1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,840 Alessandro Oppo: Welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator podcast, and our guest of today is Oliver Schulbaum. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,600 Olivier Schulbaum: So Hi there. Hello. 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:14,960 Alessandro Oppo: So thank you, Oliver. And if you'd like to share something about you and 4 00:00:15,285 --> 00:00:16,565 Alessandro Oppo: your path. 5 00:00:17,285 --> 00:00:23,689 Olivier Schulbaum: Right, yes, maybe to make it very short, I always thought since I was a child, I would be a poet and 6 00:00:23,689 --> 00:00:27,765 apparently it's not quite there yet, but actually, if you want a little secret, 7 00:00:27,765 --> 00:00:31,530 Olivier Schulbaum: I was a young poet champion in France some time ago, 8 00:00:31,930 --> 00:00:38,558 Olivier Schulbaum: but then that drove me to say, well, I need to be an artist if I can be a poet, so then 9 00:00:38,558 --> 00:00:44,885 I thought I needed to do study art and then I studied arts at the art school in design and communication 10 00:00:44,965 --> 00:00:46,725 Olivier Schulbaum: and this is how I got into, 11 00:00:47,045 --> 00:00:49,765 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, video editing and then slowly 12 00:00:50,085 --> 00:00:55,685 Olivier Schulbaum: into documentary filmmaking and this is basically where my head started exploded on, you know, 13 00:00:56,350 --> 00:00:57,870 Olivier Schulbaum: the amount of money 14 00:00:58,430 --> 00:01:04,954 Olivier Schulbaum: people who want to provide information to others needs to pay to public archives or to private archives, if you want to 15 00:01:04,954 --> 00:01:11,478 talk about anything about something that has been recorded or something historical like you know, civil war, second war. You need to 16 00:01:11,478 --> 00:01:17,705 pay for any second of these archives you want to have in your documentary and this is where I started thinking, 17 00:01:18,105 --> 00:01:24,303 Olivier Schulbaum: so that's, isn't there a solution to open up more like, you know, think about the commons of knowledge and then this 18 00:01:24,303 --> 00:01:27,120 is where I basically learned about, you know, open licensing 19 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,600 Olivier Schulbaum: and then met like crazy guys, 20 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:30,880 Olivier Schulbaum: the time I was in 21 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:32,480 Olivier Schulbaum: Berlin, a big, 22 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:40,733 Olivier Schulbaum: I remember Florian Kramer, he was the first about talking about codes and poetry, so codes as poetry, is basically where I, 23 00:01:40,733 --> 00:01:48,186 you know, I derive into code and civic tech, is probably something we'll be talking about, but you know, I'm not a 24 00:01:48,186 --> 00:01:48,986 determinist 25 00:01:48,525 --> 00:01:53,485 Olivier Schulbaum: from the start, I'm basically thinking that art based methodology are the best to create dialogue, 26 00:01:54,270 --> 00:02:02,917 Olivier Schulbaum: even like deal with conflicts and create democracy. So this is basically where I come into civic tech, but really my training 27 00:02:02,917 --> 00:02:03,717 is 28 00:02:04,270 --> 00:02:10,947 Olivier Schulbaum: humanities or right now that would be something associated with data humanities and deliberations, something like that. This is my 29 00:02:10,947 --> 00:02:15,955 dream was not really true, but, you know, I do I do, you know, political 30 00:02:16,835 --> 00:02:23,212 Olivier Schulbaum: poetry somehow sometimes to express myself, to talk about our work. So for, you know, forgive me if I if I speak 31 00:02:23,212 --> 00:02:26,980 in rhymes and all these bullshit, but, you know, let's make it fun. 32 00:02:27,860 --> 00:02:33,460 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. And then, I mean, it could be possible that your career moved to just poetry, 33 00:02:34,100 --> 00:02:38,820 Olivier Schulbaum: maybe? Maybe I'll get back to it because tomorrow there's an eclipse 34 00:02:38,385 --> 00:02:44,393 Olivier Schulbaum: and where I'm standing in in the Balearic Island now, this is the best spot to see it. So probably I will 35 00:02:44,393 --> 00:02:46,305 be blinded by, you know, the the 36 00:02:46,385 --> 00:02:47,265 Olivier Schulbaum: the black 37 00:02:47,505 --> 00:02:53,678 Olivier Schulbaum: lights tomorrow and the eclipse, and I changed, you know, tomorrow maybe we can speak again, and then I'm I'm back to 38 00:02:53,678 --> 00:02:59,570 poetry, obscure poetry being the trying to be the head gallant ball of democracy, I don't think it would work anyway. 39 00:03:00,530 --> 00:03:02,610 Olivier Schulbaum: But anyway, now maybe just to, 40 00:03:03,250 --> 00:03:06,850 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, geographically, I mentioned I was really influenced by the scene in Berlin, 41 00:03:07,485 --> 00:03:12,205 Olivier Schulbaum: but this is basically when I met Susana and we founded Platonic Together and she was into 42 00:03:13,245 --> 00:03:15,085 Olivier Schulbaum: occupation and alternative 43 00:03:15,245 --> 00:03:16,125 Olivier Schulbaum: economies 44 00:03:16,365 --> 00:03:22,045 Olivier Schulbaum: in Barcelona and basically because of love, this is the best excuse in the world to do, to work on democracy. 45 00:03:22,290 --> 00:03:26,210 Olivier Schulbaum: I just moved to Barcelona and it's then, that was the second 46 00:03:26,690 --> 00:03:28,050 Olivier Schulbaum: exploding moment for me 47 00:03:28,930 --> 00:03:34,073 Olivier Schulbaum: because of the light, the quality of light, but also the fact that all our activism was happening on the streets and 48 00:03:34,073 --> 00:03:39,216 not in bunkers like in Berlin. So this is basically, you know, platonic at the end of the day is a bit 49 00:03:39,216 --> 00:03:42,255 of a mix of the two culture of Susanna and me together. And 50 00:03:42,575 --> 00:03:50,041 Olivier Schulbaum: at the beginning, actually, wanted to be an independent label because by the time we were doing internet radio, which is really 51 00:03:50,041 --> 00:03:50,841 old already, 52 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,920 Olivier Schulbaum: and then we thought we need an internet label. 53 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,640 Olivier Schulbaum: So we did lots of projects around like using, 54 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,360 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, music or digital labels 55 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,360 Olivier Schulbaum: as a vehicle to talk about 56 00:04:02,285 --> 00:04:03,805 Olivier Schulbaum: how, you know, the 57 00:04:04,605 --> 00:04:05,965 Olivier Schulbaum: effects of patterns 58 00:04:06,845 --> 00:04:07,645 Olivier Schulbaum: and 59 00:04:07,885 --> 00:04:08,765 Olivier Schulbaum: copyright 60 00:04:08,925 --> 00:04:11,965 Olivier Schulbaum: on society and on dialogue. So this is basically 61 00:04:12,205 --> 00:04:15,245 Olivier Schulbaum: where all these interests for us on developing technology, 62 00:04:15,405 --> 00:04:21,347 Olivier Schulbaum: which basically was a kind of a, we call this burn station. It was basically a sound system that moved in the 63 00:04:21,347 --> 00:04:27,289 street with like computers where people could copy music. We had like free licensed music and we had like lots of live 64 00:04:27,289 --> 00:04:29,180 acts and then talking about, you know, 65 00:04:30,325 --> 00:04:32,085 Olivier Schulbaum: patents on health, 66 00:04:32,325 --> 00:04:39,255 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, all that kind. So music and art in general is the best, for me, it's the best vehicle to bring, 67 00:04:39,255 --> 00:04:42,405 you know, to deal with conflict, to deal with polarized 68 00:04:42,485 --> 00:04:50,700 Olivier Schulbaum: positions and this is how we came into work, working also on free software technology. So we always have been developing 69 00:04:51,420 --> 00:04:56,540 Olivier Schulbaum: our own tech and started from scratch just as a way of learning because Susana is a learner 70 00:04:56,860 --> 00:05:03,873 Olivier Schulbaum: and she's a hacker in her nurse learner. So this this is basically the way we approach technology by creating small open 71 00:05:03,873 --> 00:05:10,886 source tech with different communities and see that would work. And at some point we created Goteo, which is an alternative funding 72 00:05:10,886 --> 00:05:11,686 platform 73 00:05:11,685 --> 00:05:17,860 Olivier Schulbaum: in Spain and it took it took up. So this is basically where we started designing like 74 00:05:18,180 --> 00:05:22,180 Olivier Schulbaum: next serious, let's say, serious open source technology. 75 00:05:22,180 --> 00:05:25,380 Olivier Schulbaum: And this is basically how we came into into developing 76 00:05:25,460 --> 00:05:27,620 Olivier Schulbaum: technology with with a meaning, let's say. 77 00:05:29,415 --> 00:05:31,815 Alessandro Oppo: And the Platonic Foundation, 78 00:05:32,055 --> 00:05:33,095 Alessandro Oppo: what is doing? 79 00:05:33,735 --> 00:05:37,335 Olivier Schulbaum: That's actually a great question and probably not the best name. 80 00:05:37,575 --> 00:05:39,735 Olivier Schulbaum: We should maybe thought about being Socratic, 81 00:05:39,735 --> 00:05:44,910 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, it would be more, even more fun. But anyway, I can deal with the myth of the caravan, 82 00:05:45,230 --> 00:05:47,870 Olivier Schulbaum: won't talk about that today, but basically Platonic would, 83 00:05:48,190 --> 00:05:54,990 Olivier Schulbaum: the foundation was at the intersection of, let's say, participation, civic technology, culture, social innovation, and democratic experimentation, 84 00:05:54,990 --> 00:05:55,790 Olivier Schulbaum: I would say. 85 00:05:57,445 --> 00:05:58,725 Olivier Schulbaum: And basically 86 00:05:59,845 --> 00:06:04,805 Olivier Schulbaum: what we try to do is creating more and more communities for citizens to participate 87 00:06:05,445 --> 00:06:13,521 Olivier Schulbaum: while people increasingly think that they have less and less political agencies. So we create an other bridge between institution and 88 00:06:13,521 --> 00:06:14,321 grassroots movements. 89 00:06:15,090 --> 00:06:18,610 Olivier Schulbaum: So we build platforms, we love consultations, 90 00:06:18,610 --> 00:06:24,477 Olivier Schulbaum: but we love cities and assemblies, but we see the limits and the obstacles of them. So we trying to redesign all 91 00:06:24,477 --> 00:06:25,277 this from 92 00:06:25,650 --> 00:06:26,450 Olivier Schulbaum: a more, 93 00:06:27,465 --> 00:06:33,969 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, intersessional point of view, but we talk probably about that a little bit more. So yes, we have increasingly sophisticated 94 00:06:33,969 --> 00:06:34,769 methodologies 95 00:06:34,265 --> 00:06:35,305 Olivier Schulbaum: and our tools. 96 00:06:36,345 --> 00:06:39,305 Olivier Schulbaum: So yeah, that's the issue. And we are basically a foundation, 97 00:06:39,990 --> 00:06:45,160 Olivier Schulbaum: there's a reason for it because we shall be, we part of the social and social economic, we shall be a cooperative, 98 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,510 but in fact, we need it to be a foundation 99 00:06:47,670 --> 00:06:50,550 Olivier Schulbaum: because of that Coteo platform we created, which is basically, 100 00:06:51,030 --> 00:06:54,635 Olivier Schulbaum: it's kind of a, you know, we call it the Trojan Crowdfunding 101 00:06:54,635 --> 00:07:02,707 Olivier Schulbaum: as the Trojan horse of the comments. So we use the standard of crowdfunding just to finance social impact projects and project 102 00:07:02,707 --> 00:07:05,275 that we're building or retrieving or protecting 103 00:07:06,230 --> 00:07:09,590 Olivier Schulbaum: an intangible, tangible physical and digital comments. 