1 00:00:00,001 --> 00:00:03,663 Welcome to another episode of the Democracy Innovator Podcast and our guest 2 00:00:03,663 --> 00:00:10,145 of today is Alice Casiraghi. Welcome Alice and as the first question I would like 3 00:00:10,145 --> 00:00:13,287 to ask you ~ something about you, 4 00:00:13,287 --> 00:00:16,914 about your background and that's all. 5 00:00:16,914 --> 00:00:17,914 Thank you for your time. 6 00:00:19,180 --> 00:00:20,921 Thank you, Alessandro. Thank you for inviting me. 7 00:00:20,921 --> 00:00:24,184 so yes, ~ to introduce myself, 8 00:00:24,184 --> 00:00:27,988 I am a designer. I work in sustainability, 9 00:00:27,988 --> 00:00:33,393 ~ work mainly in circular economy and ~ regenerative ~ systems. 10 00:00:33,393 --> 00:00:39,138 And ~ well I started as a originally I started as a UX designer, 11 00:00:39,138 --> 00:00:41,840 as a digital UX designer in China, 12 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,983 where I graduated and I lived my first 13 00:00:46,358 --> 00:00:47,949 Three, four professional years, 14 00:00:47,949 --> 00:00:52,163 moved to yeah, stayed in Shanghai for a few years, 15 00:00:52,163 --> 00:00:55,436 then started working internationally in Asia, 16 00:00:55,436 --> 00:01:01,681 ~ Hong Kong, Singapore. And then I came back to Italy for an opportunity 17 00:01:01,681 --> 00:01:05,404 at the digital transformation team of the Italian government. 18 00:01:05,404 --> 00:01:08,006 ~ worked in Rome for a few months, 19 00:01:08,006 --> 00:01:12,900 then I was about to move back to Asia and ~ the pandemic happened. 20 00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:14,692 So then I was 21 00:01:14,996 --> 00:01:18,317 already here and it was difficult to 22 00:01:18,317 --> 00:01:22,158 ~ organise the visa, 23 00:01:22,158 --> 00:01:24,959 organise my ~ life back in Shanghai, 24 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,740 so I stayed here and still I am in Milan, 25 00:01:27,740 --> 00:01:33,392 ~ based in Milan right now. And this shift from digital UX design 26 00:01:33,392 --> 00:01:36,753 to ~ sustainability, circular economy, 27 00:01:36,753 --> 00:01:38,584 regenerative ecosystems is 28 00:01:39,159 --> 00:01:43,432 Something that happened already before I went to the digital transformation team 29 00:01:43,432 --> 00:01:47,635 in Rome. I started in 2018 trying to apply my knowledge as 30 00:01:47,635 --> 00:01:53,209 a designer to regeneration. Because many times when you read about 31 00:01:53,209 --> 00:01:57,142 the circular economy, it says that you need to design things so that they're 32 00:01:57,142 --> 00:02:01,325 not made to be thrown away. ~ you need to design systems so that they 33 00:02:01,325 --> 00:02:04,147 are regenerative, but they need to be regenerative by design. 34 00:02:04,147 --> 00:02:05,348 Because if you try to 35 00:02:05,980 --> 00:02:09,942 introduce regeneration in a system that is designed in a linear model, 36 00:02:09,942 --> 00:02:13,143 so in a throwaway culture, ~ then it doesn't work. 37 00:02:13,143 --> 00:02:17,535 And so I since then I started working with the food policy of the city 38 00:02:17,535 --> 00:02:19,186 of Milan for four or five years, 39 00:02:19,186 --> 00:02:24,868 ~ with ~ European food systems and ~ also Mediterranean, 40 00:02:24,868 --> 00:02:28,349 Middle East and North African food systems. 41 00:02:28,349 --> 00:02:32,601 ~ how trying to shape policies towards circularity 42 00:02:32,601 --> 00:02:34,332 or interventions towards circularity 43 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,135 And later on I've been also supporting the efforts of coordinating 44 00:02:39,135 --> 00:02:40,877 the Youth and Climate Assembly of Milan, 45 00:02:40,877 --> 00:02:42,629 the first Youth and Climate Assembly of Milan, 46 00:02:42,629 --> 00:02:46,774 which has been a very interesting way to apply design knowledge 47 00:02:46,774 --> 00:02:50,297 and facilitation skills to public services. 48 00:02:50,297 --> 00:02:53,011 So I've been transitioning more and more towards sustainability 49 00:02:53,011 --> 00:02:55,924 but also towards public services and governing structures. 50 00:03:01,485 --> 00:03:06,567 Very interesting, I'm thinking about circular economy and regenerative systems 51 00:03:06,567 --> 00:03:10,949 and you said that a system has to be ~ designed 52 00:03:10,949 --> 00:03:14,710 to be regenerative and not... 53 00:03:14,710 --> 00:03:20,072 So, would you like to tell us something more about 54 00:03:20,073 --> 00:03:23,214 how can a regenerative system be designed? 55 00:03:25,479 --> 00:03:30,613 Mm-hmm. Sure. ~ so in every in every system, 56 00:03:30,613 --> 00:03:33,004 in every ~ political ecosystem, 57 00:03:33,004 --> 00:03:36,026 in every s ~ like state, country, 58 00:03:36,026 --> 00:03:42,681 city, region, you would have regulations that drive your choices towards 59 00:03:43,221 --> 00:03:46,854 one drive your yeah, choices towards one steer your choices towards 60 00:03:46,854 --> 00:03:51,867 one direction or another. ~ and generally laws ~ are made 61 00:03:51,867 --> 00:03:54,169 to preserve what is 62 00:03:54,921 --> 00:03:57,082 What somebody fought for protecting. 63 00:03:57,082 --> 00:04:01,304 If you decide that certain things need to be protected, 64 00:04:01,304 --> 00:04:03,524 if you put enough voice into this, 65 00:04:03,524 --> 00:04:07,846 then this will result into political decision and eventually laws. 66 00:04:07,846 --> 00:04:13,649 so laws tend to be conservative because they are designed after a reality 67 00:04:13,649 --> 00:04:15,970 has been built. ~ and think about, 68 00:04:15,970 --> 00:04:19,531 for example, the dangers of AI or the throwaway culture, 69 00:04:19,531 --> 00:04:24,093 like you need to reintroduce models of regeneration or like prevent packaging. 70 00:04:24,477 --> 00:04:26,318 or control AI in a certain way, 71 00:04:26,318 --> 00:04:30,700 but you need to introduce laws for this because you you these laws are reactionary. 72 00:04:30,700 --> 00:04:33,191 They they happen after innovation happens, 73 00:04:33,191 --> 00:04:36,902 they happen after ~ groups of people, 74 00:04:36,902 --> 00:04:39,393 lobbying groups of people for good or for bad, 75 00:04:39,393 --> 00:04:42,645 ~ decide to advocate for one thing or another. 76 00:04:42,645 --> 00:04:45,606 So in order to introduce circularity and regeneration, 77 00:04:45,606 --> 00:04:49,848 you need to rethink also the systems of regulations, 78 00:04:49,848 --> 00:04:52,819 incentives and and also fines. 79 00:04:53,291 --> 00:04:56,573 to to steer ~ to nudge certain behaviors. 80 00:04:56,573 --> 00:04:57,873 It's called behavioral nudging. 81 00:04:57,873 --> 00:05:01,846 You drive people's ~ behaviors towards one direction or another. 82 00:05:01,846 --> 00:05:05,768 ~ when I was living in Shanghai there was a moment in which 83 00:05:07,209 --> 00:05:11,871 the regulation changed for waste sorting and recycling and then 84 00:05:11,871 --> 00:05:13,892 you know everybody was fine a little bit, 85 00:05:13,892 --> 00:05:16,754 maybe just two, three euros the equivalent of two or three euros, 86 00:05:16,754 --> 00:05:18,705 if they didn't sort their waste. 87 00:05:18,705 --> 00:05:23,027 And this small change made everybody slowly comply because it's not 88 00:05:23,451 --> 00:05:26,722 one big fine that could happen if the police would catch you, 89 00:05:26,722 --> 00:05:29,043 but it's a repetitive fine that you're sure will happen. 90 00:05:29,043 --> 00:05:32,625 So it's a repetition that steers you towards a certain direction. 91 00:05:32,625 --> 00:05:36,556 Or for example, preventing people from binge eating and making money out 92 00:05:36,556 --> 00:05:38,547 of it on YouTube. This is another thing, 93 00:05:38,547 --> 00:05:42,089 you know, it's another regulation that steers people towards a different value, 94 00:05:42,089 --> 00:05:46,650 different set of values. First you want you wanted to boast that you could afford 95 00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:50,072 to binge eat and also make a show out of it and being paid for it. 96 00:05:50,072 --> 00:05:53,033 And then it becomes something to be ashamed of. 97 00:05:53,877 --> 00:05:58,396 So this is how you you y you nudge behaviors, 98 00:05:58,396 --> 00:06:01,663 you steer behaviors towards ~ more or less sustainable choices. 99 00:06:05,954 --> 00:06:11,156 And I'm thinking about policies versus culture. 100 00:06:10,977 --> 00:06:12,648 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 101 00:06:11,156 --> 00:06:17,559 So that culture can be influenced by policies and vice versa. 