Welcome to the second episode of the Democracy Novetor Podcast in Italian Today we guest Giovanni Di Sotto, CEO and founder of Multicast So welcome
Before I was you what is multicast, what are the areas
Multicast is a company that was of cryptography in field of telecommunications.
The will be 22 years It was of cryptography in field of telecommunication.
Slowly it moved from the analogical digital to the digital one, then to the web.
Then in 2014, through a partner, entered the world of electronic and security.
electronic voting
First the wired then the so called Smart and Wireless and then they the ones we use are completely in-sass or telematic So, a product in 2014 called Skybot,
and today, in the years of work, 5.5 of tax codes so the rights to various titles and for various...
There on our platforms, because we don't have a single system.
We have a sort of package, very similar to the Office where there are a series of...
products and services that cover an range of democratic ranging from the election of the components of a certain body to the management of the whole from when they are gathered to
when the documents to when these bodies vote and run.
determine, any executive up to the accounting, the transcription, the verbalization and the conservation in place according to the guidelines and laws of the digital
administration
We cover with autonomous and integrated with each just like Office, Homeworld, Excel and others, the entire cycle of a decision-making
The thing is that are two One is governance, means efficiency and transparency.
And the other the more elective which related to elections.
the government The government is the classic one, a communal a CDA, a of delegates, a board directors, they collective bodies that come together around an assembly and that
somehow
to a series of decisions.
This of the Council is at 100 % because from the the Secretaries decide and schedule the meeting to the they the order of day to the time populate the order of the day of the
necessary that goes from the IEPROMEMORIUM, the image of a CDI with IEPROMEMORIUM, rather than the deliberations in the box that are brought to a municipal then the
of the Municipal with the management of all that is process and assembly literacy that goes from the calculation of quorum to the various management of the interventions, the
management, let's say, everything that happens within the Municipal is managed uh
is a body.
the system allows at the end of during, then is possible to in sense of assisting the council through the classic But then the platform collects a whole series of data that
also to give a count of political For example, the councilor Mario Rossi in the X how many times has intervened, for how many councilors
how many municipal have assisted, how many bills have been how many are free, etc.
The citizen can understand if the councilor who voted has done his job and not only demagogically evaluate if the salary from the public administrator
the or has only made the presence.
As for the more direct of election, we have very large among other it was one of the that in Italy
It is the platform that holds the record in Italy for having rights in a single election We managed the referendum on the language.
to study in province of Bolzano and they participated in about 510,000 direct It was a very interesting because among the topics that we had to deal with in that specific area
was to activate a recognition for the minors.
So for those who did not have at the time, because we are talking about 2022, did not have at the time
the possibility to through Speed or other types of and so there was a process, we put together with the company that manages the computer part of the province of Bolzano, a
system of recognition also for the boys up to 16 years old.
And it also brought to the vote about 40 % of the entire
I can you that for a kind of voting like this, it's very high Without spoiling Rome was quite banal.
Italian the first chosen in the schools of the province of Bolzano.
ever
Many other entities this, both before and after we manage voting, especially for private public rights For example, presidential offices.
I for example of all professional of the Councils and Federations of professional
to large assemblies.
Another peculiarity of is that were chosen in substitution of the Rosso in
to the electoral base with a certain frequency, but using a referee and not a player on this was our approach in that specific area.
This only technological but a change of merit for this movement.
I was wondering how much the platform It says there's a suite of different products, I guess some of them arrived later.
The has changed a lot and changes almost every day.
There are three The first reason is specific for safety.
Because, understand that all our work...
is permeated and is based on the highest possible uh
It's to suspend an election, rather than invalidate it, rather than find a mechanism to change it.
because it's too complex and difficult, but certainly to create a certain electoral that fumus, that one no, because for 10 minutes it went off.
The has been off 3 months.
like oil and to us clearly to prevent attacks of any kind, so that the platform changes every three months there are various updates.
Then another area in which it was
It has a lot in usability.
Obviously, the tools 2014, we made the first online in 2016.
There were browsers like Internet Explorer.
There were some browsers, but you could with a PC, at least with a tablet.
Now it's opposite.
You can directly with your phone.
And this has done it.
changed the aspects and I to the third point of identification.
have always been, for our own sake, we have always introduced, even when it was not mandatory, nor, indeed, it bit, so to speak, bad, we have always at least a second factor
of within our platforms.
Consider that the critical element of the
of the platforms linked to voting or general to authentication.