104 00:07:10,150 --> 00:07:12,550 Olivier Schulbaum: And by the time we were thinking and designing 105 00:07:13,270 --> 00:07:14,870 Olivier Schulbaum: the old statement 106 00:07:15,110 --> 00:07:21,385 Olivier Schulbaum: or mission for it, thought, yeah, well, if now, because I must say it could have happened 107 00:07:23,225 --> 00:07:26,185 Olivier Schulbaum: by the time that the, you know, 2008, 108 00:07:26,185 --> 00:07:27,465 Olivier Schulbaum: we started to design it. 109 00:07:27,785 --> 00:07:30,585 Olivier Schulbaum: And this is basically what, by the time we had like 110 00:07:31,305 --> 00:07:33,680 Olivier Schulbaum: a big crisis of financing 111 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,400 Olivier Schulbaum: social and political projects, 112 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:42,480 Olivier Schulbaum: also like micro credits at the bank that used to finance social projects were basically 113 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,680 Olivier Schulbaum: completely dry and ending, so we thought we needed tool to be, 114 00:07:46,355 --> 00:07:52,435 Olivier Schulbaum: and this is basically how we started building Godel, but we thought if, you know, now we basically a 100% 115 00:07:52,995 --> 00:07:57,715 Olivier Schulbaum: pending on citizens supporting commerce project and the public, 116 00:07:59,410 --> 00:08:05,810 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, the public administration is not part of it, it's not really fair. So we thought, you know, at least whenever 117 00:08:06,050 --> 00:08:11,010 Olivier Schulbaum: someone is financing or helping financing a project, if I take a €100, 118 00:08:11,010 --> 00:08:14,290 Olivier Schulbaum: if I have this economic capacity and supporting the project in Barcelona, 119 00:08:15,035 --> 00:08:18,475 Olivier Schulbaum: Basically we did a little hack, and this is why we are a foundation, 120 00:08:18,795 --> 00:08:20,395 Olivier Schulbaum: you get 80% 121 00:08:20,395 --> 00:08:23,515 Olivier Schulbaum: of the money back from the state, 122 00:08:23,915 --> 00:08:29,447 Olivier Schulbaum: which is basically a little hack, the more you invest, the more you donate in GoTeo, the more you get back from 123 00:08:29,447 --> 00:08:33,470 the state. And then, you know, if you keep on doing that, I think it's nice 124 00:08:34,350 --> 00:08:40,847 Olivier Schulbaum: little hack. So I think, you know, I should also take care of what I'm saying publicly because, know, it's a very 125 00:08:40,847 --> 00:08:44,095 nice hack, but, know, we also on the lots of threats 126 00:08:44,175 --> 00:08:47,295 Olivier Schulbaum: from especially right wings, right 127 00:08:47,295 --> 00:08:48,335 Olivier Schulbaum: wings parties 128 00:08:48,415 --> 00:08:51,375 Olivier Schulbaum: and governments right now and extreme right, 129 00:08:52,335 --> 00:08:54,735 Olivier Schulbaum: just because of the success of the tool, 130 00:08:55,055 --> 00:08:57,135 Olivier Schulbaum: because we have raised 131 00:08:57,770 --> 00:09:02,410 Olivier Schulbaum: almost 25 millions for political projects. Some of them are about, you know, 132 00:09:04,250 --> 00:09:05,050 Olivier Schulbaum: basically, 133 00:09:07,130 --> 00:09:08,570 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, paying for 134 00:09:09,450 --> 00:09:11,370 Olivier Schulbaum: solidarity 135 00:09:11,530 --> 00:09:15,575 Olivier Schulbaum: cases, you know, so some groups have been, as an example, 136 00:09:15,975 --> 00:09:16,775 Olivier Schulbaum: been basically 137 00:09:17,735 --> 00:09:20,775 Olivier Schulbaum: have to pay a lot of money because they were striking, 138 00:09:21,015 --> 00:09:28,131 Olivier Schulbaum: so we just basically repay it and we also sometimes litigate against government for the project, so which is, you know, puts 139 00:09:28,131 --> 00:09:33,630 us in the position that we do institutional participation, but sometimes we're also conscious that, you know, 140 00:09:34,670 --> 00:09:36,350 Olivier Schulbaum: there's still some obscurity 141 00:09:36,510 --> 00:09:43,144 Olivier Schulbaum: that needs to be put in the light in the public administration. That's also why I'm an active member of the board 142 00:09:43,144 --> 00:09:45,255 of another foundation called CVO, they do 143 00:09:46,295 --> 00:09:47,095 Olivier Schulbaum: civic, 144 00:09:47,335 --> 00:09:50,295 Olivier Schulbaum: let's say journalism and they litigate against governments. 145 00:09:50,375 --> 00:09:53,095 Olivier Schulbaum: So they have a few cases that are really 146 00:09:53,575 --> 00:09:55,655 Olivier Schulbaum: some case studies for, I would say 147 00:09:56,620 --> 00:09:58,380 Olivier Schulbaum: in Europe at least, so they 148 00:09:58,780 --> 00:10:00,460 Olivier Schulbaum: won a case against the government, 149 00:10:01,420 --> 00:10:05,660 Olivier Schulbaum: Spanish government that didn't release the code of COSCO, which is basically 150 00:10:07,980 --> 00:10:09,500 Olivier Schulbaum: a tool to determine 151 00:10:09,685 --> 00:10:13,365 Olivier Schulbaum: if people on the vulnerable conditions can access 152 00:10:13,605 --> 00:10:16,165 Olivier Schulbaum: a bonus, know, something like a cheaper 153 00:10:16,565 --> 00:10:17,365 Olivier Schulbaum: energy 154 00:10:17,605 --> 00:10:22,725 Olivier Schulbaum: and the code was not released and it's public code, so that's an example of litigation 155 00:10:23,045 --> 00:10:30,570 Olivier Schulbaum: from civil society that creates precedence for others to build that. So I think that's important that money 156 00:10:30,570 --> 00:10:37,210 Olivier Schulbaum: is some of the main obstacle that civic society has to build more, you know, grassroots 157 00:10:38,465 --> 00:10:39,825 Olivier Schulbaum: incidents or 158 00:10:40,545 --> 00:10:41,585 Olivier Schulbaum: advocacies. 159 00:10:41,585 --> 00:10:43,585 Olivier Schulbaum: This is basically what we call crowdvocacy. 160 00:10:44,705 --> 00:10:47,185 Alessandro Oppo: Okay. And I was thinking like during 161 00:10:47,665 --> 00:10:48,545 Alessandro Oppo: this time, 162 00:10:49,825 --> 00:10:51,745 Alessandro Oppo: have you seen any changes in, 163 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,160 Alessandro Oppo: don't know, in the civic tech field or 164 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,720 Alessandro Oppo: similar and connected fields? 165 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,040 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah. For sure. 166 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:05,880 Olivier Schulbaum: I I would say Decidim is one of the other example, and actually, it's it's also 167 00:11:07,145 --> 00:11:11,225 Olivier Schulbaum: important to mention both Broteo and the city happens 168 00:11:12,825 --> 00:11:16,745 Olivier Schulbaum: in Barcelona, which is a city which has a long tradition of, you know, 169 00:11:17,225 --> 00:11:22,930 Olivier Schulbaum: like free schools, if you took like rationalist school during the second civil war, and that's not 170 00:11:23,250 --> 00:11:30,229 Olivier Schulbaum: something disconnected from the fact that an open source technology for participation such as Gotheo or Decilim is built in that environment 171 00:11:30,229 --> 00:11:32,450 because the culture is basically also teaching 172 00:11:32,530 --> 00:11:39,585 Olivier Schulbaum: lines of codes for us, know, It's basic, almost like automatic writing, the code should be responsible for, you know, 173 00:11:40,945 --> 00:11:42,625 Olivier Schulbaum: empowerment of society 174 00:11:42,705 --> 00:11:49,326 Olivier Schulbaum: and the people using it. So I think it's pretty interesting. So what I've seen, of course, by the adoption of decedim 175 00:11:49,326 --> 00:11:50,530 by more than 500 176 00:11:51,090 --> 00:11:52,530 Olivier Schulbaum: instances, governments, 177 00:11:53,170 --> 00:12:00,684 Olivier Schulbaum: cooperatives among the world makes it something to be considered by the commission as the tool to be reused and adapted. So 178 00:12:00,684 --> 00:12:02,050 it's also used for 179 00:12:02,785 --> 00:12:06,705 Olivier Schulbaum: all these European cities and assemblies. So I think it's interesting to 180 00:12:07,105 --> 00:12:12,305 Olivier Schulbaum: mention that the civic tech is growing under, you know, progressive governments, 181 00:12:12,305 --> 00:12:13,985 Olivier Schulbaum: but now we are really facing 182 00:12:14,145 --> 00:12:17,620 Olivier Schulbaum: a threat on how this shall be involved. 183 00:12:18,020 --> 00:12:23,620 Olivier Schulbaum: So we, you know, and I think sustainability is an issue here. So if government stops 184 00:12:24,900 --> 00:12:31,625 Olivier Schulbaum: financing a tool like the SIEM or public civic type, we'll have a real issue, right? So will the community 185 00:12:32,025 --> 00:12:37,625 Olivier Schulbaum: be self sustainable? Not quite sure, yes. And then we need to enter in another 186 00:12:37,705 --> 00:12:39,785 Olivier Schulbaum: debate which we will not have today, 187 00:12:40,825 --> 00:12:47,525 Olivier Schulbaum: what is the cost of such a technology? By the time the government is feeding it, you know, you can launch, you 188 00:12:47,525 --> 00:12:50,570 know, working with a language that is on the market, 189 00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:51,770 Olivier Schulbaum: very 190 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:52,970 Olivier Schulbaum: expensive, 191 00:12:53,530 --> 00:12:58,410 Olivier Schulbaum: but it's not a problem if you're a public entity, it could be, but if you're a grassroots community, then that comes 192 00:12:58,975 --> 00:13:06,015 Olivier Schulbaum: an issue. So are we talking about civic tech, open code, but is the code approach or the approach to the code 193 00:13:06,655 --> 00:13:12,655 Olivier Schulbaum: democratic enough? So that would mean now it's much cheaper to develop Goodeo because it's mostly PHP 194 00:13:12,655 --> 00:13:14,415 Olivier Schulbaum: and it's much more expensive 195 00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:17,430 Olivier Schulbaum: to develop any, you know, tricks, 196 00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:26,180 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, any new modules on Decidim. So that's basically why we also do lots of very opening projects to be able 197 00:13:26,180 --> 00:13:30,315 to provide some innovation and feeding Decidim back, you know, from 198 00:13:30,875 --> 00:13:35,435 Olivier Schulbaum: a more community approach, but through European funding, because it's not easy to, you 199 00:13:35,755 --> 00:13:41,809 Olivier Schulbaum: know, that's something to consider. So for me, the debate is about like being open is not maybe the first thing we'd 200 00:13:41,809 --> 00:13:42,635 have to define, 201 00:13:43,050 --> 00:13:49,290 Olivier Schulbaum: but it's like being democratic and then the we look at the open technology that is the most democratic to do that. 202 00:13:51,530 --> 00:13:52,570 Alessandro Oppo: And 203 00:13:53,530 --> 00:14:00,293 Alessandro Oppo: and other projects that you are working on right now or ideas that you would like to develop and maybe you don't 204 00:14:00,293 --> 00:14:01,215 have the time. 205 00:14:01,535 --> 00:14:02,335 Alessandro Oppo: So both 206 00:14:04,415 --> 00:14:06,015 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah. Basically, 207 00:14:06,015 --> 00:14:07,215 Olivier Schulbaum: what I'm 208 00:14:07,215 --> 00:14:13,590 Olivier Schulbaum: really interested in these days, we have we run this project called School for Community in Democracy, which is about training 209 00:14:13,830 --> 00:14:16,310 Olivier Schulbaum: the youth facilitators of, 210 00:14:16,630 --> 00:14:19,830 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, citizen assemblies or grassroots assemblies in the future. 