1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,120 Alessandro Oppo: Technology 2 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,160 Alessandro Oppo: which tends to centralization 3 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,840 Alessandro Oppo: is never a good thing for democracy. 4 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,480 Alessandro Oppo: If the technology tends to to 5 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:11,280 Alessandro Oppo: be, 6 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:12,480 Alessandro Oppo: you know, 7 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:14,080 Alessandro Oppo: centralized, 8 00:00:14,545 --> 00:00:18,305 Alessandro Oppo: and that is clearly the ambition of the developers of AI, 9 00:00:18,385 --> 00:00:19,185 Alessandro Oppo: then 10 00:00:19,905 --> 00:00:22,785 Alessandro Oppo: that we must insist on decentralization. 11 00:00:22,785 --> 00:00:29,665 Paul Nemitz: Welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator podcast. My name is Alessandro Popp, and our guest of today is Paul Nimitz. 12 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,040 Paul Nemitz: Sorry for the pronunciation, and thank you for being here. 13 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:35,200 Alessandro Oppo: Thank you. And 14 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:38,000 Paul Nemitz: and, yeah, I have 15 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,600 Paul Nemitz: I mean, the first question is if you can tell us something about you 16 00:00:44,345 --> 00:00:48,825 Paul Nemitz: because you work on many things, and so if you'd like to give us some 17 00:00:49,865 --> 00:00:51,545 Alessandro Oppo: Sure. I'm a 18 00:00:51,945 --> 00:00:55,385 Alessandro Oppo: visiting professor at the College of Europe in Brussels, 19 00:00:55,945 --> 00:00:57,785 Alessandro Oppo: in in in Bruges, 20 00:00:57,785 --> 00:01:02,070 Alessandro Oppo: in Belgium near Brussels, where I teach 21 00:01:02,070 --> 00:01:04,790 Alessandro Oppo: a postgrad seminar 22 00:01:04,950 --> 00:01:06,950 Alessandro Oppo: on AI law and 23 00:01:07,110 --> 00:01:08,550 Alessandro Oppo: data protection law. 24 00:01:09,910 --> 00:01:12,390 Alessandro Oppo: I do this as a retiree. 25 00:01:12,470 --> 00:01:13,750 Alessandro Oppo: I was 26 00:01:14,605 --> 00:01:16,445 Alessandro Oppo: director in the European Commission 27 00:01:16,525 --> 00:01:18,125 Alessandro Oppo: for fundamental rights, 28 00:01:18,365 --> 00:01:20,845 Alessandro Oppo: and citizen rights and special 29 00:01:20,845 --> 00:01:21,645 Alessandro Oppo: adviser, 30 00:01:21,645 --> 00:01:23,165 Alessandro Oppo: also principal adviser, 31 00:01:23,805 --> 00:01:25,085 Alessandro Oppo: on the digital transition. 32 00:01:25,970 --> 00:01:30,450 Alessandro Oppo: And in this context, I learned about the digital. I had my own playful 33 00:01:30,450 --> 00:01:32,610 Alessandro Oppo: approach to the digital as a lawyer, 34 00:01:33,250 --> 00:01:36,370 Alessandro Oppo: because I was the lead director on 35 00:01:37,010 --> 00:01:38,210 Alessandro Oppo: the GDPR, 36 00:01:38,210 --> 00:01:39,490 Alessandro Oppo: bringing GDPR 37 00:01:40,195 --> 00:01:41,715 Alessandro Oppo: onto the law books. 38 00:01:42,595 --> 00:01:45,475 Alessandro Oppo: I I led the whole conceptual preparation 39 00:01:45,475 --> 00:01:47,635 Alessandro Oppo: and and the negotiations. 40 00:01:48,275 --> 00:01:50,595 Alessandro Oppo: And, and that basically, 41 00:01:51,475 --> 00:01:55,555 Alessandro Oppo: was such a learning experience that I stayed on 42 00:01:56,050 --> 00:02:00,290 Alessandro Oppo: as, let's say, the principal adviser on on digital transition, 43 00:02:01,170 --> 00:02:08,290 Alessandro Oppo: and all the following legal acts I I was also involved in, like the AI Act, the Data Act, and so 44 00:02:09,265 --> 00:02:16,494 Alessandro Oppo: Not as a lead director. Only, the DGPR was, I was in the lead because my directorate general, DG Justice in the 45 00:02:16,494 --> 00:02:18,465 European Commission was in the lead. 46 00:02:18,785 --> 00:02:23,265 Alessandro Oppo: All the later acts giving shape to the digital sphere 47 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,520 Alessandro Oppo: were led by a different director general, namely 48 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:30,440 Alessandro Oppo: DG CONNECT, 49 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,920 Alessandro Oppo: which I would say is, let's say, the more engineering oriented director 50 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:35,720 Alessandro Oppo: general. 51 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:43,335 Paul Nemitz: And what is important to take into account when we talk about, digital trans transition or transformation? 52 00:02:43,335 --> 00:02:44,935 Alessandro Oppo: Well, it is important, 53 00:02:45,175 --> 00:02:46,055 Alessandro Oppo: that 54 00:02:46,535 --> 00:02:49,175 Alessandro Oppo: the digital transition and also now, 55 00:02:49,415 --> 00:02:51,655 Alessandro Oppo: the transition to a world 56 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:53,760 Alessandro Oppo: shaped by AI 57 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,000 Alessandro Oppo: does not lead 58 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,640 Alessandro Oppo: to a world where democracy 59 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,120 Alessandro Oppo: doesn't function anymore, where fundamental rights count for nothing. 60 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,160 Alessandro Oppo: I think we have to engage 61 00:03:06,825 --> 00:03:08,105 Alessandro Oppo: and revive, 62 00:03:08,345 --> 00:03:10,265 Alessandro Oppo: both fundamental rights 63 00:03:10,425 --> 00:03:11,225 Alessandro Oppo: and, 64 00:03:11,385 --> 00:03:12,505 Alessandro Oppo: democracy. 65 00:03:13,065 --> 00:03:18,185 Alessandro Oppo: And, and I think that's that's a very, very important challenge because otherwise, 66 00:03:19,590 --> 00:03:20,390 Alessandro Oppo: technology 67 00:03:20,390 --> 00:03:27,910 Alessandro Oppo: and the companies behind the technology, they will just take over. They will rule us and our lives and our societies. 68 00:03:28,550 --> 00:03:30,790 Paul Nemitz: Yeah. There is a lot of concentration 69 00:03:30,790 --> 00:03:31,750 Paul Nemitz: of power 70 00:03:32,150 --> 00:03:33,510 Paul Nemitz: among who, 71 00:03:34,295 --> 00:03:36,535 Paul Nemitz: I mean, I'm thinking about the big tech 72 00:03:36,935 --> 00:03:41,895 Alessandro Oppo: and Yes. There's a lot of concentration of power, and history 73 00:03:42,135 --> 00:03:43,815 Alessandro Oppo: probably has never seen 74 00:03:44,615 --> 00:03:45,495 Alessandro Oppo: such 75 00:03:45,575 --> 00:03:51,280 Alessandro Oppo: efficient mix of power both over individuals and societies. If you think about it, 76 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,320 Alessandro Oppo: there are eight sources of power, which are concentrated 77 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,520 Alessandro Oppo: in the big tech companies. First of all, 78 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:00,800 Alessandro Oppo: they are 79 00:04:01,345 --> 00:04:02,305 Alessandro Oppo: the 80 00:04:02,705 --> 00:04:04,705 Alessandro Oppo: richest and best capitalized 81 00:04:04,705 --> 00:04:11,505 Alessandro Oppo: companies in the world. They're all in the top 10, of this US stock exchange, so they have a lot of money. 82 00:04:12,065 --> 00:04:12,865 Alessandro Oppo: Second, 83 00:04:13,105 --> 00:04:22,694 Alessandro Oppo: they have all the personal data about us. Every individual in the world is profiled by these companies with up to 3,000 84 00:04:22,694 --> 00:04:23,494 parameters, 85 00:04:23,290 --> 00:04:25,690 Alessandro Oppo: so they basically know everything about us. 86 00:04:26,090 --> 00:04:29,290 Alessandro Oppo: About every individual, they know the leanings, 87 00:04:29,735 --> 00:04:31,255 Alessandro Oppo: the political leanings, 88 00:04:31,495 --> 00:04:33,015 Alessandro Oppo: the sexual leanings, 89 00:04:33,175 --> 00:04:34,375 Alessandro Oppo: religious leanings. 90 00:04:34,535 --> 00:04:37,575 Alessandro Oppo: They know our fears and our ambitions, 91 00:04:37,975 --> 00:04:39,015 Alessandro Oppo: our dreams, 92 00:04:39,655 --> 00:04:41,735 Alessandro Oppo: and they know all our relationships. 93 00:04:43,230 --> 00:04:49,710 Alessandro Oppo: And this is, of course, very, very dangerous that, these profiles are at the core of the danger 94 00:04:49,870 --> 00:04:52,190 Alessandro Oppo: to democracy of fundamental rights 95 00:04:52,510 --> 00:04:54,430 Alessandro Oppo: and fundamental rights. And then, 96 00:04:54,990 --> 00:04:57,070 Alessandro Oppo: these companies have the power 97 00:04:58,235 --> 00:04:59,355 Alessandro Oppo: of innovation 98 00:04:59,355 --> 00:05:01,675 Alessandro Oppo: on their side, and not only, 99 00:05:02,315 --> 00:05:06,075 Alessandro Oppo: are they strong innovators and innovate in secrecy 100 00:05:06,635 --> 00:05:10,235 Alessandro Oppo: in to such an extent that public 101 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,120 Alessandro Oppo: universities really don't know anymore exactly 102 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,040 Alessandro Oppo: what is the state of the art. 103 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:16,440 Alessandro Oppo: These companies, 104 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:18,920 Alessandro Oppo: impose, 105 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:20,680 Alessandro Oppo: gagging orders, 106 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:22,760 Alessandro Oppo: on their 107 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:24,040 Alessandro Oppo: contracts, 108 00:05:24,415 --> 00:05:28,495 Alessandro Oppo: work contracts with the gegen clauses, which means that people can't talk about, 109 00:05:29,055 --> 00:05:30,815 Alessandro Oppo: what what they are researching, 110 00:05:30,975 --> 00:05:34,015 Alessandro Oppo: inside the companies to such an extent that really, 111 00:05:34,495 --> 00:05:35,855 Alessandro Oppo: the good old tradition 112 00:05:36,270 --> 00:05:37,070 Alessandro Oppo: that, 113 00:05:37,070 --> 00:05:38,190 Alessandro Oppo: a PhD, 114 00:05:38,590 --> 00:05:45,179 Alessandro Oppo: students return to their professors from time to time once they start working and talk with the professor about what they are 115 00:05:45,179 --> 00:05:50,270 now working on, it's just not happening anymore. They have completely these companies have completely cut off 116 00:05:50,845 --> 00:05:51,885 Alessandro Oppo: academia 117 00:05:51,885 --> 00:05:54,045 Alessandro Oppo: and pushed forward technology 118 00:05:54,045 --> 00:05:55,165 Alessandro Oppo: in secrecy, 119 00:05:55,565 --> 00:05:59,485 Alessandro Oppo: which is, I think, a great problem. And it's a it's a huge change, 120 00:05:59,805 --> 00:06:07,050 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, to thirty or forty years ago still where there was still a very lively dialogue 121 00:06:07,770 --> 00:06:09,290 Alessandro Oppo: between universities 122 00:06:09,290 --> 00:06:10,090 Alessandro Oppo: and 123 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:21,628 Alessandro Oppo: and private research. Okay. So we are talking about, the eight elements of power which are concentrated in big big tech and 124 00:06:21,628 --> 00:06:24,835 which gives them a power in society and 125 00:06:25,235 --> 00:06:26,915 Alessandro Oppo: democracy over people, 126 00:06:27,075 --> 00:06:29,555 Alessandro Oppo: but old also over whole countries, 127 00:06:30,355 --> 00:06:32,035 Alessandro Oppo: which really never existed before. 