In 2015, Speed was almost an experiment.
If I correctly, was during the experimental phase.
So we had to invent something.
Consider that many of these elections that we I'll an example, the elections that we for a box, for In-Hard-Casse.
say the first thing that comes mind because it is a historical which is the pre-revenue of architects and engineers.
It a box that manages those who read and who will then go to compose the National Delegation
and the CDA manages 11-13 billion balance sheets per is clear that the theme of security, of identification, of certainty, of...
and you is central.
And you can only this if you keep updated and follow the approach to usability that during the journey.
We have replaced with an you the phone and recognize it.
There are series of things we have introduced, mainly to simplify.
Then Alessandro that the vote is like having a cartridge and with that single cartridge you have to hit the cell because...
It's like there's a second, we'll try again, we'll it again.
And the user of that platform has never seen it.
It's the first time you see that thing.
So has to be extremely intuitive, extremely simple, but despite this, has to extremely safe and therefore certifying the vote that has been expressed.
This is the biggest difficulty we have.
Difficulty?
Let's say.
the effort we in during these 11 years of to make sure that people easily have access and can express their vote.
I know are many people who the online What kind of answer would you
So...
Nice question.
So, I an hour,
That's it.
Get it?
I don't have hair but if I I would have had it white.
So I'm quite old enough to be to that electronic is the panacea of all ills.
So every issue with electronic On the hand, we problems of the non-electronic vote, the analog one, for many years.
The is linked to two fundamental The first is that those who usually don't know the subject, who say that is not certain, usually the who doesn't know the subject.
The other aspect is the re-election.
Consider that the electronic then I'll make a small preamble, every year in Italy they have the right to express a vote of about 21 million people.
21 million, why?
Because if you are in a condominium, least once you to vote the vote.
Then you don't do it, but you the right to vote.
There is also a child at school, least once a year you to vote for the class and every three years the one the
Every three years there are RLS, RSU and RSA.
You are part of a professional Every four years is renewal of the board directors and you can continue for cooperatives, for everything you do.
If you the sum of all this, there are around 21 million events, to vote,
could least express a vote Clearly the beauty of all this is that those who buy voting services are those who vote, but they are the voters, it is the passive electorate, so the
fruit of the vote is not the who can choose the tool to do it.
It's like if you are the driver but the car is the driver of The driver decides the car.
The has a different from the who expresses the vote.
From here a series of themes
Let me say that is that of participation.
Participation is a word with which everyone is
100,000 and normally they would vote in 5,000, you understand that the dynamics I'm going tell you a funny because it makes you understand exactly what I'm talking about and what
is the real merit of the vote is safe or not safe.
The sentence is quite sharp.
Is the sure that it will re-elect me?
uh The topic is this.
It COVID.
We were talking about March, April, April uh 2020.
Obviously, you can imagine that we were overwhelmed by Covid because our platforms were taken by surprise.
Obviously, none us expected an explosion like this, where the country etc.
What happens is that for the first time many subjects were approaching this world with the fear that I just told
have 500 subscribers.
They come to vote of in the and the They have pass me by, because they come to here.
They the bell, I greet I vote well, and they in.
In the electronic vote, I'm dead.
So, uh
I don't know if you remember, but were some where you went with the car, they did the same thing.
You got in the car, at the beginning there was someone who checked who you and gave you card, you stopped in the of the hood, you voted in the car, you the card in the urn,
and you left.
Clearly this has had on 500 subscribers 36 voters.
Now it is evident that 36 voters is enough for to your mother, your father and a couple of friends and the voting is closed.
The colleagues who have had
very small with so people who were at home and had nothing to do because of Covid, were elected with percentages that go above 70, 80 percent.
There were some subjects who reached 90 percent.
Now is evident that the problem of representation is total.
Who represents a Christian who has been voted by 4 percent of the right-wing
se stesso, perché no le che rappresento.
The topic of electronic is not about security because is all verifiable, certifiable.
I could open a topic on who tells me that Speed is verified, or rather who tells me that the CIA works and everything regular.
I you this because there is all the availability of these systems, is possible to them point by point, because the subjects that are part of the are many different.
So, be able to take action, you take action, I mean, should order a, let's say, global And so, clearly, real theme is that behind this deration, objectively, everything else And in
this country, believe me, Alessandro...
I a lot of experience to tell you that this much more hidden than the knowledge that an asymmetric at 2048 bits is more or less safe for the certification of the vote.