102 00:06:17,559 --> 00:06:22,901 ~ How this is considered when designing a system. 103 00:06:25,953 --> 00:06:32,518 I think my knowledge of the topic is more anecdotal than ~ coming from like 104 00:06:33,379 --> 00:06:38,133 research studies. but fr from yeah, 105 00:06:38,133 --> 00:06:42,396 well from field research I can tell you if you change the size of a waste 106 00:06:42,396 --> 00:06:45,529 bin or if you introduce two waste bins instead of one. 107 00:06:45,529 --> 00:06:48,651 You need to test these kind of solutions because then if you introduce 108 00:06:48,651 --> 00:06:50,973 two waste beans, people would throw away twice as much. 109 00:06:50,973 --> 00:06:53,065 If you change the size of the waste bin, 110 00:06:53,065 --> 00:06:54,817 then people might throw it away somewhere else. 111 00:06:54,817 --> 00:06:55,817 So 112 00:06:55,561 --> 00:07:00,594 There you always need to ~ when you when introduce a polity a policy you 113 00:07:00,594 --> 00:07:03,426 try to be mindful of the context so of the traditions of people 114 00:07:03,426 --> 00:07:07,318 if something is considered acceptable ~ or not locally, 115 00:07:07,318 --> 00:07:10,830 ~ because of religion, because of mm cultural beliefs, 116 00:07:10,830 --> 00:07:14,482 but also you need to test how people will respond. 117 00:07:14,482 --> 00:07:17,214 ~ so it's yeah, it's ~ as you said, 118 00:07:17,214 --> 00:07:21,756 it's a two way conversation. On one hand you you're trying to be mindful 119 00:07:21,756 --> 00:07:22,777 of the local culture. 120 00:07:23,157 --> 00:07:27,024 And on the other hand, you are trying to see how people respond to the 121 00:07:27,024 --> 00:07:29,868 way you are introducing ~ the policy. 122 00:07:29,868 --> 00:07:32,843 So I guess it's a continuous, you know, 123 00:07:32,843 --> 00:07:34,837 test and ~ test and learn. 124 00:07:36,954 --> 00:07:41,337 And also in relation to the digital transformation. 125 00:07:41,337 --> 00:07:46,960 Because when we talk about ~ transformation and also 126 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,323 it means that we are taking what it was working in a certain way 127 00:07:52,383 --> 00:07:55,664 and we are transforming it in a digital way. 128 00:07:55,664 --> 00:08:00,447 How the design process 129 00:08:00,447 --> 00:08:03,909 ~ can be done, how does it happen? 130 00:08:04,353 --> 00:08:07,220 ~ how it was your experience in relation to this. 131 00:08:07,541 --> 00:08:08,541 Hmm. 132 00:08:09,403 --> 00:08:12,616 Okay. ~ that's that's super interesting. 133 00:08:12,616 --> 00:08:17,590 So on one hand, ~ so when when I joined the digital transformation team, 134 00:08:17,590 --> 00:08:19,762 one thing that I had to realize, 135 00:08:19,762 --> 00:08:22,344 of course it came from my inexperience, 136 00:08:22,344 --> 00:08:27,939 was that I don't only have to talk to the citizens and try to you know when 137 00:08:27,939 --> 00:08:33,323 you develop an app, ~ you d you of course need to test it with the citizens, 138 00:08:33,323 --> 00:08:34,323 understand if it's 139 00:08:35,006 --> 00:08:38,058 the experience is good enough for them if it's immediate, 140 00:08:38,058 --> 00:08:41,471 if it's if it's preferable compared to the offline experience, 141 00:08:41,471 --> 00:08:43,513 because it might be more immediate, 142 00:08:43,513 --> 00:08:47,336 but people might have ~ safety concerns or priv privacy concerns. 143 00:08:47,336 --> 00:08:53,442 ~ but on the other hand you need to test the experience of the service providers, 144 00:08:53,442 --> 00:08:58,556 which is the municipalities, which is ~ when you say municipality or when 145 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:01,329 you say a hospital, when you say it's actually people 146 00:09:01,691 --> 00:09:05,453 the work in very traditional systems administration systems. 147 00:09:05,453 --> 00:09:08,744 So people who have been used to print papers, 148 00:09:08,744 --> 00:09:11,845 make you sign the paper, scan your ID card, 149 00:09:11,845 --> 00:09:15,367 and so they need to be able to do this digitally. 150 00:09:15,367 --> 00:09:19,209 And the decision makers in this administration, 151 00:09:19,209 --> 00:09:22,290 in these hospitals, they also need to be able to allow 152 00:09:22,610 --> 00:09:28,863 for their employees to ~ public servants. 153 00:09:29,954 --> 00:09:34,547 to approve these processes. So th there are many actors that come together in this, 154 00:09:34,547 --> 00:09:38,220 right? You need to have the the legal representative, 155 00:09:38,220 --> 00:09:43,385 that is for example, the mayor or the dean or the director of the hospital, 156 00:09:43,385 --> 00:09:48,199 that needs to sign for you to be able to provide them with a template 157 00:09:48,199 --> 00:09:51,391 for digital services, then they need to have some technical person that adapts 158 00:09:51,391 --> 00:09:55,534 the digital service to them if it's an open source system like the Italian 159 00:09:55,735 --> 00:09:58,527 ~ digital public services system. 160 00:09:59,393 --> 00:10:04,325 ~ and then you need to have ~ the administr the administrative part 161 00:10:04,325 --> 00:10:09,617 or the policy officers they need to operate these accounts and these online service 162 00:10:09,998 --> 00:10:12,639 and they need to do it in a way they they need to relearn completely. 163 00:10:12,639 --> 00:10:17,030 So it's not just about the citizen because the citizen when they start using public 164 00:10:17,030 --> 00:10:19,642 s ~ digital services for everything, 165 00:10:19,642 --> 00:10:24,143 from paying a fine to getting a document to renewing a document, 166 00:10:24,143 --> 00:10:27,755 it gets easy for them because they are used to do it for 167 00:10:27,945 --> 00:10:30,086 multiple different services with the same template. 168 00:10:30,086 --> 00:10:32,308 But the people who work for that hospital, 169 00:10:32,308 --> 00:10:35,430 that municipality, ~ that administration, 170 00:10:35,430 --> 00:10:39,893 they have to start s from scratch just for their own administration 171 00:10:39,913 --> 00:10:42,615 and then keep repeating this process on and on. 172 00:10:42,615 --> 00:10:47,719 So I guess it's ~ it's also a big learning curve for them. 173 00:10:47,719 --> 00:10:51,041 And you need to be mindful that whenever there's a problem, 174 00:10:51,041 --> 00:10:53,753 there's like the legal part needs to be aware, 175 00:10:53,753 --> 00:10:56,595 but they do you don't have to bother them too much because otherwise 176 00:10:57,309 --> 00:11:02,919 i it's ~ too much ~ involvement from the non operative part. 177 00:11:02,919 --> 00:11:05,844 So there are many ~ profiles there in tract, 178 00:11:05,844 --> 00:11:08,969 many stakeholders ~ behind the digitalization of a service. 179 00:11:12,850 --> 00:11:18,435 Yeah, sure, I ~ can imagine this and also 180 00:11:18,575 --> 00:11:24,830 I was thinking something interesting is that ~ many people 181 00:11:24,830 --> 00:11:31,075 or episodes of the podcast were about platforms that most of 182 00:11:31,075 --> 00:11:35,799 the times they were ~ imagined by the person that created 183 00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:40,373 the platform and then proposed to Anna. 184 00:11:41,121 --> 00:11:43,581 let's say, an imaginary audience. 185 00:11:43,581 --> 00:11:46,861 So I have an idea about Civic Tech software, 186 00:11:45,201 --> 00:11:46,201 Mm. 187 00:11:46,861 --> 00:11:48,721 I do it, I create the software, 188 00:11:48,721 --> 00:11:53,581 and then I hope that someone else will use it. 189 00:11:53,001 --> 00:11:54,078 yes, of course. 190 00:11:53,581 --> 00:11:59,641 While in this case, it's working on something that is already there, 191 00:11:59,641 --> 00:12:01,241 you know the users, basically. 192 00:12:03,003 --> 00:12:05,971 Mm. Yeah, it's a service that people need already. 193 00:12:04,370 --> 00:12:05,370 there. 194 00:12:05,971 --> 00:12:07,626 We know that they need it for sure. 195 00:12:07,626 --> 00:12:09,893 So 196 00:12:09,214 --> 00:12:10,214 Yeah, exactly. 197 00:12:11,707 --> 00:12:16,391 And yeah, I was thinking about this difference 198 00:12:16,972 --> 00:12:22,377 and yeah, and what have you learned during this process 199 00:12:22,498 --> 00:12:27,382 and also maybe in relation also to the other things that you mentioned before. 200 00:12:27,382 --> 00:12:28,804 ~ 201 00:12:30,912 --> 00:12:36,738 that could be designing a system 202 00:12:36,898 --> 00:12:40,862 but also a system that is ~ working. 