty in that diversity.

417
00:44:22,623 --> 00:44:36,729
And all we're saying is like, let's tie a ribbon around it and have a bouquet so that all
that effort can be brought forward in a beautiful way to have an impact, to change policy,

418
00:44:36,729 --> 00:44:42,672
change laws and change our constitution with uh the

419
00:44:42,672 --> 00:44:46,875
voice and the collective wisdom of the people of the United States.

420
00:44:47,076 --> 00:44:52,420
And I think we're on the, I believe that we're on the cusp of a breakthrough.

421
00:44:52,420 --> 00:44:56,864
So it's like having hope and belief that we can actually do that.

422
00:44:57,004 --> 00:44:57,965
That's the problem.

423
00:44:57,965 --> 00:45:08,770
The fear that we talked about leaves people in despair and hopelessness and uh feeling
like there's nothing we can do about it.

424
00:45:08,770 --> 00:45:12,353
They throw up their hands and they're just trying to survive.

425
00:45:12,474 --> 00:45:13,594
And I understand that.

426
00:45:13,594 --> 00:45:14,375
That's real.

427
00:45:14,375 --> 00:45:15,816
That's legitimate.

428
00:45:16,237 --> 00:45:25,925
And uh we're trying to convince people that while we're surviving, we can also build a
better system and a better future.

429
00:45:28,405 --> 00:45:30,259
So thank you, Paul.

430
00:45:30,582 --> 00:45:31,723
Thank you again.

431
00:45:32,834 --> 00:45:35,269
Thank you for uh your questions.

432
00:45:35,269 --> 00:45:36,493
Appreciate you.

433
00:45:36,493 --> 00:45:39,079
If you have anything else to add

434
00:45:41,420 --> 00:45:45,242
No, I thank you for finding me and for including me on your show.

435
00:45:45,242 --> 00:45:48,208
Please send me it and I'll make sure I get it out.

436
00:45:49,593 --> 00:45:50,234
I