128 00:06:33,090 --> 00:06:34,930 Alessandro Oppo: And I was saying that, 129 00:06:36,050 --> 00:06:43,490 Alessandro Oppo: of course, the key element of this aid is the personal data which they collect, because this means they know everything about 130 00:06:44,625 --> 00:06:45,905 Alessandro Oppo: every individual. 131 00:06:46,545 --> 00:06:49,825 Alessandro Oppo: They know our dreams, our ambitions, our fears, 132 00:06:51,025 --> 00:06:51,825 Alessandro Oppo: and 133 00:06:52,145 --> 00:06:55,585 Alessandro Oppo: they know our political leanings, our religious leanings, 134 00:06:55,825 --> 00:06:57,425 Alessandro Oppo: our sexual leanings, they know 135 00:06:58,180 --> 00:06:59,620 Alessandro Oppo: our relationships. 136 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:01,220 Alessandro Oppo: And of course, 137 00:07:01,780 --> 00:07:04,820 Alessandro Oppo: in the first place, they use it to sell for commerce, 138 00:07:05,220 --> 00:07:09,380 Alessandro Oppo: but this information can and is being used for political purposes. 139 00:07:10,515 --> 00:07:12,275 Alessandro Oppo: And, it's not only, 140 00:07:12,515 --> 00:07:14,035 Alessandro Oppo: about understanding 141 00:07:14,755 --> 00:07:17,315 Alessandro Oppo: people. It is used to manipulate people 142 00:07:17,875 --> 00:07:24,515 Alessandro Oppo: in their choices, and not only commercial choices, but also democratic choices. And we have seen this before. It is documented. 143 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,960 Alessandro Oppo: So this is at 144 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:29,320 Alessandro Oppo: the critical 145 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,440 Alessandro Oppo: core of democracy. This concentration 146 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,280 Alessandro Oppo: of knowledge in the profiles about people, I think that is 147 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,080 Alessandro Oppo: a core problem. And, honestly, 148 00:07:39,685 --> 00:07:41,125 Alessandro Oppo: if we want democracy, 149 00:07:41,125 --> 00:07:43,685 Alessandro Oppo: we have to get rid of these all encompassing 150 00:07:43,685 --> 00:07:44,565 Alessandro Oppo: profiles. 151 00:07:44,725 --> 00:07:51,285 Alessandro Oppo: And I'm not talking about your playlist on Spotify or your loyalty card, with a supermarket or, 152 00:07:51,685 --> 00:07:52,485 Alessandro Oppo: with an airline. 153 00:07:53,690 --> 00:07:55,770 Alessandro Oppo: You know, I'm talking about 154 00:07:56,810 --> 00:08:03,642 Alessandro Oppo: profiles which consolidate all the information, which is in all what I just mentioned, plus everything else you can imagine. Every 155 00:08:03,642 --> 00:08:06,570 time you're on the Internet and often also offline, 156 00:08:07,130 --> 00:08:08,810 Alessandro Oppo: you are being profiled 157 00:08:08,845 --> 00:08:12,605 Alessandro Oppo: through a collection of your activities of your personal data. 158 00:08:13,005 --> 00:08:15,645 Alessandro Oppo: And this has to end. This this consolidation 159 00:08:15,645 --> 00:08:21,699 Alessandro Oppo: into all encompassing profiles is a huge problem, and I will explain later why it's why it's even a bigger problem in 160 00:08:21,699 --> 00:08:22,525 times of AI. 161 00:08:23,430 --> 00:08:26,470 Alessandro Oppo: But let's continue on, the elements of power. 162 00:08:27,430 --> 00:08:30,710 Alessandro Oppo: They have the power of innovation, I mentioned already, 163 00:08:31,350 --> 00:08:40,086 Alessandro Oppo: and they have the power because they have the money to buy up competing innovation. They are able to buy up the 164 00:08:40,086 --> 00:08:42,865 next logical development of their own technology 165 00:08:42,865 --> 00:08:48,145 Alessandro Oppo: and just integrate it, but they can also buy up smaller competitors, startups, 166 00:08:48,385 --> 00:08:51,345 Alessandro Oppo: new market entrants, and just kill them 167 00:08:52,065 --> 00:08:54,705 Alessandro Oppo: in order to, not have competition 168 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:55,720 Alessandro Oppo: anymore. 169 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:56,920 Alessandro Oppo: And 170 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,160 Alessandro Oppo: they do not only, 171 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:01,880 Alessandro Oppo: own the 172 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,400 Alessandro Oppo: power of data and network 173 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,160 Alessandro Oppo: technology and now AI, 174 00:09:07,705 --> 00:09:10,825 Alessandro Oppo: they also own and control the networks, 175 00:09:11,465 --> 00:09:12,425 Alessandro Oppo: the hardware, 176 00:09:12,665 --> 00:09:15,305 Alessandro Oppo: in terms of the cables which transmits, 177 00:09:15,625 --> 00:09:16,585 Alessandro Oppo: information. 178 00:09:17,545 --> 00:09:18,345 Alessandro Oppo: And 179 00:09:18,745 --> 00:09:27,390 Alessandro Oppo: they are very, very influential in politics. In particular, in American politics, you can see how they are trying to buy votes, 180 00:09:27,790 --> 00:09:32,110 Alessandro Oppo: how much money they are spending in every state and in Washington 181 00:09:32,190 --> 00:09:33,630 Alessandro Oppo: to avoid legislation 182 00:09:33,965 --> 00:09:42,205 Alessandro Oppo: which is in the public interest, to control the content of legislation and to bend it to their will with money. 183 00:09:43,885 --> 00:09:46,285 Alessandro Oppo: So I think, we 184 00:09:46,285 --> 00:09:47,645 Alessandro Oppo: have to see all this together. 185 00:09:48,220 --> 00:09:52,620 Alessandro Oppo: And the final, and also important thing is 186 00:09:53,020 --> 00:09:57,100 Alessandro Oppo: they use their money to spread narratives, 187 00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:59,020 Alessandro Oppo: to buy up philosophers, 188 00:09:59,020 --> 00:10:00,140 Alessandro Oppo: sociologists, 189 00:10:00,140 --> 00:10:01,660 Alessandro Oppo: political scientists, 190 00:10:02,700 --> 00:10:03,500 Alessandro Oppo: to develop 191 00:10:04,785 --> 00:10:05,745 Alessandro Oppo: stories, 192 00:10:06,145 --> 00:10:07,745 Alessandro Oppo: about the future, 193 00:10:08,465 --> 00:10:13,105 Alessandro Oppo: which place technology at the center of everything. 194 00:10:13,825 --> 00:10:15,665 Alessandro Oppo: And, this combination 195 00:10:15,665 --> 00:10:17,185 Alessandro Oppo: of technological power, 196 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:20,010 Alessandro Oppo: data power, network power, 197 00:10:20,730 --> 00:10:23,610 Alessandro Oppo: power to influence the public sphere, 198 00:10:23,610 --> 00:10:25,210 Alessandro Oppo: the political choices 199 00:10:25,210 --> 00:10:30,890 Alessandro Oppo: which are made in countries by lobbying politics, but also by manipulating individuals 200 00:10:30,890 --> 00:10:31,770 Alessandro Oppo: before elections, 201 00:10:33,025 --> 00:10:36,785 Alessandro Oppo: And the power of narrative, all of this together, 202 00:10:37,265 --> 00:10:39,985 Alessandro Oppo: is a huge danger to democracy 203 00:10:39,985 --> 00:10:41,025 Alessandro Oppo: in itself. 204 00:10:42,065 --> 00:10:43,985 Alessandro Oppo: And now we enter the age of AI, 205 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:46,320 Alessandro Oppo: And everything 206 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,560 Alessandro Oppo: gets even worse. 207 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:50,640 Alessandro Oppo: Because with AI, 208 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:57,520 Alessandro Oppo: not only the collection of data becomes much more intense because people tell 209 00:10:57,815 --> 00:11:06,855 Alessandro Oppo: to, the AI systems, the large language models, much more than they were revealing in, the normal use of social networks and, 210 00:11:07,255 --> 00:11:11,415 Alessandro Oppo: in in their search behavior or watching videos on TikTok or YouTube. 211 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:18,840 Alessandro Oppo: They talk to the LLM like it's a friend, so they reveal even more. And all this is being used for profiling. 212 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:20,360 Alessandro Oppo: But also 213 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,760 Alessandro Oppo: based on the profiles, 214 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,720 Alessandro Oppo: the targeting of people, the individual 215 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,080 Alessandro Oppo: manipulation 216 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:33,535 Alessandro Oppo: from the strongest computers of this world with AI, of course, gets much more intense. 