203 00:12:40,862 --> 00:12:46,948 I don't know if the question is clear or if you have something to say about it. 204 00:12:43,083 --> 00:12:44,083 Yeah. 205 00:12:48,517 --> 00:12:55,179 yes. ~ it's kind of clear but ~ so what I've learned in t in working with public 206 00:12:55,179 --> 00:12:59,440 services, first I've learned that designers are needed in public services more than 207 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:04,222 we actually thought 'cause there's a lot of technical profiles in public service. 208 00:13:04,222 --> 00:13:09,073 There's ~ domain experts, ~ there's ~ yeah, 209 00:13:09,073 --> 00:13:10,694 developers if developers. For example, 210 00:13:10,694 --> 00:13:14,795 architects, they work much more with public services than designers do. 211 00:13:15,253 --> 00:13:17,405 Designers they think they have to design, 212 00:13:17,405 --> 00:13:20,237 you know, ~ objects or experiences. 213 00:13:20,237 --> 00:13:24,880 But in the end, we are also very useful into designing public services. 214 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:31,335 And there's also ~ a very sought after profile in the public administration services 215 00:13:31,335 --> 00:13:34,478 that is the facilitator, the one that talks with the citizens, 216 00:13:34,478 --> 00:13:37,830 organizes focus groups, peer learning sessions, 217 00:13:37,830 --> 00:13:41,343 stakeholder alignments, stakeholder is 218 00:13:41,823 --> 00:13:45,264 different public and ~ private companies that work with the municipality 219 00:13:45,264 --> 00:13:51,066 to achieve a specific goal. So all of these is also a skill set that pertains 220 00:13:51,066 --> 00:13:55,117 to designers, especially service designers or user experience designers like 221 00:13:55,117 --> 00:13:59,608 ~ myself. so on one hand I learned that this 222 00:13:59,608 --> 00:14:06,060 is very necessary to relieve the user experience, 223 00:14:06,060 --> 00:14:08,680 the the burden of the user experience from you know, 224 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:10,921 the the user ha having to 225 00:14:11,221 --> 00:14:13,663 fail many times before you achieve a good result. 226 00:14:13,663 --> 00:14:18,608 ~ And you and in any case, whenever you add more research 227 00:14:18,608 --> 00:14:21,250 and human-focused research at the beginning, 228 00:14:21,250 --> 00:14:25,675 ~ it just makes sense. It's an investment that will pay back in the long term. 229 00:14:25,675 --> 00:14:31,560 ~ Especially exactly in public services that are already necessary 230 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:36,185 and they are super scalable. ~ The other thing that I 231 00:14:36,677 --> 00:14:41,818 learned ~ now that I talk about ~ the user and the human-centric focus 232 00:14:42,379 --> 00:14:44,819 is that it's not just about the human, 233 00:14:44,819 --> 00:14:50,011 the the customer, but it's also about the impact that a thing you design, 234 00:14:50,011 --> 00:14:52,791 a service you design will have on the broader infrastructure, 235 00:14:52,791 --> 00:14:54,452 the society and even the planet. 236 00:14:54,452 --> 00:15:00,243 So ~ recently I've been supporting these efforts to facilitate a youth 237 00:15:00,243 --> 00:15:01,524 and climate assembly in Milan. 238 00:15:01,524 --> 00:15:05,985 So developing proposals for the cities for the city on climate. 239 00:15:06,661 --> 00:15:12,454 ~ and even there you need to always think of frameworks to convey this message 240 00:15:12,454 --> 00:15:16,286 to the people involved that you're finding a solution that supports them 241 00:15:16,727 --> 00:15:20,019 for the planet or that supports them in better communication with 242 00:15:20,019 --> 00:15:22,410 the government and the local organizations and the planet. 243 00:15:22,410 --> 00:15:26,833 And you need to create this ~ mind map, 244 00:15:26,833 --> 00:15:33,126 you have to create this framework in which citizens understand ~ that they have 245 00:15:33,126 --> 00:15:34,537 duties, they have 246 00:15:35,369 --> 00:15:37,141 rights, they can ask for something, 247 00:15:37,141 --> 00:15:39,474 they can also they need to also comply with other things, 248 00:15:39,474 --> 00:15:42,286 they can vote for the municipality, 249 00:15:42,286 --> 00:15:43,478 interact with the municipality, 250 00:15:43,478 --> 00:15:45,980 work with the municipality, but they also have to, 251 00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:48,763 you know, ~ provide feedback from the company. 252 00:15:48,763 --> 00:15:51,956 The municipality regulates the company and then these will have an impact 253 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:55,530 on the way resources are used and it will have an impact on the planet. 254 00:15:55,530 --> 00:15:58,633 And so it's always an ecosystem of moving parts. 255 00:15:59,017 --> 00:16:03,939 And I learned to expand my perspective and trying to map this this expanded 256 00:16:03,939 --> 00:16:05,740 perspective, a systemic perspective, 257 00:16:05,740 --> 00:16:10,142 so to make it easy for ~ customers 258 00:16:10,142 --> 00:16:16,545 or ~ people that with which 259 00:16:16,545 --> 00:16:22,347 I facilitate ~ that they're not making individual decisions, 260 00:16:22,347 --> 00:16:23,902 they're making decisions, you know, 261 00:16:23,902 --> 00:16:26,109 in inside of an ecosystem, inside of a system, 262 00:16:26,109 --> 00:16:27,109 inside of 263 00:16:26,953 --> 00:16:30,675 and administration so to put things in relation with one another. 264 00:16:33,072 --> 00:16:37,574 And in relation to the climate assembly, 265 00:16:37,574 --> 00:16:40,836 the Tecanymaging was a sort of citizen assembly, 266 00:16:40,836 --> 00:16:46,769 what do you think could 267 00:16:42,571 --> 00:16:43,571 Mm-hmm. 268 00:16:46,769 --> 00:16:50,240 be improved in those systems? 269 00:16:49,451 --> 00:16:50,451 Mm. 270 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:56,203 And also, ~ because it will be interesting also 271 00:16:56,203 --> 00:16:57,844 if more people do it. 272 00:16:58,884 --> 00:17:04,067 Because I think that participation is on one side helpful 273 00:17:04,146 --> 00:17:09,650 so that ~ we collect what the people would like to see in their cities. 274 00:17:09,650 --> 00:17:16,273 At the same time it is also important that a person express what they feel because 275 00:17:16,273 --> 00:17:20,356 otherwise people... I mean I talk also for myself, 276 00:17:20,356 --> 00:17:26,800 I get frustrated if I don't have ~ a possibility to express myself. 277 00:17:24,299 --> 00:17:25,299 Yeah. 278 00:17:27,528 --> 00:17:33,895 in relation to something and if you have any idea about what 279 00:17:33,895 --> 00:17:37,271 to improve during this kind of process. 280 00:17:36,097 --> 00:17:37,097 Mm. 281 00:17:39,265 --> 00:17:43,566 So there's a lot of things that we don't know very well of the 282 00:17:43,606 --> 00:17:47,977 of how municipalities work or how do they talk to their citizens 'cause sometimes 283 00:17:47,977 --> 00:17:49,428 the communication doesn't get to us. 284 00:17:49,428 --> 00:17:52,239 First of all, in cities especially, 285 00:17:52,239 --> 00:17:54,539 there's generally newsletters that you can follow. 286 00:17:54,539 --> 00:17:59,351 You like first duty is on us to ~ not just follow tech newsletter or 287 00:17:59,351 --> 00:18:01,571 s or circular economy sustainability newsletter, 288 00:18:01,571 --> 00:18:03,272 but also follow the municipality ones. 289 00:18:03,272 --> 00:18:06,533 To know more about our surroundings. 290 00:18:06,533 --> 00:18:07,533 ~ 291 00:18:08,127 --> 00:18:11,739 Then the second thing is in terms of the assemblies, 292 00:18:11,739 --> 00:18:14,860 for example Milan also has a permanent citizens' assembly, 293 00:18:14,860 --> 00:18:17,321 so it's not for use, it's a permanent assembly. 294 00:18:17,321 --> 00:18:23,314 And the way it's structured is I think quite ~ standard in 295 00:18:23,314 --> 00:18:27,146 a way that thousands 296 00:18:27,146 --> 00:18:33,649 of citizens get receive this invitation yearly to be part of this climate assembly. 297 00:18:34,045 --> 00:18:35,766 And then a few of them will respond, 298 00:18:35,766 --> 00:18:41,441 and then ~ a cohort of ~ I think around forty to fifty citizens 299 00:18:41,441 --> 00:18:45,445 is added to an older cohort of forty to fifty citizens so that half 300 00:18:45,445 --> 00:18:49,018 of the assembly remains from the previous year and half of the assembly goes out, 301 00:18:49,018 --> 00:18:52,791 transitions out, and and new people come in so that you ~ on 302 00:18:52,791 --> 00:18:56,664 one hand ensure continuity but also new ideas. 