211 00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:21,830 Olivier Schulbaum: It's based on 212 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:25,830 Olivier Schulbaum: art based methodology, as I was mentioning in the beginning, like sociodrama, 213 00:14:25,830 --> 00:14:31,625 Olivier Schulbaum: legislative theater, something interesting that could interest you and we need some support for this. We basically, 214 00:14:33,305 --> 00:14:34,825 Olivier Schulbaum: we call it dramatization 215 00:14:34,825 --> 00:14:36,985 Olivier Schulbaum: as democratic inquiry. So 216 00:14:37,465 --> 00:14:40,025 Olivier Schulbaum: we were using a lot of legislative theater and social drama, 217 00:14:41,020 --> 00:14:43,740 Olivier Schulbaum: more than engagement techniques that are analogical, 218 00:14:44,140 --> 00:14:45,580 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, there are methods 219 00:14:45,820 --> 00:14:50,540 Olivier Schulbaum: of inquiry. And what we're trying to do is how would the digitalization of these methods 220 00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:52,940 Olivier Schulbaum: would look like, which is really that physical 221 00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:57,735 Olivier Schulbaum: space based and interaction. So how can we make this, you know, the scene 222 00:14:58,055 --> 00:15:04,535 Olivier Schulbaum: in the theatre or in socio drama, the stage is something really important. So how can the civic tech platform 223 00:15:04,695 --> 00:15:08,490 Olivier Schulbaum: can be a stage? So we're working on on adaptation of the city. Virtually 224 00:15:08,570 --> 00:15:11,610 Olivier Schulbaum: we'll be releasing a distribution of legislative theater. 225 00:15:11,770 --> 00:15:18,743 Olivier Schulbaum: So we like clean the city that is cleaned up and adapted to legislative theater and participatory policy making in general. So 226 00:15:18,743 --> 00:15:24,765 basically my obsession is this is going from what we call like affect to digital participation, I would say. 227 00:15:25,885 --> 00:15:27,245 Olivier Schulbaum: So this basically 228 00:15:28,285 --> 00:15:31,965 Olivier Schulbaum: where we we at. And if you look at civic tech precisely, 229 00:15:32,765 --> 00:15:38,630 Olivier Schulbaum: I'm more now researching and designing what we call political user experience. So, you know, that's 230 00:15:39,270 --> 00:15:40,550 Olivier Schulbaum: so PUX, 231 00:15:40,950 --> 00:15:46,470 Olivier Schulbaum: and this is basically something we've been reading reports on it, and it's basically about imagining platforms like 232 00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:53,207 Olivier Schulbaum: almost like a city, like you would navigate a city or you yeah. Like, citizen would basically meet up in a school 233 00:15:53,207 --> 00:15:57,815 or meet up wherever in a in a factory by the time of the secondary republic, 234 00:15:58,055 --> 00:16:05,382 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, or all that idea that the platform should allow people to navigate a space they feel comfortable with, safe, but 235 00:16:05,382 --> 00:16:11,710 also like feel like, you know, this is exactly the architecture I'm living in. So it's not a flat 236 00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:15,550 Olivier Schulbaum: interface with lots of, you know, box 237 00:16:15,630 --> 00:16:19,070 Olivier Schulbaum: to fill with text because basically this is what policy making 238 00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:20,270 Olivier Schulbaum: is, 239 00:16:20,415 --> 00:16:28,283 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, providing text to be technified by policy makers to adopt them, and this is basically something we're trying to push 240 00:16:28,283 --> 00:16:32,575 back or avoid. So what about like non discursive participation? What about, 241 00:16:33,055 --> 00:16:37,860 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, audio participation? What about, you know, that this is a lot of, 242 00:16:38,820 --> 00:16:39,620 Olivier Schulbaum: whole that's 243 00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:43,860 Olivier Schulbaum: universe to, from our base methodology to bring onto 244 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:51,715 Olivier Schulbaum: platform like Decidim. So we wrote about it, so I'm happy to share with whoever listened to this podcast, 245 00:16:52,355 --> 00:16:54,355 Olivier Schulbaum: the more and more and more detailed 246 00:16:54,755 --> 00:16:56,115 Olivier Schulbaum: definition of what, 247 00:16:56,435 --> 00:16:58,915 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, political user experience shall be. 248 00:17:00,035 --> 00:17:03,235 Alessandro Oppo: Sure. Dani, if you have any link, we can put them in the description. 249 00:17:04,210 --> 00:17:05,010 Alessandro Oppo: And 250 00:17:06,370 --> 00:17:07,490 Alessandro Oppo: I was thinking, 251 00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:10,290 Alessandro Oppo: do you think that is important that, 252 00:17:10,530 --> 00:17:12,130 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, participation 253 00:17:12,450 --> 00:17:16,210 Alessandro Oppo: also maybe is not directly connected to institution 254 00:17:16,210 --> 00:17:19,970 Alessandro Oppo: or association? I'm thinking about 255 00:17:18,615 --> 00:17:19,415 Alessandro Oppo: specifically 256 00:17:19,415 --> 00:17:21,095 Alessandro Oppo: about citizen assembly 257 00:17:21,415 --> 00:17:23,575 Alessandro Oppo: that most of the times they are, 258 00:17:23,975 --> 00:17:25,575 Alessandro Oppo: let's say, they are organized 259 00:17:25,735 --> 00:17:26,535 Alessandro Oppo: by 260 00:17:26,695 --> 00:17:27,735 Alessandro Oppo: an association 261 00:17:28,295 --> 00:17:29,415 Alessandro Oppo: or a foundation. 262 00:17:29,575 --> 00:17:32,550 Alessandro Oppo: But I'm thinking also also about, I don't know, providing, 263 00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:39,590 Alessandro Oppo: I don't know, a tool where, I don't know, a person can just organize a citizen assembly inside their community, 264 00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:41,030 Alessandro Oppo: inside their neighborhood. 265 00:17:41,830 --> 00:17:42,630 Olivier Schulbaum: Yes. 266 00:17:42,845 --> 00:17:43,645 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah. 267 00:17:43,725 --> 00:17:44,525 Olivier Schulbaum: Actually, 268 00:17:45,405 --> 00:17:47,325 Olivier Schulbaum: I was basically mentioning 269 00:17:47,325 --> 00:17:50,845 Olivier Schulbaum: affect, you know. So what is the emotional connection of people 270 00:17:51,165 --> 00:17:53,325 Olivier Schulbaum: or citizens to democracy? 271 00:17:53,325 --> 00:17:54,125 Olivier Schulbaum: Is there any? 272 00:17:54,950 --> 00:18:03,750 Olivier Schulbaum: So it's basically how can we recreate affect with democracy? And then with you talking about citizen assemblies, and I'm a big 273 00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:10,550 defender sometimes in a, you know, in the facilitation world is not very welcome. I'm a big 274 00:18:11,085 --> 00:18:13,405 Olivier Schulbaum: defender of enclave deliberation. 275 00:18:13,405 --> 00:18:18,925 Olivier Schulbaum: So basically starting with the most affected by the topic of an assembly. And of course, this will bring you to 276 00:18:19,405 --> 00:18:20,365 Olivier Schulbaum: identifying 277 00:18:20,365 --> 00:18:28,360 Olivier Schulbaum: which communities are already active dealing with certain topic. Like, this typical topic that are sensible and a politician would 278 00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:29,160 not 279 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,240 Olivier Schulbaum: take as a starter for citizen assemblies, like racism, 280 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:34,920 Olivier Schulbaum: gender violence, 281 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,960 Olivier Schulbaum: or even like the management of trash in a city. It's not, it's almost non 282 00:18:40,485 --> 00:18:43,365 Olivier Schulbaum: institutional citizen assemblies that deal with it. Nevertheless, 283 00:18:43,525 --> 00:18:46,485 Olivier Schulbaum: I think the agenda should be defined by the most affected. 284 00:18:46,885 --> 00:18:47,685 Olivier Schulbaum: So 285 00:18:48,005 --> 00:18:49,845 Olivier Schulbaum: my question is how do we 286 00:18:50,165 --> 00:18:51,765 Olivier Schulbaum: make people, let's say, 287 00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:54,810 Olivier Schulbaum: feel that democracy 288 00:18:55,050 --> 00:19:01,957 Olivier Schulbaum: has something to do with them again, but not with them individually, with them individually and collectively. So what has democracy 289 00:19:01,957 --> 00:19:03,930 done actually to deserve people's trust? 290 00:19:04,490 --> 00:19:05,930 Olivier Schulbaum: That's the good question, not much. 291 00:19:07,015 --> 00:19:10,215 Olivier Schulbaum: Not only their trust, their attention and their emotional investment, 292 00:19:10,375 --> 00:19:13,335 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, because you have seen lots of cities and assemblies happening, 293 00:19:13,575 --> 00:19:20,420 Olivier Schulbaum: lots of recommendation being voted, prioritized, but not adopted or implemented yet. So, you know, that's a big 294 00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:25,300 Olivier Schulbaum: bottleneck there. So democratic participation can not only produce rational legitimacy, 295 00:19:25,540 --> 00:19:26,340 Olivier Schulbaum: I would say, 296 00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:30,500 Olivier Schulbaum: it also needs to reconstruct what we might call like effective legitimacy. 297 00:19:31,635 --> 00:19:32,435 Olivier Schulbaum: So 298 00:19:32,755 --> 00:19:38,691 Olivier Schulbaum: the question is like, if I had a claim, if I start with the most affected, always, depending on the topic, even 299 00:19:38,691 --> 00:19:44,626 climate change, look at who needs really climate refugees in a city like Barcelona, start creating a mandate for an assembly where 300 00:19:44,626 --> 00:19:46,515 you have the rest of the population 301 00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:51,390 Olivier Schulbaum: coming in. But I think it's very important that, you know, avoiding that experts 302 00:19:51,390 --> 00:19:56,990 Olivier Schulbaum: formulate the question. They should only help people affected formulate the questions a little bit better 303 00:19:58,590 --> 00:20:04,725 Olivier Schulbaum: or less activist at home, let's say. So, but we ask, what is clear, the person who asked, what if the people 304 00:20:04,725 --> 00:20:09,745 most affected entered before the question or the mandate has been decided? This is basically what I see, 305 00:20:10,545 --> 00:20:14,145 Olivier Schulbaum: and here you don't need much technology, I haven't talked about technology. 306 00:20:14,625 --> 00:20:21,450 Olivier Schulbaum: I think that's, I think the idea of migrant community discussing borders and the right to the city, people experiencing 307 00:20:21,850 --> 00:20:23,050 Olivier Schulbaum: housing insecurity, 308 00:20:23,050 --> 00:20:24,490 Olivier Schulbaum: discussing housing policy. 