217 00:11:34,095 --> 00:11:36,575 Alessandro Oppo: It's quite logical. You can use AI 218 00:11:37,215 --> 00:11:39,535 Alessandro Oppo: to manipulate people in a much, 219 00:11:40,430 --> 00:11:42,910 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, more sophisticated 220 00:11:42,910 --> 00:11:46,270 Alessandro Oppo: way than you could do it before AI. 221 00:11:46,990 --> 00:11:49,310 Alessandro Oppo: So, our theme today is, 222 00:11:49,950 --> 00:11:52,350 Alessandro Oppo: is democracy being supported 223 00:11:52,510 --> 00:11:54,830 Alessandro Oppo: by AI, or is it being undermined? 224 00:11:55,385 --> 00:12:00,025 Alessandro Oppo: And my view on that is very clear. There is ample evidence already 225 00:12:00,345 --> 00:12:02,985 Alessandro Oppo: that AI undermines democracy. 226 00:12:03,385 --> 00:12:04,985 Alessandro Oppo: And there's a lot of talk 227 00:12:05,545 --> 00:12:06,985 Alessandro Oppo: and a lot of 228 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,840 Alessandro Oppo: wish that it supports democracy, 229 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,360 Alessandro Oppo: but that's not real. 230 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:17,160 Alessandro Oppo: We don't have large scale examples of empirics 231 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,240 Alessandro Oppo: where we can already show 232 00:12:19,415 --> 00:12:21,655 Alessandro Oppo: that AI serves democracy, 233 00:12:21,655 --> 00:12:24,215 Alessandro Oppo: but we have large scale empirics already 234 00:12:24,455 --> 00:12:31,015 Alessandro Oppo: that AI undermines democracy. So, we have to look at the empirics and not get lost in theoretical 235 00:12:31,015 --> 00:12:33,095 Alessandro Oppo: ambitions and theoretical dreams 236 00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:40,090 Alessandro Oppo: about how great AI could be for democracy if we would just be using it in the right way. 237 00:12:40,810 --> 00:12:42,570 Alessandro Oppo: Because the likelihood 238 00:12:43,210 --> 00:12:45,450 Alessandro Oppo: that AI is being used 239 00:12:46,170 --> 00:12:47,050 Alessandro Oppo: without 240 00:12:47,305 --> 00:12:54,916 Alessandro Oppo: the companies using all the other elements of power which I just mentioned in their interest and also in AI in their 241 00:12:54,916 --> 00:13:00,105 interest. After all, they are these companies which have the data about us are also 242 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,280 Alessandro Oppo: among the top players of AI is very small. It's, 243 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,120 Alessandro Oppo: very unlikely 244 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:07,560 Alessandro Oppo: that suddenly, 245 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,520 Alessandro Oppo: these huge corporates, 246 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,000 Alessandro Oppo: and I would call, also now 247 00:13:14,225 --> 00:13:15,185 Alessandro Oppo: OpenAI 248 00:13:15,185 --> 00:13:16,385 Alessandro Oppo: and and 249 00:13:16,545 --> 00:13:18,945 Alessandro Oppo: and Antropic among these, 250 00:13:20,385 --> 00:13:26,545 Alessandro Oppo: you know, why should they suddenly turn, to be good citizens and supporters of democracy? Until now, 251 00:13:27,260 --> 00:13:29,660 Alessandro Oppo: they have basically stalled 252 00:13:30,060 --> 00:13:31,900 Alessandro Oppo: any type of legislation, 253 00:13:32,540 --> 00:13:34,780 Alessandro Oppo: and, they have resisted, 254 00:13:35,180 --> 00:13:38,220 Alessandro Oppo: any type of, strict obligations 255 00:13:38,220 --> 00:13:39,020 Alessandro Oppo: being 256 00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:45,795 Alessandro Oppo: posed on them. We have seen the fight they were fighting in Europe, and this fight is by far not finished because, 257 00:13:46,195 --> 00:13:46,995 Alessandro Oppo: obviously, 258 00:13:46,995 --> 00:13:49,075 Alessandro Oppo: it continues also into 259 00:13:49,715 --> 00:13:50,595 Alessandro Oppo: enforcement 260 00:13:50,595 --> 00:13:51,715 Alessandro Oppo: activities. 261 00:13:51,715 --> 00:13:52,915 Alessandro Oppo: So in short, 262 00:13:53,795 --> 00:13:58,755 Alessandro Oppo: it's crunch time for democracy, and it's time for individuals to engage on this issue. 263 00:13:59,510 --> 00:14:03,110 Paul Nemitz: When when you say that AI undermines democracy, 264 00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:05,110 Paul Nemitz: do you mean AI as a 265 00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:08,390 Paul Nemitz: technical tool or the fact that that is concentrated 266 00:14:10,390 --> 00:14:11,830 Paul Nemitz: in just, 267 00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:13,190 Paul Nemitz: let's say, few hands? 268 00:14:14,015 --> 00:14:14,815 Paul Nemitz: And 269 00:14:15,215 --> 00:14:16,575 Paul Nemitz: because I'm thinking like, 270 00:14:17,375 --> 00:14:18,815 Paul Nemitz: could AI, 271 00:14:18,815 --> 00:14:22,335 Paul Nemitz: let's say, if it is, I don't know, sort of public AI, 272 00:14:22,815 --> 00:14:23,775 Paul Nemitz: European 273 00:14:23,855 --> 00:14:27,215 Paul Nemitz: public AI, could be in that case good for democracy? 274 00:14:28,050 --> 00:14:28,850 Alessandro Oppo: Well, 275 00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:29,970 Alessandro Oppo: I think 276 00:14:31,170 --> 00:14:33,410 Alessandro Oppo: we there are a number of 277 00:14:33,730 --> 00:14:34,530 Alessandro Oppo: constellations 278 00:14:34,530 --> 00:14:35,890 Alessandro Oppo: we have to think through. 279 00:14:36,610 --> 00:14:38,130 Alessandro Oppo: If it is true 280 00:14:38,450 --> 00:14:39,810 Alessandro Oppo: that AI 281 00:14:39,965 --> 00:14:43,485 Alessandro Oppo: takes over big part of our work, 282 00:14:44,125 --> 00:14:45,005 Alessandro Oppo: it means 283 00:14:45,405 --> 00:14:46,445 Alessandro Oppo: that people 284 00:14:47,005 --> 00:14:48,285 Alessandro Oppo: do not have, 285 00:14:49,485 --> 00:14:54,285 Alessandro Oppo: the context anymore in which they normally have their political debates, 286 00:14:54,285 --> 00:14:56,190 Alessandro Oppo: because the classical 287 00:14:56,190 --> 00:15:03,473 Alessandro Oppo: political opinion building takes place at the workplace. This is where people talk with each other. This is where they meet. This 288 00:15:03,473 --> 00:15:05,790 is where they make their social connections. 289 00:15:06,350 --> 00:15:07,230 Alessandro Oppo: And 290 00:15:07,305 --> 00:15:13,545 Alessandro Oppo: if that falls away because AI either takes over the job or AI allows 291 00:15:15,145 --> 00:15:19,065 Alessandro Oppo: people to work on their own at home or as digital nomads 292 00:15:20,025 --> 00:15:21,065 Alessandro Oppo: or 293 00:15:21,065 --> 00:15:22,505 Alessandro Oppo: as 294 00:15:23,230 --> 00:15:24,510 Alessandro Oppo: crowd workers, 295 00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:27,070 Alessandro Oppo: it's 296 00:15:27,070 --> 00:15:33,945 Alessandro Oppo: very difficult for them to engage in democracy and have the type of dialogues which you have at the normal workplace. So 297 00:15:33,945 --> 00:15:37,070 I think AI as a technology already on this point 298 00:15:38,125 --> 00:15:39,085 Alessandro Oppo: is 299 00:15:39,085 --> 00:15:46,445 Alessandro Oppo: something which will become a problem for democracy. The second point where I think AI as a technology becomes 300 00:15:46,525 --> 00:15:49,725 Alessandro Oppo: a problem is that it dequalifies us. 301 00:15:51,860 --> 00:15:57,860 Alessandro Oppo: You know, how are people going to be motivated to learn if everything seems 302 00:15:57,860 --> 00:15:58,980 Alessandro Oppo: to be known 303 00:16:00,020 --> 00:16:00,900 Alessandro Oppo: by 304 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:01,780 Alessandro Oppo: AI? 305 00:16:01,860 --> 00:16:03,380 Alessandro Oppo: And how will people 306 00:16:03,805 --> 00:16:05,645 Alessandro Oppo: be able to check 307 00:16:05,965 --> 00:16:11,245 Alessandro Oppo: on the political bias of the answers they get when they ask questions on AI? 308 00:16:12,205 --> 00:16:14,685 Alessandro Oppo: You know, that is much more difficult 309 00:16:14,845 --> 00:16:20,360 Alessandro Oppo: than if you read your daily newspaper where you know these guys are on the right, 310 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,720 Alessandro Oppo: these guys are on the left. You know, newspapers have a line normally and it is known. 311 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,600 Alessandro Oppo: And we make choices on this basis. 312 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,760 Alessandro Oppo: The ideology of AI is everything is scientific, 313 00:16:33,355 --> 00:16:38,555 Alessandro Oppo: everything is objective, we give you the one best answer. That's of course a huge lie. 314 00:16:39,675 --> 00:16:44,475 Alessandro Oppo: The Max Planck Institute of Intelligent Systems in Tubingen has a website 315 00:16:44,635 --> 00:16:46,475 Alessandro Oppo: where you can ask your questions 316 00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:49,190 Alessandro Oppo: and you get 21 317 00:16:49,190 --> 00:16:55,430 Alessandro Oppo: different answers. And in the first step, the people at the Max Planck, they don't tell you who's answering. 318 00:16:55,750 --> 00:16:57,030 Alessandro Oppo: And I have tested, 319 00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:58,470 Alessandro Oppo: on this website, 320 00:17:00,325 --> 00:17:07,285 Alessandro Oppo: the political bias of AI answers. I have asked political questions. For example, I've asked the question, 321 00:17:07,525 --> 00:17:09,205 Alessandro Oppo: what is the evidence 322 00:17:09,605 --> 00:17:10,725 Alessandro Oppo: that AI 323 00:17:10,885 --> 00:17:12,085 Alessandro Oppo: undermines democracy, 324 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,400 Alessandro Oppo: And what is the evidence that AI supports democracy? 325 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,760 Alessandro Oppo: And the answers from the AI system were hugely 326 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:20,560 Alessandro Oppo: different. 