I doubt that a representative the enters this merit, although he says that electronic is not safe.
I was thinking about this car vote, I know what it could be called like that.
I wanted to ask you, because it makes lot of sense this strategy that whoever has to vote, maybe puts on the on whether they want to vote or not.
You told me that are high levels of participation when the vote is online.
So I wonder if can be a cure for abstentionism.
Because now with technology is possible to this.
In the sense that is possible that 60 million people express themselves regarding a certain issue.
Without technology, it would be impossible.
So, makes possible the transformations of the political in which we live.
I the five stars somehow approved with this thing of democracy, through participation in Russia.
I wonder if, in long run, you it can be...
I mean, people are using technology
both the citizens and the politicians.
I wonder what your are on this, maybe in five or ten years, how do it
are two themes here, Alessandro.
introduction of technological on a natural which is that voting.
and the computer alphabetization of a country that tends to age and not become younger.
So imagine my 83-year-old sitting in front of a screen or having opportunity to vote in electronic.
uh Surely the introduction of electronic is, let's say, credibly important.
possible mixed where a person can decide whether to traditionally or from home.
It certainly auspicous for all those who have to move to vote.
So create, I speak of Italians abroad, until they the outskirts and there is all the controversy that every time there is a vote on the pensions, on the possibility of voting
outside, etc.
The theme is who voting outside of Most of votes are young people, so people who either look away for the first time the vote or who do have specific party so they afraid.
So is evident that managing a consolidated is easier than introducing a variable.
So clearly, even here I see difficult, even though I agree that the times are extremely mature, extremely mature, to be to introduce in a collateral way, let's say...
I think that sick person has Every year, is a man who votes for the sick There are about 10,000 In Rome, 3,000, you an advisor.
I mean, conditions around which, clearly, maybe with 3000, no, 5000, advisor, 3000 you do it at the municipality.
So there are basically conditions with which, today, are means to be able to act.
The delay in this case, there was an experiment two years ago,
with the push of the five stars, the government-count and then put into action by the Draghi on an experiment of the Eastern called I vote if I'm mistaken, was a test, not
advertised, not taken anywhere, in fact it was a flop, we spent a million euros of public money, practically no collected
3,000, 5,000 votes for two colleagues abroad.
It's a very small so so that the electronic is useless and adds nothing.
When, if it had been properly advertised, in my opinion...
We a much smaller we more votes.
If is interest from people to be really voted, they push the system with which vote.
The delay in the accessibility to the vote, that expected from article 48 of the Constitution, that we all have to be vote, and therefore we cannot be linked to fact that
I have or less the possibility to buy a phone of a certain type or to be able to
have an internet or even the cross is born from the fact that even illiterate people should have the possibility to express consensus.
This is overcome because in many countries of world the electronic system can be in the it is electronic but in presence and even there less contestation of more speed of scrutiny,
less questions of every gender.
The technology is made of numbers and certain issues.
Democracy is essentially the management of uncertainty, so in some way both things must find a balance that is always...
the
Yes.
But fact, before...
Let's say that maybe politics is slower to change than technology.
Let's say that technology is evolving so fast that all sectors are struggling to stay updated.
But in the field of politics in particular.
It depends on how things but what I asked is if the current class will be meaning that will be knowledge of the various means, so can be electronic other platforms related to
participation, or if there will be a for new political class, which will have it a natural way, because also precisely for generational
I don't know if it's a
I'll something.
average age of the Italian is 51 years And I'll you something else.
The Italian specifically the Senate of the Italian was one of the first parliaments in world, in 1984, introduce the electronic in the It was by a society that was a project of
the Olivetti.
to underline once again how much our entrepreneurs of the time They introduced it and to this day, the Senate, the Parliament and everything else, use electronic voting Why is
that system more certain than another?
that should elect you.
When there, maybe for one vote we decide to taxes rather than go to war.
There are conditions for which that mechanism is valid and others not.
And there is another fact, repeat, 51 years is a very high for the parliament, for the Senate maybe you get to 60.
And is already a generation that does care about anything.
with the current one.
I am a 50-year-old, despite being a technology company, I have introduced artificial intelligence securing them, we are making a series of very interesting on this, but I have
more cautious
For the topics we and because this is age, I to people who have never used to that half of the parliamentarians write their on LinkedIn, on Twitter, they not the who write, and I
don't know if it's a good or thing.
There are a whole series of topics that, by the way,
conflict with these of digital and the advent of only digital democracy but also of systems in general.