303 00:18:56,664 --> 00:19:01,328 And ~ it depends. Certain things are managed with 304 00:19:03,179 --> 00:19:06,630 groups of interest people that are already active in w within the municipality, 305 00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:10,702 people that have ~ key ~ activities in the city. 306 00:19:10,702 --> 00:19:14,934 ~ or sometimes it's just the whole citizenship being engaged. 307 00:19:14,934 --> 00:19:17,775 It it it ~ depends on what is the topic, 308 00:19:17,775 --> 00:19:19,646 what is the administration. I'm talking broadly, 309 00:19:19,646 --> 00:19:25,198 not just about Milan. one thing that I learned is that you need 310 00:19:25,198 --> 00:19:29,960 to allow for people to express their voice, 311 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,181 but you also need to 312 00:19:31,493 --> 00:19:34,344 mediate this message. You have to contextualize. 313 00:19:34,344 --> 00:19:37,775 You have to show what are they asking, 314 00:19:37,775 --> 00:19:41,186 what what are to whom are they asking, 315 00:19:41,186 --> 00:19:43,437 are they bringing their ~ proposals? 316 00:19:43,437 --> 00:19:47,798 ~ what is the context so that proposals are better drafted. 317 00:19:47,798 --> 00:19:52,129 And also so that you understand that a proposal is feasible because 318 00:19:52,129 --> 00:19:56,991 if you for example want to propose ~ a service 319 00:19:57,909 --> 00:20:01,911 On waste management in a place where waste management is privatized 320 00:20:01,911 --> 00:20:06,834 and it's not public, then it's gonna be hard to ~ to achieve that goal 321 00:20:06,834 --> 00:20:09,285 if the private company is not in the conversation. 322 00:20:09,285 --> 00:20:10,876 For example, you can ask it to the municipality, 323 00:20:10,876 --> 00:20:13,317 but then it will be up to them to talk to the private sector, 324 00:20:13,317 --> 00:20:14,448 and then maybe they don't align. 325 00:20:14,448 --> 00:20:17,020 So you always need to be very aware of the context. 326 00:20:17,020 --> 00:20:21,262 You need to really engage with complexity and systemic thinking. 327 00:20:21,262 --> 00:20:24,824 and then what did I learn? 328 00:20:24,824 --> 00:20:26,835 yeah. 329 00:20:27,005 --> 00:20:29,307 I think these are the main takeaways. 330 00:20:29,307 --> 00:20:35,852 ~ I learned that mm we d I mean the more you get involved, 331 00:20:35,852 --> 00:20:41,626 the more you will learn the intricacies of how does it work and 332 00:20:41,626 --> 00:20:48,401 the more you will be ~ also kind of understanding whenever there's 333 00:20:48,401 --> 00:20:50,613 a a failure, there's a roadblack, 334 00:20:50,613 --> 00:20:53,425 you understand, you know, for what are the reasons. 335 00:20:53,813 --> 00:20:56,785 The other thing actually that I wanted to say and now it comes back to 336 00:20:56,785 --> 00:21:03,309 my mind is I've been visiting some friends in Switzerland and I've seen 337 00:21:03,309 --> 00:21:09,584 how referendum works there and you receive a leaflet ~ with the reasons 338 00:21:09,584 --> 00:21:13,576 to vote yes and the reasons to vote no and they've all been peer reviewed 339 00:21:13,576 --> 00:21:16,799 and you can go through all the motivations and they will try to explain 340 00:21:16,799 --> 00:21:20,661 the topic as clearly as they possibly could, 341 00:21:20,661 --> 00:21:22,933 especially if it's a topic that you don't know much about. 342 00:21:23,487 --> 00:21:25,238 Sometimes it's a bit too daunting, 343 00:21:25,238 --> 00:21:29,820 sometimes the the pr the the topics are very difficult to understand, 344 00:21:29,820 --> 00:21:33,782 but I like that they don't shy away from showing you the complexity 345 00:21:34,142 --> 00:21:37,743 and giving you perspective. So I think something that needs to be improved 346 00:21:37,863 --> 00:21:42,565 is this is to showcase the complexity of things, 347 00:21:42,565 --> 00:21:47,027 and and and getting citizens 348 00:21:47,027 --> 00:21:50,389 ~ to really think more critically. 349 00:21:51,309 --> 00:21:53,280 About what they can decide for. 350 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,671 And sometimes even know that they are ignorant on a topic, 351 00:21:55,671 --> 00:21:59,212 and maybe it's better if it's not for them to choose. 352 00:21:59,212 --> 00:22:02,593 sometimes we tend to oversimplify issues, 353 00:22:02,593 --> 00:22:05,383 and then everybody has an opinion and they can go to the bar and get they 354 00:22:05,383 --> 00:22:07,914 can talk about their opinion. But for example, 355 00:22:07,914 --> 00:22:12,186 in Milan we have these taller weeds growing now in the parks because there 356 00:22:12,186 --> 00:22:16,337 was a decision was made to introduce 357 00:22:17,077 --> 00:22:21,690 biodiverse weeds so that they would invite more biodiversity in insects, 358 00:22:21,690 --> 00:22:22,800 birds, and so on and so forth, 359 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,242 and it's working. And then people are like, 360 00:22:25,242 --> 00:22:28,864 but it looks like ~ the municipality doesn't want to spend the money 361 00:22:28,864 --> 00:22:33,466 to cut the grass. It looks like more careless than it it used to be before. 362 00:22:33,466 --> 00:22:38,810 It looks less polished. And then the citizens were convinced because there 363 00:22:38,810 --> 00:22:43,233 was an analysis from ~ I think Bicoka University showing that 364 00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:46,961 These tall grasses, not only they reintroduced biodiversity, 365 00:22:46,961 --> 00:22:48,811 which citizens didn't really care about, 366 00:22:48,811 --> 00:22:54,154 but also it helped retain more of the pollution from the car's exhaust because it's 367 00:22:54,234 --> 00:22:56,655 at that same height in the street. 368 00:22:56,655 --> 00:22:58,346 So for that people were like, Okay, 369 00:22:58,346 --> 00:22:59,683 maybe we can keep the grasses, 370 00:22:59,683 --> 00:23:02,138 you know, because it's protecting our children. 371 00:23:02,138 --> 00:23:08,581 For me, ~ I I consider them to be beautiful to see more more 372 00:23:08,981 --> 00:23:13,482 Taller grasses or flowers and ~ I live close to a park where there's 373 00:23:13,482 --> 00:23:16,383 an artificial pond and now there's a heron, 374 00:23:16,383 --> 00:23:19,784 a heron bird, one of those big birds that you will see in the rice studies. 375 00:23:19,784 --> 00:23:25,025 It comes to that artificial pond ~ every now and then. 376 00:23:25,025 --> 00:23:28,106 And I keep track of her, him. 377 00:23:28,106 --> 00:23:31,607 and I love to see this bird close to me, 378 00:23:31,607 --> 00:23:35,428 even if it's an anthro very anthropo anthropised environment. 379 00:23:35,428 --> 00:23:38,549 ~ I don't know. I just think that it's 380 00:23:38,901 --> 00:23:45,487 Beautiful. ~ and if I need to thank the tall grasses and the and the flowers, 381 00:23:45,487 --> 00:23:47,248 ~ I'm very happy to have them. 382 00:23:47,248 --> 00:23:52,603 An older generation will be more used to English gardens, 383 00:23:52,603 --> 00:23:55,936 clean cut grass, then for them it will be harder to accept, 384 00:23:55,936 --> 00:23:57,467 especially in aging societies, 385 00:23:57,467 --> 00:23:59,218 bringing change is always hard. 386 00:23:59,218 --> 00:24:02,681 But I guess we yeah, 387 00:24:02,681 --> 00:24:06,815 again, we all need to the municipalities need to be better at showing 388 00:24:07,037 --> 00:24:09,230 the many aspects of a decision, 389 00:24:09,230 --> 00:24:13,034 the complexity, finding the lever for you to accept it. 390 00:24:13,034 --> 00:24:14,506 So if it's not for biodiversity, 391 00:24:14,506 --> 00:24:18,271 maybe it's for your lungs. And the other thing is that people need 392 00:24:18,271 --> 00:24:23,456 to be more patient and ~ understand they don't always have 393 00:24:23,558 --> 00:24:26,461 an opinion about everything, 'cause we cannot be expert of everything. 394 00:24:30,713 --> 00:24:36,284 I was thinking about the output of something that can be a collective discussion 395 00:24:36,284 --> 00:24:41,376 or decision. So it can 396 00:24:41,376 --> 00:24:47,577 be a policy or can be just an advice to the municipality about what citizens want. 397 00:24:47,577 --> 00:24:53,409 And being that we are going towards 398 00:24:53,409 --> 00:24:56,580 a sort of digital society, can imagine. 399 00:24:57,311 --> 00:25:02,532 ~ How do you the co-creation 400 00:25:02,532 --> 00:25:06,653 of policies from citizens? Can this 401 00:25:06,653 --> 00:25:11,014 be ~ scaled in terms of design? 402 00:25:11,014 --> 00:25:14,135 Because now, as you mentioned, 403 00:25:14,135 --> 00:25:18,336 there is a permanent assembly. 