327 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,680 Alessandro Oppo: The large majority of AI systems 328 00:17:24,655 --> 00:17:29,535 Alessandro Oppo: gave an answer which I think, is really not a good answer. 329 00:17:29,695 --> 00:17:33,215 Alessandro Oppo: It said, oh, is a technology. It's neutral, 330 00:17:33,535 --> 00:17:38,575 Alessandro Oppo: and it can be used for good purposes and for bad purposes. It all depends on the governance. 331 00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:46,070 Alessandro Oppo: Well, honestly, I don't believe that's true. AI is not a neutral technology because it is produced 332 00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:47,990 Alessandro Oppo: by people who have interests 333 00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:50,150 Alessandro Oppo: for their purposes. 334 00:17:51,030 --> 00:17:51,830 Alessandro Oppo: And, 335 00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:59,315 Alessandro Oppo: so it's too simple and under complex to say, oh, it's like any other tool. It's not any other tool. It's a, 336 00:17:59,875 --> 00:18:02,195 Alessandro Oppo: it's a technology of domination. 337 00:18:02,835 --> 00:18:05,075 Alessandro Oppo: And that's the difference to the hammer and the knife. 338 00:18:05,810 --> 00:18:11,890 Alessandro Oppo: The people who develop AI want to dominate us and many of them want to overcome the human. 339 00:18:12,290 --> 00:18:13,650 Alessandro Oppo: Many of them are 340 00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:15,730 Alessandro Oppo: posthumanists. 341 00:18:16,050 --> 00:18:24,064 Alessandro Oppo: They think that humans are basically failing information treatment systems, and they believe that AI is the better information treatment 342 00:18:24,064 --> 00:18:24,864 system, 343 00:18:24,785 --> 00:18:26,945 Alessandro Oppo: and therefore it's absolutely 344 00:18:26,945 --> 00:18:32,065 Alessandro Oppo: okay in their eyes to push the humans out and have it all done by AI. 345 00:18:32,510 --> 00:18:34,750 Alessandro Oppo: Certainly, Elon Musk is one of those. 346 00:18:35,470 --> 00:18:38,270 Alessandro Oppo: So what I'm saying here is, 347 00:18:39,950 --> 00:18:44,910 Alessandro Oppo: you know, with a little bit of thought, one discovers very easily that already today, 348 00:18:46,655 --> 00:18:50,255 Alessandro Oppo: AI has huge potential and does actually undermine 349 00:18:50,335 --> 00:18:51,215 Alessandro Oppo: democracy. 350 00:18:51,215 --> 00:18:56,415 Alessandro Oppo: I I would go as far as saying that the business model, and that's not an AI 351 00:18:56,815 --> 00:19:04,780 Alessandro Oppo: only argument, that's also a business model argument, the business model of social networks combined with AI even more than before, 352 00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:08,220 Alessandro Oppo: polarizes society, 353 00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:13,820 Alessandro Oppo: drives people into the extremes, and that's what we see in America, and that's what we see in Europe in the elections. 354 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:16,780 Alessandro Oppo: More and more elections worldwide 355 00:19:17,575 --> 00:19:23,175 Alessandro Oppo: lead to a rise of extreme right wing and extreme left wing. And that's not a coincidence. 356 00:19:24,455 --> 00:19:25,255 Alessandro Oppo: But, 357 00:19:25,815 --> 00:19:26,855 Alessandro Oppo: that is, 358 00:19:26,935 --> 00:19:28,615 Alessandro Oppo: I would say, empirical 359 00:19:28,615 --> 00:19:30,455 Alessandro Oppo: evidence of the fact 360 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:35,200 Alessandro Oppo: that the communication environment which social networks combined, 361 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,360 Alessandro Oppo: with AI create 362 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:39,120 Alessandro Oppo: is 363 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:40,320 Alessandro Oppo: good news, 364 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,720 Alessandro Oppo: for the extremists because it 365 00:19:43,875 --> 00:19:46,675 Alessandro Oppo: the the business environment to make money, 366 00:19:46,675 --> 00:19:48,515 Alessandro Oppo: to keep people on the screen, 367 00:19:48,835 --> 00:19:50,515 Alessandro Oppo: to maximize clicks 368 00:19:51,555 --> 00:19:52,435 Alessandro Oppo: favors 369 00:19:52,595 --> 00:19:53,475 Alessandro Oppo: extreme 370 00:19:53,475 --> 00:19:54,355 Alessandro Oppo: views. 371 00:19:54,755 --> 00:20:00,020 Alessandro Oppo: On the other hand, you know, your question, well, you know, let's just think about the potential, 372 00:20:00,260 --> 00:20:06,501 Alessandro Oppo: of the technology. Yes. We can dream, and we can tell great stories, and that's part of the hype to tell to 373 00:20:06,501 --> 00:20:12,175 business, you know, everything will be more efficient when you do it with AI, and to tell to societies, oh, 374 00:20:12,415 --> 00:20:19,695 Alessandro Oppo: you know, all your problems will be solved with AI, including the problem of consensus building. I mean, imagine 375 00:20:20,415 --> 00:20:21,615 Alessandro Oppo: deep mind 376 00:20:22,575 --> 00:20:23,775 Alessandro Oppo: had the hubris 377 00:20:24,740 --> 00:20:27,460 Alessandro Oppo: to build a machine which they called Habermas, 378 00:20:27,460 --> 00:20:29,140 Alessandro Oppo: Baschie. Habermas, 379 00:20:29,140 --> 00:20:30,500 Alessandro Oppo: the great philosopher 380 00:20:31,060 --> 00:20:31,860 Alessandro Oppo: who, 381 00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:34,740 Alessandro Oppo: at the center of his academic 382 00:20:34,740 --> 00:20:35,540 Alessandro Oppo: work, 383 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:38,565 Alessandro Oppo: explained to us how communication 384 00:20:38,565 --> 00:20:43,045 Alessandro Oppo: in the political environment, in the public space work, and how consensus is built. 385 00:20:43,365 --> 00:20:45,125 Alessandro Oppo: And they really went out 386 00:20:45,525 --> 00:20:48,565 Alessandro Oppo: without the agreement of Habermas, this is in my book, 387 00:20:49,125 --> 00:20:56,240 Alessandro Oppo: because we have talked to Habermas about this, without his agreement, without ever talking to him, and claimed 388 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,440 Alessandro Oppo: they've created a Habermas machine which 389 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:01,200 Alessandro Oppo: simulates 390 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:02,560 Alessandro Oppo: the consensus 391 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,600 Alessandro Oppo: building find building, which he describes 392 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,015 Alessandro Oppo: in his philosophical theory, which is total hubris. 393 00:21:10,055 --> 00:21:10,855 Alessandro Oppo: And, 394 00:21:11,815 --> 00:21:13,735 Alessandro Oppo: we wrote to them, and, 395 00:21:14,615 --> 00:21:19,015 Alessandro Oppo: they said, okay. We will not use this name anymore. But, of course, the scientific, 396 00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:26,848 Alessandro Oppo: quote quote scientific, I say, yeah, I don't think it's scientific, but but but the publication is out and is being quoted 397 00:21:26,848 --> 00:21:29,030 as an example of how AI can, 398 00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:38,283 Alessandro Oppo: help a democracy. Well, you know, I have heard from, Justin Hendrix, the editor of Tech Policy Press and who's a professor 399 00:21:38,283 --> 00:21:39,083 of 400 00:21:39,685 --> 00:21:46,690 Alessandro Oppo: informatics at Cornell University that they have tried to replicate the Habermas machine, and it didn't work. So replication 401 00:21:46,690 --> 00:21:47,890 Alessandro Oppo: was not possible. 402 00:21:48,850 --> 00:21:53,570 Alessandro Oppo: And that's just one of the many examples which I could give you where, 403 00:21:53,810 --> 00:21:56,130 Alessandro Oppo: you know, a story is created 404 00:21:56,210 --> 00:21:59,570 Alessandro Oppo: claiming that AI can help democracy, 405 00:22:01,235 --> 00:22:04,515 Alessandro Oppo: but in reality it's not happening and it's not working. 406 00:22:04,915 --> 00:22:09,075 Alessandro Oppo: In the end, you know, democracy is about people talking 407 00:22:09,075 --> 00:22:13,555 Alessandro Oppo: with each other, and I would even go as far as saying people physically talking with each other. 408 00:22:14,610 --> 00:22:15,570 Alessandro Oppo: Because, 409 00:22:15,570 --> 00:22:17,970 Alessandro Oppo: you know, democracy means sustainable 410 00:22:17,970 --> 00:22:21,010 Alessandro Oppo: long term engagement. It's often a fight. 411 00:22:21,250 --> 00:22:24,930 Alessandro Oppo: You need to rely on the others. So the type of solidarity 412 00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:29,025 Alessandro Oppo: and the type of sticking together which you need in protracted 413 00:22:29,025 --> 00:22:31,105 Alessandro Oppo: long term political fights 414 00:22:31,185 --> 00:22:32,625 Alessandro Oppo: is only built 415 00:22:32,705 --> 00:22:35,745 Alessandro Oppo: if you know the people, if you see them physically, 416 00:22:36,625 --> 00:22:40,305 Alessandro Oppo: if you speak and discuss with them not just once but many times. 417 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,760 Alessandro Oppo: So it's a genuinely human thing, and I don't think, 418 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:46,360 Alessandro Oppo: mediation 419 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,640 Alessandro Oppo: helps, helps a lot in that context. 420 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,400 Alessandro Oppo: Sorry. 421 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:52,440 Paul Nemitz: Don't worry. 422 00:22:53,165 --> 00:22:55,165 Alessandro Oppo: Just a moment. I have to take this once. 423 00:22:55,645 --> 00:22:56,685 Paul Nemitz: Yeah. Don't worry. 424 00:22:57,965 --> 00:22:59,085 Alessandro Oppo: Francesco. 