309 00:20:24,650 --> 00:20:27,210 Olivier Schulbaum: This should happen first and then create the mandate for 310 00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:32,555 Olivier Schulbaum: a more representative citizen assembly to happen. This is something we're trying to 311 00:20:32,875 --> 00:20:34,555 Olivier Schulbaum: provide. So of course, probably 312 00:20:34,955 --> 00:20:40,075 Olivier Schulbaum: decidim could be a tool for community to self organize and claim for such 313 00:20:41,915 --> 00:20:42,715 Olivier Schulbaum: an incidence, 314 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:49,060 Olivier Schulbaum: but this is also where we need to help and make sure that, you know, institutions are aware that 315 00:20:50,260 --> 00:20:54,820 Olivier Schulbaum: there's this red zone of topics that they will never treat and they shall, 316 00:20:55,565 --> 00:20:57,405 Olivier Schulbaum: otherwise there will not be no 317 00:20:57,485 --> 00:20:58,285 Olivier Schulbaum: legitimation 318 00:20:58,285 --> 00:21:04,045 Olivier Schulbaum: or effective reconnection with democracy, I would say. So really I believe in enclave 319 00:21:04,045 --> 00:21:05,165 Olivier Schulbaum: the deliberation 320 00:21:05,245 --> 00:21:07,245 Olivier Schulbaum: to agendas and agenda setting 321 00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:10,860 Olivier Schulbaum: and co designing the mandate. So this is basically 322 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:18,780 Olivier Schulbaum: what I think the mostly the bottleneck of citizen assemblies are. And you talked also about self organization of citizens. I think 323 00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:22,620 that's a loss of a big opportunity in citizen service. So 324 00:21:23,255 --> 00:21:24,295 Olivier Schulbaum: there 325 00:21:24,935 --> 00:21:26,855 Olivier Schulbaum: has been many in citizen assemblies, 326 00:21:27,415 --> 00:21:30,775 Olivier Schulbaum: if in general 100 citizens are selected, 327 00:21:31,015 --> 00:21:35,095 Olivier Schulbaum: we might have a huge amount of citizens that already have 328 00:21:35,415 --> 00:21:36,215 Olivier Schulbaum: felt, 329 00:21:36,215 --> 00:21:37,575 Olivier Schulbaum: lived, understood 330 00:21:38,050 --> 00:21:45,810 Olivier Schulbaum: what an assembly is and could create, and actually there's we're supporting also a federation of some of the citizen assembly 331 00:21:45,970 --> 00:21:47,330 Olivier Schulbaum: members associations 332 00:21:47,330 --> 00:21:50,930 Olivier Schulbaum: that the one in France, in there's one in Austria, 333 00:21:50,930 --> 00:21:56,425 Olivier Schulbaum: there's one in Spain from the climate assemblies, they come together and I think, you know, and basically 334 00:21:56,425 --> 00:21:58,265 Olivier Schulbaum: reclaim the role in 335 00:21:58,585 --> 00:22:04,105 Olivier Schulbaum: expanding what happens in the cities and assemblies, and going to school to explain what climate change might be, and what, 336 00:22:05,145 --> 00:22:10,500 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, participatory policy making shall be. But in the world of professionals 337 00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:12,660 Olivier Schulbaum: like the one I'm part of, 338 00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:16,980 Olivier Schulbaum: they would be considered a new lobby so you can throw these 339 00:22:17,140 --> 00:22:23,220 Olivier Schulbaum: ex members of citizen assemblies away. It's a bit exaggerated in what I'm saying, but I had these conversations with 340 00:22:23,585 --> 00:22:25,745 Olivier Schulbaum: with professionals of my sector, 341 00:22:25,985 --> 00:22:26,785 Olivier Schulbaum: which I 342 00:22:27,105 --> 00:22:34,438 Olivier Schulbaum: entered in shock, because I think digital citizen unions of ex members of citizen assemblies is the best to contaminate the rest 343 00:22:34,438 --> 00:22:35,238 of population, 344 00:22:35,265 --> 00:22:40,100 Olivier Schulbaum: because at the end of the day, will be only 100 citizens elected, what about the rest? 345 00:22:40,980 --> 00:22:46,755 Olivier Schulbaum: So there's some kind of an emission, and then we can maybe have beyond technology and the technology we use, which are 346 00:22:46,755 --> 00:22:49,380 the physical space that are used in these citizens only, 347 00:22:49,885 --> 00:22:54,845 Olivier Schulbaum: you know? Usually institution, the European Commission that I see in Catalonia, 348 00:22:54,845 --> 00:22:55,885 Olivier Schulbaum: I see in, 349 00:22:56,125 --> 00:22:57,245 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, in 350 00:22:57,965 --> 00:22:59,245 Olivier Schulbaum: the French assemblies, 351 00:22:59,325 --> 00:23:02,445 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, it's always about bringing the citizens to the parliament. 352 00:23:03,180 --> 00:23:04,140 Olivier Schulbaum: Fuck that. 353 00:23:04,780 --> 00:23:08,460 Olivier Schulbaum: Citizens should choose their own space. You talk about climate change, go to the forest. 354 00:23:09,260 --> 00:23:14,700 Olivier Schulbaum: You know, so I believe this is also a bottleneck of citizen assemblies, the way we imagining 355 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:15,500 Olivier Schulbaum: that 356 00:23:16,195 --> 00:23:20,435 Olivier Schulbaum: citizens should play the role of politicians for a certain amount of time and disappear, 357 00:23:21,395 --> 00:23:27,682 Olivier Schulbaum: you know? So we should avoid that, think. They should contaminate all that, especially the youth in schools. So what about like, 358 00:23:27,682 --> 00:23:33,968 you know, if you have had lots of national assemblies in France about climate change and in Spain, what about going in 359 00:23:33,968 --> 00:23:36,540 a in a in a Catalan school and redimension 360 00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:38,620 Olivier Schulbaum: the policy recommendation to, 361 00:23:39,580 --> 00:23:46,372 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, the word that kids know? So what about how this recommendation, which is on the national level affects my river, 362 00:23:46,372 --> 00:23:53,164 the river that goes through the school or the the trash, the management of trash in my city? So there's lots of 363 00:23:53,164 --> 00:23:55,325 opportunity to bring, you know, that culture 364 00:23:56,525 --> 00:24:02,940 Olivier Schulbaum: to to, you know, scaling deep as people like Scaledem would say. It's about scaling deep 365 00:24:03,260 --> 00:24:06,940 Olivier Schulbaum: more than scaling abroad or resale or like 366 00:24:07,580 --> 00:24:08,940 Olivier Schulbaum: laterally, you know. 367 00:24:09,740 --> 00:24:11,660 Alessandro Oppo: Yeah. And indeed there was scaling. 368 00:24:13,875 --> 00:24:17,395 Alessandro Oppo: I I think it's a very important concept because otherwise, 369 00:24:18,675 --> 00:24:22,675 Alessandro Oppo: as you said, if you organize a citizen assembly of 100 people 370 00:24:23,315 --> 00:24:26,915 Alessandro Oppo: and then those people are not able to organize 371 00:24:26,915 --> 00:24:28,835 Alessandro Oppo: other participatory 372 00:24:28,540 --> 00:24:30,300 Alessandro Oppo: process because they could. 373 00:24:30,620 --> 00:24:31,820 Alessandro Oppo: And and then the other 374 00:24:32,780 --> 00:24:33,580 Alessandro Oppo: issue, 375 00:24:33,820 --> 00:24:35,100 Alessandro Oppo: I think, is commitment 376 00:24:36,380 --> 00:24:44,752 Alessandro Oppo: because maybe an institution and I can also understand that could be a little bit scared about signing that they will do 377 00:24:44,752 --> 00:24:46,655 what the citizens will say. 378 00:24:48,575 --> 00:24:52,015 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah, but once they're prioritized and adopted, 379 00:24:52,015 --> 00:24:56,740 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, they should the mandate should be automatic, but that's the stage that usually, 380 00:24:57,300 --> 00:24:59,940 Olivier Schulbaum: I think for the French convention on climate, 381 00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:05,528 Olivier Schulbaum: we have lots of colleagues that have wrote it, written about it, it's quite documented, but it's not the case of all 382 00:25:05,528 --> 00:25:06,500 citizen assemblies in Europe. 383 00:25:07,815 --> 00:25:11,575 Olivier Schulbaum: I think basically there's something that is not clear to 384 00:25:11,735 --> 00:25:13,175 Olivier Schulbaum: most of the society 385 00:25:13,415 --> 00:25:15,255 Olivier Schulbaum: is that these recommendations 386 00:25:15,255 --> 00:25:16,535 Olivier Schulbaum: are technified 387 00:25:17,015 --> 00:25:22,440 Olivier Schulbaum: after the assembly. That means to be to to be, you know, to to land on the 388 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:30,360 Olivier Schulbaum: whoever administration technician in charge of developing it, they will ask for, you know, the technified version of it. And in technification, 389 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:36,911 Olivier Schulbaum: again, there's a lose of the original meaning by the citizens. And it's not very well documented, so we should also take 390 00:25:36,911 --> 00:25:43,462 care that, you know, maybe AI is a nice way of saying, you know, if you have access to this technification moment 391 00:25:43,462 --> 00:25:44,355 and how the 392 00:25:44,755 --> 00:25:46,595 Olivier Schulbaum: proposals have been reformulated, 393 00:25:46,595 --> 00:25:50,700 Olivier Schulbaum: then it's much more evident that you lose a lot of meaning 394 00:25:50,860 --> 00:25:53,100 Olivier Schulbaum: and power in technifications. 395 00:25:55,180 --> 00:25:58,460 Alessandro Oppo: Maybe we need the sort of social political hack 396 00:25:59,740 --> 00:26:00,540 Alessandro Oppo: regarding 397 00:26:00,620 --> 00:26:01,420 Olivier Schulbaum: A lot of them. 398 00:26:02,985 --> 00:26:06,265 Alessandro Oppo: Regarding these problems. Yeah. Because I I see, like, 399 00:26:06,905 --> 00:26:10,265 Alessandro Oppo: this problem about commitment many times came out 400 00:26:10,665 --> 00:26:12,185 Alessandro Oppo: during the interviews, 401 00:26:12,985 --> 00:26:16,185 Alessandro Oppo: and I think it's a sort of unsolved problem. 402 00:26:17,470 --> 00:26:18,270 Alessandro Oppo: And, 403 00:26:18,750 --> 00:26:21,310 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, I wanted to ask you if you 404 00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:23,070 Alessandro Oppo: think there are 405 00:26:23,950 --> 00:26:26,750 Alessandro Oppo: if there are some, let's say, open problems, 406 00:26:27,310 --> 00:26:29,710 Alessandro Oppo: are there some open problems in the 407 00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:31,470 Alessandro Oppo: in this space, in this field? 408 00:26:34,665 --> 00:26:35,865 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah, I think the 409 00:26:37,545 --> 00:26:39,385 Olivier Schulbaum: other mass obsession of 410 00:26:40,105 --> 00:26:42,265 Olivier Schulbaum: basically neutralizing conflict 411 00:26:42,265 --> 00:26:43,545 Olivier Schulbaum: and find consensus. 412 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,840 Olivier Schulbaum: So there's lots of literature 413 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:52,670 Olivier Schulbaum: about how we can avoid that, you know, from Chantal Moux, for example, it's difficult also to bring that, but I think 414 00:26:52,670 --> 00:26:55,320 conflict is basically an activator of our credibility as citizens. 415 00:26:56,915 --> 00:27:00,355 Olivier Schulbaum: That basically allows us to go beyond the expert 416 00:27:01,235 --> 00:27:04,355 Olivier Schulbaum: knowledge that was presented to us as citizens. 