404 00:25:19,536 --> 00:25:22,238 But then maybe this can be also scaled up, 405 00:25:22,238 --> 00:25:26,130 so with more people participating because I mean in Milan there 406 00:25:26,130 --> 00:25:31,602 are millions of people. And I wonder also in relation 407 00:25:31,602 --> 00:25:36,425 to other topics ~ because it would be very interesting to see like 408 00:25:36,425 --> 00:25:41,868 the city participating in relation to what has to be decided in the city. 409 00:25:44,443 --> 00:25:50,795 Mm. Huh, so yeah, I this is a complex question 410 00:25:50,795 --> 00:25:52,935 to answer because on one hand, 411 00:25:52,935 --> 00:25:56,857 you know, when you ask everybody to participate directly into 412 00:25:58,697 --> 00:26:04,569 the public ~ decision making, ~ it's for me it's a great idea. 413 00:26:04,569 --> 00:26:07,360 It sounds like a great idea. ~ at the same time, 414 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:11,701 how do you assess their readiness to ~ understand certain topics? 415 00:26:11,701 --> 00:26:12,701 You should 416 00:26:12,935 --> 00:26:19,121 educate, enable people to ~ to participate into the conversation 417 00:26:19,121 --> 00:26:23,626 so you should first inform the citizens then you should allow them to have 418 00:26:23,626 --> 00:26:29,210 ~ a voice into ~ what they into public discussion 419 00:26:29,210 --> 00:26:33,775 ~ and the third thing you should protect them from the threat of 420 00:26:33,775 --> 00:26:36,959 a digital democracy so digital democracy where 421 00:26:37,481 --> 00:26:39,242 I don't know, votes are anonymized, 422 00:26:39,242 --> 00:26:42,445 tokenized. ~ i you need to trust the system a lot. 423 00:26:42,445 --> 00:26:47,129 I think ~ I would welcome a system that 424 00:26:47,129 --> 00:26:51,873 ~ facilitates us ~ from 425 00:26:52,293 --> 00:26:57,457 the facilitates ~ the the development of proposals from the citizens because 426 00:26:57,457 --> 00:26:59,219 in Italy we suffer of this a little bit. 427 00:26:59,219 --> 00:27:01,921 We vote once every few years. 428 00:27:02,131 --> 00:27:03,492 it should be every five years, 429 00:27:03,492 --> 00:27:05,673 I think, but then it happens more often than not, 430 00:27:05,673 --> 00:27:07,985 the governments fall and then we have to vote again. 431 00:27:07,985 --> 00:27:14,800 But our only moment of decision is voting and it happens in a very concerted time 432 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,192 in which there is a lot of propaganda because all the different parties 433 00:27:18,192 --> 00:27:19,753 are doing political campaigning. 434 00:27:19,753 --> 00:27:24,576 So ~ it's not a very calm, 435 00:27:24,576 --> 00:27:30,771 ~ and reflective ~ environment to to make political decisions. 436 00:27:30,771 --> 00:27:31,771 It's always 437 00:27:31,677 --> 00:27:36,600 the rush of of the political campaign before the elections. 438 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,192 So yeah, I would welcome such a system and I guess you I mean 439 00:27:40,192 --> 00:27:43,404 the technology is there and the technology is just an enabler, 440 00:27:43,404 --> 00:27:47,427 right? We we always need to understand how to use technology for 441 00:27:47,427 --> 00:27:52,140 the benefit of societies. ~ but we've seen we're like we are 442 00:27:52,140 --> 00:27:56,933 now seeing how technology is useful to control ~ 443 00:27:57,013 --> 00:27:59,924 people or to decide for, you know, 444 00:27:59,924 --> 00:28:01,945 making work decisions that people don't want to make. 445 00:28:01,945 --> 00:28:05,106 ~ or ~ yeah, 446 00:28:05,106 --> 00:28:10,889 informing strategies that should be ~ informed 447 00:28:10,889 --> 00:28:14,080 by some human being so that somebody can be held accountable. 448 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,561 So right now we're using technologies 449 00:28:16,561 --> 00:28:23,484 to achieve governing to to get to governing decisions that people would rather 450 00:28:23,484 --> 00:28:25,715 not make, not the ones that people would want to make. 451 00:28:26,325 --> 00:28:29,738 I don't know, it's ~ I don't know if you have a different perspective than mine. 452 00:28:29,738 --> 00:28:34,521 I I mean I wish we we would use technology much more for good decision making 453 00:28:34,521 --> 00:28:38,825 instead of you know, using it as a dumpster for the si decisions we don't want 454 00:28:35,604 --> 00:28:36,604 you 455 00:28:38,825 --> 00:28:41,577 to be responsible for so that they nobody can sue us after. 456 00:28:43,748 --> 00:28:48,530 Yeah, I mean I can imagine technology more as a sort 457 00:28:48,530 --> 00:28:54,853 of enabler mediator ~ between different citizens 458 00:28:55,013 --> 00:29:00,676 or also between citizens and the municipality but then something that they should 459 00:29:00,676 --> 00:29:06,078 be avoided is the black box because then you do 460 00:29:06,078 --> 00:29:10,668 not understand what ~ is happening. 461 00:29:11,604 --> 00:29:17,409 And yes, as you said, now we have the technology to also make it happen. 462 00:29:17,409 --> 00:29:20,331 Then there could be a lot of risks related to this. 463 00:29:20,331 --> 00:29:27,197 And those in relation to what you said about informing 464 00:29:27,197 --> 00:29:30,109 the citizens about the topic, also that, 465 00:29:30,109 --> 00:29:32,201 of course, is something very important. 466 00:29:32,201 --> 00:29:35,624 But also I think that many times. 467 00:29:36,465 --> 00:29:41,266 citizens are informed about specific topics just because they live in the place. 468 00:29:41,266 --> 00:29:44,337 So they live in a place, 469 00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:43,710 Yeah. 470 00:29:44,337 --> 00:29:47,576 they see the place every day, so of course maybe they don't have 471 00:29:47,576 --> 00:29:51,279 a theoretical background about how the grass 472 00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:56,890 can be good for pollution and so on, 473 00:29:56,890 --> 00:29:59,791 so they just see maybe the aesthetic part. 474 00:29:59,791 --> 00:30:03,192 ~ But yeah. 475 00:30:02,783 --> 00:30:03,834 Yeah, I I agree. 476 00:30:03,914 --> 00:30:07,467 So if it's an informative process instead of deliberative process, 477 00:30:07,467 --> 00:30:11,060 which means if I am a citizen and I want to inform the municipality there's 478 00:30:11,380 --> 00:30:15,404 a hole in the ground, there's like some minor floating, 479 00:30:15,404 --> 00:30:19,887 there is some ~ mm sick tree. That's that's hundred percent how 480 00:30:19,887 --> 00:30:26,413 I would use technology because ~ it allows well you always have to think of how 481 00:30:27,061 --> 00:30:28,692 People would use it in a bad way. 482 00:30:28,692 --> 00:30:32,745 Because there will be somebody that wants to use it to to make harm. 483 00:30:32,745 --> 00:30:35,827 There is somebody that wants to sabotage your efforts. 484 00:30:35,827 --> 00:30:38,309 There could be somebody. ~ so yeah, 485 00:30:38,309 --> 00:30:43,441 but I I would s I would ~ use it the same way you would inform ~ like 486 00:30:43,441 --> 00:30:46,064 a bike sharing service that the bike is broken. 487 00:30:46,064 --> 00:30:50,367 It's like a feedback system. Technology is very useful for that. 488 00:30:54,985 --> 00:30:59,796 Absolutely. And in relation to 489 00:31:00,258 --> 00:31:03,626 the Yacht Climate Assembly of Milan, 490 00:31:07,186 --> 00:31:08,186 ~ 491 00:31:09,792 --> 00:31:12,835 try to refer on the question otherwise it's similar to the previous one. 492 00:31:12,835 --> 00:31:18,830 Now I'm thinking like about 493 00:31:18,830 --> 00:31:22,883 the outputs of the climate assembly of Milano. 494 00:31:22,883 --> 00:31:28,018 ~ Which kind of difference would 495 00:31:23,893 --> 00:31:24,893 Mm. 496 00:31:28,018 --> 00:31:34,303 you say that like in relation to an output of let's say of a municipality 497 00:31:34,303 --> 00:31:37,476 or a group of experts ~ 498 00:31:38,484 --> 00:31:40,798 Did you see any significant difference? 499 00:31:40,798 --> 00:31:42,308 ~ 500 00:31:44,565 --> 00:31:45,565 Mm. 501 00:31:46,558 --> 00:31:49,542 Like is the co-creation really changing the output? 502 00:31:51,699 --> 00:31:57,133 Okay, ~ two things that I also two takeaways that I also want to take from 503 00:31:57,514 --> 00:32:01,167 my work in universities to teach systemic thinking, 504 00:32:01,167 --> 00:32:03,058 circular economy, regenerative design. 505 00:32:03,058 --> 00:32:08,322 On one hand, you really need the human part ~ when you 506 00:32:08,583 --> 00:32:14,167 mm do decision making. So the co creation with people that have less 507 00:32:14,167 --> 00:32:16,499 of a voice because they're not expert on a certain topic, 508 00:32:16,499 --> 00:32:21,333 but they can give you a another perspective and like talking to more people. 