425 00:22:59,085 --> 00:23:04,045 Alessandro Oppo: No problem. Tell me let's be quick because I'm in a video conference. Yeah. 426 00:23:04,205 --> 00:23:05,005 Alessandro Oppo: Just 427 00:23:05,005 --> 00:23:06,205 Alessandro Oppo: send me the address 428 00:23:06,445 --> 00:23:07,965 Alessandro Oppo: or the name. I'll find it. 429 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,840 Alessandro Oppo: And 01:00 is fine for you? Okay. 430 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,520 Alessandro Oppo: And 01:00 is fine for you? Okay. See you later. 431 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:18,800 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. 432 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:20,560 Alessandro Oppo: It's good. 433 00:23:21,525 --> 00:23:22,805 Alessandro Oppo: Okay. Bye. 434 00:23:23,205 --> 00:23:25,045 Alessandro Oppo: Sorry. Now I switch it off. 435 00:23:26,165 --> 00:23:27,285 Alessandro Oppo: Don't worry. 436 00:23:29,205 --> 00:23:30,885 Alessandro Oppo: Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. 437 00:23:31,205 --> 00:23:32,005 Alessandro Oppo: Okay. 438 00:23:32,245 --> 00:23:33,125 Alessandro Oppo: On we go. And, 439 00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:41,547 Paul Nemitz: I mean, before the my the next question, I just want to ask you if we can have a little, I don't 440 00:23:41,547 --> 00:23:42,430 know, 10 more. 441 00:23:42,670 --> 00:23:44,350 Paul Nemitz: Will it be fine? Okay. 442 00:23:47,470 --> 00:23:48,430 Paul Nemitz: What can be done, 443 00:23:49,015 --> 00:23:51,495 Paul Nemitz: let's say, a European perspective 444 00:23:52,295 --> 00:23:53,175 Paul Nemitz: to 445 00:23:54,615 --> 00:23:57,335 Paul Nemitz: not let technology undermine democracy? 446 00:23:58,295 --> 00:23:59,335 Paul Nemitz: And also, 447 00:23:59,495 --> 00:24:01,575 Paul Nemitz: do you think that old technology 448 00:24:02,295 --> 00:24:03,735 Paul Nemitz: can undermine democracy? 449 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,080 Alessandro Oppo: No. I think there 450 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:09,360 Alessandro Oppo: was, 451 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:10,480 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, historic 452 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,920 Alessandro Oppo: experience and evidence in media like television and radio. Of course, 453 00:24:17,615 --> 00:24:19,775 Alessandro Oppo: television and radio have become 454 00:24:20,575 --> 00:24:26,095 Alessandro Oppo: essential parts of public communication and the public space, like the newspapers. 455 00:24:26,975 --> 00:24:27,775 Alessandro Oppo: But 456 00:24:28,175 --> 00:24:30,095 Alessandro Oppo: if they are not regulated properly, 457 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,520 Alessandro Oppo: they 458 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:33,560 Alessandro Oppo: kill 459 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:34,680 Alessandro Oppo: democracy. 460 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,240 Alessandro Oppo: And the example is in, 461 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,040 Alessandro Oppo: you 462 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,960 Alessandro Oppo: know, the times of Hitler and the end of the Weimar Republic, the radio 463 00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:45,080 Alessandro Oppo: and the monopoly in the printed press in Germany 464 00:24:47,105 --> 00:24:51,985 Alessandro Oppo: helped Hitler to rise, and certainly for the Fascists, the radio was 465 00:24:52,385 --> 00:24:54,865 Alessandro Oppo: the key instrument of domination. 466 00:24:55,425 --> 00:25:00,705 Alessandro Oppo: And the consequence which was drawn from this after the Second World War in Germany and 467 00:25:01,345 --> 00:25:04,920 Alessandro Oppo: in Europe, and in fact was imposed on Germany, 468 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,920 Alessandro Oppo: by the Allies, 469 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:08,440 Alessandro Oppo: was 470 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,600 Alessandro Oppo: a separation of powers, vertical and horizontal, 471 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,120 Alessandro Oppo: including on media. 472 00:25:15,155 --> 00:25:19,635 Alessandro Oppo: Radio was by law and TV, by law, completely decentralized. 473 00:25:19,635 --> 00:25:20,595 Alessandro Oppo: So there's no, 474 00:25:20,995 --> 00:25:21,795 Alessandro Oppo: federal, 475 00:25:22,355 --> 00:25:23,235 Alessandro Oppo: TV 476 00:25:23,795 --> 00:25:24,755 Alessandro Oppo: domestically, 477 00:25:24,755 --> 00:25:29,155 Alessandro Oppo: like in Italy, Rei as a national station. It doesn't exist, in Germany 478 00:25:30,020 --> 00:25:32,660 Alessandro Oppo: as a result of the experience of fascism, 479 00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:35,540 Alessandro Oppo: but it has been decentralized. 480 00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:38,420 Alessandro Oppo: So that's my first point. Technology, 481 00:25:39,380 --> 00:25:41,140 Alessandro Oppo: which tends to centralization, 482 00:25:41,955 --> 00:25:45,235 Alessandro Oppo: is never a good thing for democracy. 483 00:25:46,115 --> 00:25:48,515 Alessandro Oppo: If the technology tends to be, 484 00:25:49,955 --> 00:25:50,755 Alessandro Oppo: you know, 485 00:25:51,555 --> 00:25:52,515 Alessandro Oppo: centralized, 486 00:25:52,915 --> 00:25:56,275 Alessandro Oppo: and that is clearly the ambition of the developers of AI, 487 00:25:57,510 --> 00:25:58,310 Alessandro Oppo: then 488 00:25:59,190 --> 00:26:01,990 Alessandro Oppo: that we must insist on decentralization 489 00:26:01,990 --> 00:26:02,950 Alessandro Oppo: decentralization 490 00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:03,830 Alessandro Oppo: by law, 491 00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:10,230 Alessandro Oppo: because the market is not on its own delivering this. The private TVs, you have seen this also in Italy, 492 00:26:11,155 --> 00:26:13,075 Alessandro Oppo: you know, with Bellusconi, 493 00:26:13,075 --> 00:26:14,835 Alessandro Oppo: you know, national TV, 494 00:26:15,315 --> 00:26:18,755 Alessandro Oppo: started decentralized but became very centralized. 495 00:26:19,395 --> 00:26:24,435 Alessandro Oppo: So, that's the first point, and there are many other reasons why media 496 00:26:24,435 --> 00:26:30,740 Alessandro Oppo: need to be the public space, needs to be regulated for democracy. If you leave it just to the market, 497 00:26:32,020 --> 00:26:36,180 Alessandro Oppo: it doesn't deliver democracy, and you can see this in many countries of the world. 498 00:26:36,995 --> 00:26:40,515 Alessandro Oppo: So that is my comment on the technology, 499 00:26:40,515 --> 00:26:44,355 Alessandro Oppo: which is probably closest to social networks 500 00:26:44,435 --> 00:26:45,715 Alessandro Oppo: and AI. 501 00:26:47,235 --> 00:26:48,115 Alessandro Oppo: But 502 00:26:48,115 --> 00:26:49,715 Alessandro Oppo: AI is a special 503 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:50,840 Alessandro Oppo: case 504 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:52,360 Alessandro Oppo: because 505 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:54,840 Alessandro Oppo: so far, 506 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:56,920 Alessandro Oppo: when we talk about 507 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,200 Alessandro Oppo: telephone 508 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,760 Alessandro Oppo: or we talk about social networks or we talk about book printing, 509 00:27:03,335 --> 00:27:04,855 Alessandro Oppo: These are distribution 510 00:27:04,855 --> 00:27:06,535 Alessandro Oppo: technologies of content. 511 00:27:07,095 --> 00:27:07,975 Alessandro Oppo: AI 512 00:27:08,775 --> 00:27:12,855 Alessandro Oppo: pushes people out of the production of content, 513 00:27:12,935 --> 00:27:14,135 Alessandro Oppo: of the thinking, 514 00:27:14,855 --> 00:27:16,855 Alessandro Oppo: and that is a completely new quality. 515 00:27:18,430 --> 00:27:20,990 Alessandro Oppo: And, so I think that the danger, 516 00:27:21,390 --> 00:27:24,830 Alessandro Oppo: to, democracy which needs sinking people, 517 00:27:25,390 --> 00:27:27,710 Alessandro Oppo: democracy only works which people 518 00:27:27,950 --> 00:27:30,190 Alessandro Oppo: which think themselves, which are responsible, 519 00:27:30,965 --> 00:27:33,445 Alessandro Oppo: which take part, and engage 520 00:27:33,445 --> 00:27:38,965 Alessandro Oppo: and inform themselves and get information that they can act, as citizens, 521 00:27:40,965 --> 00:27:45,205 Alessandro Oppo: if they are if if if the technology agenda is to push people out 522 00:27:46,010 --> 00:27:47,690 Alessandro Oppo: and to overcome them 523 00:27:48,010 --> 00:27:54,010 Alessandro Oppo: and to produce all the content they previously produced in their minds through the machine, 524 00:27:54,250 --> 00:27:56,170 Alessandro Oppo: well, where does that leave democracy? 525 00:27:56,970 --> 00:28:00,855 Alessandro Oppo: Where does that leave sinking people? Where where does that leave, 526 00:28:01,175 --> 00:28:02,055 Alessandro Oppo: responsible 527 00:28:02,055 --> 00:28:02,855 Alessandro Oppo: people? 528 00:28:03,575 --> 00:28:04,615 Alessandro Oppo: So I think, 529 00:28:05,015 --> 00:28:06,935 Alessandro Oppo: it is not correct 530 00:28:07,495 --> 00:28:09,255 Alessandro Oppo: to discuss theoretically 531 00:28:09,255 --> 00:28:10,935 Alessandro Oppo: about this technology only, 532 00:28:11,730 --> 00:28:15,330 Alessandro Oppo: but we always have to see this technology also together with the 533 00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:17,570 Alessandro Oppo: ambition which is behind it. 534 00:28:17,890 --> 00:28:21,250 Alessandro Oppo: The ambition behind AI is to demonstrate 535 00:28:21,650 --> 00:28:29,508 Alessandro Oppo: that the machine can do everything better than humans, and therefore humans should be pushed out. They should be pushed out of 536 00:28:29,508 --> 00:28:30,308 work, 537 00:28:30,265 --> 00:28:32,345 Alessandro Oppo: out of business processes. 538 00:28:33,545 --> 00:28:38,745 Alessandro Oppo: Mister Altman said it very clearly, the ideal company for me is me plus 1,000,000 agents. 