417 00:27:05,155 --> 00:27:08,275 Olivier Schulbaum: You know, so I think finding the polarized 418 00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:14,250 Olivier Schulbaum: views is something that should also be sometime discussed. And I saw these these these ideas 419 00:27:14,490 --> 00:27:18,250 Olivier Schulbaum: of how can we rebalance the algorithm of sortition 420 00:27:18,250 --> 00:27:26,305 Olivier Schulbaum: depending on discussion, universities and SMEs. So and there's not many cases about that, about documented about that, but, know, 421 00:27:27,665 --> 00:27:30,545 Olivier Schulbaum: you would imagine that at some point, 422 00:27:30,785 --> 00:27:33,905 Olivier Schulbaum: of having, if we're talking about vulnerable communities 423 00:27:33,905 --> 00:27:41,037 Olivier Schulbaum: that are present around the room, in a room, while the bat, instead of having one of these community members in each 424 00:27:41,037 --> 00:27:42,010 of the table, 425 00:27:42,570 --> 00:27:44,570 Olivier Schulbaum: take one table exclusively 426 00:27:44,730 --> 00:27:52,128 Olivier Schulbaum: with these people together, to leave it an enclave deliberation in the middle of a a of a sortition process, deliberation kind 427 00:27:52,128 --> 00:27:55,155 of assembly, and I think that would also rebalance 428 00:27:55,395 --> 00:27:56,195 Olivier Schulbaum: power 429 00:27:56,675 --> 00:28:01,395 Olivier Schulbaum: and interest. So I think that from there, probably there would be more polarized 430 00:28:01,475 --> 00:28:07,570 Olivier Schulbaum: views that if you consider art based methodology like the theater would be easy to create empathy 431 00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:14,797 Olivier Schulbaum: from the people who are on both sides. So, and probably technology can also help you doing this, that would not less 432 00:28:14,797 --> 00:28:19,295 be a participatory methodology, but more a digital display where, or like a broom. 433 00:28:19,695 --> 00:28:20,495 Olivier Schulbaum: So 434 00:28:20,655 --> 00:28:21,775 Olivier Schulbaum: this we project 435 00:28:22,095 --> 00:28:24,015 Olivier Schulbaum: using the Sydney Barcelona 436 00:28:24,255 --> 00:28:25,135 Olivier Schulbaum: data, 437 00:28:26,255 --> 00:28:27,055 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, on climate 438 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:35,721 Olivier Schulbaum: discussions in various processes where we see, identify polarized issues, and then try to get them back in what we call an 439 00:28:35,721 --> 00:28:36,720 augmented deliberation space, 440 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,600 Olivier Schulbaum: where you basically talk to the most polarized 441 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,800 Olivier Schulbaum: views or representants of these views, 442 00:28:43,375 --> 00:28:49,668 Olivier Schulbaum: and they work together on seeing a series of materials from the other point of view, and come to work again physically, 443 00:28:49,668 --> 00:28:52,815 and then again from this process where we use non discussive 444 00:28:53,055 --> 00:28:54,815 Olivier Schulbaum: approach, people drawing together, 445 00:28:54,975 --> 00:29:00,730 Olivier Schulbaum: people doing sociodrama to understand the position of the most affected, And then back, we take back this 446 00:29:01,690 --> 00:29:03,370 Olivier Schulbaum: discussion onto the digital 447 00:29:04,010 --> 00:29:04,810 Olivier Schulbaum: platform, 448 00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:08,010 Olivier Schulbaum: and we're working on something like that. So extracting 449 00:29:08,010 --> 00:29:10,010 Olivier Schulbaum: polarization from data, 450 00:29:10,570 --> 00:29:15,265 Olivier Schulbaum: it physical and see how much data visualization or experimental data visualization or 451 00:29:15,505 --> 00:29:19,025 Olivier Schulbaum: non discussing methodology can help us building like, you know, 452 00:29:19,585 --> 00:29:21,025 Olivier Schulbaum: more understanding, 453 00:29:21,505 --> 00:29:22,865 Olivier Schulbaum: but not basically 454 00:29:23,505 --> 00:29:24,545 Olivier Schulbaum: neutralize 455 00:29:24,545 --> 00:29:25,345 Olivier Schulbaum: conflict 456 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:33,480 Olivier Schulbaum: by consensus. So it's something we that should be worked out. So yeah. Yeah. This thing is super interesting to me, 457 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:34,600 Alessandro Oppo: like, 458 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,240 Alessandro Oppo: because I thought about it many times. 459 00:29:39,415 --> 00:29:41,335 Alessandro Oppo: As you say, like, if you put 460 00:29:41,975 --> 00:29:46,535 Alessandro Oppo: a member of a minority, let's say, in different tables or just in one table, 461 00:29:46,935 --> 00:29:48,935 Alessandro Oppo: you obtain a different result. 462 00:29:49,415 --> 00:29:54,760 Alessandro Oppo: And, also, I mean, sometimes it is clear if someone is part of a minority, 463 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:01,080 Alessandro Oppo: but the other time I was thinking like, let's say there is a process where, I don't know, 100 people participate 464 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,000 Alessandro Oppo: in a citizen assembly sort of. 465 00:30:03,925 --> 00:30:11,279 Alessandro Oppo: And then after some time, you put together the people that think the same or think in a different way, or maybe 466 00:30:11,279 --> 00:30:13,285 you have different steps, different rounds. 467 00:30:15,445 --> 00:30:22,779 Olivier Schulbaum: Because at the end, you obtain different results, like in one way one way But there's there's only few few experiments that 468 00:30:22,779 --> 00:30:28,780 have been and sometimes even with smaller groups, so not even an Android, more on on mini publics. 469 00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:34,615 Olivier Schulbaum: And and I don't have the the the research in front of me, but, know, you it's pretty surprising that sometimes, 470 00:30:35,735 --> 00:30:38,055 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, these echo chambers, 471 00:30:38,535 --> 00:30:42,855 Olivier Schulbaum: if they're physical, they're really different, if they make them physical 472 00:30:42,855 --> 00:30:44,455 Olivier Schulbaum: in an assembly than online. 473 00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:47,430 Olivier Schulbaum: You know, people looking at emotionally 474 00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:54,422 Olivier Schulbaum: at at people's eyes, you know, it's all different conditions that civic tech would never bring. So I believe that hybridity is 475 00:30:54,422 --> 00:30:59,190 the best way to to work that out. So it's not like I, you know, 476 00:31:00,775 --> 00:31:01,735 Olivier Schulbaum: representativity 477 00:31:01,735 --> 00:31:03,815 Olivier Schulbaum: should be coming back regularly, 478 00:31:04,775 --> 00:31:10,135 Olivier Schulbaum: but we should move around these these more like and if you want to talk about affect, you need to realize 479 00:31:10,695 --> 00:31:14,370 Olivier Schulbaum: what you how what you're discussing is affecting 480 00:31:14,770 --> 00:31:16,850 Olivier Schulbaum: people who are, you know, directly 481 00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:18,050 Olivier Schulbaum: involved. 482 00:31:18,290 --> 00:31:22,130 Olivier Schulbaum: So probably, maybe sometimes I'm not in the room, but, you know, a good sortition 483 00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:27,090 Olivier Schulbaum: algorithm would guarantee that probably there's a, you know, percentage 484 00:31:27,090 --> 00:31:32,755 Olivier Schulbaum: that is reserved to, you know, the most affected in the assembly. That that would be enough to start with. 485 00:31:34,915 --> 00:31:36,435 Alessandro Oppo: The I was thinking, 486 00:31:38,595 --> 00:31:40,995 Alessandro Oppo: are you thinking about any tool? 487 00:31:41,155 --> 00:31:45,580 Alessandro Oppo: Because now there is AI, so it's possible to create new tools. Coding 488 00:31:45,580 --> 00:31:46,380 Alessandro Oppo: is 489 00:31:46,860 --> 00:31:47,660 Alessandro Oppo: cheaper, 490 00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:49,260 Alessandro Oppo: very, very cheap now. 491 00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:51,820 Alessandro Oppo: And so I was thinking, 492 00:31:52,380 --> 00:31:57,980 Alessandro Oppo: yeah, if you are satisfied with the actual tools, or do you think that a new tool should be created? 493 00:31:58,595 --> 00:32:05,122 Olivier Schulbaum: And Yeah. That's, yeah, that's a good question actually. But so that's a nice example. So you've seen the other mass machine. 494 00:32:05,122 --> 00:32:05,922 Again, I'm 495 00:32:06,195 --> 00:32:07,235 Olivier Schulbaum: talking about 496 00:32:07,475 --> 00:32:08,275 Olivier Schulbaum: probably 497 00:32:10,675 --> 00:32:12,435 Olivier Schulbaum: partially a failed experiment 498 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,080 Olivier Schulbaum: just because of consensus and we're trying to reproduce 499 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,600 Olivier Schulbaum: institutional deliberation. 500 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,360 Olivier Schulbaum: So now we're building a small experiment 501 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,040 Olivier Schulbaum: called GRID and 502 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:24,960 Olivier Schulbaum: it's basically we're trying to 503 00:32:26,535 --> 00:32:27,895 Olivier Schulbaum: create an 504 00:32:28,295 --> 00:32:31,415 Olivier Schulbaum: AI agent with different personalities, so a bit schizophrenic, 505 00:32:31,415 --> 00:32:34,855 Olivier Schulbaum: and one of them is the joker who's a facilitator from legislative fear, 506 00:32:35,015 --> 00:32:36,775 Olivier Schulbaum: who was a kind of provocative 507 00:32:36,775 --> 00:32:38,775 Olivier Schulbaum: agent that would also stop you to use 508 00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:45,910 Olivier Schulbaum: him as an agent and saying, you need to reflect on that, stopping the flow of, you know, you're the perfect companion 509 00:32:45,910 --> 00:32:49,830 for the deliberation, that would be the other mass machine, we don't want that. 510 00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:51,830 Olivier Schulbaum: And then we have introduced 511 00:32:51,855 --> 00:32:55,055 Olivier Schulbaum: a philosopher and he's an agent we're feeding with 512 00:32:56,655 --> 00:33:03,132 Olivier Schulbaum: scanned books from a collection of a colleague of mine who's a philosopher from forty years of collection. And this is basically 513 00:33:03,132 --> 00:33:04,015 how we feeding 514 00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:10,420 Olivier Schulbaum: this AI engine. And of course, we have the deliberator, which looks a little bit marked like the upper mass machine, so 515 00:33:10,420 --> 00:33:13,140 we're introducing the upper mass machine to see how it evolves 516 00:33:13,220 --> 00:33:15,700 Olivier Schulbaum: in front of a legislative joker. 517 00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:18,020 Olivier Schulbaum: But the idea of using this 518 00:33:18,455 --> 00:33:22,935 Olivier Schulbaum: AI is to use it in physical space by the time we have people deliberating 519 00:33:22,935 --> 00:33:26,215 Olivier Schulbaum: together. So it's a collective use of it, it's an individual one. 520 00:33:26,535 --> 00:33:29,575 Olivier Schulbaum: And it's basically helps you also to design, 521 00:33:29,895 --> 00:33:37,652 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, mandates that have all these intersectional elements in consideration and all, you know, elements that we have been introducing 522 00:33:37,652 --> 00:33:38,760 like design justice. 523 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,320 Olivier Schulbaum: So, and then all these literature about 524 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:44,280 Olivier Schulbaum: the 525 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,595 Olivier Schulbaum: bottlenecks of AI that is also feeding the agent 526 00:33:47,755 --> 00:33:50,075 Olivier Schulbaum: to be self conscious about these limitations. 527 00:33:50,475 --> 00:33:51,435 Olivier Schulbaum: And then we, as 528 00:33:51,995 --> 00:33:53,195 Olivier Schulbaum: a way of experimenting 529 00:33:53,195 --> 00:34:00,590 Olivier Schulbaum: as part of Inspire Project, so we have the radically independent agent, which is on my, one of our developer 530 00:34:00,590 --> 00:34:05,230 Olivier Schulbaum: TV sets, so it's not even a computer, the AI agents runs on a very small 531 00:34:05,630 --> 00:34:06,510 Olivier Schulbaum: memory, 532 00:34:06,670 --> 00:34:10,030 Olivier Schulbaum: and then we have the one that is more connected with the beast, like 533 00:34:11,390 --> 00:34:12,190 Olivier Schulbaum: OpenAI 534 00:34:12,255 --> 00:34:13,775 Olivier Schulbaum: and see the different results. 