509 00:32:22,013 --> 00:32:25,336 It's always ~ useful, I would say, 510 00:32:25,336 --> 00:32:30,041 talking to groups of people, especially in if you're talking in in person with these 511 00:32:30,041 --> 00:32:34,174 people. I realized even with my students, 512 00:32:34,174 --> 00:32:36,096 you know, when you ask them to solve a problem, 513 00:32:36,096 --> 00:32:39,009 ~ a design problem for nature, 514 00:32:39,009 --> 00:32:43,813 for humans and nature, even when you ask them this and they're working in front 515 00:32:43,813 --> 00:32:45,725 of a computer and they are, you know, 516 00:32:45,725 --> 00:32:47,257 they're like the experts in the field. 517 00:32:47,883 --> 00:32:53,217 They will like now use AI and get to the get to the solution with AI 518 00:32:53,357 --> 00:32:56,039 ~ with more information faster than ever before. 519 00:32:56,039 --> 00:32:58,802 So they finish the the task within two hours, 520 00:32:58,802 --> 00:33:00,703 but they don't have fun with that. 521 00:33:00,703 --> 00:33:02,465 They don't have they don't talk, 522 00:33:02,465 --> 00:33:04,566 they don't share, they don't stimulate each other. 523 00:33:04,566 --> 00:33:08,459 I think this creative social part of generating ideas, 524 00:33:08,459 --> 00:33:10,671 it's very important. It's really useful. 525 00:33:10,671 --> 00:33:12,933 so 526 00:33:13,541 --> 00:33:16,054 Like even with my students, I I challenge them in saying, 527 00:33:16,054 --> 00:33:20,578 okay, yeah, this this is a good answer for a generic intelligence, 528 00:33:20,578 --> 00:33:24,392 artificial intelligence. But if you want to give me your personal answer, 529 00:33:24,392 --> 00:33:26,314 what would you expect? What would you do? 530 00:33:26,314 --> 00:33:31,839 What would you want? so I think experts advise on strategies, 531 00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:37,285 but then ~ instead ~ 532 00:33:38,923 --> 00:33:43,235 Citizens they bring their experience and they add diversity. 533 00:33:43,235 --> 00:33:48,178 And we know that ~ with AI and with ~ 534 00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:51,961 the traditional mm workplace as we know it, 535 00:33:51,961 --> 00:33:56,763 we have a bias for ~ a specific target group. 536 00:33:56,763 --> 00:33:59,405 We are always talking to generally 537 00:34:00,001 --> 00:34:04,004 ~ the older white male in charge in power. 538 00:34:04,004 --> 00:34:08,487 So it's yes, we have more diversity in the workplace right now than we used 539 00:34:08,487 --> 00:34:14,013 to have 50 years ago. But at the same time we don't have as much diversity. 540 00:34:14,013 --> 00:34:18,106 So I guess it helps to ~ I think it's important 541 00:34:18,106 --> 00:34:21,918 to to have conversations with citizens. 542 00:34:21,918 --> 00:34:24,722 And again it's a two way street. 543 00:34:24,722 --> 00:34:28,344 Like you inform the citizens and at the same time you ask for their opinion. 544 00:34:28,713 --> 00:34:31,495 And then if you need to validate certain matters, 545 00:34:31,495 --> 00:34:35,438 you talk to experts. When you organize citizens' assemblies, 546 00:34:35,438 --> 00:34:37,870 you always have a mix of expertises. 547 00:34:37,870 --> 00:34:40,572 You have the citizens, you have the facilitators, 548 00:34:40,572 --> 00:34:42,373 you have the experts, you have the stakeholders. 549 00:34:42,373 --> 00:34:44,925 The experts might be scientists that work with the municipality. 550 00:34:44,925 --> 00:34:48,918 The stakeholders are companies that have an interest in that specific field 551 00:34:48,918 --> 00:34:51,190 or that are working with the municipality on that field, 552 00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:52,592 whether it's private or public. 553 00:34:52,592 --> 00:34:58,217 yeah, you have ~ a a directorate from a municipality that is in charge of 554 00:34:59,974 --> 00:35:03,917 of ~ collecting the opinions and making reports. 555 00:35:03,917 --> 00:35:08,950 So it's I don't think these either or experts or citizens. 556 00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:12,082 It's both. Like you're just enlarging to also the citizens, 557 00:35:12,082 --> 00:35:15,424 not just the experts. ~ when I was living in China, 558 00:35:15,424 --> 00:35:17,916 I used to do research for brands. 559 00:35:17,916 --> 00:35:19,988 My very first job was to do research for brands. 560 00:35:19,988 --> 00:35:23,460 And for me everything was new because I was doing research for brands from 561 00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:25,672 the US or Europe that wanted to come to China. 562 00:35:25,672 --> 00:35:27,583 And when I interviewed experts 563 00:35:27,903 --> 00:35:30,024 what they used to tell me was always, 564 00:35:30,024 --> 00:35:33,696 not always, like 80% of the time is full of prejudice. 565 00:35:33,696 --> 00:35:39,660 Because it was an opinion coming generally from the Western business leader 566 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:45,624 or the person that didn't take enough time to fall in love with the local society 567 00:35:45,624 --> 00:35:52,228 ~ ecosystem to then give you answers that are out of passion for, 568 00:35:52,228 --> 00:35:53,989 you know, mm that context. 569 00:35:54,421 --> 00:36:00,173 So you would have the guy that ~ came from the same industry but working in Europe, 570 00:36:00,173 --> 00:36:03,625 coming to work in China, being the expert of their own craft, 571 00:36:03,625 --> 00:36:08,817 but never taking the time to understand what was the actual experience 572 00:36:08,817 --> 00:36:12,188 of local people. And so this is when design came in handy, 573 00:36:12,188 --> 00:36:14,079 because you could interpret these signals and say, 574 00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:15,680 Hey, by the way, let let me challenge this. 575 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,100 You know, why are you saying that? 576 00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:19,531 Why are you saying that this is gross and this is okay? 577 00:36:19,531 --> 00:36:21,552 Why are you saying that this is preferable and this is not? 578 00:36:21,552 --> 00:36:23,013 Have you talked to the people? 579 00:36:23,013 --> 00:36:24,013 ~ 580 00:36:24,289 --> 00:36:29,333 So yeah, I would say it's just a more complex way of doing things, 581 00:36:29,333 --> 00:36:33,596 ~ to organize assemblies, but also more fulfilling. 582 00:36:33,596 --> 00:36:38,429 And I guess because the reality in which we live today it's not 583 00:36:38,429 --> 00:36:43,042 the best possible world or it's not going towards the best possible world, 584 00:36:43,042 --> 00:36:46,705 we need to enrich our perspective to find alternative solutions. 585 00:36:49,552 --> 00:36:55,154 Yeah, we are living in a democratic system and as you said it's not 586 00:36:55,154 --> 00:37:00,275 ~ the best possible word, not because it is a democratic system of course, 587 00:37:00,275 --> 00:37:05,067 but I wonder ~ if we talk about digitalization, 588 00:37:05,067 --> 00:37:09,838 we are also talking about ~ designing a new system, 589 00:37:09,838 --> 00:37:15,200 so maybe it could be a new kind of democracy and also I wonder... 590 00:37:15,876 --> 00:37:20,867 like for you, what it could be done to make this the best possible world. 591 00:37:23,061 --> 00:37:29,593 Mm. Okay, listen, if we like the point is not democracy or not for me, 592 00:37:29,593 --> 00:37:33,924 the point is ~ redistributing 593 00:37:34,344 --> 00:37:39,726 and it's ~ redistributing among peoples and with nature. 594 00:37:39,726 --> 00:37:44,687 Like from my perspective of a person working in sustainability or regeneration, 595 00:37:44,687 --> 00:37:49,898 I can tell you that one of the biggest issues is how much resources we're taking 596 00:37:49,898 --> 00:37:52,229 from the rest of the planet and 597 00:37:52,501 --> 00:37:56,324 thinking that they are there for us to make use of them. 598 00:37:56,324 --> 00:37:58,215 Also for AI, also for digital. 599 00:37:58,215 --> 00:38:01,938 Like we're using anything from the water in the rivers to cool down 600 00:38:01,938 --> 00:38:05,811 the servers to the space to fuel to power these giant machines, 601 00:38:05,811 --> 00:38:10,614 sometimes for very ~ very useless tasks. 602 00:38:10,614 --> 00:38:14,937 So very yeah ~ superficial tasks. 