539 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,800 Alessandro Oppo: AI agents, no human, 540 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,160 Alessandro Oppo: and, of course, push them out of democracy 541 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,160 Alessandro Oppo: and let us govern. 542 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:54,241 Alessandro Oppo: We want to govern. We are the new oligarchs. We have the technology. We want to govern. That is the ambition, and 543 00:28:54,241 --> 00:28:55,485 that is the agenda 544 00:28:56,045 --> 00:28:56,845 Alessandro Oppo: of 545 00:28:57,325 --> 00:29:02,685 Alessandro Oppo: most of these technology actors, and that's why they also happily line up with Trump. 546 00:29:03,165 --> 00:29:03,965 Paul Nemitz: And 547 00:29:05,245 --> 00:29:06,765 Paul Nemitz: and for the regulations, 548 00:29:08,210 --> 00:29:11,250 Paul Nemitz: because before you mentioned GDPR and the AI Act, 549 00:29:11,650 --> 00:29:18,850 Paul Nemitz: I wanted to ask you what it worked with the GDPR and what it didn't, and also for the AI Act issue 550 00:29:18,850 --> 00:29:20,690 Paul Nemitz: that, I mean, is still new. 551 00:29:22,725 --> 00:29:24,965 Alessandro Oppo: Yes. I think on both, 552 00:29:24,965 --> 00:29:29,125 Alessandro Oppo: we have to be realistic. They were political compromises 553 00:29:29,925 --> 00:29:31,205 Alessandro Oppo: at the time 554 00:29:31,845 --> 00:29:34,325 Alessandro Oppo: between a grand coalition of 555 00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:36,340 Alessandro Oppo: social democrats, 556 00:29:36,580 --> 00:29:37,700 Alessandro Oppo: conservatives, 557 00:29:37,780 --> 00:29:39,540 Alessandro Oppo: liberals, and greens. 558 00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:40,900 Alessandro Oppo: So 559 00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:41,940 Alessandro Oppo: they are 560 00:29:42,180 --> 00:29:43,300 Alessandro Oppo: halfway. 561 00:29:43,860 --> 00:29:44,660 Alessandro Oppo: You know? 562 00:29:45,540 --> 00:29:52,795 Alessandro Oppo: Some others, you know, if you come from the more, market neoliberal side, you would say, oh, we have avoided the worst, 563 00:29:53,355 --> 00:29:58,395 Alessandro Oppo: in terms of intervention in the market by by by the legislator. 564 00:29:58,795 --> 00:30:04,890 Alessandro Oppo: I am more on the social democratic side. I would say we have not gone far enough. 565 00:30:06,890 --> 00:30:12,330 Alessandro Oppo: So, you know, there are many things which could be done better in a second generation 566 00:30:12,330 --> 00:30:13,210 Alessandro Oppo: of these, 567 00:30:13,930 --> 00:30:14,890 Alessandro Oppo: laws 568 00:30:15,210 --> 00:30:16,490 Alessandro Oppo: in the public interest. 569 00:30:17,445 --> 00:30:19,685 Alessandro Oppo: The second problem is enforcement. 570 00:30:20,805 --> 00:30:21,605 Alessandro Oppo: For me, 571 00:30:22,085 --> 00:30:23,045 Alessandro Oppo: it's really 572 00:30:23,365 --> 00:30:30,725 Alessandro Oppo: the main point of weakness of GDPR enforcement is that none of the enforcement actions so far 573 00:30:30,965 --> 00:30:32,085 Alessandro Oppo: has gone 574 00:30:32,405 --> 00:30:33,205 Alessandro Oppo: for 575 00:30:33,340 --> 00:30:35,020 Alessandro Oppo: these all encompassing 576 00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:36,620 Alessandro Oppo: personality profiles, 577 00:30:36,620 --> 00:30:37,420 Alessandro Oppo: which are 578 00:30:37,820 --> 00:30:39,980 Alessandro Oppo: in the hands of Facebook, 579 00:30:40,860 --> 00:30:43,340 Alessandro Oppo: Meta, also Instagram contributes 580 00:30:43,340 --> 00:30:46,540 Alessandro Oppo: to that, of course, and Alphabet through, the search, 581 00:30:46,940 --> 00:30:51,385 Alessandro Oppo: now also through through Gemini and through YouTube. These two companies 582 00:30:52,265 --> 00:30:55,385 Alessandro Oppo: not only cash in 80% 583 00:30:55,625 --> 00:30:57,225 Alessandro Oppo: of all Internet 584 00:30:57,705 --> 00:30:59,305 Alessandro Oppo: based advertisement, 585 00:30:59,305 --> 00:31:00,265 Alessandro Oppo: which previously 586 00:31:00,745 --> 00:31:03,305 Alessandro Oppo: was money for the free press for journalism, 587 00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:05,430 Alessandro Oppo: and they are killing journalism, 588 00:31:05,910 --> 00:31:09,830 Alessandro Oppo: but they also constitute the core of data collection, 589 00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:11,990 Alessandro Oppo: which is then used 590 00:31:12,390 --> 00:31:18,470 Alessandro Oppo: to create this all encompassing profile of about all peoples. And I am of the firm opinion 591 00:31:18,895 --> 00:31:22,975 Alessandro Oppo: these profiles are absolutely illegal under GDPR, 592 00:31:23,375 --> 00:31:27,855 Alessandro Oppo: but the problem is the enforcement authorities are so small and so weak, 593 00:31:28,335 --> 00:31:32,495 Alessandro Oppo: and none of them dares to go for this central element 594 00:31:34,650 --> 00:31:35,450 Alessandro Oppo: of 595 00:31:35,770 --> 00:31:38,730 Alessandro Oppo: problematic data processing, 596 00:31:38,730 --> 00:31:42,010 Alessandro Oppo: because it's not only about the collection, it's also the fact that they 597 00:31:42,330 --> 00:31:43,290 Alessandro Oppo: consolidate 598 00:31:43,290 --> 00:31:44,250 Alessandro Oppo: the data, 599 00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:47,930 Alessandro Oppo: that they process it to to learn about people, 600 00:31:49,055 --> 00:31:49,855 Alessandro Oppo: and 601 00:31:50,175 --> 00:31:54,255 Alessandro Oppo: that they thus do things which are completely unproportionate. 602 00:31:55,295 --> 00:31:57,055 Alessandro Oppo: And they collect too much, 603 00:31:57,775 --> 00:31:59,775 Alessandro Oppo: and keep the data too long. 604 00:32:00,255 --> 00:32:02,655 Alessandro Oppo: And so 605 00:32:01,710 --> 00:32:06,190 Alessandro Oppo: we have a huge enforcement problem in Europe also because of the fragmentation 606 00:32:06,190 --> 00:32:08,190 Alessandro Oppo: of the enforcement authorities. 607 00:32:09,390 --> 00:32:10,190 Alessandro Oppo: And, 608 00:32:10,670 --> 00:32:11,950 Alessandro Oppo: we have a 609 00:32:12,190 --> 00:32:15,070 Alessandro Oppo: very specific enforcement problem with the AI Act, 610 00:32:15,535 --> 00:32:17,935 Alessandro Oppo: which is that in contrast to GDPR, 611 00:32:18,095 --> 00:32:20,655 Alessandro Oppo: people have no rights, it seems, 612 00:32:21,375 --> 00:32:23,455 Alessandro Oppo: to invoke the AI Act 613 00:32:23,935 --> 00:32:26,975 Alessandro Oppo: when they feel that they have a problem, 614 00:32:27,695 --> 00:32:32,320 Alessandro Oppo: with how AI is being used in relation to them. Why do I say this? 615 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,960 Alessandro Oppo: In GDPR it's very clear 616 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:42,313 Alessandro Oppo: that an individual has the right to complain to a data protection authority and the data protection authority has the duty to 617 00:32:42,313 --> 00:32:43,113 follow-up 618 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:43,760 Alessandro Oppo: this complaint. 619 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,760 Alessandro Oppo: In the AI act 620 00:32:46,705 --> 00:32:51,425 Alessandro Oppo: it's not clear whether the authorities have a duty to follow-up 621 00:32:51,425 --> 00:32:57,550 Alessandro Oppo: or whether they can just say, yes, yes, we take this into account. Thank you very much for your letter, but then 622 00:32:57,550 --> 00:32:58,385 do nothing specific. 623 00:32:58,705 --> 00:33:00,305 Alessandro Oppo: You'll have to see how things develop. 624 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:08,120 Alessandro Oppo: The proposal of the commission, of the European Commission, was clearly intended to exclude to exclude individual rights. 625 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,120 Alessandro Oppo: The European Parliament added 626 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,000 Alessandro Oppo: to, 627 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,135 Alessandro Oppo: the AI Act a Democracy Impact Assessment, 628 00:33:15,135 --> 00:33:19,215 Alessandro Oppo: but only for the use in the public sector, so not generally, 629 00:33:19,935 --> 00:33:22,015 Alessandro Oppo: maybe one can draw honey 630 00:33:22,255 --> 00:33:24,735 Alessandro Oppo: from this addition of the parliament, 631 00:33:25,455 --> 00:33:26,975 Alessandro Oppo: namely the 632 00:33:28,590 --> 00:33:30,910 Alessandro Oppo: the fundamental rights impact assessment, 633 00:33:31,470 --> 00:33:32,590 Alessandro Oppo: and argue, 634 00:33:33,070 --> 00:33:36,830 Alessandro Oppo: well, if an act contains a fundamental rights impact assessment, 635 00:33:37,150 --> 00:33:40,990 Alessandro Oppo: it serves the protection of fundamental rights, and therefore people should have 636 00:33:41,935 --> 00:33:49,615 Alessandro Oppo: an individual right to complain, and there should be a duty of the enforcement authorities to follow-up. 637 00:33:49,935 --> 00:33:53,055 Alessandro Oppo: But for that, we need jurisprudence. 638 00:33:53,055 --> 00:33:57,820 Alessandro Oppo: And I think this argument can be made. I would be willing to make it. 639 00:33:58,220 --> 00:33:59,020 Alessandro Oppo: But 640 00:33:59,980 --> 00:34:02,060 Alessandro Oppo: I'm not sure the jurisprudence 641 00:34:02,060 --> 00:34:03,180 Alessandro Oppo: would confirm 642 00:34:03,180 --> 00:34:10,098 Alessandro Oppo: that this is the right way to interpret the AI. My view is at least the commission proposal at the outset was 643 00:34:10,098 --> 00:34:11,985 clearly intended to exclude individual rights. 644 00:34:12,305 --> 00:34:13,825 Alessandro Oppo: And that's a huge problem. 645 00:34:14,705 --> 00:34:15,825 Alessandro Oppo: Because it means 646 00:34:16,385 --> 00:34:20,305 Alessandro Oppo: nobody can force the enforcement authorities to do anything. 