535 00:34:14,255 --> 00:34:16,335 Olivier Schulbaum: You know, it's very difficult so to close 536 00:34:17,055 --> 00:34:22,335 Olivier Schulbaum: your knowledge, the knowledge, your knowledge base from OpenAI, you never know if it's completely independent. 537 00:34:23,135 --> 00:34:24,975 Olivier Schulbaum: But it's interesting. So each time we do, 538 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,520 Olivier Schulbaum: we have collective prompts running, we also have systematically 539 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,920 Olivier Schulbaum: an analysis that gets to us to see how much percentage of the, 540 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,320 Olivier Schulbaum: let's say, the corpus we fed the AI agent with 541 00:34:38,675 --> 00:34:40,755 Olivier Schulbaum: was used for the response 542 00:34:40,915 --> 00:34:44,755 Olivier Schulbaum: and how much it had to identify what is type of knowledge 543 00:34:45,315 --> 00:34:48,035 Olivier Schulbaum: that was missing from our own corpus. 544 00:34:48,275 --> 00:34:54,780 Olivier Schulbaum: And sometimes we allow then the agent to go to OpenAI and see this, some responses there. So we have the two 545 00:34:54,780 --> 00:35:01,284 experiments running at the same time, the one that is basically part of the beast and the one that is completely radically 546 00:35:01,284 --> 00:35:02,084 independent, 547 00:35:01,580 --> 00:35:05,740 Olivier Schulbaum: that is probably not sustainable, because it takes more of time. So if you ask like, what is democracy? 548 00:35:06,205 --> 00:35:10,045 Olivier Schulbaum: Then, you know, the TV set agent will last, you know, will 549 00:35:10,365 --> 00:35:14,285 Olivier Schulbaum: take more time, but it would be a 100% independent from any 550 00:35:14,845 --> 00:35:15,645 Olivier Schulbaum: previous, 551 00:35:15,645 --> 00:35:16,445 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, 552 00:35:16,925 --> 00:35:23,806 Olivier Schulbaum: buyers that shall have been introduced by someone else. So this is how we we approach the the AI deliberation. It should 553 00:35:23,806 --> 00:35:27,560 be a connected use, not something that is used only to digest 554 00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:35,085 Olivier Schulbaum: results. I I don't think that I mean, it's probably not the the most exciting use you can do. It's just facilitating, 555 00:35:35,165 --> 00:35:38,045 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, institutional work, but it's, you know, if 556 00:35:38,365 --> 00:35:42,125 Olivier Schulbaum: yeah. I I would rather probably use AI to 557 00:35:42,205 --> 00:35:44,365 Olivier Schulbaum: basically activate people's creativity 558 00:35:44,605 --> 00:35:49,980 Olivier Schulbaum: during a citizen assembly. That could be something. That's the also the idea of our of our grid agent. Yeah. 559 00:35:50,780 --> 00:35:51,580 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah. 560 00:35:51,980 --> 00:35:54,380 Alessandro Oppo: No. I had a question like from 561 00:35:54,380 --> 00:35:59,100 Alessandro Oppo: a practical point of view, because you were saying like people in real life 562 00:35:59,900 --> 00:36:02,540 Alessandro Oppo: in some ways supported by the AI 563 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:03,500 Alessandro Oppo: agents. 564 00:36:03,875 --> 00:36:06,115 Alessandro Oppo: So I can imagine like with 565 00:36:06,435 --> 00:36:07,235 Alessandro Oppo: a phone 566 00:36:07,635 --> 00:36:11,475 Alessandro Oppo: microphone and the so it's a sort of like a participant 567 00:36:11,795 --> 00:36:14,595 Olivier Schulbaum: or Exactly. It's just one more participant. 568 00:36:15,075 --> 00:36:17,635 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah. And sometimes we bring him onto, 569 00:36:17,635 --> 00:36:20,540 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, as a more facilitated group 570 00:36:20,620 --> 00:36:25,500 Olivier Schulbaum: and people are also using it collectively to organize, to design and mandate. 571 00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:28,300 Olivier Schulbaum: So, 572 00:36:28,460 --> 00:36:29,500 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, it's something 573 00:36:30,060 --> 00:36:31,820 Olivier Schulbaum: we're still discussing 574 00:36:31,820 --> 00:36:34,685 Olivier Schulbaum: and with our inspire project colleagues, 575 00:36:35,165 --> 00:36:38,925 Olivier Schulbaum: but shall be presented into the web when we're happy with the results, but it may 576 00:36:39,405 --> 00:36:40,845 Olivier Schulbaum: be only, 577 00:36:41,325 --> 00:36:43,325 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, an an internal 578 00:36:43,885 --> 00:36:49,310 Olivier Schulbaum: so we haven't released the agent yet because it wouldn't make sense if we're 579 00:36:49,310 --> 00:36:55,225 Olivier Schulbaum: not happy with the result. It's more of an experiment of learning how these AI agents work, so what is the best 580 00:36:55,225 --> 00:36:58,990 way of learning is creating your own, which is basically a very simple hacker 581 00:36:59,905 --> 00:37:03,665 Olivier Schulbaum: principle that should be always applied. So this is basically what we do. 582 00:37:04,385 --> 00:37:05,185 Olivier Schulbaum: So 583 00:37:05,345 --> 00:37:07,265 Olivier Schulbaum: it's about also like what's the 584 00:37:08,065 --> 00:37:12,865 Olivier Schulbaum: opportunity for technological severity in AI work, not easy to answer. 585 00:37:13,370 --> 00:37:19,814 Olivier Schulbaum: And then how much of, you know, of data would we need or how much? So right now we're quite happy with 586 00:37:19,814 --> 00:37:26,257 a smaller amount of data and then we have prepared like sets of data that are only activated depending on the topic 587 00:37:26,257 --> 00:37:32,115 of where we use it. So if it's about like, you know, frontiers migration or if it's about trash management, 588 00:37:32,195 --> 00:37:33,395 Olivier Schulbaum: we have presets. 589 00:37:33,795 --> 00:37:36,515 Olivier Schulbaum: So we avoiding working with too many data 590 00:37:36,995 --> 00:37:40,595 Olivier Schulbaum: because that would then be something, an agent that would look like 591 00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:42,390 Olivier Schulbaum: I know everything, 592 00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:44,790 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, so we're reducing sometimes the 593 00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:50,801 Olivier Schulbaum: the power and the role of the of the AI, but those are the participants decide on how to, you know, expand 594 00:37:50,801 --> 00:37:52,310 the use of it. So I 595 00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:57,030 Olivier Schulbaum: guess by by October, we we will be releasing some articles 596 00:37:56,925 --> 00:38:00,685 Olivier Schulbaum: papers and deep dives about the experiment, and then we'll decide if 597 00:38:00,685 --> 00:38:07,256 Olivier Schulbaum: if it's worth releasing it or not. It will be open source, of course. But now it's so connected with corpus that, 598 00:38:07,256 --> 00:38:09,645 you know, it's it's really a crucial element. 599 00:38:10,750 --> 00:38:12,670 Alessandro Oppo: I really like this 600 00:38:13,470 --> 00:38:17,870 Alessandro Oppo: kind of experiment because I think they are really connected with scaling 601 00:38:18,350 --> 00:38:19,470 Alessandro Oppo: because sometimes 602 00:38:20,430 --> 00:38:24,670 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, in this way, you could provide, let's say, I don't know, a tool for citizen assembly 603 00:38:25,035 --> 00:38:26,235 Alessandro Oppo: with moderation 604 00:38:26,955 --> 00:38:28,155 Alessandro Oppo: and facilitation 605 00:38:28,155 --> 00:38:29,515 Alessandro Oppo: inside the 606 00:38:29,915 --> 00:38:32,875 Alessandro Oppo: tool. And then because you were mentioning 607 00:38:33,195 --> 00:38:34,875 Alessandro Oppo: you what is democracy? 608 00:38:34,875 --> 00:38:36,795 Alessandro Oppo: I want to ask you, what is democracy? 609 00:38:36,795 --> 00:38:37,675 Olivier Schulbaum: How about this? 610 00:38:38,875 --> 00:38:45,379 Olivier Schulbaum: No. This is this not a question you want to be asked. Now for me, democracy has to has lot to do 611 00:38:45,379 --> 00:38:46,179 with effect. 612 00:38:47,810 --> 00:38:48,610 Olivier Schulbaum: So 613 00:38:49,330 --> 00:38:52,050 Olivier Schulbaum: probably democracy is about solidarity in a way. 614 00:38:54,135 --> 00:38:54,935 Olivier Schulbaum: So, 615 00:38:55,495 --> 00:39:02,455 Olivier Schulbaum: from a privileged position such as ours, it's basically about like reversing it, flipping it and saying, who's affected by whatever 616 00:39:02,775 --> 00:39:07,970 Olivier Schulbaum: topic or ideas or decision that needs to be made. So it's really a simple exercise, 617 00:39:07,970 --> 00:39:10,130 Olivier Schulbaum: who should be in the room first, 618 00:39:11,090 --> 00:39:13,010 Olivier Schulbaum: who should we listen to first. 619 00:39:13,410 --> 00:39:16,930 Olivier Schulbaum: So I don't think democracy can be described as 620 00:39:17,330 --> 00:39:18,530 Olivier Schulbaum: a tool in itself, 621 00:39:20,755 --> 00:39:22,675 Olivier Schulbaum: but I think it would basically 622 00:39:24,115 --> 00:39:27,795 Olivier Schulbaum: imagine that we would forbid any institution to do any discursive 623 00:39:28,035 --> 00:39:31,075 Olivier Schulbaum: production around democracy and only art based 624 00:39:32,115 --> 00:39:33,795 Olivier Schulbaum: art based expressions. 625 00:39:33,955 --> 00:39:36,115 Olivier Schulbaum: Oh, that could be a good experience in one year. 626 00:39:36,650 --> 00:39:39,290 Olivier Schulbaum: So the policymakers would be freaking out 627 00:39:40,090 --> 00:39:42,410 Olivier Schulbaum: and I guess citizens less. 628 00:39:42,570 --> 00:39:44,730 Olivier Schulbaum: So you could do that in schools, for example, 629 00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:48,250 Olivier Schulbaum: as a small entrepreneur can build their own democracy 630 00:39:48,970 --> 00:39:51,210 Olivier Schulbaum: without the use of any discourse 631 00:39:52,065 --> 00:39:56,225 Olivier Schulbaum: or even you could also say pre established knowledge, that could be something interesting. 632 00:39:57,025 --> 00:39:59,345 Olivier Schulbaum: Designing a corpus of what we need to design 633 00:39:59,665 --> 00:40:04,705 Olivier Schulbaum: a democratic process is something kids at school should be able to design themselves. 