603 00:38:14,937 --> 00:38:20,341 And so the best ~ 604 00:38:21,171 --> 00:38:25,062 In in my perspective the the best possible world would be a world where 605 00:38:25,101 --> 00:38:30,263 mm we even get more stakeholders in decision making that is goes beyond human 606 00:38:30,263 --> 00:38:35,505 beings. And if you could talk to the tree or to the fox or to the bumblebee 607 00:38:35,505 --> 00:38:38,306 or to a rock and say, Hey, look, 608 00:38:38,306 --> 00:38:42,417 like help us make a decision, I guess they will give us very different answers from 609 00:38:42,417 --> 00:38:44,757 the ones we give. So enlarging, 610 00:38:44,757 --> 00:38:46,578 you know, from the single decision maker, 611 00:38:46,578 --> 00:38:48,618 the leader to the experts, to the citizens, 612 00:38:48,618 --> 00:38:50,419 to anything beyond human. 613 00:38:52,138 --> 00:38:55,299 and achieving, you know, those sustainability goals that 614 00:38:55,299 --> 00:38:58,992 we have collectively decided that we should strive for for from the UN, 615 00:38:58,992 --> 00:39:01,403 the the Agenda twenty thirty, the Paris Agreement. 616 00:39:01,403 --> 00:39:05,725 These are goals that experts, domain experts, 617 00:39:05,725 --> 00:39:11,209 pro bono most of the time, have been working towards. 618 00:39:11,209 --> 00:39:16,332 And I think we should all be more educated to them and everything that 619 00:39:16,332 --> 00:39:18,493 we do in public services, in 620 00:39:19,709 --> 00:39:24,403 In digital ~ startups, in every business ecosystem, 621 00:39:24,403 --> 00:39:28,627 we should be mindful that we're working inside of a larger system that 622 00:39:28,627 --> 00:39:32,981 we need to protect. So introduce the non human stakeholders into 623 00:39:32,981 --> 00:39:35,884 the conversation ~ to design better solutions. 624 00:39:35,884 --> 00:39:41,369 Because if we really need to comply with the Paris Agreement to survive as species, 625 00:39:41,369 --> 00:39:44,192 we might as well introduce the limits of the Paris Agreement 626 00:39:44,192 --> 00:39:45,503 in business decisions so that 627 00:39:46,431 --> 00:39:49,747 We all work towards that, for the for the collective. 628 00:39:49,747 --> 00:39:52,613 We're not really going in the direction at the moment. 629 00:39:56,793 --> 00:40:02,867 Yeah, I really like the idea about having animals as new political actors that 630 00:40:02,867 --> 00:40:08,560 can maybe decide also about how much the grass has to be, 631 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:13,192 how much nature... 632 00:40:11,819 --> 00:40:13,661 But they need to be they need to be 633 00:40:13,661 --> 00:40:19,287 non interest ~ non interested ~ animals because if it's your pets like cats 634 00:40:19,287 --> 00:40:22,820 and dogs, then that doesn't make sense 'cause they depend on the food you give them. 635 00:40:22,820 --> 00:40:25,933 So it needs to be in the from the opposition, 636 00:40:24,394 --> 00:40:25,394 Yeah. 637 00:40:25,933 --> 00:40:29,587 from opposing perspective, you get more richness because you find contrast 638 00:40:29,587 --> 00:40:31,539 and in contrast you find new solutions. 639 00:40:34,768 --> 00:40:39,101 I wonder how terms of design this can be done. 640 00:40:39,101 --> 00:40:44,714 Because we can imagine probably the needs of an animal that could be a bird, 641 00:40:44,714 --> 00:40:50,498 could be a cow. ~ It's actually an interesting point. 642 00:40:50,498 --> 00:40:56,262 Maybe new democracy, new political system will also involve animals as actors 643 00:40:56,262 --> 00:40:59,704 and it will be very interesting. 644 00:40:58,185 --> 00:40:59,185 Exactly. 645 00:41:02,065 --> 00:41:07,927 Maybe we need to you know, there are these ~ futuristic dystopian ~ films 646 00:41:07,927 --> 00:41:12,838 or T V series that ~ where we decipher the language of animals and then we're able 647 00:41:12,838 --> 00:41:16,900 to talk to them and some use it in better ways, 648 00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:22,951 some use it and and like exploit it for again their own ~ individual wealth. 649 00:41:22,951 --> 00:41:28,383 But it this is something that we could do in learning to interpret those voices. 650 00:41:28,977 --> 00:41:32,339 And ~ involve them into a more collective decision making. 651 00:41:35,392 --> 00:41:39,806 I actually saw on some social media like ~ dogs, 652 00:41:39,806 --> 00:41:44,249 mean that they were pushing some buttons like to say go out, 653 00:41:43,745 --> 00:41:44,745 Mm-hmm. 654 00:41:44,249 --> 00:41:50,274 I need to do this or that and yeah, 655 00:41:50,274 --> 00:41:53,537 and I was like, okay, they can speak so they can also vote. 656 00:41:53,537 --> 00:42:00,503 Of course I'm exaggerating but they have some sort 657 00:42:00,503 --> 00:42:03,125 of ~ way of 658 00:42:03,745 --> 00:42:09,609 I mean, I've had a dog and he was very, 659 00:42:09,609 --> 00:42:14,473 able to express himself of communicating. 660 00:42:12,937 --> 00:42:14,978 Yes. I never know 661 00:42:15,758 --> 00:42:17,978 I never know how do those videos work. 662 00:42:17,978 --> 00:42:22,079 Like it's it's very weird for me to under like that an animal is giving 663 00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:26,061 you messages like that. 'Cause it i it means they are 664 00:42:26,081 --> 00:42:30,442 not only passively interpreting human voice for receiving orders, 665 00:42:30,442 --> 00:42:32,382 but they're also giving something back. 666 00:42:32,382 --> 00:42:35,783 So I don't know. There there are scientists that study these kind of things. 667 00:42:35,783 --> 00:42:39,984 I I don't have enough experience to talk about it. 668 00:42:39,984 --> 00:42:41,645 ~ but yeah, 669 00:42:42,365 --> 00:42:49,098 There's also more we have like this tunnel perspective 670 00:42:49,098 --> 00:42:53,380 in the West that is human to human and like kind of ignoring everything else, 671 00:42:53,380 --> 00:42:56,611 ignoring again the complexity of the interdependence. 672 00:42:56,611 --> 00:43:01,733 And I don't want to sound exotic but there are different traditions, 673 00:43:01,733 --> 00:43:05,485 different cultures, indigenous cultures that instead have a way to 674 00:43:05,485 --> 00:43:09,737 ~ relate to other species or 675 00:43:10,107 --> 00:43:14,792 you know, consider the environment as ~ a part of a one living thing together with 676 00:43:14,792 --> 00:43:19,707 humans. So maybe we need to also listen to diversity among humans to learn ways 677 00:43:19,707 --> 00:43:21,459 of working with other nature. 678 00:43:23,849 --> 00:43:27,992 Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of relations, 679 00:43:27,992 --> 00:43:30,534 human to human, I'm thinking that, 680 00:43:30,534 --> 00:43:33,687 I mean, going back to the, let's say, 681 00:43:33,687 --> 00:43:36,559 to technology in some way, I mean, 682 00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:41,983 this human to human often is passing through technology, 683 00:43:41,983 --> 00:43:47,887 also now. And I'm wondering about 684 00:43:47,887 --> 00:43:49,148 the future of 685 00:43:53,524 --> 00:43:58,847 I mean also in term of let's say user interface ~ because 686 00:43:58,847 --> 00:44:03,670 we have seen ~ graphical interfaces in the last... 687 00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:06,692 I mean always, 688 00:44:06,692 --> 00:44:13,024 I mean after the terminal then we started using graphical interface and then 689 00:44:13,076 --> 00:44:15,618 now we are going back to a chatbot. 690 00:44:15,618 --> 00:44:18,620 I don't know if going back or going forward. 691 00:44:19,932 --> 00:44:22,833 And I wonder, like, ~ in the future 692 00:44:23,033 --> 00:44:28,316 if we are all going to use a chatbot. 693 00:44:28,316 --> 00:44:34,278 So I will say, okay, send an email to Aliche and say this and the mail will be sent. 694 00:44:34,278 --> 00:44:39,020 Or if we still need the graphical interface. 695 00:44:41,408 --> 00:44:45,302 because it resembles more reality. 696 00:44:48,691 --> 00:44:52,463 are you asking me if we need ~ graphical interfaces or not for the future? 697 00:44:52,463 --> 00:44:58,286 I guess we're very dependent on screens at the moment because that 698 00:44:58,286 --> 00:45:02,469 was the easiest solution for us to develop a screen to contain our reality 699 00:45:02,469 --> 00:45:04,420 and this shaped our experience. 700 00:45:04,420 --> 00:45:09,142 It shapes how we relate to the digital world. 701 00:45:09,142 --> 00:45:13,895 screens are taking different shapes mm more and more. 702 00:45:13,895 --> 00:45:17,817 ~ so I guess it's up for 703 00:45:18,289 --> 00:45:22,461 experimentation like if there are no technical limits, 704 00:45:22,461 --> 00:45:24,292 if there are no resource constraints, 705 00:45:24,292 --> 00:45:27,834 ~ and spoiler there are, ~ I guess 706 00:45:29,575 --> 00:45:32,747 we can shift from yeah, 707 00:45:32,747 --> 00:45:37,420 maybe voice or like already you can use the glasses now to to see information, 708 00:45:37,420 --> 00:45:41,332 to talk, to register, to to to record information. 