647 00:34:20,785 --> 00:34:23,025 Alessandro Oppo: And that's the difference to GDPR. You see, GDPR, 648 00:34:24,610 --> 00:34:26,530 Alessandro Oppo: there have been cases already 649 00:34:26,850 --> 00:34:29,250 Alessandro Oppo: where civil society and individuals 650 00:34:29,490 --> 00:34:30,770 Alessandro Oppo: have forced 651 00:34:31,170 --> 00:34:32,850 Alessandro Oppo: enforcement authorities 652 00:34:33,090 --> 00:34:39,322 Alessandro Oppo: which, you know, have a natural inclination not to do anything. I can say it. I was myself a civil servant. The 653 00:34:39,322 --> 00:34:42,155 natural inclination of the civil servant is to do nothing. 654 00:34:42,555 --> 00:34:43,355 Alessandro Oppo: But in 655 00:34:43,515 --> 00:34:44,395 Alessandro Oppo: GDPR, 656 00:34:44,395 --> 00:34:45,675 Alessandro Oppo: they can be forced. 657 00:34:45,915 --> 00:34:47,915 Alessandro Oppo: And that's important because the 658 00:34:48,155 --> 00:34:49,755 Alessandro Oppo: enforcer needs to know 659 00:34:50,475 --> 00:34:53,595 Alessandro Oppo: that also if he or she does nothing, 660 00:34:54,870 --> 00:34:57,110 Alessandro Oppo: he or she will be taken to court, 661 00:34:57,670 --> 00:34:58,550 Alessandro Oppo: not only 662 00:34:58,950 --> 00:35:05,642 Alessandro Oppo: when he or she takes a tough decision. That's the big fear. Yeah? You know, I take a tough decision, and then 663 00:35:05,642 --> 00:35:12,335 I'm in court for years because, big tech companies are so rich. You know, they can go always to last instance, they 664 00:35:12,335 --> 00:35:19,027 put all the best lawyers of the world at this, and, so my work as a regulator is bogged down for years. 665 00:35:19,027 --> 00:35:21,765 That is the reason why many of the enforcers 666 00:35:21,765 --> 00:35:22,725 Alessandro Oppo: don't do 667 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,400 Alessandro Oppo: anything hard. 668 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,320 Alessandro Oppo: At least if an enforcer knows, if I don't act, 669 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,640 Alessandro Oppo: I will also be taken to court, 670 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,440 Alessandro Oppo: you know, there's an incentive to do something. 671 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,520 Paul Nemitz: And 672 00:35:34,815 --> 00:35:36,575 Paul Nemitz: in relation to enforcement, 673 00:35:36,575 --> 00:35:38,095 Paul Nemitz: I was thinking about 674 00:35:38,415 --> 00:35:40,015 Paul Nemitz: code is law from. 675 00:35:41,135 --> 00:35:44,575 Paul Nemitz: And so I was wondering because law 676 00:35:45,055 --> 00:35:46,975 Paul Nemitz: then has to be enforced. 677 00:35:47,530 --> 00:35:48,330 Paul Nemitz: Otherwise, 678 00:35:50,170 --> 00:35:54,650 Paul Nemitz: while, code in a way, it is enforced by itself. 679 00:35:57,770 --> 00:36:04,235 Paul Nemitz: The rule of how people can interact with a software are written in the software itself. 680 00:36:05,035 --> 00:36:07,115 Paul Nemitz: So I was wondering, 681 00:36:09,275 --> 00:36:10,955 Paul Nemitz: if, regulation 682 00:36:11,115 --> 00:36:13,275 Paul Nemitz: can also be done 683 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:14,760 Paul Nemitz: instead of 684 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:20,976 Paul Nemitz: I I mean, then it is the same in a way. Like, if you do it by policy, then you apply it 685 00:36:20,976 --> 00:36:21,776 also 686 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,200 Paul Nemitz: by design. So you apply also 687 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,720 Paul Nemitz: in how you write the code 688 00:36:28,155 --> 00:36:32,795 Paul Nemitz: that then is what the people are allowed to do or not to do. 689 00:36:35,035 --> 00:36:37,115 Paul Nemitz: I don't know if this is clear, like, 690 00:36:38,155 --> 00:36:39,275 Paul Nemitz: as an example, like, 691 00:36:40,510 --> 00:36:41,630 Paul Nemitz: if some people 692 00:36:43,150 --> 00:36:44,990 Paul Nemitz: if we use a WhatsApp group 693 00:36:46,270 --> 00:36:49,070 Paul Nemitz: and one person is the administrator, 694 00:36:49,470 --> 00:36:52,270 Paul Nemitz: then the rule of everything are written there. 695 00:36:54,485 --> 00:36:56,005 Paul Nemitz: And that person 696 00:36:56,725 --> 00:36:58,245 Paul Nemitz: could be the administrator, 697 00:37:01,125 --> 00:37:03,205 Paul Nemitz: I don't know, ban someone from the group. 698 00:37:06,820 --> 00:37:10,420 Paul Nemitz: But the actions that the people can do in the group, 699 00:37:10,740 --> 00:37:17,380 Paul Nemitz: let's say in the WhatsApp group are defined by the software. So I can click like, I can reply to a message, 700 00:37:17,780 --> 00:37:18,660 Paul Nemitz: I can 701 00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:20,100 Paul Nemitz: maybe delete a message. 702 00:37:22,995 --> 00:37:24,275 Paul Nemitz: So the software 703 00:37:24,275 --> 00:37:26,435 Paul Nemitz: is just giving some options. 704 00:37:27,075 --> 00:37:27,955 Paul Nemitz: And so 705 00:37:28,195 --> 00:37:29,715 Paul Nemitz: I wonder if 706 00:37:30,035 --> 00:37:31,075 Paul Nemitz: there could be, like, 707 00:37:33,830 --> 00:37:35,990 Paul Nemitz: always in relation to enforcement 708 00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:37,910 Paul Nemitz: if we can use code 709 00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:39,510 Paul Nemitz: as 710 00:37:41,110 --> 00:37:41,910 Paul Nemitz: law. 711 00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:42,950 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. 712 00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:43,830 Alessandro Oppo: Well, 713 00:37:43,830 --> 00:37:46,150 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, there is, of course, the famous book 714 00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:47,590 Alessandro Oppo: called 715 00:37:47,590 --> 00:37:50,525 Alessandro Oppo: Code as Law, and and the author, Harvard 716 00:37:50,925 --> 00:37:52,685 Alessandro Oppo: constitutional law professor, 717 00:37:53,485 --> 00:37:57,805 Alessandro Oppo: he said, 200 engineers rule how we live. 718 00:37:58,605 --> 00:38:01,325 Alessandro Oppo: And, of course, that's exactly not democracy. 719 00:38:01,980 --> 00:38:09,260 Alessandro Oppo: That's exactly what this company wants, that they set the rules in the community rules, how we communicate and how we live. 720 00:38:09,980 --> 00:38:13,180 Alessandro Oppo: So I'm not a great friend 721 00:38:14,235 --> 00:38:17,115 Alessandro Oppo: of of of this this idea. 722 00:38:17,515 --> 00:38:18,955 Alessandro Oppo: And, you know, 723 00:38:19,595 --> 00:38:21,515 Alessandro Oppo: code is written for stupids. 724 00:38:21,835 --> 00:38:23,515 Alessandro Oppo: Who are the stupids? 725 00:38:23,675 --> 00:38:25,835 Alessandro Oppo: The stupids are the computers 726 00:38:25,835 --> 00:38:28,395 Alessandro Oppo: because they cannot think themselves. 727 00:38:28,555 --> 00:38:33,910 Alessandro Oppo: That's why we always need a revision of the code, an update. 728 00:38:34,070 --> 00:38:40,804 Alessandro Oppo: We see it on our mobile phones, you know, every two months, we we need an update because the computer can't think 729 00:38:40,804 --> 00:38:41,604 itself. 730 00:38:42,245 --> 00:38:43,125 Alessandro Oppo: Law 731 00:38:43,365 --> 00:38:45,125 Alessandro Oppo: is written for humans. 732 00:38:45,605 --> 00:38:47,925 Alessandro Oppo: And humans can think themselves. 733 00:38:48,085 --> 00:38:50,565 Alessandro Oppo: A good law can be reinterpreted 734 00:38:50,565 --> 00:38:54,805 Alessandro Oppo: in light of developments of business model, of technology, of society 735 00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:57,180 Alessandro Oppo: by 736 00:38:57,340 --> 00:38:58,140 Alessandro Oppo: people, 737 00:38:58,220 --> 00:38:59,420 Alessandro Oppo: namely judges, 738 00:38:59,420 --> 00:39:01,260 Alessandro Oppo: who can think for themselves. 739 00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:04,300 Alessandro Oppo: And so I'm actually not convinced 740 00:39:04,620 --> 00:39:05,420 Alessandro Oppo: that 741 00:39:06,140 --> 00:39:10,140 Alessandro Oppo: to give shape and control and and direct 742 00:39:10,775 --> 00:39:11,815 Alessandro Oppo: technology, 743 00:39:11,815 --> 00:39:14,535 Alessandro Oppo: or for that matter, behavior in society, 744 00:39:16,215 --> 00:39:18,695 Alessandro Oppo: it's an advantage to put it all in code. 745 00:39:18,935 --> 00:39:22,775 Alessandro Oppo: I would say the legal system, you know, is a pretty efficient 746 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,200 Alessandro Oppo: system exactly because you don't need to rewrite 747 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,960 Alessandro Oppo: the code, the law, 748 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,800 Alessandro Oppo: all the time when there is a change of circumstances. 749 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,320 Alessandro Oppo: The trick is here that law must be of course technology neutral, 750 00:39:38,035 --> 00:39:46,131 Alessandro Oppo: and it must be not too specific, not using the buzzwords of the day, but written at a certain level of abstraction 751 00:39:46,131 --> 00:39:49,075 so that it keeps meaning also if circumstances 752 00:39:49,075 --> 00:39:49,875 Alessandro Oppo: change. 753 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,520 Alessandro Oppo: But there's another argument against 754 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:53,800 Alessandro Oppo: code as law, 755 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,240 Alessandro Oppo: and that is 756 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,960 Alessandro Oppo: if we mean it with democracy, 757 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,200 Alessandro Oppo: the laws must be understandable 758 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:06,379 Alessandro Oppo: to people. Now, I granted to you that many laws today are complicated, and if you read it as a normal person 759 00:40:06,379 --> 00:40:08,345 the first time, oh god, it's difficult. 760 00:40:08,745 --> 00:40:09,865 Alessandro Oppo: But at least 761 00:40:10,105 --> 00:40:13,625 Alessandro Oppo: it's written in the language which you understand. 