634 00:40:05,300 --> 00:40:06,980 Olivier Schulbaum: It's more of the new 635 00:40:07,540 --> 00:40:12,750 Olivier Schulbaum: library for me, you know, where we basically, when we were young and we were going like, you know, illustrations as important 636 00:40:12,750 --> 00:40:13,550 of the text, 637 00:40:13,780 --> 00:40:17,460 Olivier Schulbaum: you can be driven by a poem, which is a political poem more than any 638 00:40:18,295 --> 00:40:25,655 Olivier Schulbaum: political discourse or an essay. So, you know, we should offer the opportunity of people to relate or create, you know, 639 00:40:26,775 --> 00:40:28,215 Olivier Schulbaum: positive affection 640 00:40:28,295 --> 00:40:29,975 Olivier Schulbaum: with democracy, 641 00:40:29,975 --> 00:40:31,655 Olivier Schulbaum: choosing a language they feel more 642 00:40:32,770 --> 00:40:38,050 Olivier Schulbaum: configured. And maybe if the AI can translate this for everybody, so, you know, all these different 643 00:40:38,530 --> 00:40:43,490 Olivier Schulbaum: human agents at the end of the day that have different ways of expression, different work, 644 00:40:43,810 --> 00:40:45,490 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, I'm 645 00:40:45,545 --> 00:40:47,305 Olivier Schulbaum: talking a lot about socioderma 646 00:40:47,305 --> 00:40:49,705 Olivier Schulbaum: and is that a theater, but there's lots of people that wouldn't 647 00:40:49,785 --> 00:40:57,065 Olivier Schulbaum: be comfortable in using their body to express themselves. We understand that too. It's not that creating more justice doesn't 648 00:40:57,385 --> 00:41:00,025 Olivier Schulbaum: really need to avoid creating more 649 00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:04,300 Olivier Schulbaum: all this affection by a certain series of people or also 650 00:41:06,060 --> 00:41:08,780 Olivier Schulbaum: unsafe space, because when you talk about oppressions, 651 00:41:09,020 --> 00:41:15,472 Olivier Schulbaum: sometimes you have the oppressor in the room. So if you apply legislative theater in Citizen Assamilies, for example, that would be 652 00:41:15,472 --> 00:41:18,405 a deed. So how can we create also like enclaved 653 00:41:18,405 --> 00:41:21,605 Olivier Schulbaum: legislative theater with people that fit comfortable with, 654 00:41:22,005 --> 00:41:24,165 Olivier Schulbaum: and then back to eventually, 655 00:41:24,165 --> 00:41:24,965 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, 656 00:41:25,125 --> 00:41:31,229 Olivier Schulbaum: the rest of the groups? Because if you, we do lots of experiments as part of the School of Creative Democracy in 657 00:41:31,229 --> 00:41:35,390 Schools, and we talk about gender violence, we know that it's not, it's a sensible 658 00:41:35,470 --> 00:41:39,230 Olivier Schulbaum: theme. So you basically want to have maybe one to one dialogues, 659 00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:40,190 Olivier Schulbaum: bring, 660 00:41:40,430 --> 00:41:41,230 Olivier Schulbaum: individual have 661 00:41:41,630 --> 00:41:47,494 Olivier Schulbaum: inquiry and then build some, you know, mandate or questioning that you can be different people from the classroom together. So if 662 00:41:47,494 --> 00:41:53,357 you talk about trash management, you don't need that. But if you talk about sensible issues that you're maybe other person in 663 00:41:53,357 --> 00:41:58,155 the room, that's it, it's a real issue. So, yeah. So I don't know how you have been 664 00:41:59,490 --> 00:42:06,850 Olivier Schulbaum: coming to that point talking about simple idea of what democracy is, but, you know, I've been explaining, so not easy. And 665 00:42:10,290 --> 00:42:11,090 Alessandro Oppo: if 666 00:42:11,090 --> 00:42:12,290 Alessandro Oppo: we think about the future, 667 00:42:12,775 --> 00:42:14,935 Alessandro Oppo: what democracy could look like, 668 00:42:15,735 --> 00:42:17,095 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, if there is 669 00:42:18,135 --> 00:42:20,215 Alessandro Oppo: also in relation to participation, 670 00:42:20,215 --> 00:42:21,655 Alessandro Oppo: civic tech, I don't know if you can 671 00:42:22,695 --> 00:42:25,175 Alessandro Oppo: if you think that maybe a more direct democracy, 672 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,240 Alessandro Oppo: different kind of relationship with institutions, 673 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:32,600 Alessandro Oppo: more horizontal. 674 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:33,960 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah. 675 00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:36,680 Olivier Schulbaum: Well, since we're 676 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,800 Olivier Schulbaum: both part of the civic tech movement, the one simple question is what does the civic tech movement 677 00:42:42,195 --> 00:42:43,235 Olivier Schulbaum: really need? 678 00:42:43,555 --> 00:42:44,595 Olivier Schulbaum: Right? So 679 00:42:46,275 --> 00:42:48,755 Olivier Schulbaum: civic tech, I think doesn't need more apps. 680 00:42:49,555 --> 00:42:50,355 Olivier Schulbaum: Right? 681 00:42:50,435 --> 00:42:52,435 Olivier Schulbaum: We already have an enormous 682 00:42:52,435 --> 00:42:53,555 Olivier Schulbaum: graveyard. 683 00:42:54,995 --> 00:42:55,875 Olivier Schulbaum: Most of 684 00:42:57,610 --> 00:42:59,770 Olivier Schulbaum: with beautiful design, civic tech tools, 685 00:43:00,330 --> 00:43:01,290 Olivier Schulbaum: most of them 686 00:43:01,850 --> 00:43:03,770 Olivier Schulbaum: financed by commission 687 00:43:03,770 --> 00:43:08,570 Olivier Schulbaum: through Horizon Projects and they have no community associate to that. So it's kind of a cemetery. 688 00:43:09,225 --> 00:43:10,505 Olivier Schulbaum: So we shall 689 00:43:10,585 --> 00:43:12,505 Olivier Schulbaum: need to avoid that. So we have been, 690 00:43:13,145 --> 00:43:13,945 Olivier Schulbaum: I think 691 00:43:15,065 --> 00:43:16,505 Olivier Schulbaum: I would say maintenance 692 00:43:16,505 --> 00:43:18,185 Olivier Schulbaum: is a political work 693 00:43:18,345 --> 00:43:19,785 Olivier Schulbaum: and it needs community. 694 00:43:20,265 --> 00:43:23,145 Olivier Schulbaum: So maintenance is never a question for, of techies, 695 00:43:23,460 --> 00:43:26,260 Olivier Schulbaum: maintenance is a question of people who are really 696 00:43:26,420 --> 00:43:28,900 Olivier Schulbaum: in need of certain tech, I would say. 697 00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:34,020 Olivier Schulbaum: And then, you know, talking about AI, 698 00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:37,700 Olivier Schulbaum: one of the question we have to ask is who govern civic tech, right? 699 00:43:39,885 --> 00:43:45,085 Olivier Schulbaum: Versus Gaffat, but really who governs civic techs and who found civic tech? The founders, the developers, 700 00:43:45,165 --> 00:43:50,765 Olivier Schulbaum: the institutions or the communities using it? So I think developing new governance model 701 00:43:51,565 --> 00:43:54,630 Olivier Schulbaum: shall be something we shall start with. And I think, you know, 702 00:43:55,590 --> 00:44:01,190 Olivier Schulbaum: there's a few example that already happened, but I would say civic nets would need to 703 00:44:01,830 --> 00:44:05,830 Olivier Schulbaum: recover something that the world takes sometimes make us forget, so people, 704 00:44:06,310 --> 00:44:07,110 Olivier Schulbaum: relationships, 705 00:44:07,975 --> 00:44:10,775 Olivier Schulbaum: conflict in a good sense of it, care, 706 00:44:10,935 --> 00:44:11,735 Olivier Schulbaum: bodies, 707 00:44:13,655 --> 00:44:15,735 Olivier Schulbaum: time, which is a crucial element, 708 00:44:16,375 --> 00:44:17,415 Olivier Schulbaum: and imagination. 709 00:44:17,415 --> 00:44:18,215 Olivier Schulbaum: So 710 00:44:19,655 --> 00:44:23,255 Olivier Schulbaum: let's say, you know, what I'm saying, how can we build non discursive 711 00:44:24,030 --> 00:44:24,990 Olivier Schulbaum: deliberation? 712 00:44:24,990 --> 00:44:27,230 Olivier Schulbaum: How can we build non discursive code? 713 00:44:28,190 --> 00:44:30,750 Olivier Schulbaum: So code that somehow is 714 00:44:30,830 --> 00:44:32,190 Olivier Schulbaum: community sensible. 715 00:44:33,630 --> 00:44:40,780 Olivier Schulbaum: So that's a real issue, that's something we should thought about. But and then as to pin upon what we obsessed with 716 00:44:40,780 --> 00:44:44,355 in the future with my colleague, Sonia Boussou from Inspire Project, 717 00:44:45,075 --> 00:44:46,115 Olivier Schulbaum: we're working on 718 00:44:46,835 --> 00:44:50,035 Olivier Schulbaum: the conception of intercessional time. So who has time for democracy, 719 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:57,040 Olivier Schulbaum: right? So who has actually time to participate? So, because, you know, we know the time is not distributed equally, 720 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:58,880 Olivier Schulbaum: a student, single parent, 721 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,445 Olivier Schulbaum: someone working two jobs or three jobs, a person with disability, 722 00:45:04,525 --> 00:45:09,085 Olivier Schulbaum: so they're not entering a deliberative process with the same temporal resources, right? So, and 723 00:45:10,125 --> 00:45:10,925 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, 724 00:45:11,325 --> 00:45:16,525 Olivier Schulbaum: I think that that's something we should also consider. So what if one of the most powerful forms of democratic exclusion 725 00:45:16,605 --> 00:45:20,410 Olivier Schulbaum: is simply the control of time? So I think, and that's 726 00:45:20,410 --> 00:45:24,970 Olivier Schulbaum: something we would definitely think about that time in democracy is not a natural resource. 727 00:45:25,770 --> 00:45:29,530 Olivier Schulbaum: So it's basically, you know, and also looking at citizens democratic 728 00:45:29,530 --> 00:45:31,850 Olivier Schulbaum: times, especially when we talk about youth participation, 729 00:45:32,405 --> 00:45:36,725 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, their notion of time is really different, but if you talk also about certain communities, 730 00:45:36,805 --> 00:45:40,165 Olivier Schulbaum: the use of time and the perception of time is also something really different, 731 00:45:40,885 --> 00:45:42,645 Olivier Schulbaum: the effect of your participation 732 00:45:42,725 --> 00:45:45,125 Olivier Schulbaum: on time is sometimes perceived differently. 733 00:45:45,820 --> 00:45:47,180 Olivier Schulbaum: So I think that's 734 00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:49,980 Olivier Schulbaum: a crucial element, which we haven't take 735 00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:51,180 Olivier Schulbaum: enough 736 00:45:51,820 --> 00:45:52,860 Olivier Schulbaum: care of 737 00:45:53,580 --> 00:45:56,540 Olivier Schulbaum: when building technology or building or designing 738 00:45:57,340 --> 00:45:58,300 Olivier Schulbaum: deliberation, 739 00:45:58,300 --> 00:45:59,100 Olivier Schulbaum: really. 740 00:46:01,115 --> 00:46:01,915 Alessandro Oppo: When 741 00:46:01,915 --> 00:46:03,675 Alessandro Oppo: you were mentioning theater, 742 00:46:03,755 --> 00:46:06,475 Alessandro Oppo: I was thinking also about Sanya Busse. 