709 00:45:41,332 --> 00:45:47,275 So I guess wearables glasses are already ~ a new direction. 710 00:45:49,449 --> 00:45:54,011 again, our digital economy is very real in terms of resource consumption, 711 00:45:54,011 --> 00:45:58,332 so I guess it depends also on what is available in this 712 00:45:58,812 --> 00:46:04,124 new geopolitical yeah, 713 00:46:04,124 --> 00:46:05,974 in this new geopolitical landscape. 714 00:46:05,974 --> 00:46:09,212 so it depends on the resources, 715 00:46:09,212 --> 00:46:14,676 it depends on what kind of ~ technologies develop faster with AI. 716 00:46:16,501 --> 00:46:21,465 You know, sometimes you have many possibilities and then one takes over just 717 00:46:21,465 --> 00:46:25,288 because, you know, we thought all we all wanted buttons on a telephone 718 00:46:25,288 --> 00:46:30,263 and then mm the iPhone came out with just a screen with no buttons 719 00:46:30,263 --> 00:46:34,056 and we all switched to no buttons and then maybe something else will happen. 720 00:46:34,056 --> 00:46:38,950 So mm it will ~ finally we'll find a pair of glasses very convincing 721 00:46:38,950 --> 00:46:42,083 and we all switch to glasses. I I really don't know. 722 00:46:42,083 --> 00:46:44,755 ~ but I guess 723 00:46:44,736 --> 00:46:45,736 Yeah. 724 00:46:45,107 --> 00:46:46,107 It comes 725 00:46:45,638 --> 00:46:48,233 from marketing, it comes from resources in many, 726 00:46:48,233 --> 00:46:49,233 many ways. 727 00:46:52,190 --> 00:46:55,021 Yeah, there are no ways to discover it. 728 00:46:55,021 --> 00:47:00,003 ~ I was thinking about this question 729 00:47:00,003 --> 00:47:04,775 ~ in relation to the agentic state, 730 00:47:04,775 --> 00:47:09,606 is a quite interesting concept about the digitalization of the state. 731 00:47:06,091 --> 00:47:07,091 Mm. 732 00:47:09,606 --> 00:47:13,848 And I know that they were suggesting... 733 00:47:15,048 --> 00:47:18,879 I mean now they are experimenting with some chatbots and so I was... 734 00:47:18,879 --> 00:47:21,606 that's why I was thinking about this. 735 00:47:23,423 --> 00:47:24,423 You 736 00:47:23,593 --> 00:47:26,795 know what? ~ the the best thing that I could think of, 737 00:47:26,795 --> 00:47:32,718 like if if I have to think about how I would imagine part of the agentic state 738 00:47:32,718 --> 00:47:36,140 is me going around with ~ I don't know, 739 00:47:36,140 --> 00:47:42,423 glasses or something wearable and I see mm some issue with the streets 740 00:47:42,523 --> 00:47:46,125 and I can just take a picture and like this picture goes exactly 741 00:47:46,817 --> 00:47:49,220 To who needs to see it, to fix a road, 742 00:47:49,220 --> 00:47:53,444 to depave a way, to show that there's like too many cars and too much traffic 743 00:47:53,444 --> 00:47:55,026 in one street, not enough trees, 744 00:47:55,026 --> 00:47:58,970 to show that there needs to be more shade for people in summer. 745 00:47:58,970 --> 00:48:01,733 It goes directly to the people that need to know. 746 00:48:01,733 --> 00:48:06,538 And if it's aligned with global sustainability goals, 747 00:48:06,538 --> 00:48:08,861 with the Paris Agreement, with some 748 00:48:09,693 --> 00:48:13,825 decision making will happen automatically and some robot will come and 749 00:48:13,825 --> 00:48:17,785 fix it and like plant a tree or put set up a shade or fix the road 750 00:48:17,785 --> 00:48:21,448 or without involving so much bureaucracy and decision making, 751 00:48:21,448 --> 00:48:22,899 that thing would be super useful. 752 00:48:22,899 --> 00:48:29,311 if we agree, if we all vote that there's like some direction 753 00:48:29,311 --> 00:48:31,782 to look forward to and it's for example, 754 00:48:31,782 --> 00:48:36,584 ~ climate goals, and then if that suggestion of mine aligns with those, 755 00:48:36,584 --> 00:48:38,195 there's nobody that needs to make a decision. 756 00:48:38,843 --> 00:48:42,441 And just go straight there. There's no there's no cycling lane. 757 00:48:42,441 --> 00:48:44,305 Okay, let's put a cycling lane with trees. 758 00:48:44,305 --> 00:48:45,305 Okay, good, let's go. 759 00:48:48,137 --> 00:48:49,738 Because we will eventually get there, 760 00:48:48,826 --> 00:48:49,826 so we can 761 00:48:49,738 --> 00:48:50,738 but 762 00:48:51,099 --> 00:48:53,720 sorry, I I was thinking we will eventually get there, 763 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:56,141 but it will take lawsuits, it will take you know, 764 00:48:56,141 --> 00:48:59,974 now there's a lot of climate litigations because the more climate targets become 765 00:48:59,974 --> 00:49:04,596 stringent and then the UN ~ decides that you can sue your country 766 00:49:04,596 --> 00:49:09,649 for ~ climate target or w if there's a precedent like these Klima Signorinian 767 00:49:09,649 --> 00:49:13,351 in Switzerland that have sued their government because they're not feeling safe 768 00:49:13,351 --> 00:49:16,073 in their retirement because they're they think about climate change. 769 00:49:16,769 --> 00:49:19,201 Once a lawsuit goes through, then you will have more lawsuits. 770 00:49:19,201 --> 00:49:20,832 So eventually this will happen. 771 00:49:20,832 --> 00:49:27,546 Now they're talking about citing religious concerns against using 772 00:49:27,546 --> 00:49:30,829 AI at at work because of the encyclical of the new pope. 773 00:49:30,829 --> 00:49:33,320 ~ again, it will take, you know, 774 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:39,545 push and pull from different perspectives to re steer the this technocratic reality 775 00:49:39,545 --> 00:49:44,708 towards more human and redistributed possibilities. 776 00:49:44,708 --> 00:49:46,119 but yeah. 777 00:49:46,279 --> 00:49:52,596 I I guess I guess it could happen faster if we all decided that technology would 778 00:49:52,596 --> 00:49:55,323 just go and do it without too much bureaucracy involved. 779 00:49:59,141 --> 00:50:04,245 I think this would be awesome ~ if we are able to avoid the black box that 780 00:50:04,845 --> 00:50:10,630 I was mentioning before. And I think it's doable 781 00:50:05,225 --> 00:50:06,225 Mm. 782 00:50:10,910 --> 00:50:16,335 and I think it can be done. ~ 783 00:50:16,335 --> 00:50:21,319 the last question is if you have any message for people, 784 00:50:21,319 --> 00:50:26,983 let's say in the field, people that are thinking about designing new kind of 785 00:50:28,378 --> 00:50:31,321 system that can work with democracy. 786 00:50:31,321 --> 00:50:35,854 So could be platform, could be doing research about 787 00:50:35,854 --> 00:50:41,479 ~ how to shape our cities in a way that they more sustainable, 788 00:50:41,479 --> 00:50:46,824 like people that are putting their energies toward this. 789 00:50:48,917 --> 00:50:51,228 Yeah, I think my message stays the same. 790 00:50:51,228 --> 00:50:56,099 We really need to enlarge the perspective beyond humans and try find ways 791 00:50:56,099 --> 00:51:02,301 to engage with the the complexity of the world around 792 00:51:02,301 --> 00:51:04,121 us and the resources that we depend on, 793 00:51:04,121 --> 00:51:08,122 but also the species that we take the land from and everything 794 00:51:08,783 --> 00:51:15,504 and and re engage with the with this complexity and find solutions that satisfy 795 00:51:15,504 --> 00:51:17,725 everybody because right now we are really 796 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,900 walking towards, you know, some of the worst case scenarios in terms 797 00:51:21,900 --> 00:51:25,451 of ~ habitable earth for the future. 798 00:51:25,451 --> 00:51:30,273 So ~ I think the only way forward is to ~ engage 799 00:51:30,273 --> 00:51:33,314 in systemic thinking beyond humans. 800 00:51:33,314 --> 00:51:37,765 So that's my final message. Find ways to engage beyond humans into 801 00:51:37,765 --> 00:51:40,186 the democratic conversation. Even in like in 802 00:51:40,186 --> 00:51:42,227 the particip participatory conversation. 803 00:51:46,438 --> 00:51:50,026 Thank you Aliche. And would you like to anything else? 804 00:51:50,026 --> 00:51:53,093 If you have something that maybe we didn't touch? 805 00:51:55,468 --> 00:51:57,172 no, I think it's good thank you. 806 00:51:57,172 --> 00:52:00,752 It quite ~ mm a scattered conversation, 807 00:52:00,752 --> 00:52:02,617 but I hope some messages came out clear. 808 00:52:04,347 --> 00:52:05,979 Yeah, absolutely. Thank you again. 809 00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:08,239 Thank you.