762 00:40:13,705 --> 00:40:15,145 Alessandro Oppo: And if you make an effort, 763 00:40:16,050 --> 00:40:19,650 Alessandro Oppo: and if you research a little bit, you will understand 764 00:40:19,650 --> 00:40:20,530 Alessandro Oppo: the law. 765 00:40:21,330 --> 00:40:22,610 Alessandro Oppo: But with code, 766 00:40:23,170 --> 00:40:25,170 Alessandro Oppo: I don't think we can hope for 767 00:40:25,330 --> 00:40:26,770 Alessandro Oppo: that people understand, 768 00:40:27,695 --> 00:40:29,935 Alessandro Oppo: you know, and that we have parliamentary 769 00:40:29,935 --> 00:40:32,655 Alessandro Oppo: debates about the code and this and that. 770 00:40:33,295 --> 00:40:37,135 Alessandro Oppo: That is much more removed from the normal individual 771 00:40:37,135 --> 00:40:38,415 Alessandro Oppo: understanding code 772 00:40:38,415 --> 00:40:39,615 Alessandro Oppo: than understanding 773 00:40:39,615 --> 00:40:40,415 Alessandro Oppo: language. 774 00:40:41,060 --> 00:40:42,260 Alessandro Oppo: And so, 775 00:40:42,260 --> 00:40:43,940 Alessandro Oppo: you know, I would say, 776 00:40:44,740 --> 00:40:46,420 Alessandro Oppo: let's rehabilitate 777 00:40:46,740 --> 00:40:51,460 Alessandro Oppo: the normal human language before the code. I think it is fundamentally 778 00:40:51,460 --> 00:40:54,100 Alessandro Oppo: wrong to say children must learn coding in school. 779 00:40:54,715 --> 00:40:56,635 Alessandro Oppo: No. I would say they must learn 780 00:40:57,195 --> 00:40:59,995 Alessandro Oppo: to express themselves properly in the language. 781 00:41:00,475 --> 00:41:03,835 Alessandro Oppo: Also, by the way, in order to live together peacefully and, 782 00:41:03,995 --> 00:41:05,675 Alessandro Oppo: you know, in a way 783 00:41:06,075 --> 00:41:06,875 Alessandro Oppo: which is, 784 00:41:08,310 --> 00:41:12,950 Alessandro Oppo: you know, a good way of living together. You must master the human language, 785 00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:14,550 Alessandro Oppo: and 786 00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:17,510 Alessandro Oppo: that should be our priority. We have to rehabilitate 787 00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:19,750 Alessandro Oppo: the normal language before the code, 788 00:41:20,245 --> 00:41:21,925 Alessandro Oppo: and also for democracy, 789 00:41:21,925 --> 00:41:23,285 Alessandro Oppo: the language is key. 790 00:41:24,085 --> 00:41:24,885 Alessandro Oppo: So, 791 00:41:25,765 --> 00:41:28,725 Alessandro Oppo: I don't believe I know, also in Germany, 792 00:41:28,805 --> 00:41:33,205 Alessandro Oppo: there are, and and all over Europe, also the OECD has projects, 793 00:41:34,005 --> 00:41:35,445 Alessandro Oppo: to digitalize law. 794 00:41:35,970 --> 00:41:42,646 Alessandro Oppo: Yes, you know, that can work on some types of law, like traffic law and law which is very numerical, like tax 795 00:41:42,646 --> 00:41:44,770 law and so on, that can work. 796 00:41:45,490 --> 00:41:46,290 Alessandro Oppo: But 797 00:41:46,770 --> 00:41:47,970 Alessandro Oppo: digitalizing 798 00:41:48,290 --> 00:41:49,570 Alessandro Oppo: constitutions 799 00:41:49,650 --> 00:41:51,490 Alessandro Oppo: or digitalizing 800 00:41:52,505 --> 00:41:55,465 Alessandro Oppo: take AI Act or or GDPR, 801 00:41:55,785 --> 00:41:58,345 Alessandro Oppo: you know, honestly, I think that is again 802 00:41:58,505 --> 00:41:59,385 Alessandro Oppo: hubris 803 00:41:59,385 --> 00:42:07,309 Alessandro Oppo: of the engineering world of computer science to think they can do everything. They cannot do everything. For example, Stuart Russell, 804 00:42:07,309 --> 00:42:11,460 is a computer scientist, says it very clearly in his book, 805 00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:13,700 Alessandro Oppo: The 806 00:42:13,860 --> 00:42:15,220 Alessandro Oppo: Problem of Control. 807 00:42:15,380 --> 00:42:16,260 Alessandro Oppo: He says, 808 00:42:16,580 --> 00:42:17,380 Alessandro Oppo: every AI 809 00:42:18,095 --> 00:42:22,335 Alessandro Oppo: must be programmed in such a way that when a value judgment is necessary, 810 00:42:22,335 --> 00:42:27,855 Alessandro Oppo: the program must stop and return to the human because AI cannot do value judgments. 811 00:42:28,015 --> 00:42:30,735 Alessandro Oppo: Value judgments can only be done by humans. 812 00:42:31,135 --> 00:42:32,015 Alessandro Oppo: So I would say, 813 00:42:33,410 --> 00:42:36,450 Alessandro Oppo: you know, we have to fight the narrative 814 00:42:37,010 --> 00:42:41,010 Alessandro Oppo: that humans are useless, everything can be done by AI, 815 00:42:41,410 --> 00:42:43,730 Alessandro Oppo: and, we have to insist 816 00:42:44,050 --> 00:42:44,850 Alessandro Oppo: that 817 00:42:44,930 --> 00:42:47,650 Alessandro Oppo: democracy can never be done by the machine 818 00:42:47,915 --> 00:42:53,035 Alessandro Oppo: and that there are many things which human can do with with human language, 819 00:42:53,595 --> 00:42:58,235 Paul Nemitz: which AI cannot do. Of course, it's very important that every 820 00:42:59,515 --> 00:43:01,035 Paul Nemitz: person is able to think 821 00:43:01,515 --> 00:43:02,475 Paul Nemitz: and 822 00:43:03,020 --> 00:43:03,900 Paul Nemitz: decide, 823 00:43:04,460 --> 00:43:07,580 Paul Nemitz: and also having a politics where there are people. 824 00:43:08,380 --> 00:43:10,700 Paul Nemitz: I think that is very fascinating about 825 00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:12,220 Paul Nemitz: Kodi's law 826 00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:14,860 Paul Nemitz: is that law can be 827 00:43:15,340 --> 00:43:16,620 Paul Nemitz: is interpreted 828 00:43:16,975 --> 00:43:20,895 Paul Nemitz: and maybe code can seems more, like, objective 829 00:43:20,895 --> 00:43:22,015 Paul Nemitz: in some way. 830 00:43:24,495 --> 00:43:25,855 Paul Nemitz: I'm thinking about this. 831 00:43:26,095 --> 00:43:26,895 Paul Nemitz: And then 832 00:43:28,335 --> 00:43:29,695 Paul Nemitz: if you have a 833 00:43:29,855 --> 00:43:35,110 Paul Nemitz: sort of final message also for the people who or all the people who are trying to, 834 00:43:36,630 --> 00:43:37,430 Paul Nemitz: innovate 835 00:43:37,590 --> 00:43:38,790 Paul Nemitz: on democracy 836 00:43:39,110 --> 00:43:39,910 Paul Nemitz: or, 837 00:43:40,710 --> 00:43:42,470 Paul Nemitz: yeah, working on similar things. 838 00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:46,785 Alessandro Oppo: Yes. I would say, the challenge is to democratize 839 00:43:46,785 --> 00:43:48,785 Alessandro Oppo: the digital and democratize 840 00:43:48,785 --> 00:43:49,745 Alessandro Oppo: the AI 841 00:43:50,145 --> 00:43:54,145 Alessandro Oppo: rather than the other way around to digitalize democracy 842 00:43:54,145 --> 00:43:56,785 Alessandro Oppo: and, you know, make democracy 843 00:43:56,785 --> 00:43:59,185 Alessandro Oppo: the object of AI 844 00:43:59,850 --> 00:44:02,410 Alessandro Oppo: consensus finding or or whatever. 845 00:44:02,890 --> 00:44:05,130 Alessandro Oppo: So let's 846 00:44:05,130 --> 00:44:05,930 Alessandro Oppo: work 847 00:44:05,930 --> 00:44:07,930 Alessandro Oppo: together to democratize 848 00:44:07,930 --> 00:44:08,730 Alessandro Oppo: AI, 849 00:44:08,730 --> 00:44:09,610 Alessandro Oppo: to decentralize 850 00:44:09,610 --> 00:44:11,770 Alessandro Oppo: AI as a technology. Let's develop, 851 00:44:12,485 --> 00:44:17,925 Alessandro Oppo: and I call on you because I can't develop, I call on people who have the technological knowledge, 852 00:44:18,565 --> 00:44:21,285 Alessandro Oppo: to develop AI which is decentral, 853 00:44:21,765 --> 00:44:24,325 Alessandro Oppo: which doesn't allow power concentration, 854 00:44:24,485 --> 00:44:25,685 Alessandro Oppo: which spreads 855 00:44:25,685 --> 00:44:26,485 Alessandro Oppo: wealth 856 00:44:27,450 --> 00:44:29,930 Alessandro Oppo: in different countries and different regions, 857 00:44:30,650 --> 00:44:31,450 Alessandro Oppo: and 858 00:44:31,450 --> 00:44:32,650 Alessandro Oppo: which is also 859 00:44:33,850 --> 00:44:34,730 Alessandro Oppo: controlled 860 00:44:34,730 --> 00:44:40,730 Alessandro Oppo: by different entities and, you know, not just by five or six or 10 companies 861 00:44:41,905 --> 00:44:47,918 Alessandro Oppo: in the world. I think that's what we should be aiming for, and I'm happy to hear from time to time that 862 00:44:47,918 --> 00:44:48,718 edge computing 863 00:44:48,465 --> 00:44:50,945 Alessandro Oppo: and maybe also open weight 864 00:44:51,425 --> 00:44:53,505 Alessandro Oppo: AI models may go in this direction. 865 00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:55,200 Alessandro Oppo: Every 866 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:56,960 Alessandro Oppo: type of decentralization 867 00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,880 Alessandro Oppo: of the technology itself 868 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:05,220 Alessandro Oppo: and of the control of the technology is a step forward and is good for democracy. That's the first point. The second 869 00:45:05,220 --> 00:45:06,020 point is 870 00:45:06,545 --> 00:45:07,345 Alessandro Oppo: democracy 871 00:45:07,345 --> 00:45:08,945 Alessandro Oppo: needs the technological 872 00:45:08,945 --> 00:45:12,145 Alessandro Oppo: knowledge of the new technical intelligentsia, 873 00:45:12,145 --> 00:45:18,705 Alessandro Oppo: the people who work with digital and AI, which develop it, which use it as professionals, 874 00:45:18,705 --> 00:45:19,505 Alessandro Oppo: and so on. 875 00:45:20,930 --> 00:45:25,410 Alessandro Oppo: And I would invite all of you to participate in one 876 00:45:25,410 --> 00:45:29,490 Alessandro Oppo: way or the other through a party, through an NGO, 877 00:45:29,730 --> 00:45:35,570 Alessandro Oppo: through a trade or or or professional organization in democratic dialogue and democratic process. 878 00:45:36,125 --> 00:45:38,125 Alessandro Oppo: That's what our society needs 879 00:45:38,365 --> 00:45:40,125 Alessandro Oppo: also from technologists, 880 00:45:40,205 --> 00:45:42,045 Alessandro Oppo: not just the technology as such. 881 00:45:42,828 --> 00:45:44,188 Paul Nemitz: Thank you a lot, Paul, 882 00:45:44,588 --> 00:45:48,508 Paul Nemitz: and if you'd like to add anything else that maybe we didn't touch. 883 00:45:49,388 --> 00:45:53,548 Alessandro Oppo: Thank you, Alessandro. It was good to talk to you. My pleasure.