743 00:46:07,195 --> 00:46:09,195 Olivier Schulbaum: Of course. Yes. Because no. 744 00:46:09,595 --> 00:46:16,287 Olivier Schulbaum: A that's a few that's a few projects or pilots that have been developed, especially youth led. So there's this one called 745 00:46:16,287 --> 00:46:17,200 You're Fried about 746 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,560 Olivier Schulbaum: employment of the youth, but also the mindset revolution project, 747 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,600 Olivier Schulbaum: which turned out to a more international project called the mental health, 748 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,200 Olivier Schulbaum: youth mental health beyond borders, 749 00:46:27,825 --> 00:46:33,585 Olivier Schulbaum: where we have collaborated and so that's also a small piece of documentary that I 750 00:46:34,065 --> 00:46:37,825 Olivier Schulbaum: can share with you also about it. And I think that these 751 00:46:37,825 --> 00:46:40,305 Olivier Schulbaum: are crucial elements on defining, 752 00:46:40,305 --> 00:46:43,470 Olivier Schulbaum: and especially monacy mindset evolution participants 753 00:46:43,710 --> 00:46:44,990 Olivier Schulbaum: that have grown 754 00:46:45,390 --> 00:46:48,110 Olivier Schulbaum: from participants to legislative theater 755 00:46:48,190 --> 00:46:49,390 Olivier Schulbaum: or digital 756 00:46:50,750 --> 00:46:51,710 Olivier Schulbaum: deliberation 757 00:46:51,710 --> 00:46:52,510 Olivier Schulbaum: designers, 758 00:46:54,175 --> 00:46:56,255 Olivier Schulbaum: when at the start they were basically 759 00:46:56,735 --> 00:47:05,215 Olivier Schulbaum: participants in a in a process around youth mental health, and I'm seeing that they are, you know, professional facilitators 760 00:47:05,215 --> 00:47:11,922 Olivier Schulbaum: that have grown up through this participation process. It also makes me think that, you know, people who have the opportunity to 761 00:47:11,922 --> 00:47:15,580 participate in any of these projects should be cared of, should be, 762 00:47:15,820 --> 00:47:16,620 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, 763 00:47:16,860 --> 00:47:24,525 Olivier Schulbaum: should deep dive with them on their capacities. We should check with them what their democratic and the logic capacities they have 764 00:47:24,525 --> 00:47:26,615 acquired and design from their insights 765 00:47:27,255 --> 00:47:28,615 Olivier Schulbaum: or inquiries, design, 766 00:47:29,335 --> 00:47:31,575 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, a better approach on democratic 767 00:47:31,575 --> 00:47:34,855 Olivier Schulbaum: capabilities, which is also something that our colleague Lucie Paris, Oliver, 768 00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:39,350 Olivier Schulbaum: Escobar from Inspire are working on. So this democratic 769 00:47:39,910 --> 00:47:42,630 Olivier Schulbaum: capabilities framework, how is this connected, 770 00:47:43,510 --> 00:47:44,390 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, to 771 00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:52,285 Olivier Schulbaum: the power that participants acquire that I would say, which are the capabilities that institution can learn from working with 772 00:47:52,685 --> 00:47:55,085 Olivier Schulbaum: the most effective also. I think that 773 00:47:55,485 --> 00:47:57,645 Olivier Schulbaum: has to be seen on both sides. 774 00:47:59,165 --> 00:48:03,150 Alessandro Oppo: So there has to be a sort of feedback loop with citizens 775 00:48:03,790 --> 00:48:05,070 Alessandro Oppo: that are involved. 776 00:48:05,470 --> 00:48:11,008 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah. And if citizens are conscious about like establishing their own path on which are the capabilities as part of this process 777 00:48:11,008 --> 00:48:15,790 that I want to acquire, so do I want to raise a political voice that can be a capacity, 778 00:48:17,825 --> 00:48:23,025 Olivier Schulbaum: or do I want to raise more capacities on my solidarity capabilities with others? 779 00:48:23,185 --> 00:48:27,105 Olivier Schulbaum: You know, you should be able to decide from the start, this is the path, so I'd like to grow, 780 00:48:28,630 --> 00:48:34,790 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, from this perspective. So that would also determine the type of role you can have beyond being a participant 781 00:48:34,870 --> 00:48:37,830 Olivier Schulbaum: in the process. So quickly come to participating, 782 00:48:37,830 --> 00:48:39,510 Olivier Schulbaum: but sometimes that can also help, 783 00:48:40,310 --> 00:48:41,830 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, maybe prioritizing 784 00:48:41,830 --> 00:48:43,110 Olivier Schulbaum: as part of a group, 785 00:48:44,745 --> 00:48:48,105 Olivier Schulbaum: negotiating conflict when it appears in the citizen assembly, you know, but 786 00:48:48,745 --> 00:48:54,658 Olivier Schulbaum: by the way, you can choose the path on which are the democratic companies you want to acquire as participants. If it's 787 00:48:54,658 --> 00:49:00,572 stated in a very simple terms, not technical terms, I think that's very useful to make people understand that we learn through 788 00:49:00,572 --> 00:49:05,410 the process and we will take, you know, we will take in consideration the capacities to be active, 789 00:49:05,570 --> 00:49:10,050 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, in in the parallel process. I think that's that's about like democratic 790 00:49:10,130 --> 00:49:12,210 Olivier Schulbaum: and and legacy 791 00:49:12,210 --> 00:49:15,045 Olivier Schulbaum: in fact. It's really something we trying 792 00:49:15,045 --> 00:49:18,805 Olivier Schulbaum: to integrate as part of our school for PDV democracy, 793 00:49:18,805 --> 00:49:19,605 Olivier Schulbaum: having 794 00:49:20,085 --> 00:49:21,125 Olivier Schulbaum: members or 795 00:49:21,445 --> 00:49:22,965 Olivier Schulbaum: cohorts of participants 796 00:49:23,205 --> 00:49:26,485 Olivier Schulbaum: teaching their peers in the next experiment. 797 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,120 Alessandro Oppo: And we are near the end, 798 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,600 Alessandro Oppo: I wanted to ask you if we miss something 799 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,800 Alessandro Oppo: or otherwise I will ask you the last question. If you think that you want to add something that we didn't touch. 800 00:49:41,525 --> 00:49:48,230 Olivier Schulbaum: Maybe taking it back to when we talked about AI and deliberation, I think what we are living now is AI and 801 00:49:48,230 --> 00:49:54,325 the acceleration of deliberation. So this, everybody's convinced that, wow, AI is great to digest, but I think the digestion 802 00:49:55,230 --> 00:49:57,870 Olivier Schulbaum: is something that needs a specific time 803 00:49:58,350 --> 00:49:59,150 Olivier Schulbaum: and 804 00:49:59,710 --> 00:50:01,950 Olivier Schulbaum: non text digestion. 805 00:50:02,670 --> 00:50:07,457 Olivier Schulbaum: So I think we should also take care of that. This is just something like, you know, what if acceleration itself becomes 806 00:50:07,457 --> 00:50:08,257 a democratic bias? 807 00:50:08,905 --> 00:50:11,705 Olivier Schulbaum: So how can we slow down AI in deliberation? 808 00:50:11,705 --> 00:50:19,016 Olivier Schulbaum: And that's partly what we tried to do with GRIT, especially with our joker agent, who's constantly about like provocating that, you 809 00:50:19,016 --> 00:50:24,665 know, rediscussing the prompt as it is, you know, to avoid psychofancy and all these elements. So 810 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:26,800 Olivier Schulbaum: I just forgot about that. 811 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:29,360 Alessandro Oppo: And 812 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,000 Alessandro Oppo: so the last question will be, 813 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,440 Alessandro Oppo: if you have a final message, 814 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:40,480 Alessandro Oppo: I mean, for all the people that are working on civic tech or participation 815 00:50:40,095 --> 00:50:40,895 Alessandro Oppo: or 816 00:50:41,375 --> 00:50:42,495 Alessandro Oppo: similar field? 817 00:50:42,815 --> 00:50:49,313 Olivier Schulbaum: No. I'd I'd love to invite people to read our journal. We have some a journal called wider journal. No. Don't be 818 00:50:49,313 --> 00:50:54,335 afraid. It's not an academic journal. It's got every, you know, I think this is something we 819 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,000 Olivier Schulbaum: I'd like to recommend and also we'd love to see contributions. 820 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:05,888 Olivier Schulbaum: And of course, will share with you all the, for the civic tech people or the, you know, GoTale repository on GitHub 821 00:51:05,888 --> 00:51:06,800 and all our 822 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,080 Olivier Schulbaum: modules for the civic, there's lots of them 823 00:51:10,645 --> 00:51:12,645 Olivier Schulbaum: that go behind this, you know, 824 00:51:13,125 --> 00:51:16,165 Olivier Schulbaum: text into box kind of navigation. 825 00:51:17,445 --> 00:51:18,805 Alessandro Oppo: And I 826 00:51:19,765 --> 00:51:22,725 Alessandro Oppo: actually have another last question. Okay. The last last. 827 00:51:24,670 --> 00:51:27,310 Alessandro Oppo: Because now you were mentioning the CD models. 828 00:51:27,310 --> 00:51:30,110 Alessandro Oppo: And before you were also saying that there 829 00:51:30,270 --> 00:51:32,510 Alessandro Oppo: are a lot of civic tech applications, 830 00:51:32,990 --> 00:51:34,430 Alessandro Oppo: so a sort of symmetry. 831 00:51:35,305 --> 00:51:40,505 Alessandro Oppo: And so I was thinking if there is someone that has an idea about a civic tech app 832 00:51:41,145 --> 00:51:43,465 Alessandro Oppo: at the same time to not replicate this 833 00:51:43,945 --> 00:51:45,465 Alessandro Oppo: to not create another 834 00:51:45,785 --> 00:51:48,825 Alessandro Oppo: that the civic tech app that goes directly in the cemetery, 835 00:51:50,980 --> 00:51:53,620 Alessandro Oppo: What could be an approach so that 836 00:51:53,940 --> 00:51:55,860 Alessandro Oppo: we do not always recreate, 837 00:51:56,020 --> 00:52:00,580 Alessandro Oppo: but in some way we connect the dots of what is already existing? 838 00:52:01,140 --> 00:52:02,820 Olivier Schulbaum: Probably recycling, 839 00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:04,100 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, 840 00:52:04,420 --> 00:52:06,580 Olivier Schulbaum: so this cemetery 841 00:52:06,495 --> 00:52:08,175 Olivier Schulbaum: is worth visiting sometimes. 842 00:52:08,495 --> 00:52:15,738 Olivier Schulbaum: Maybe not for the tech in itself, but because it's partly funded by European projects, most of it have lots of reports 843 00:52:15,738 --> 00:52:17,055 and, you know, requirements, 844 00:52:17,055 --> 00:52:20,975 Olivier Schulbaum: documents. So probably even more interesting than the code that can be, you know, 845 00:52:21,860 --> 00:52:23,700 Olivier Schulbaum: grow old. But anyway, 846 00:52:23,940 --> 00:52:24,740 Olivier Schulbaum: you, you 847 00:52:24,980 --> 00:52:26,820 Olivier Schulbaum: know, Goetheo is 848 00:52:27,540 --> 00:52:30,100 Olivier Schulbaum: starting in 02/2011 849 00:52:30,100 --> 00:52:31,060 Olivier Schulbaum: and 850 00:52:31,140 --> 00:52:32,260 Olivier Schulbaum: we just, we 851 00:52:32,900 --> 00:52:35,060 Olivier Schulbaum: did the code from scratch 852 00:52:35,300 --> 00:52:36,180 Olivier Schulbaum: last year. 853 00:52:36,865 --> 00:52:38,945 Olivier Schulbaum: So there's, you know, if you design well, 854 00:52:39,185 --> 00:52:43,185 Olivier Schulbaum: you know, no importance that if the code is still something sexy, 855 00:52:43,505 --> 00:52:44,945 Olivier Schulbaum: it's is something stable. 856 00:52:46,065 --> 00:52:50,840 Olivier Schulbaum: I think that that should be something also to consider. And again, back to, you know, the ceiling question, 857 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:52,600 Olivier Schulbaum: why are we using 858 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:58,553 Olivier Schulbaum: a certain language and other, you know, reflection on what is the language you will be using and what's the price of 859 00:52:58,553 --> 00:53:04,347 it in the market to avoid the fact that you will have to pay a developer 10 times what something, someone in 860 00:53:04,347 --> 00:53:05,400 your team that has 861 00:53:06,335 --> 00:53:08,255 Olivier Schulbaum: basically studied humanities 862 00:53:08,975 --> 00:53:10,975 Olivier Schulbaum: paid, I think it's very unfair. 863 00:53:11,295 --> 00:53:17,034 Olivier Schulbaum: So we should avoid that on civic tech. So watch out the socioeconomic condition of the code itself and the dependency we 864 00:53:17,034 --> 00:53:17,834 require 865 00:53:18,415 --> 00:53:20,975 Olivier Schulbaum: by this, you know, from a choice or another. 866 00:53:22,650 --> 00:53:25,610 Olivier Schulbaum: Yeah. That that that's that's that's something that should be considered. 867 00:53:27,210 --> 00:53:29,050 Alessandro Oppo: Thank you a lot, Olivier. 868 00:53:29,610 --> 00:53:31,130 Olivier Schulbaum: You're welcome, Alessandro. 869 00:53:31,850 --> 00:53:33,050 Alessandro Oppo: It was a pleasure. 870 00:53:33,610 --> 00:53:34,410 Olivier Schulbaum: Cheers. 871 00:53:35,210 --> 00:53:36,010 Olivier Schulbaum: Bye.