An example for everyone was the speed.
In Italy, have some way separated the digital of a country Why?
Because at the time
the and the ministry of the...
that was in I don't remember if it the internal or even the ministry...
no, maybe the internal, didn't believe us.
They thought that this thing...
yes, it's useless to spend our create something that maybe dies.
Until we reached the point that, rightly,
The speed to the state gave for and started to abuse, to beat the The state obviously said, than paying the workers, at this point I will do it myself and for years we have
partially paid the workers.
We have created an indisputable on which we have been forced to steps back and to pay.
Building a system with
with the CIE, which is lower in numerical at the speed.
That this mechanism, which is abnormal, says it long on the ability to read, in perspective also short, not long.
But why?
Because, I if these are the average of the ages of people who then somehow have to make decisions, is normal that the sensitivity will be that.
of a person who is born and raised in these digital let's say, Easter every day.
set them in order.
Before I new features, with AI, in this case I had in mind those metrics I talking about before, related to how many a politician so I think that AI is also little more
qualitative.
So I don't know if someone proposes ideas, if someone...
I don't know, it's like...
Let's say, are the maybe those you were thinking about, or other features that you would to work
introducing in governance.
We are for semantics for large archives of many verbalizations, transcriptions, in the city council, at the age of years transcription.
You can't know the thinking of Giovanni Di Sotto or Alessandro Oppo.
I a semantic saying, but how did the HOPPO about the bridge on the Stretto?
And there he gives you a synthesis, a research on large amount of data and he gives you a synthetic that would instead have needed a much more complex
with much more time available.
Until we can synthesize the system and the verbal, so we make reasonable and structured of the meeting, the assembly, the council, and then make a pre-verbal where there are already
the synthesis and the rising that will then be put into conservation.
Until we also manage
of some elements, like the elements related to the terms or to the final of these decisions.
So in that case, it tells you if the legal can be or less right, if that...
uh
and it is feasible according to indications.
short, artificial helps to processes faster and more optimized on the one and the other hand helps to make them more conformist.
standardize them and make them conform to the rules, and to the possibilities that one can put in place.
this is an application In addition, we are adding, in addition to this, and here comes back to multicast which is basically linked to the whole issue of privacy and protection.
We in a shared we don't use third party but they physical that the client has at home and inside which are stored not only all the data which all the issues but above all the part
of the trained
because after many years that trained part becomes a heritage of the subject and is not shared with anyone, is not shareable with anyone and especially if you off and disconnect
it from the network and put it in your bag, you take home and so it is shared.
This is a mechanism for a type of clientele
enterprise, but it guarantees the maximum of privacy, the topics that a board directors with are very delicate and if you want to some elements of these you can't not know where
they what is the model that elaborates them and what.
That model will learn from what you put in.
uh
Yes, absolutely.
I understand.
And last question, in one minute, if you a message for the other people who are working on this field, can be participation in electronic abroad in Italy.
I'll you two messages.
The first is to continue to encourage us to about introducing an element of innovation expanding the market, trying to bring the market more ambitiously.
I a person and consider the voting a that has been born recently and is all a bit to be So I believe us, bring innovation, try not to the business, but to introduce an element of
innovation.
This will grow those who enter and the market grow at advantage of all.
not only to put quality and professionalism within this world.
And I tell to start thinking about regulating it.
When we talk about a certified vote, who says it?
mind.
Because to certify something I need a rule that allows me to verify if that thing is certified.
and a mechanism to do it.
There is no law that today normalizes and makes the processes of an electronic of electronic etc.
It derogatory to civil and regulations that, in the best of hypotheses, were 30 years ago.
the best, there are some that even talk about strict rules.
So, obviously, the legislator, in today, for sure, has to place clear which somehow regularize the discourse I was before, that that it makes sure that the clients do not
fight against characters who did things until uh
that do not and that do not make recognizable the result of a motor electronic.
Unfortunately, this is today a bit of a far west that, in my opinion, is the appeal that I been for some years to our political class to put our hands together, maybe even among us,
associating ourselves, making legislative
but to care of this field because Alessandro that now that I know about 100 board directors that go from Leonardo to the ASL of Benevento, the three quarters are online.
So clearly having a norm that says you can do it online if it's like this, if it's like this, if it's like this.
If done in this other way, this other way, in this other way, my opinion, it's the most explainable you can wish
Thank you very Giovanni.
It was very interesting.